|
There were some glaring things that stood out about the post. These inadequacies weakened your alleged guide to nothing but an overglorified discussion topic (Tag is [D]).
"I recently got promoted into diamond and I have used this build for forever,"
Your experience in using and refining this build been in a league that does not contain the top 20% of players. Platinum league players have serious weaknesses in their play. Success with builds in the Platinum league is not indicative in their overall soundness. You really have little to no idea of the overall effectiveness of a DT rush as the foundation of your PvZ play.
"I guess I'll tell you why I use this build. Let's start by taking the 3 most popular PvZ builds of today and dissecting them a little bit:. You mention 2 builds that are incredibly rare making your attempt at analyzing current trends in PvZ matchup severely lacking. I'd think you instantly novice if you had claimed Protoss generally Carrier Rush, Cannon Rush and Probe Rush PvT. You're losing all serious readers here by claiming to know what PvZ looks like on the ladder.
"And he's droning like Idra and Ret expecting to build his econ and go muta/coruptors to deal with that collosi and vr ball he's expecting.. Zerg sees you haven't expanded yet and your claims that he's "in the dark". He knows you're doing an incredibly risky build off one base so a competant zerg knows he needs army (and when he spots the council with an overlord sacrifice he can narrow it down every further).
This is better encapsulated in a post looking like --[D] DT rush in PvZ (Build Order included)-- with REPLAYS to ask for advice you haven't seen yet.
|
As stated before, the main problem here is that you can't kill the scouting drone before your Twilight Council goes down.
And that any half-competent zerg player will throw down an evolution chamber + spores as soon as he sees no stalkers AND a Twilight Council. No player actually knowing even a little bit about protoss would think "Oh, this a blink stalker rush !". The worst thing about it is that even if someone would be dumb enough to assume Blink Stalker rush, the answer is :
1°) Lair ASAP, thus overseers are available
2°) Get infestors, and infestors DO reveal DTs.
So basically you are forcing the counter to your build in any case.
|
I'm sorry but people who have no grasp on current strategies shouldn't be writing guides 
"15 hatch, 14-16 pool
Speedling Expand get killed easily by this build"
thats just plain ignorant and wrong
|
Have you guys seen the replays? ._.
Since I got school in a couple minutes I reply to some of the comments at a later time, but for now:
1. never ever did i say constant dt production. in fact i never have more than four instead i lean toward stalkers.
2. watch the replays regarding the placement. the shrine is always thrown down in the hardest to see location, or as to where i believe he would not see it; watch the two different placements on the same map and look at the zerg's spawn.
3. sack an overlord...that's nice but i don't think many people do i at the 6 min mark. in fact you dont see anything. dont blindly assume you see my tech. >_>
4. if you do happen to see my timed attack, there are still a few problems and i will find replays when i get back from school, that you all assume you have spores you win.
problem is dts one shot all your speedlings, and two shot your roaches on top of the stalkers sniping them while the lots just stand in front of helpless lings.
|
I think your really underestimating the Zerg to be aggressive. When i place my Zerglings at your ramp it's not for show, ill be poking constantly checking on the cycore and units and i can tell you now the biggest tell your tecking is going to be no setrys i'm going to start getting suspicious around 5mins if i still don't see any and what do you think is going to happen to that zealot? I'm going to make a handful of lings and start pushing if i still see no setrys your as good as dead and thats me playing standard,
|
ok first let me just say - im only bronze so my knowledge of the meta game is incomplete at best and my comments should be taken with a pinch of salt.
This build can be delayed for a fair amount of time if you use the scout drone to gas steal, thus delaying your archive and shrine, lowering the gas you have for stalkers making it safer to have an OL just sit in your base and having no sentry leaves you wide open to a baneling bust or even jsut speedlings nibbling your zealot block away then hitting your mineral line ( and revealing your tech in the process)
if that happens the only way i can see to transition out of it is a 1 gas 4gate that would get hit pretty hard by banelings if they went banes to bust you after scouting.
|
On April 04 2011 13:50 Ksyper wrote:
TL;DR
I always stop tosses trying cheesy stuff like this, I get a evo chamber ZvP very early and if I think he's going DTs or stargate I just throw down 4 spores (2 per hatch) and I've always been fine.
Also the title is kinda strange, I've never heard of a passive attack.
Why are you responding if you didn;t read? what's the point?
|
The build order doesn't even include twilight council...
DT builds can work, see MC vs July for example, but they are totally dependant on getting the DT fast and having a good idea there won't be detection up in time.
With any DT build you really need to get the 2nd gas quicker, if you don't it will simply arrive too late and zergs will simply play it safe by getting lair or an evo chamber. 1 base protoss can be countered by just having enough lings and access to detection/AA, a good zerg will simply see you move out and then get an overseer or already have a spore up. Most maps 1 spore near the expo is even enough to stop DTs from entering the main.
DT tech can be nice but I only advise using it when the map has enough distance between main and nat (so they might need 2 overseers) and if you don't get scouted too early. The build should always include a sentry or stalker after the first zealot though because 2 zealots right away is way too suspicious (indicates a tech build all the time..)
Edit: I probably shouldn't have bothered to even reply. Replying too much to bad threads like this will only cause them to burrow the actually good threads...
|
Any good zerg will have something ready for a tech rush if the protoss hasn't expanded by the 7 minute mark. I can't see this allin being that stable there are just too many ways the zerg can shut it down. You say it hits before lair, but lair timing varies from player to player. By 8 minutes a zerg can usually squeeze out an evo as well as lair if needed.
DT rush can work, but this does nothing to hide it, so is too easily read by the expansion timing. I can't imagine too many zergs being caught off by this. Not to mention the fact that if the zerg does some kind of early speedling pressure or a gas steal, this build completely crumbles.
|
To his credit, it actually did include the Twilight Council, it was just pretty well hidden behind 2 commas.
This build simply won't work. Zergs don't drone like holy hell after sac'ing an overlord at 5:00-5:30 and seeing 4 gateways. Zergs now make a whole bunch load of units instead, because if they hold the 4 gate, they win.
The Twilight Council, Dark Shrine, and the DT's themselves take such a huge hit to your resources you'll have almost 0 ground army. Lord knows there won't be adequate Sentry support.
Ultimately: if I were the Zerg under normal circumstances, and I scouted a 4 gate, I'd start massing units and 2-3 spines. And if I killed your army and your proxy pylon, and 2-4 Dark Templars were left, I'd simply Pro.Bono March into your base with my roach army, granted easy access by either killing the zealot, and or killing the 1 sentry you may have.
You have 2 choices: try to base race me where you have 2-5 DT's, my workers are going to spread out and make bases, and your workers are getting blocked at the ramp by my Roaches: whilst I have a bunch load of roaches smashing your base wide open. Or: You could try to defend my Roaches with DT's. Which gives me waaay more adequate time to get an evo chamber down, 2-3 spores, and you lose.
This may work in Platinum league where Zergs feel very blind at 5:30, and this may work in a tournament now again where a Master level player will think this build is too stupid for them to have tried, but this will NEVER work consistently.
|
such a weak all-in , i mean srsly how bad where the zergs u played against? its so easy for zerg to sacrifice overlords and scout...then as mentioned by others, if he steals ur gas ur build will just end up in a bad 4gate.
do u really think a zerg wont smell something suspicious when there are so few units with this delayed 4 gate....
4 gate is an allin, 4 gate dts is a total weird even harder all in. this build is just lol...and as we know since mastersleague came up, low diamond is the new platinum, so mb ur weird build works for bronze-plat...but seriously from bronze to plat, nearly every build can win......
if u wanna watch a real GOOD early dt tactic, then watch mc vs july from the last gsl code s final...and he used his dts just for mapcontrol and a lil harrasement and to secure his expansion...
and not for a stupid all in trying to kill the zerg
|
When i play zerg, and i dont see any Gas heavy units, i assume your going DT's or Voids. Spore crawlers will shut both down.
|
As a zerg player this is really easy to read. Just based off of your chrono timing and no expansion it either means you're going stargate or DT and both require an evo chamber.
This will also be shut down by any kind of baneling play because you will need DTs to attack the lings/banes but the banes can still blow up DTs ^^
Any zerg that sees no expansion by about 6:30-6:45 is going to stop droning and start preparing for a delayed 4 gate. With an evo chamber and just 1 spore up this shuts your rush down into nothing, and he will have an expansion up where you don't.
Personally, I think this is too easy of a read and will put you very far behind. Not a great build for upper level play.
|
If you're still on one base at 8 minutes, i'm going to scout you as soon as i get speed OL's/Overseer, and probably before that. I'm also not going to be droning. I'm on two bases, you're on one... What do I need econ for?
Also IDK about other zergs but i've been gas stealing in virtually every PvZ that I'm able since it reduces the sentry count. Let them 4gate, I can stop that. It also gets me vision of the nexus energy and if chronoboost is being spent on probes.
Also I looked at your army stats, your army is too small to actually work. 6 zealots and 4 stalkers at 8 minutes. without more stalkers/sentries roaches will be too strong.
|
Canada13392 Posts
A straight up DT rush is probably a better build order than trying to get 3 gates. If you get the DTs and rush them while denying scouting you take map control. You can kill drones and keep them in their base to defend or have a DT out on the map to force the Zerg to bring an overseer with them if they move out and spend even more gas on Overseers and less on hydras or Mutas or what have you.
This allows you to expand safely and take a natural instead of going all in and hoping they dont have detection for your DTs when you 4 gate at a late timing that makes your all in less efficient than it should be early on.
|
Someone mentioned it already, but the scouting drone should still be in the base when the twilight council goes down because no stalker comes out to kill it...
|
Any time I see that a P hasnt shown any intention of expoing or attacking by the 6:00 mark, my first reaction is to throw down an evo chamber and one spore crawler per base to counter either void rays or DTs. Most tech builds are given away by the low sentry count when I walk 2-3 lings up his ramp, so my first reaction is to get an evo chamber.
|
1 base past 5:00-6:00 means automatic spores for me. I already have the evo down (completes around 5:00 or 5:30) to get the carapace so I get my spores up very fast.
DTs or void+phoenix harass are the only options besides 4gate for 1base play, and since you are not 4gating and still on one 1 base its pretty clear what you re doing.
Also im always gas stealing vs P, to slow down their teckin or at best force a 4gate 
|
He's in the dark about my tech because although his overlord scouted 4 gates, its past 6:30, no attack yet and he has 3+ spines no to mention his lings
He's got a decent size army that can tackle any 3 basic gateway unit compositions
He's on 2 bases
The lair is about 2/3 done
The evo is done with carapace on the way
And he's droning like Idra and Ret expecting to build his econ and go muta/coruptors to deal with that collosi and vr ball he's expecting.
This is exactly wrong. If you stay on one base, I know all I have to do is survive the first push and it's game over. And as soon as you miss the 1 base 4 gate timing, every zerg is going to start preparing for some type of dt/stargate aided shenanigans. This basically relies on the zerg you're playing being absolutely oblivious to the signals you're sending with this opening.
Basically I'd say you wouldn't ever win a game with this build that you wouldn't win with a straight up 4gate.
|
The Zerg can use a sacrificial overlord to scout over the base at ~ minute 6-8 so maybe it would be best to place a pylon somewhere else on the map and hid e the tech?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
