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Belief in an omnipotent pointless? - Page 13

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Shingha
Profile Joined November 2004
Korea (South)3 Posts
November 05 2004 15:18 GMT
#241
i think god exists. but the god that i assume is Spinoza(?)'s Pantheism... so every individuals is involved in the whole god. In there, divisionig 'myself, non-myself' is meaningless thing.
therefore i am united in god, 'believing, knowing....' are also ridiculous.

dunno Evangerion that is very famous Japan animation ? the end of evangerion shows the god entity that i mentioned above.
sibalama
BigBalls
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States5354 Posts
November 05 2004 15:29 GMT
#242
On November 06 2004 00:18 travis wrote:
here is the problem:

consciousness is not a physical thing

do you understand what I just tried to get at by that?


Thought is neurons moving back and forth in our mind. We are chemicals and our thoughts are chemical reactions in our body. I would define consciousness which is basically self awareness and thought as a physical reaction.

That might just be the alcohol talking
if you guys could use google and post direct links to the maphacks here it would be greatly appreciated. - Nazgul
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 05 2004 15:50 GMT
#243
Have you ever thought that maybe you approach at percieving reality maybe should be the opposite? (if i sound condescending or sarcastic I don't mean to be, the questions are genuine )

That maybe instead of reality being based upon the physical/material, and the physical/material being the cause of the mental/spiritual, it could be the exact opposite:

Perhaps reality is based upon the mental/spiritual, and this is the direct cause of the physical/material.

Makes sense, doesn't it?


So you know, about 1 year ago I made a post on these forums about why free will doesn't exist and everything is pre-determined. It seems logical, it really does. But I don't think it's right.


and one last thing. since you [kind of] gave consciousness a definition that would make it a physical thing, now you would have to define 'awareness' as a physical thing
FrEaK[S.sIR]
Profile Joined October 2002
2373 Posts
November 05 2004 16:04 GMT
#244
Since leading scientists have been able to define self awareness, I don't think you should ask bigballs to do the same =[

We aren't that far into how our brain works T_T
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 05 2004 16:06 GMT
#245
you mean "haven't"

and anyone can define it, they just can't explain it

i get what you were saying though

but that was my point
Mora
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Canada5235 Posts
November 05 2004 16:06 GMT
#246
travis, when the possibility of something happening is 100%, where do u find room for choice.

i do not understand.

if u are going to do something with no chance of doing anything else, how can u choose to do it. :O
Happiness only real when shared.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 05 2004 16:15 GMT
#247
ok im gonna give trying to explain what i mean a try
but as i said its all a matter of perception
gimme 5 min or so
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 05 2004 16:27 GMT
#248
ok first things first
need to define a couple things

omniscient:

"having total knowledge and awareness'

good?


now free will:


"the ability to make choices unconstrained by external agencies"

those good?
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 05 2004 16:30 GMT
#249
fuck this is gonna come out stupid and incredibly basic but maybe you'll understand what i understand
or maybe my thinking really *is* wrong
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 05 2004 16:38 GMT
#250
AHAHA i think I got it
FrEaK[S.sIR]
Profile Joined October 2002
2373 Posts
November 05 2004 16:40 GMT
#251
You do? What do you got travis?
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-11-05 16:55:46
November 05 2004 16:54 GMT
#252
ok

the problem with what you guys are saying is that you are thinking in terms of time

since the christian god(and really any other omniscient entity I could imagine existing) is omnipresent and omnitemporal(meaning everywhere at "everywhen") this view is flawed.

im pretty sure you guys are looking at free will in life as

guy can make choice:

A or B

which leads to:

A or B or C

which leads to:

A or B

etc(one choice leading to another)

since god is intemporal this viewpoint is wrong. god didn't have any effect on what happened, it just did, and he knows this because.. he does.

do you see what im saying? claiming that his knowledge of an event somehow makes that event predetermined is wrong because thats incorporates time. it acts like god is a good buddy of yours and you could ask him what is going to happen. it is the same as claiming that anything that has happened in our past was predetermined because of the fact that we know it happened(it may not seem the same, but it is. really)

even still this doesn't prove or disprove the argument either way, it just turns it back into a question, which was my point all along.

understand what im saying?


edit - is becomes was
FrEaK[S.sIR]
Profile Joined October 2002
2373 Posts
November 05 2004 17:19 GMT
#253
But that isn't the same, because knowing what has happened in the past is FAR from knowing EXACTLY what will happen in the future.

To be truly of free will we must be able to make choices without an omnipotent being knowing that that was the choice we were going to make. If he knows that is the choice we were going to make, then there was really no decision to it at all, just time consumed.

The past is something that has happened, you can't predetermine the past because to pre determine means to determine beforehand. You can't determine what will happen in the past, that doesn't even make any sense. Past has happened, there is no determining about it.

To not see the difference in those 2 seems silly to me.

We might also be using freewill incorrectly, let me summarize my main idea.

It is POINTLESS to believe in an omnipotent being because he already knows whether your going to heaven or hell, because he is omnipotent. If he does not possess that forsight he is not omnipotent and thus not the abrahamic god.

We just got into a side argument about free will being impossible if everything you will or won't do is already known.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 05 2004 17:25 GMT
#254
WOW DID YOU EVEN READ MY POST?

:-(
FrEaK[S.sIR]
Profile Joined October 2002
2373 Posts
November 05 2004 17:29 GMT
#255
yes, yes I did. Your claiming the fact that he knows what is going to happen doesn't void the choice.

But it makes the choice already known and thus wasn't a choice at all.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 05 2004 17:34 GMT
#256
:-(

ill wait until someone else reads it
FrEaK[S.sIR]
Profile Joined October 2002
2373 Posts
November 05 2004 17:42 GMT
#257
"ok"

rather than a real response, lets belittle somebody.

Dick.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 05 2004 17:53 GMT
#258
im sorry but when you conveniently ignore my main point im going to conveniently ignore your posts.
Liquid`Daaman
Profile Joined January 2003
Sweden1225 Posts
November 05 2004 17:58 GMT
#259
go darwin, go darwin!
Comfortably Numb
FrEaK[S.sIR]
Profile Joined October 2002
2373 Posts
November 05 2004 18:01 GMT
#260
Yes, I ignored it, of course, that is why I bothered to respond at all in a discussion I'm interested in.

That is the entire reason I'm even in this discussion is to ignore points made when I'm trying to discuss something, not 'win'. Yup, you got me.

Explain your main point more, unless your main point is that him knowing something is going to happen doesn't negate freewill. We have already discussed that to death and all your doing is complicated things that have already been stating with needless dribble.

None of us even incorporated time, you did =[

So rather than being a dick, discuss and don't think that I'm ignoring shit, I'm actually trying to discuss.

Unless you want to admit to being a completely asshole.
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