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On February 15 2011 16:37 VManOfMana wrote:
I can see the value of the Unix (and overall the open source) way of doing things. But just like Macs are not for everyone, the Unix way is not for everyone. Indeed, the Unix way allows you to do things in a very efficient way, but it also has a steeper learning curve. Most people don't have the patience nor time needed to get comfortable with it.
you mean opensource / free software.
Unix is what OSX and Linux originated from
and it has about the same learning curve as going from Windows -> OSX or vice versa. theres more options, but you dont have to learn them.
hell, i gave Mint to my 12 year old sister
+ Show Spoiler +sadly the only problem she had with it was that she wanted WLM and didnt want to change. but thats just because shes set it to pink
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On February 15 2011 16:22 Fir3fly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 16:03 VManOfMana wrote:
You don't really remember the days of Microsoft totalitarianism, do you? Once upon a time you basically had no option than to get a Windows computer unless you build your own. MacOS was primitive back then (pre-Jobs return) so it was not really an option. Microsoft literally held the hardware companies by the balls. Afterall, they did get convicted for illegally using monopoly power.
i actually dont, i missed out on alot of that cause i was (still am) a youngling and my mum was a computer nazi  .
Well, there ya go. Really, you don't have much to complain about nowadays
The great thing about Linux is also what kills it adoption. Why should I swap, replace, change, edit and tweak to have a useable system? How come Apple managed to be the first to have a good user interface for a UNIX-like operating system? (Mac OSX is based on BSD)
" Why should I swap" - because its not included by default, bar some laptops started to.
"change, edit and tweak to have a useable system?" - uhh.. what? you dont have to touch a thing in linux mint and it "just werks"
[/quote]
But you just said I can do all that if to make Linux be like OSX. I don't want Linux Mint, I want OSX, remember?
"How come Apple managed to be the first to have a good user interface for a UNIX-like operating system?" because back in the day (from what i've read) they were a great company that were interested in exploring new frontiers of technology, and they improved upon the Xerox GUI Systems,
technically, Xerox was first, but apple made it better.
And they still do. They managed to redefine the interaction model of smartphones, and made the table/slate computer market explode; something that Microsoft was unable to do for the past 10 years.
But you don't have to go that much in the past. The point is that OSX is UNIX-based, and Apple made a good user interface that is functional out of the box for a UNIX based OS before any Linux or Desktop Linux effort. Did you use KDE or Gnome before 2004?
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I really hate that 95 percent of notebooks (not an exaggeration) owned by the "elite" students of my prestigious university are macs. It makes me cringe.
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Macbook Pros are a very good option for college students when paired with the deal that Apple gives you during the preparing for school months. iTouch + Macbook Pro 13" is a great deal and you get a solid computer + solid backing.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 15 2011 16:48 Fir3fly wrote:Show nested quote +
I know just as well as you that it's not that hard or risky, but what makes you think that all these people buying a computer want to go through this ridiculous amount of trouble.
"ugh, i want a computer, i cant be fucked getting out of my chair so ill just fork over $3000 for one of those apple computers cause they're Show nested quote +
Now what? When their computer fails in a few months or they have some other issue they want to ask somebody out, what do they do? Wouldn't it be nice if there were some place that was experienced with talking to people that don't understand computers well and fixes most of your problems for free[\b]?
[b]HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAEHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH APPLE... FREE.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHUEHUEHUEHEUHUEUEHUHEUHE are you joking? sure they'll probably do minor troubleshooting, but they are definitely not free. they charged a friend of mine $400(+$120) for data recovery off a harddrive and installing a new one. I COULD OF DONE THAT FOR $20(+$80 for the same drive without an apple sticker) yeah my bad, i seem to just pick out numbers and run with them. Show nested quote +
Linux would solve this problem, but it's also the worst nightmare of someone just trying to get the things they want to do done. The average computer-user with their iPod and camera, MS-word doc-writing ways trying to get things done in Linux would most likely result in a camera or iPod thrown against a wall.
and that is the problem . people dont realise how to do shit, (and i dont blame them for not wanting to) so they just spend more money on supporting apple's monopoly.. same with microsoft. theres GUIS and APPS and wikis and everything for cameras and ipods on linux. but people just dont bother and just use itunes.. "instead of saving as pdf, why dont i just buy ms office 2007" thats the problem, its the monopoly that they have that just pushes them up higher. not to sound like a freetard, but EVERYTHING would be SOOOOO much better if everything was opensource.
Who doesn't charge for anything computer-related these days? Your friend would have been charged around that amount to do the same thing on a PC as well. But yes, you pay a premium for other people to do something for you. What's so new about that concept? I paid $100 for someone to install an in-dash dvd player in my car, pretty much taking apart part of my dash, hooking up a couple of wires, and putting it back together. Something I could've done myself, but may have taken several hours easily since I don't have all the right tools. It was worth it.
I remember when I worked for Circuit City, we even charged $40 EACH to convert a VHS to a DVD, and all we did was stick in the VHS and blank DVD into a converter deck and push a button. It's just how technical repair works... since forever.
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the table/slate computer market explode; something that Microsoft was unable to do for the past 10 years.
Microsoft mainly focus on their OS, i havent seen them do anything in terms of hardware.
and the reason that its "exploding" is because of their advertising / marketing.
i would of prefered that they discovered something revolutionary, rather than sell touchscreens better than anyone else.
I don't want Linux Mint, I want OSX, remember?
well then install Macbuntu :3
but in seriousness, what im saying is that if you want OSX, install OSX, if you dont want to set shit up but still want features, install some full featured linux distro.
Apple made a good user interface that is functional out of the box for a UNIX based OS before any Linux or Desktop Linux effort.
that might be the case (i honestly was just like anyone else and thought "windows" and "mac" was it, till about 2-3 years ago)
but the thing is, the Open source community is a slow one, but they are very quick to adapt. and theres plenty of choices.
IMAGINE how awesome it would be, if apple and windows released their GUI source code and everyone collaborated to make all types of awesome desktop Environments.
im using a tiling window manager, so i dont like OSX 's interface, nor windows, so linux is the only option for me to be comfortable.. pity they dont have any alternatives.
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I got a Macbook Pro just because I could not find a PC that didn't look terrible. In addition, I am very much into video and image editing so even though it did cost quite a bit of money (more money than a PC laptop would have cost), I am quite happy with my purchase.
I think that from an aesthetic point of view, Apple products generally are designed so much better than other products...
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On February 15 2011 17:10 arsenic wrote:
I got a Macbook Pro just because I could not find a PC that didn't look terrible. In addition, I am very much into video and image editing so even though it did cost quite a bit of money (more money than a PC laptop would have cost), I am quite happy with my purchase.
I think that from an aesthetic point of view, Apple products generally are designed so much better than other products...
This was very true around 1-2 years ago, but PC makers have really caught up. ASUS, MSI, Acer, Sony, Dell, HP all have very attractive lines of PCs now.
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honestly, the mac book pro is a great product in my opinion.
abit pricy though, but in terms of durability/etc its alot better than other notebooks. (a bitch to fix, but light, small, and solid)
really, all their products are ok, they just need to follow standards to make shit easier (as in use proper display ports and dont invent a new cable for every product. the more usb the better)
and to be cheaper and less greedy lying scoundrels :D
products are ok, its just the company is shit.
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disclaimer: I use a 2007 white entry-level Macbook.
Those were the times where the USD to MYR currency conversion was expensive as hell.
Reason why I use a mac
(to be fair that worked at 2007)
Back then, I wasted 40gb on a shit Acer laptop just to install Ubuntu.
Back then, the only way to dual boot was to use GRUB. I failed spectacularly.
My Macbook still performs like it was new. Only I changed my battery once. Cost me USD239 i think.
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because i have a hundred billion dollars
posted from my $20k mac pro
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On February 15 2011 17:32 care wrote:disclaimer: I use a 2007 white entry-level Macbook. Those were the times where the USD to MYR currency conversion was expensive as hell. Reason why I use a mac (to be fair that worked at 2007) Back then, I wasted 40gb on a shit Acer laptop just to install Ubuntu. Back then, the only way to dual boot was to use GRUB. I failed spectacularly. My Macbook still performs like it was new. Only I changed my battery once. Cost me USD239 i think.
Install Debian Squeeze with only the base installation, even without a desktop environment, and then read manuals for 2 weeks using the function "man" in console.
Then, apt-get install xorg xfce4 xfce-battery-plugin chromium flashplugin-nonfree. That's about 2.4 GB for a desktop environment with a completely functional web browser.
edit: That's what I did, buy hey, I'm a geek.
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I own a 2009 MBP (paid for by work) and although it looks nice from the outside it's extremely average and way overpriced for what it is.
Remember through all my complaints that this thing cost $3500 and was supposed to be the highest quality top of the range laptop at the time.
- Only 2 usb ports (keyboard, mouse and headset? just kidding) Having them plugged in all at once through a hub just causes power surges and all devices turn off. I blame the mouse and keyboard for the power surges because they have lights and stuff but I mean come on... 2 USB ports?
- No delete key. Yeah I know you can press fn+backspace but come on. I have never used the eject dvd key once, it could have gone there. So annoying when you don't have access to a full sized keyboard.
- No proper microphone port so you have to use a usb headset (adding to the problem of not enough USB ports) or "high-end recording device". Yeah I'll just get my studio boom mic out for Skype won't I Apple?
- Line out/headphone jack has awful static/interference.
- Battery life is terrible if you do anything other than stare at the background.
Massive waste of money but at least it wasn't my money. Makes me cry when I can't work from home on my good PC that cost less than $800 and I have to use that damn laptop. OSX is nice and I like having a unix terminal available but Windows 7 shits all over it in terms of handling multiple applications (not uncommon for me to have 60+ windows open) and being quicker to do almost everything. If I need Linux I just ssh in to one of our servers, Amazon cloud or boot up a VM.
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On February 15 2011 19:18 vek wrote:
I own a 2009 MBP (paid for by work) and although it looks nice from the outside it's extremely average and way overpriced for what it is.
Remember through all my complaints that this thing cost $3500 and was supposed to be the highest quality top of the range laptop at the time.
- Only 2 usb ports (keyboard, mouse and headset? just kidding) Having them plugged in all at once through a hub just causes power surges and all devices turn off. I blame the mouse and keyboard for the power surges because they have lights and stuff but I mean come on... 2 USB ports?
- No delete key. Yeah I know you can press fn+backspace but come on. I have never used the eject dvd key once, it could have gone there. So annoying when you don't have access to a full sized keyboard.
- No proper microphone port so you have to use a usb headset (adding to the problem of not enough USB ports) or "high-end recording device". Yeah I'll just get my studio boom mic out for Skype won't I Apple?
- Line out/headphone jack has awful static/interference.
- Battery life is terrible if you do anything other than stare at the background.
Massive waste of money but at least it wasn't my money. Makes me cry when I can't work from home on my good PC that cost less than $800 and I have to use that damn laptop. OSX is nice and I like having a unix terminal available but Windows 7 shits all over it in terms of handling multiple applications (not uncommon for me to have 60+ windows open) and being quicker to do almost everything. If I need Linux I just ssh in to one of our servers, Amazon cloud or boot up a VM.
???
my experience is 100% opposite of yours.
i don't game with my mac, but i have a white mac from 2009 - its the cheapest spec available and the best laptop i have owned! and i have owned A LOT of laptops...
7 hours battery life, super sweet charger, PnP with everything on my network (even plays nice with windows 7 shared folders), unibody design that doesn't burn my thighs, specs good enough to run most modern games without being too laggy and, most important of all, complete coverage.
i broke my charger, they gave me a new one without question. my bf got his screen replaced with an even better screen due to ONE dead pixel a year+ after buying the laptop. when they need to "fix" a part they don't just give you the same crappy part too - they actually upgrade it to the newest tech. what other company does that?!?!
apple makes very high quality products that they stand behind and back up with warranties no other company can match. i'm not a fangirl by any means (also prefer windows 7 to osx), i just think those who feel that "PCs are better" for the value factor really don't understand that what you need from a computer is RELIABILITY and every other laptop we have owned in this household has fallen apart in one way or another. my apple hasn't. and i'm really rough with my gadgets!
i had some awesome specs for the laptops i had gotten during my university years, because i wanted to game on the go, but everyone of them fell apart in <1.5 years. i had to buy 2 laptops over the 4 years i spent in uni. i wish i had gotten a mac earlier. it would actually save more to have had one great solid reliable laptop than the 2 "gaming" laptops that i had.
the funny thing is, i would have been able to game on the mac, too.
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Zurich15325 Posts
On February 15 2011 19:43 tetrisgirl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 19:18 vek wrote:
I own a 2009 MBP (paid for by work) and although it looks nice from the outside it's extremely average and way overpriced for what it is.
Remember through all my complaints that this thing cost $3500 and was supposed to be the highest quality top of the range laptop at the time.
- Only 2 usb ports (keyboard, mouse and headset? just kidding) Having them plugged in all at once through a hub just causes power surges and all devices turn off. I blame the mouse and keyboard for the power surges because they have lights and stuff but I mean come on... 2 USB ports?
- No delete key. Yeah I know you can press fn+backspace but come on. I have never used the eject dvd key once, it could have gone there. So annoying when you don't have access to a full sized keyboard.
- No proper microphone port so you have to use a usb headset (adding to the problem of not enough USB ports) or "high-end recording device". Yeah I'll just get my studio boom mic out for Skype won't I Apple?
- Line out/headphone jack has awful static/interference.
- Battery life is terrible if you do anything other than stare at the background.
Massive waste of money but at least it wasn't my money. Makes me cry when I can't work from home on my good PC that cost less than $800 and I have to use that damn laptop. OSX is nice and I like having a unix terminal available but Windows 7 shits all over it in terms of handling multiple applications (not uncommon for me to have 60+ windows open) and being quicker to do almost everything. If I need Linux I just ssh in to one of our servers, Amazon cloud or boot up a VM. ??? my experience is 100% opposite of yours. i don't game with my mac, but i have a white mac from 2009 - its the cheapest spec available and the best laptop i have owned! and i have owned A LOT of laptops... 7 hours battery life, super sweet charger, PnP with everything on my network (even plays nice with windows 7 shared folders), unibody design that doesn't burn my thighs, specs good enough to run most modern games without being too laggy and, most important of all, complete coverage. i broke my charger, they gave me a new one without question. my bf got his screen replaced with an even better screen due to ONE dead pixel a year+ after buying the laptop. when they need to "fix" a part they don't just give you the same crappy part too - they actually upgrade it to the newest tech. what other company does that?!?! apple makes very high quality products that they stand behind and back up with warranties no other company can match. i'm not a fangirl by any means (also prefer windows 7 to osx), i just think those who feel that "PCs are better" for the value factor really don't understand that what you need from a computer is RELIABILITY and every other laptop we have owned in this household has fallen apart in one way or another. my apple hasn't. and i'm really rough with my gadgets! i had some awesome specs for the laptops i had gotten during my university years, because i wanted to game on the go, but everyone of them fell apart in <1.5 years. i had to buy 2 laptops over the 4 years i spent in uni. i wish i had gotten a mac earlier. it would actually save more to have had one great solid reliable laptop than the 2 "gaming" laptops that i had. the funny thing is, i would have been able to game on the mac, too.
Haha this is basically my post (although I have a 2010 MBP). Agree with the guy on the missing DELETE key though, that is driving me nuts.
I also love this:
On February 15 2011 16:14 Fir3fly wrote:my Gentoo Kernel is fully trimmed down and tailored to my computer specs and design, they were built for each other by me, its like a love story. OSX is not "intergrated" into the hardware, they just cut out 70% of the drivers and supporting software out of their kernels and then just make sure they dont have that hardware in their computers. its nothing special.
I used to be that guy too. Had my completely custom machines build from the ground (stage1) up with Gentoo for years. Then I left university, got a job, and simply didn't have the time anymore to do that. Luckily there was a company that did the same thing for me to prices I could now afford.
Why wouldn't I get Mac?
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I have a Mac because I have access to the *nix command line, and I don't have to deal with any of linux's bs (which to be fair is almost a non-issue now for more mainstream distros, but my laptop is old). I use Linux at work and as a hobby, but I do like to have something I don't have to think about sometimes.
I hate Mac cultists. Hope all their houses burn down.
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The reasons used to be some software that could only run on Mac OS, and since that OS used to only run on Mac hardware, some people would naturally get a Mac.
These days with hackinthosh's being so good, so easy to install, and actually pretty legit, since you can use a real store bought disc to install, I don't really see a reason. You can even get the iOS SDK working on a hackintosh, which is really the only important OS restricted piece of software that I can think of (there may be some audio/video stuff too).
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I have a MacBookPro for work, and an alienware m11x I bought for me
The MBP cost the company $1600, has i3, 500gb hd, 4gb ram, 512mb graphics as of december
I got the m11x the MONTH it came out for $1200 (overnight shipping), SU7300 (i7 wasnt around at the time), 4gb ram, 500gb hd, and 1 gb graphics
i have sc2 installed on both, mbp runs it on low but painfully, m11x did ultra for campaign an med for multiplayer (due to customs with 238492798 units)
the MBP stays at work to check email, google voice, and IM
m11x goes with me everywhere for portable gaming, and biotech software
# of crashes on m11x - 1 due to not charging it cuz i forgot the cable at home
# of crashes on MBP - any flash web site
whats the difference, $400 more for a MBP (with weaker graphics) while the m11x r2 (with i7) is still $200 cheaper wit better graphics, or my old m11x with a weaker processor but still better graphics than the MBP
now...alienware is overpriced as well. so an acer would have higher specs than the m11x, a bigger screen, better graphics card and cost much less than the MBP
what i hate more about mac, is their users
at univ of md, i saw so many goddamn mac users who were so happy with their MBP playing farmville while i played sc2 on high (beta days)
yet they would rub it in your face how 'unique' a mac is
its like pooping, the first organism that did it was unique. if everyone has it, then its not unique
no one says they are unique cuz they can poop, we all poop, some of us buy it repacked and overpriced as a mac product.
i think this picture sums it up best
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DqoIX.jpg)
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You don't really remember the days of Microsoft totalitarianism, do you? Once upon a time you basically had no option than to get a Windows computer unless you build your own. MacOS was primitive back then (pre-Jobs return) so it was not really an option. Microsoft literally held the hardware companies by the balls. Afterall, they did get convicted for illegally using monopoly power.
It's funny you should say that, because I actually did some of my undergrad Economics research into the Department of Justice vs Microsoft cases, and the DoJ did not have much of a case, it was mostly a witch hunt (mostly). Anyways, what does this have to do with the topic at hand? This isn't a thread of which is better, it's about why buy a Mac when you can do it yourself for cheaper?
Nowadays you actually have a choice in part thanks to Apple, not despite them.
As an Econ major, I must say the more the better (competition), however the only thing I can really get is that Apple is charging people largely because they are uninformed, and the problem with this is that in a perfect capitalist market, the consumer is rational and *knowledgeable*, meaning he will buy a superior product if one exists. The only reason people buy Apple - it seems - is because they are ignorant of being able to get a custom built, by say, a PC store, or how to understand computer hardware specs and realize a similar PC is half the price. In fact, this would mean that Apple hurts the capitalist market, as they are 'stealing away' money from those companies who truly deserve the funding to expand and survive as a business.
The best thing, is Apple to sell it's OS. I'm aware of their hardware/software philosophy, but we already see that it's goofy. Just get better drivers.
+ Show Spoiler +Cheapest Mac - iMac 21.5" - $1200
Core i3 3.06 GhZ
4GB RAM
500GB HDD
HD 4670 VGA
1. I see your build as $400 on Newegg. This is what I'm going with since rebates/sales come and go.
2. Since some of the items in both systems are better/worse, I'm not gonna nitpick... but...
3. I also don't see an operating system ($200), power supply ($50), and dvd drive ($20).
4. An equivalent HDD would also be about another $20.
5. The Mac comes with a screen ($150).
6. The Mac comes with a wireless keyboard/mouse ($70 - I'll be generous even though I believe the Mac keyboard/mouse would actually be around $100 equivalent).
So really, your "equivalent" system is $900. Okay, it's still cheaper than $1200. But that's hardly as gross as the pricing difference you were implying with $2500 vs $350.
$300 difference? Some people would NOT mind spending that extra cash for the "Apple design." Even more, as some people here have even described, there's a certain peace of mind that they are willing to pay for when it comes to their Macs. If you want to hate on Macs, you can similarly hate on Sonys for being overpriced for their "design" and brand name. Except Macs aren't overbloated with crapware like Sonys.
1. Rebates do matter - I had a $50 rebate on my GPU, a $5 rebate on both my 2GB sticks of RAM, I found my NZXT Case cheaper at WalMart.com, and my HDD was a recertified for $20.
2/3. PSU is Antec 430D. All for $350. I don't have some outdated DVD drive, and my OS was free. lets just say I run Linux.
4. HDD doesn't really matter, we both play SC2 just as fast. I have a modern 7200 Sata too.
5. Mac with screen for $150, sure, you can knock off $150 or add 150 to my build. whatever.
6. Mouse and Keyboard... $20 kinzu, $20 at most keyboard for SC2.
Hardly $900. More like $350 + 150 screen + 40 peripherals, and you could spend another $50 for Caviar Black 500GB.
But I'm not here to hate on Macs. I'm not here to hate on anything - like I said, I didn't know the difference between RAM and a HDD memory, I didn't know what a GPU vs a PSU was, 4 weeks ago. I'm just someone who is genuinely confused, and has no clue. I'm trying to figure things out. When I built my PC, I realized how retarded it was to ever, ever buy prebuilt (Alienware for $1k with a $40 GPU?). Realizing the customization of custom built, I don't see why people don't just buy Mac cases, or install Mac OS, on their desktop, and just save a ton of money.
And this whole peace of mind is crap. I have total peace of mind with my Microsoft, quit saying things like that with no evidence. If you can provide a statistic that PC's (read: not acers) have a higher repair rate, or that X% of PCs have a cpu break down where Macs dont, or some kind of FACT, I'd listen. But all I hear from MacFans is that "oh its so smooth and easy". Right. So is PC/Linux/MS. Just set it up correctly, or pay someone to set it up correctly for you.
Wouldn't it be nice if there were some place that was experienced with talking to people that don't understand computers well and fixes most of your problems for free?
Best Buy Geek Squad. Finished.
I honestly have no idea where you're getting $2700 from.
http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MC560LL/A?mco=MTg2OTUwMjQ
You can say you were able to avoid viruses, but remember: you're in the top 5% of computer understanding
No, I'm not. i Googled "what free computer security should I get?" and found I should get avast, peerblock, use MS's firewall, and malwarebytes. What do they do? I have no idea!
I bought my Macbook used for 300 USD. Unfortunately using it in public for work forces me to contend with the stereotypes of Mac users being blind spendthrifts with no capacity to critically make purchase decisions. I don't terribly mind because everyone who knows me knows I'm comfortable with a variety of platforms, but it's simply a pity to see people being so impetuous with their stalwart assumptions.
This conversation is about Desktops. We've already confirmed that with laptops, the price premium just for looks isn't that steep and may be worth it.
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On February 15 2011 22:29 amd098 wrote:i think this picture sums it up best
Man this picture would look a lot better if he'd made it on a Mac :\
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EPT![[image loading]](http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/5775288/yo-can-i-use-ur-pc-installs-bonzi-buddy.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Scumbag-Steve)
