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On November 05 2004 14:22 LaptopLegacy wrote:It never is, for religious people.  I know. Lots of other people before me came to the conclusion that the disproval of some ancient myths scrabbled down on clay tablets by Hebrew goatherders was actually not that difficult at all.
i dont think you read what i said, respond to my points, not a couple of lines that have nothing to do with what i said.
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Kaotu: you clearly didn't read the thread. If something is infinite(ie: the universe) it is unbounded. That means it lacks a beginning and an end. Thus if the universe is infinite it needs no creater. That has nothing to do with big bang or anything like that, we never even brought up big bang theory. That isn't impossible to understand. Maybe for you it is 
A 2D object described a 3D object like Prof Frink did in the Simpsons. Or if you have a really smart 2D object, he will most definitely draw a diagram to demonstrate how the 3D object has width, and a very very very smart 2D object will explain that the 3D object adds a line prependicular to each of its sides. The same reason us as 3Ds can define a Hypercube, or an 8th dimensional hyber cube. That argument was WEAK.
We aren't trying to disprove god, we are arguing the possibility that god is not an omnipotent creater but perhaps was spawned at the same time as the universe(being infinite, that is they were both the 1st things in existance, though there is no start) and instead a maker, a molder, a scuptor of the worlds. Perhaps it means he doesn't exist? Perhaps it means he exists in a different form than we currently believe him to? We never tried to disprove him, just gave out interpretation based on the discussion at hand.
You clearly didn't read the thread or lacked the intelligence to comprehend the discussion. Sorry if that offends you, but it seems to be truth if you in fact did read the thread.
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On November 05 2004 01:16 LaptopLegacy wrote:
There are a lot more problems with the concept of omnipotence, especially in combination with omniscience.
If a being is omnisciencient and knows all that will happen, he is automatically bound to that course for the future. This means his omnipotence is compromised.
Also, i'd like to remind you of Epicurus' riddle:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
the idea of morality wasn't created by god...
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I agree travis. But yours is not the christian pov.
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On November 05 2004 13:14 Element)FrEaK wrote:
You forgot one part though.
If the universe is indeed finite, that leaves the possibility for expansion further than the universe itself. A megaverse if you will.
Anything finite can have expansion, the only physical entity without expansion is infinite.
We'll assume there is no megaverse at the moment since we have explored far too far with telescopes with no sign of a curve in the universe for it to be assumed that it is spherical.
Also, if it turns out there is no omnipotent being, then the next step down is some sort of observer, controller if you will. Mathematics perfectly fits this place.
My conclusion is an infinitely large, flat, universe(there is more evidence that suggests an infinite universe and than a finite one) with a governing body of mathematics. No dieties needed.
EDIT: Do you agree with that conclusion bigballs?
Well, I really dont know much about the universe expanding at an increasing rate/slowing down area to make an educated decision on the universe size.
However, i am a believer in chaos theory/determinism, and I agree that the governing body is math. As for deities, there really isnt much need for them. I dont really know what to make of the big bang though, mathematics and science cant explain creating matter out of energy. I guess if i knew more about the whole anti matter field I could say more about the existence of deities.
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no, my response wasn't really to the thread
I suppose more against the few posts that I immediately saw which slammed God quite a bit.
I really dont care how you view my intelligence, nor if you choose to believe in w/e you believe in
When all is said and done, and you're dead, who really remembers you? People that no one will remember. as Paul says, "if there is no God, let us eat, drink, and be merry!", meaning, what the heck does life matter if there is no God? Honestly, nothing at all. And no argument you have can convince me otherwise.
"For God chose the foolish things of this world to shame the wise"
As to the topic of this thread... I know I'm just going with everything you've said about me, but I really don't think you have an argument. If you are actually trying to understand God, you would have to read the Bible (and I'm not trying to convert you, or heck maybe you already believe, but thats just the only answer). This talk really doesn't have much to do with the God of the bible, but more of a theoretical God that we assume doesn't exist.
I am sure there are several members here more intelligent than me, but I'm intelligent enough to understand what you're saying, and have no real reponse besides that this is kind of a waste of time, in my personal opinion.
But enjoy the discussion, consider it as I had never said anything.
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On November 05 2004 14:55 Kaotu wrote:
no, my response wasn't really to the thread
I suppose more against the few posts that I immediately saw which slammed God quite a bit.
I really dont care how you view my intelligence, nor if you choose to believe in w/e you believe in
When all is said and done, and you're dead, who really remembers you? People that no one will remember. as Paul says, "if there is no God, let us eat, drink, and be merry!", meaning, what the heck does life matter if there is no God? Honestly, nothing at all. And no argument you have can convince me otherwise.
"For God chose the foolish things of this world to shame the wise"
As to the topic of this thread... I know I'm just going with everything you've said about me, but I really don't think you have an argument. If you are actually trying to understand God, you would have to read the Bible (and I'm not trying to convert you, or heck maybe you already believe, but thats just the only answer). This talk really doesn't have much to do with the God of the bible, but more of a theoretical God that we assume doesn't exist.
I am sure there are several members here more intelligent than me, but I'm intelligent enough to understand what you're saying, and have no real reponse besides that this is kind of a waste of time, in my personal opinion.
But enjoy the discussion, consider it as I had never said anything.
Well, this can bring in some really deep philosophical debates. You mentioned "what the heck does life matter if there is no God?"
First off, what is life? Can you define it? Cause I sure as hell cant.
If you want to, I guess you could describe it as organisms that reproduce, grow, adapt to their environments, and respond to stimuli, but what are the defining characteristics of these things? surely there must be SOMETHING that can sum up a simple term such as "life" better than 4 properties. These properties dont really imply anything about purpose aside from our inter-relationship with other organisms, so I guess a better definition of life is required.
Secondly, if you meant human life (which you probably did), why does there have to be a god to have a meaning? And, just because there is an afterlife and a creater all of a sudden meaning comes into play? So if we die and there is no heaven our lives mean absolutely nothing? I dont really agree with this sort of line of thinking.
why cant we look at something like meaning in terms of the betterment of society, the betterment of technology, our human progress, etc. We can come up with answers to questions like "why are we here?", and "what is our purpose?", just not in relation to a god.
Why are we here? Because we evolved.
What is our purpose? This one might be a little bit harder. If there WERE a god, what would our purpose be then?
Just some rambling, incoherent thoughts I had when I saw the word life in your post.
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On November 05 2004 15:05 BigBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2004 14:55 Kaotu wrote:
no, my response wasn't really to the thread
I suppose more against the few posts that I immediately saw which slammed God quite a bit.
I really dont care how you view my intelligence, nor if you choose to believe in w/e you believe in
When all is said and done, and you're dead, who really remembers you? People that no one will remember. as Paul says, "if there is no God, let us eat, drink, and be merry!", meaning, what the heck does life matter if there is no God? Honestly, nothing at all. And no argument you have can convince me otherwise.
"For God chose the foolish things of this world to shame the wise"
As to the topic of this thread... I know I'm just going with everything you've said about me, but I really don't think you have an argument. If you are actually trying to understand God, you would have to read the Bible (and I'm not trying to convert you, or heck maybe you already believe, but thats just the only answer). This talk really doesn't have much to do with the God of the bible, but more of a theoretical God that we assume doesn't exist.
I am sure there are several members here more intelligent than me, but I'm intelligent enough to understand what you're saying, and have no real reponse besides that this is kind of a waste of time, in my personal opinion.
But enjoy the discussion, consider it as I had never said anything. Well, this can bring in some really deep philosophical debates. You mentioned "what the heck does life matter if there is no God?" First off, what is life? Can you define it? Cause I sure as hell cant. If you want to, I guess you could describe it as organisms that reproduce, grow, adapt to their environments, and respond to stimuli, but what are the defining characteristics of these things? surely there must be SOMETHING that can sum up a simple term such as "life" better than 4 properties. These properties dont really imply anything about purpose aside from our inter-relationship with other organisms, so I guess a better definition of life is required. Secondly, if you meant human life (which you probably did), why does there have to be a god to have a meaning? And, just because there is an afterlife and a creater all of a sudden meaning comes into play? So if we die and there is no heaven our lives mean absolutely nothing? I dont really agree with this sort of line of thinking. why cant we look at something like meaning in terms of the betterment of society, the betterment of technology, our human progress, etc. We can come up with answers to questions like "why are we here?", and "what is our purpose?", just not in relation to a god. Why are we here? Because we evolved. What is our purpose? This one might be a little bit harder. If there WERE a god, what would our purpose be then? Just some rambling, incoherent thoughts I had when I saw the word life in your post.
Why can't this be our purpose? Because, inevitably, everything around us dies, and life itself will cease to exist sooner or later. All things we can do even to 'better society' really serve no point without God, because in the end all things mean nothing (when there is no life left, what memory is left of our existence?)
edit: Forgot to answer the part about with God. Well, the purpose is love, as lame as that might sound. If we assume the Bible is the truth, then God created us to love us, not because he actually needed us to do something. We sinned etc etc, but the point is to be united with God in love (the one thing God needs?) so, heaven is where we enter infinite, where our purpose becomes clear, and until then our purpose is to get there.
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So what youre saying is, if there is a god, then our purpose is to live, then exist in heaven so we can remember what happens on earth. What's the point of that? What kind of meaning does THAT have?
Why does there even have to be meaning? When there is no end to life, how can we even appreciate living?
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Remembering what happens on earth has nothing to do with heaven. And read my edit...
There doesn't have to be meaning, I suppose. Isn't that the whole idea behind being agnostic or atheist? There is no 'greater purpose'... well, if thats what you believe, then why are we even talking about it?
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Cause id like to hear your side of it. And being agnostic, id like to think I keep a slightly open mind about religion
edit: i cant stand the : ] smiley. It looks like a fucking clown nose. Im done with smileys.
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I once talked to a priest about values. We had the same values. He believed god created us to have those values. I said that the values we have, have evolved according to darwins theory. We parted friends but in disagreement. I wish I was the priest.
Time to drown my feelings in alcohol and pussy.
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Well, I'm glad. I like to keep an open mind, and listen to what people say to disprove God. I don't think there's a lot of 'faith' involved with religious people who just believe what they want to believe, and then cover their ears for the rest...
Anyway, the point of heaven? I guess we find out when we get there O_O. I really don't know the right answer, so I won't try to give it. Its described as being uncomprehinsible in the bible, which yes I can understand the frustration when people basically say 'you can't comprehend it, so its clearly real'. But, I guess that the ultimate point is to be with God, to have that unity like there is between the father and the son (in the trinity, although I assume you know what I'm talking about anyway).
Biblically, the only pain of the cross that Jesus found unbearable was separation from God... he still endured it, but it was the only pain among the physical abuse and being betrayed by even his disciples that he cried out against on the cross. Why do I say this? Well, I suppose that such unity is what we will have in heaven, to really know God like this and feel no seperation etc. To be able to see his face. For infinite heh....
Heaven is 'paradise', it is the 'crown that lasts forever', etc. I think the crown is the best example... where Paul compares us to runners. Runners run to win the race, and thus win a crown that will not last. In life, all the things we pursue that as I said will not last. But we run (the spiritual battle, getting to heaven, etc) to earn a crown that lasts forever, heaven. So... Like I said, I don't have 'the answer', but this is the best that I can do.
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.... its free will do whatever you want its your life live it he sets you on earth and lets you live out your life yea i repeated here it goes again.....he set you on this earth and gave you free will he knew adam and eve would eat that apple but he didnt stop them why? free will after that...he let humans destroy each other which he saved them from later why did they hurt each other and not obey god? free will
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Well, I wouldnt try to disprove god, or prove god for that matter, cause I cant, and neither can anyone else at this point.
However, that's not really the aim of this discussion. The aim of this discussion was to show that EITHER there is no free will or there is no omnipotent being. Well, I suppose omnipotent is the wrong word there, there is no OMNISCIENT being. There could be an all powerful being that is not omniscient.
Regardless, supposing no free will, our lives are predetermined and they dont really have any meaning at all.
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I don't understand why there is no omniscient being. The fact that an omniscient being could know everything before it happens doesn't mean that we wouldn't have free will, does it? I mean honestly, how does that interfere? And I understand how it could be thought to, or how it makes more sense that it does, but its not as if its proven theoretically that an omniscient being = no free will.
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Well, suppose there is an omniscient being.
If you believe in chaos theory, then everything can be predicted knowing all the initial conditions. It makes sense doesnt it? If one knew your hormone levels, everything you've been taught over the years, the climate, and any other influencing factors and how they influenced you, they could basically write your post for you word by word.
So now, if everything can be predicted, then there really isnt any free will. How can there be free will when everything is basically predetermined? If im destined to do something and I have no control over that, then I dont really have any choice in the matter do I? If my life can be written down before it happens by an omniscient source, do i really have any choice in my life?
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Hmm I should rework what I just said, I didn't really think through what you said, sorry.
I suppose you have to consider motive, rather than ability, because that is the thing that in free will + omniscience doesn't seem to make sense. If God knew that people were going to hell and yet did not stop it, this makes him not pure good, right? If God knows the evil that will happen and yet lets it happen (free will), then he can't really be omniscient?
God can indeed (biblically) prevent evil, knows it will happen and could fully stop it. Why not? Why let people burn in hell when he could turn them into instant God-lovers? Well, he doesn't want it to be forced. He created us to love us and for us to love him, but created free will so that it will be real, authentic. Do you want your kids to love you for absolutely no reason, to have no say in it at all, or do you want to show them your love for them and for them to respond with real, authentic love?
I don't want to go deep into Bible, because I realize that using the Bible to explain the Bible can be troublesome (although not always, but basically, I know you've heard this all before).
But why would God let things happen? I mean, couldn't he have stopped Satan from turning evil, couldn't he have stopped him from entering the world, couldn't he have made us perfectly loving?
That wouldn't be any fun, would it? But seriously, perhaps there was reason even behind allowing the fall of Satan, perhaps to prove our value? I don't know, I wish I had better, more thought out arguments, but basically, I don't understand the idea that omniscience + free will = impossible.
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On November 05 2004 15:55 BigBalls wrote:
Well, suppose there is an omniscient being.
If you believe in chaos theory, then everything can be predicted knowing all the initial conditions. It makes sense doesnt it? If one knew your hormone levels, everything you've been taught over the years, the climate, and any other influencing factors and how they influenced you, they could basically write your post for you word by word.
So now, if everything can be predicted, then there really isnt any free will. How can there be free will when everything is basically predetermined? If im destined to do something and I have no control over that, then I dont really have any choice in the matter do I? If my life can be written down before it happens by an omniscient source, do i really have any choice in my life?
Yes, I think so... Don't you? Just because they know it will happen doesn't mean you didn't choose to do it, does it? I'm sorry if I sound too basic, but honestly I don't fully understand why you think that this negates free will. You still are deciding what to do, even if someone else knows about it, no?
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EPT
