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Hi everyone! This is my first thread I'm creating so I hope you all enjoy it.
And I know that I have greeted you all like a 13 year old girl, I think it's about time to get down to business. I'm feeling a little good tonight and I'm going to give you a guide to my favorite PvZ build. I recently got promoted into diamond and I have used this build for forever, even waaaay back in bronze league. I have been refining this build and when I use this build, I would have to say my PvZ win % is usually above 80% and I haven't lost with this build since about early February to a 3 RR. I have tested this build at small tourney against masters rank people a it has about a 65% win rate there. Also what's nice about this build is it requires little micro. I have an average of maybe about 70-90 APM when I'm laid back and about 150 when I'm perfectly serious, so it's not that hard to pull off.
I guess I'll tell you why I use this build. Let's start by taking the 3 most popular PvZ builds of today and dissecting them a little bit:
3 gate star contain: good for expoing, but could get runover if the opponents reacts properly or does something non standard (mass queen kills the vrs)
X gate robo: also a macro heavy build used to push off roaches and clear the way for an expo and transition into 2base collosi play
and the ever popular 4 gate: love or hate it, some people do against all matchups anyway.
Other alternatives usually always involve on getting on even base terms with the zerg and trying to stop the third or fourth from kicking in while you slowly warp in 3/3 deathball. 6 gate blink, vr collosi balls, etc.
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But I use a build that's geared toward hitting between the seventh and he eighth minute and never letting the zerg recover.
Anyhow, the point is this is a solid build and before I draw up a shit storm about how protoss 4 gates are OP as hell, I would like to say the build is geared to look like an incompetent 4 gate with its delayed ass timings.
It is in fact a variation of the 4 gate. BUT with my favorite unit from Brood War making an appearance.
+ Show Spoiler +
Now again, before someone screams that there is a thread already on this I'm just saying, this is my build and people are entitled to their own opinions and builds. And in the case the mods shut me down, well whatever.
Now, here's the mechanics and the rough build:
Build order
9 pylon (chrono boost probes 3 times during the build)
12 gate (wall, scout with this probe)
14 assimilator, 3 probes on gas
16 pylon
17 core
17 zealot (fill wall)
21 assimilator
23 at 100% core and 100% gas, twilight council 3 probes on gas
23 after getting 50 more gas, start warpgate research and chrono it out
25 zealot
25 2nd gate and pylon in back of base
26 zealot (or stalker take your pick)
28 dark shrine in the back of your base (cut probes)
29 3rd gate
30 4th gate (move out with this probe to set up the proxy)
30 pylon (not proxy yet)
--- Warpgate should finish when you have 2 gates done. SHOULD BE ABOUT 5:50 RIGHT NOW
30 2 stalkers and 3 gate should be finishing
34 proxy pylon a good distance from his base but not too far. this should be your fifth pylon, and as this happens, dark shrine finishes.
34 warp in your base, 1 more stalker and 2 more zealots as the 4th gate finishes, and move out with this army (SHOULD BE SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 7:10 AND 7:40
39 set up 2nd proxy pylon closer than the 1st one
39 dt at first proxy and make it move join your army.
41 3rd proxy pylon
41 warp in 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 1 dt and join your army.
HIT at about the eighth minute with 6 zealots, 4 stalkers, 2 dts with constant reinforcements. Don't forget chrono boosts on your gates. The reinforcements should be as follows:
if z as roaches or lings or 3+ spines, 1-2 more dts with 1-3 zealots
if z has overseer, 4 stalkers while keeping the dts alive
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Why this works
Why?
Let's take it from a zerg point of view:
He's in the dark about my tech because although his overlord scouted 4 gates, its past 6:30, no attack yet and he has 3+ spines no to mention his lings
He's got a decent size army that can tackle any 3 basic gateway unit compositions
He's on 2 bases
The lair is about 2/3 done
The evo is done with carapace on the way
And he's droning like Idra and Ret expecting to build his econ and go muta/coruptors to deal with that collosi and vr ball he's expecting.
Suddenly the attack hits after a good 90 sec looking like something he was fearin 2 minutes ago and sends his speedlings to surround. But suddenly everything is dead and he realizes a couple things.
There's one dt in the main, killing the drones that should have been lings/roaches
There's one dt tearing up his lings
The stalkers and dt are feasting on his roaches
There are more toss units the way
The lair is only 90% done at best if he expected the standard 4 gate and doesn't have enough gas for 2 overseers. If the lair was done, he had to have cut some spending on drones and roaches a little earlier
And the one overseer is simply going to get sniped by the stalkers.
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Now, why dts?
Well first ask, what choices does the zerg have?
15 hatch, 14-16 pool
Speedling Expand
Roach Rush
2 base muta
The first two get killed easily by this build because DTs will simply kill your workers and lings in one hit. The econ advantage has no play because of that frustrating larvae cap.
Same for RRs, instead, modify the 2nd lot to be a stalker and install an easily cancellable wall and abuse vision and chrono out a stalker and sentry. He'll be quite behind after a failed 7 RR push
I said he wasn't in a position to have a lair. Also, the spire takes forreeeevvvvveeeeeerrr.
Also, this is just theoycrafting.
I have no replays.
Jk, I don't wanna get banned yet:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/158880-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/158879-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/158879-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
BTW: All these zergs are diamond level
These were just my three most recent ones.
These builds are also viable against both terran and protoss and I have replays if you want (PM me o something)
I'm welcome to feedback too! :D
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this looks like a good build except that, how can you deny zerg the scouting of your twilight council? I mean, at this point you only have a zealot.. any good zerg will fly an overseer and see what's going on
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On April 04 2011 11:58 BreatheDeep wrote:
I guess I'll tell you why I use this build. Let's start by taking the 3 most popular PvZ builds of today and dissecting them a little bit:
3 gate star contain: good for expoing, but could get runover if the opponents reacts properly or does something non standard (mass queen kills the vrs)
X gate robo: also a macro heavy build used to push off roaches and clear the way for an expo and transition into 2base collosi play
and the ever popular 4 gate: love or hate it, some people do against all matchups anyway.
Aside from the 4 gate, none of those are popular PvZ openings atm.
3 Gate stargate contain doesn't really exist, it's an all in, not a contain. Containing doesn't do anything but delay your expo. 2 Gate stargate phoenix voidray harass into expo is fairly popular at the moment, Ace showcasing it over and over at IEM and Naniwa beating Idra with it yesterday.
X gate robo is one of the only openings that is just plain not viable in PvZ. 1 Base immortal timing attacks have been very weak ever since the roach nerf in the beta, they're very easily countered by roach speedling. XiaoT tried this twice against Sen in the games prior to the World Championship in the GSL a week ago and was crushed about as hard as you can be crushed in sc2.
There's a few main problems with the build. Mainly, that you start a dark shrine with exactly 2 zealots out.
This will be scouted literally every game by z's even in low masters, it's a huge blunder to not have an overlord in your base at that point after seeing 2 zeals at the ramp.
To do damage with this build, you have to be at his expo with him out having detection, which is unrealistic. Even if you delayed your dark shrine to get a stalker to deny scouting, it should be delayed enough for the zerg to have either an evo or a lair up.
Not to mention, this strat is entirely dependant on being able to sneak a proxy pylon somewhere on the map. If he sees dt's coming out of your base, on the majority of the map pool, he'll have enough time to reactively get detection to stop your rush.
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@Ghoststrikes: Thanks :D
Getting inside the base is the problem, how do you propose the zerg gets in?
The overseer is not viable. The build is designed to hit before lair tech fully comes into play.
@Werx: There are three problems in your arguement although 1 is situation dependant.
Also, I usually have 2 lots and a stalker when I start the shrine look at pop 26.
1. The zealots are there to deny runbys, the stalker to stall roaches, nothing suspicious. Also the two stalkers I put down at 30 are specifically designed to shut down those overlords
2. I position my shrine in the spot where his overlord is least likely to see it; notice in I believe replays 2 and 3 the slightly different placements of the shrine depending on his spawn. ^_^
3. The most important portion is where you are half right. SHOULD he scout my gates, like I said earlier it's designed to look like a stalled 4 gate. this is the situation dependent one .
Another thing I believe to be correct but correct me if I am wrong, the zerg sacks the overlord somewhere between 7:40 to 8:00 to catch a glimpse at tech tree which looks like a 4gate potentially going 6gate blink if he sees the council. This attack is designed to be a semi all-in rolling into the zerg base at about 7:50. The evo ges put down at about 7:30 and doesn't finish until about 8:20?
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Also,
@Ghoststrikes: I asked somepeople what the thought when they scouted the build. Only one thought dts. One thought high temp, chargelot; another thought weirdly timed +2 attack timed push, but most of them said 5/6 gate blink
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Let me start by saying I play zerg at a high diamond level and this wouldn't work.
A few problems:
1) 4 gate dt sounds silly. I think the whole build would work better with 3 gates, as you can't support constant production out of 4 especially if you're teching.
2) You can try to deny scouting, but if you're on one base that long I will have spores and lings, which will be able to defend any one base toss. ( Protoss hide blink/dt/air which are easily countered by this).
3) You cannot prevent me from seeing your gases and the units that kill the overlord. That will let me know you are hiding either air/dts (both gas heavy) and I will make spores.
4) You are wrong that zergs sac an overlord at 7 min to see the tech tree. Against one base, it will be much earlier.
5) You are completely misinformed about the 3 most common PvZ strategies.
6) I won't be making 3 spines. More like 2 spines and if the 4 gate is delayed I"ll be making spores. My economy is way ahead of yours and I know I can afford it.
7) "And he's droning like Idra and Ret expecting to build his econ and go muta/coruptors to deal with that collosi and vr ball he's expecting." This is completely wrong. No good zerg will drone like crazy if you're on one base.
8) "Well first ask, what choices does the zerg have?
15 hatch, 14-16 pool
Speedling Expand
Roach Rush
2 base muta" I don't see where you've gotten the idea that the first 2 will lose to your build.
Not to mention, this build utterly fails if he has a baneling nest, which starting to become popular against toss.
All in all I think it's very cheesy and would only work against greedy opponents who don't scout, or don't like banelings.
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And to add, on one base there is no such thing as a void ray collossi death ball. It is more like a single voidray, a single collossi, and zealots.
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TL;DR
I always stop tosses trying cheesy stuff like this, I get a evo chamber ZvP very early and if I think he's going DTs or stargate I just throw down 4 spores (2 per hatch) and I've always been fine.
Also the title is kinda strange, I've never heard of a passive attack.
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1. There is a massive flaw in what you just stated. A good zerg with infact have his lair up and running by the time this hits. Not to mention the typical zerg is going to throw down spores and build an overseer on top of those spores if you see a 4 gate that doesn't actually attack when it's supposed to. (because opening with DT's isn't something new.)
2.15 hatch/ 14 pool/ Speedling can defend this no problem. Then probably counter push you and you die. Especially if I scout you with one base. I'm going to cut drones, defend and then roll you over and giggle.
3.The ovie scout will infact see all of this, not to mention the lings that poke up the ramp every 30 seconds or so. Also we generally will have that drone we send into your base alive until about 4:30 min mark. Which will spot the dt shrine.
4. Should probably state that this is a all-in and has no follow up early in the post.
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The Dark Templar is my favorite Protoss ground unit. Thank you so much for making a strategic build using DTs that doesn't involve DT rushing! I can't wait to try out this build.
User was warned for this post
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On April 04 2011 14:06 CoSyN wrote:
The Dark Templar is my favorite Protoss ground unit. Thank you so much for making a strategic build using DTs that doesn't involve DT rushing! I can't wait to try out this build.
*facepalm* This is a dt rush...
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On April 04 2011 14:06 Killswitch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 14:06 CoSyN wrote:
The Dark Templar is my favorite Protoss ground unit. Thank you so much for making a strategic build using DTs that doesn't involve DT rushing! I can't wait to try out this build. *facepalm* This is a dt rush...
It's 8 mins mark, get over it.
If he want to 4 gates like PvP, it just take 6 mins.
User was warned for this post
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Problem with this build is warp gate research is too late, you can't know for sure Zerg is going all-in or 2 bases banelings burst, and you don't have enough sentries to block the ramp again zerg with heavy pressure.
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I don't think it's wise to rely on surprising your opponents with hidden tech to win a game. It might be good to have in your arsenal, but it is just risky because it only works if your opponent screws up (with scouting or just being prepared for different strategies).
I believe you are wrong that your build would beat a good early roach attack. I would need replays of someone beating this to be convinced. If I read it right you don't get any sentires, which are important for forcefielding your ramp to cut a roach force in half.
The build also requires so much gas. 4 gates with DTs just seems impossible to transition out of if your attack fails or your build is scouted.
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On April 04 2011 14:16 hitman133 wrote:
Problem with this build is warp gate research is too late, you can't know for sure Zerg is going all-in or 2 bases banelings burst, and you don't have enough sentries to block the ramp again zerg with heavy pressure.
Yeah, the problem is definitely that Zerg will allin against your allin, not the fact that the build itself is an allin...
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On April 04 2011 13:16 BreatheDeep wrote:
Another thing I believe to be correct but correct me if I am wrong, the zerg sacks the overlord somewhere between 7:40 to 8:00 to catch a glimpse at tech tree which looks like a 4gate potentially going 6gate blink if he sees the council. This attack is designed to be a semi all-in rolling into the zerg base at about 7:50. The evo ges put down at about 7:30 and doesn't finish until about 8:20? First of all, Zergs will sac their ovy around 5:30-6:00 to check for the 4-gate. However, against you, this won't be necessary as I could keep my scouting drone alive to scout everything you do. You build a twilight council while having only 2 zealots -- that means the initial scouting drone never actually has to leave your base and will see this going down.
Second, 6gate blink??? You have one base, throw down a super early twilight council, and you think Zergs believe you are going 6gate blink?! This is so absurd it makes you look like a troll. Not only can't you support 6 gates on 1 base, but a blink build would have an earlier stalker than your build.
As I see it, your build is an all-in that relies on your opponent being terrible at scouting and playing stupidly.
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I would say my 1 base mothership+carrier build is better than this even after the nerf.
no-one starts droning off 2 bases when you don't expand when they scout 3 or more gateways. they will keep their 2 mineral line advantage until they can scout you. as soon as lair hits you are dead.
all the builds you listed are not standard and are pretty much horrible builds.
you can't 6 gate blink or deathball off 1 base you will mine out before you get more than 1 colossus and 1 voidray.
as soon as zerg sees 2 zealot they know you are teching, they would expect air since thats way more powerful than this but the reaction is pretty much the same, when they don't see you expanding or attacking at 6-7 mins, either get lair fast or get some spores.
as for zerg's point of view. have you ever even played zerg? holy... dt kills zerglings in 1 hit? wow!!!! now if each dt kills 10 lings you actually be even in resource used, not to mention gas on 1 base is worth like 3x as much as minerals so you would need to kill 20 lings with each dt to make it even. hahahahahaha have fun sitting there slicing lings all day and not getting anywhere. lair timing is about 8 min mark and will be up if zerg seen no chrono on warptech. roach ling will beat this even if your dts stay invisible until lair is up, everything but dts will die.
this is also not viable against toss because you will die to the 4 gate before you get dts. this is ok against terran if you do it correctly with a timed expo and tech switch.
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two zealots when taking both gases is EXTREMELY suspicious, even if you make 4 gates. DT builds just seem obvious, as you keep poking with lings they simply don't have a massive unit count.
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There are so many things wrong with this post in afraid to post in fear of bannage.
I mean the bottom line besides the impossibility of hiding this build is the fact that the risk/reward factor just isn't there. You are going to take a HUGE risk that the zerg player wont have a quick enough lair(which wont happen too often even in the masters league). And the reward might be a few drone kills. And the downside is that if he does have a lair, it will be impossible for u to get an expo up without a high sentry count. Meaning the zerg can deny ur nat while taking the map.
Its great seeing more p's experiment with dt's as i think they have an untapped potential, but simply relying on a strategy not to be scouted and using that the foundation of your play is not healthy for your sc2 development.
p.s. as a random player, ur POV of the zerg possibilities is very wrong. The only strength i can see in your build is that you can delay a lair, but once a zerg doesnt see any sort of expo plan coming they will want to pump queens and lair/overseer.
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Maybe a good opening, but if it doesn't work you are almost dead. You dont have an expo, since you wasted your money making reinforcement. Dont even have a forge, and if you have it, you will make canons, so zerg will make his 3rd very easy. Also, since you got DT, your tech-tree is far away from colossi.. so it becomes hard to play a good mid-game.
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There were some glaring things that stood out about the post. These inadequacies weakened your alleged guide to nothing but an overglorified discussion topic (Tag is [D]).
"I recently got promoted into diamond and I have used this build for forever,"
Your experience in using and refining this build been in a league that does not contain the top 20% of players. Platinum league players have serious weaknesses in their play. Success with builds in the Platinum league is not indicative in their overall soundness. You really have little to no idea of the overall effectiveness of a DT rush as the foundation of your PvZ play.
"I guess I'll tell you why I use this build. Let's start by taking the 3 most popular PvZ builds of today and dissecting them a little bit:. You mention 2 builds that are incredibly rare making your attempt at analyzing current trends in PvZ matchup severely lacking. I'd think you instantly novice if you had claimed Protoss generally Carrier Rush, Cannon Rush and Probe Rush PvT. You're losing all serious readers here by claiming to know what PvZ looks like on the ladder.
"And he's droning like Idra and Ret expecting to build his econ and go muta/coruptors to deal with that collosi and vr ball he's expecting.. Zerg sees you haven't expanded yet and your claims that he's "in the dark". He knows you're doing an incredibly risky build off one base so a competant zerg knows he needs army (and when he spots the council with an overlord sacrifice he can narrow it down every further).
This is better encapsulated in a post looking like --[D] DT rush in PvZ (Build Order included)-- with REPLAYS to ask for advice you haven't seen yet.
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As stated before, the main problem here is that you can't kill the scouting drone before your Twilight Council goes down.
And that any half-competent zerg player will throw down an evolution chamber + spores as soon as he sees no stalkers AND a Twilight Council. No player actually knowing even a little bit about protoss would think "Oh, this a blink stalker rush !". The worst thing about it is that even if someone would be dumb enough to assume Blink Stalker rush, the answer is :
1°) Lair ASAP, thus overseers are available
2°) Get infestors, and infestors DO reveal DTs.
So basically you are forcing the counter to your build in any case.
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I'm sorry but people who have no grasp on current strategies shouldn't be writing guides 
"15 hatch, 14-16 pool
Speedling Expand get killed easily by this build"
thats just plain ignorant and wrong
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Have you guys seen the replays? ._.
Since I got school in a couple minutes I reply to some of the comments at a later time, but for now:
1. never ever did i say constant dt production. in fact i never have more than four instead i lean toward stalkers.
2. watch the replays regarding the placement. the shrine is always thrown down in the hardest to see location, or as to where i believe he would not see it; watch the two different placements on the same map and look at the zerg's spawn.
3. sack an overlord...that's nice but i don't think many people do i at the 6 min mark. in fact you dont see anything. dont blindly assume you see my tech. >_>
4. if you do happen to see my timed attack, there are still a few problems and i will find replays when i get back from school, that you all assume you have spores you win.
problem is dts one shot all your speedlings, and two shot your roaches on top of the stalkers sniping them while the lots just stand in front of helpless lings.
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I think your really underestimating the Zerg to be aggressive. When i place my Zerglings at your ramp it's not for show, ill be poking constantly checking on the cycore and units and i can tell you now the biggest tell your tecking is going to be no setrys i'm going to start getting suspicious around 5mins if i still don't see any and what do you think is going to happen to that zealot? I'm going to make a handful of lings and start pushing if i still see no setrys your as good as dead and thats me playing standard,
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ok first let me just say - im only bronze so my knowledge of the meta game is incomplete at best and my comments should be taken with a pinch of salt.
This build can be delayed for a fair amount of time if you use the scout drone to gas steal, thus delaying your archive and shrine, lowering the gas you have for stalkers making it safer to have an OL just sit in your base and having no sentry leaves you wide open to a baneling bust or even jsut speedlings nibbling your zealot block away then hitting your mineral line ( and revealing your tech in the process)
if that happens the only way i can see to transition out of it is a 1 gas 4gate that would get hit pretty hard by banelings if they went banes to bust you after scouting.
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On April 04 2011 13:50 Ksyper wrote:
TL;DR
I always stop tosses trying cheesy stuff like this, I get a evo chamber ZvP very early and if I think he's going DTs or stargate I just throw down 4 spores (2 per hatch) and I've always been fine.
Also the title is kinda strange, I've never heard of a passive attack.
Why are you responding if you didn;t read? what's the point?
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The build order doesn't even include twilight council...
DT builds can work, see MC vs July for example, but they are totally dependant on getting the DT fast and having a good idea there won't be detection up in time.
With any DT build you really need to get the 2nd gas quicker, if you don't it will simply arrive too late and zergs will simply play it safe by getting lair or an evo chamber. 1 base protoss can be countered by just having enough lings and access to detection/AA, a good zerg will simply see you move out and then get an overseer or already have a spore up. Most maps 1 spore near the expo is even enough to stop DTs from entering the main.
DT tech can be nice but I only advise using it when the map has enough distance between main and nat (so they might need 2 overseers) and if you don't get scouted too early. The build should always include a sentry or stalker after the first zealot though because 2 zealots right away is way too suspicious (indicates a tech build all the time..)
Edit: I probably shouldn't have bothered to even reply. Replying too much to bad threads like this will only cause them to burrow the actually good threads...
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Any good zerg will have something ready for a tech rush if the protoss hasn't expanded by the 7 minute mark. I can't see this allin being that stable there are just too many ways the zerg can shut it down. You say it hits before lair, but lair timing varies from player to player. By 8 minutes a zerg can usually squeeze out an evo as well as lair if needed.
DT rush can work, but this does nothing to hide it, so is too easily read by the expansion timing. I can't imagine too many zergs being caught off by this. Not to mention the fact that if the zerg does some kind of early speedling pressure or a gas steal, this build completely crumbles.
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To his credit, it actually did include the Twilight Council, it was just pretty well hidden behind 2 commas.
This build simply won't work. Zergs don't drone like holy hell after sac'ing an overlord at 5:00-5:30 and seeing 4 gateways. Zergs now make a whole bunch load of units instead, because if they hold the 4 gate, they win.
The Twilight Council, Dark Shrine, and the DT's themselves take such a huge hit to your resources you'll have almost 0 ground army. Lord knows there won't be adequate Sentry support.
Ultimately: if I were the Zerg under normal circumstances, and I scouted a 4 gate, I'd start massing units and 2-3 spines. And if I killed your army and your proxy pylon, and 2-4 Dark Templars were left, I'd simply Pro.Bono March into your base with my roach army, granted easy access by either killing the zealot, and or killing the 1 sentry you may have.
You have 2 choices: try to base race me where you have 2-5 DT's, my workers are going to spread out and make bases, and your workers are getting blocked at the ramp by my Roaches: whilst I have a bunch load of roaches smashing your base wide open. Or: You could try to defend my Roaches with DT's. Which gives me waaay more adequate time to get an evo chamber down, 2-3 spores, and you lose.
This may work in Platinum league where Zergs feel very blind at 5:30, and this may work in a tournament now again where a Master level player will think this build is too stupid for them to have tried, but this will NEVER work consistently.
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such a weak all-in , i mean srsly how bad where the zergs u played against? its so easy for zerg to sacrifice overlords and scout...then as mentioned by others, if he steals ur gas ur build will just end up in a bad 4gate.
do u really think a zerg wont smell something suspicious when there are so few units with this delayed 4 gate....
4 gate is an allin, 4 gate dts is a total weird even harder all in. this build is just lol...and as we know since mastersleague came up, low diamond is the new platinum, so mb ur weird build works for bronze-plat...but seriously from bronze to plat, nearly every build can win......
if u wanna watch a real GOOD early dt tactic, then watch mc vs july from the last gsl code s final...and he used his dts just for mapcontrol and a lil harrasement and to secure his expansion...
and not for a stupid all in trying to kill the zerg
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When i play zerg, and i dont see any Gas heavy units, i assume your going DT's or Voids. Spore crawlers will shut both down.
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As a zerg player this is really easy to read. Just based off of your chrono timing and no expansion it either means you're going stargate or DT and both require an evo chamber.
This will also be shut down by any kind of baneling play because you will need DTs to attack the lings/banes but the banes can still blow up DTs ^^
Any zerg that sees no expansion by about 6:30-6:45 is going to stop droning and start preparing for a delayed 4 gate. With an evo chamber and just 1 spore up this shuts your rush down into nothing, and he will have an expansion up where you don't.
Personally, I think this is too easy of a read and will put you very far behind. Not a great build for upper level play.
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If you're still on one base at 8 minutes, i'm going to scout you as soon as i get speed OL's/Overseer, and probably before that. I'm also not going to be droning. I'm on two bases, you're on one... What do I need econ for?
Also IDK about other zergs but i've been gas stealing in virtually every PvZ that I'm able since it reduces the sentry count. Let them 4gate, I can stop that. It also gets me vision of the nexus energy and if chronoboost is being spent on probes.
Also I looked at your army stats, your army is too small to actually work. 6 zealots and 4 stalkers at 8 minutes. without more stalkers/sentries roaches will be too strong.
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Canada13392 Posts
A straight up DT rush is probably a better build order than trying to get 3 gates. If you get the DTs and rush them while denying scouting you take map control. You can kill drones and keep them in their base to defend or have a DT out on the map to force the Zerg to bring an overseer with them if they move out and spend even more gas on Overseers and less on hydras or Mutas or what have you.
This allows you to expand safely and take a natural instead of going all in and hoping they dont have detection for your DTs when you 4 gate at a late timing that makes your all in less efficient than it should be early on.
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Someone mentioned it already, but the scouting drone should still be in the base when the twilight council goes down because no stalker comes out to kill it...
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Any time I see that a P hasnt shown any intention of expoing or attacking by the 6:00 mark, my first reaction is to throw down an evo chamber and one spore crawler per base to counter either void rays or DTs. Most tech builds are given away by the low sentry count when I walk 2-3 lings up his ramp, so my first reaction is to get an evo chamber.
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1 base past 5:00-6:00 means automatic spores for me. I already have the evo down (completes around 5:00 or 5:30) to get the carapace so I get my spores up very fast.
DTs or void+phoenix harass are the only options besides 4gate for 1base play, and since you are not 4gating and still on one 1 base its pretty clear what you re doing.
Also im always gas stealing vs P, to slow down their teckin or at best force a 4gate 
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He's in the dark about my tech because although his overlord scouted 4 gates, its past 6:30, no attack yet and he has 3+ spines no to mention his lings
He's got a decent size army that can tackle any 3 basic gateway unit compositions
He's on 2 bases
The lair is about 2/3 done
The evo is done with carapace on the way
And he's droning like Idra and Ret expecting to build his econ and go muta/coruptors to deal with that collosi and vr ball he's expecting.
This is exactly wrong. If you stay on one base, I know all I have to do is survive the first push and it's game over. And as soon as you miss the 1 base 4 gate timing, every zerg is going to start preparing for some type of dt/stargate aided shenanigans. This basically relies on the zerg you're playing being absolutely oblivious to the signals you're sending with this opening.
Basically I'd say you wouldn't ever win a game with this build that you wouldn't win with a straight up 4gate.
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The Zerg can use a sacrificial overlord to scout over the base at ~ minute 6-8 so maybe it would be best to place a pylon somewhere else on the map and hid e the tech?
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This build has sooo many flaws that you will figure out by the time you play this against a decent master league zerg player because any decent master league zerg will do:
1.) Initial drone scout spots 2 zealots blocking the ramp, giving suspicious thoughts and goes for either fast evo/lair to hold off any 1 base toss attack.
2.) Overload "will" fly over even if it is a sacrifice to check and see if your teching or not. No matter how much you want to deny saying "i can deny these overloads", it will get the zerg players to stop droning and quickly get spores and crawelers with units to hold off any sorts of rushes.
3.) See double gas getting mined. The placement of the shrine really doesnt matter if zerg knows your teching into something. Their point of sacrificing the overload and doing drone scout in 4 minute mark is to see if your going to do all-in or pressure or tech and all-in. Don't assume every zerg will "drone" hard.
DT openings are like risking your game. Trust me. When i was playing protoss the start of season 1, I did tons of DT rush builds. I know your timings are like accurate for what any player below master will do, but any decent zerg will take a glimpse and play safe by being sure to get enough defence towers to stop your all-in off 1 base.
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A drone can get past a zealot wall easily and if there's no stalker/sentry popped he's going to see everything
all it takes is for the drone to click on a mineral patch inside your base and the zealot will get 1 hit off as he passes through him
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Biggest problem with this build is higher level players are going to suspect dts just by poking the front and thats all, i know i would.
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Biggest problem with this build is that he build a twilight council while the scouting drones is still in his base.
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On April 04 2011 23:09 Jeffbelittle wrote:
To his credit, it actually did include the Twilight Council, it was just pretty well hidden behind 2 commas.
This build simply won't work. Zergs don't drone like holy hell after sac'ing an overlord at 5:00-5:30 and seeing 4 gateways. Zergs now make a whole bunch load of units instead, because if they hold the 4 gate, they win.
The Twilight Council, Dark Shrine, and the DT's themselves take such a huge hit to your resources you'll have almost 0 ground army. Lord knows there won't be adequate Sentry support.
Ultimately: if I were the Zerg under normal circumstances, and I scouted a 4 gate, I'd start massing units and 2-3 spines. And if I killed your army and your proxy pylon, and 2-4 Dark Templars were left, I'd simply Pro.Bono March into your base with my roach army, granted easy access by either killing the zealot, and or killing the 1 sentry you may have.
You have 2 choices: try to base race me where you have 2-5 DT's, my workers are going to spread out and make bases, and your workers are getting blocked at the ramp by my Roaches: whilst I have a bunch load of roaches smashing your base wide open. Or: You could try to defend my Roaches with DT's. Which gives me waaay more adequate time to get an evo chamber down, 2-3 spores, and you lose.
This may work in Platinum league where Zergs feel very blind at 5:30, and this may work in a tournament now again where a Master level player will think this build is too stupid for them to have tried, but this will NEVER work consistently.
Umm... no. I think the point of this build is that if you don't have detection when the attack hits, then you die. You are going to lose a base trade if dts are involved, no question.
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[/QUOTE]
Umm... no. I think the point of this build is that if you don't have detection when the attack hits, then you die. You are going to lose a base trade if dts are involved, no question. [/QUOTE]
The point of his statement is, any zerg who is not stupid enough that double gas goes quickly and doesnt see good number of sentries or stalkers warped in around 5 minute mark, should be able to identify protoss is going 1 base tech rush. Base trade is not the point he is making. And even if base trade occurs, any good zerg who doesn't all-in off one base should be able to get enough detections to stop dt/void/tech rush when they eliminate protoss ground army. His point is that any good zerg will be able to react by getting evo chamber up when they realize protoss is being a douche and blocks off the wall and gets double gas.
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United States15275 Posts
I'm sorry, but the major flaws of your build have already been pointed out by nearly everybody here. The success of your build should not rely on the relative ignorance of your opponent in relations to timings and scouting.
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Ok, I didn't read the OP as thoroughly as I should have. If you can beat me with this build, OP, I will reopen this thread. I'll even "15 hatch, 14-16 pool" or "Speedling Expand" to give you the edge.
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EPT
