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What are the evolutionary drives of homosexuality?
As a medical student, this question has always been in the back of my mind since my first encounter with Darwin's evolutionary theory and my acceptance of it in light of all the knowledge I had gained. The scientific literature seems to vaguely classify this line of thought as 'somewhat paradoxical' and I thought it'd be a good brain-storming topic to discuss with other inquiring and scientific minds.
First of all, this thread has no room for religious input; religious point of view of homosexuality is clear and no one with a scientific mind cares for it. I'm only interested in scientific schools of thought, in line with the theory of evolution.
As with every physical and psychological behavior, the answer to the question must lie in genetics which directly or indirectly may influence evolutionary patterns.
I encourage you to consider the following before you propose what evolutionary mechanisms might be behind homosexuality and why it's not being removed from the gene pool due to the apparent and obvious challenge it poses to the perpetuation of our species and, in fact, others:
Homosexuality is the biological drive and the performance of same-sex coitus.
It is observed in many species of animals other than Humans.
Sexuality is not a chosen preference.
Homosexuality as a side effect of increased sex drive (not exactly the case with humans).
Homosexuality as an adaptive response to remove competitors from seeking partners of opposite sex (not the case with humans)
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On November 30 2010 07:45 mikado wrote:
As with every physical and psychological behavior, the answer to the question must lie in genetics.
every psychological behavior is explained via genetics??? so when i cry when idra loses it's because my ancestors who didn't cry for icons died out or those who cried gave birth more frequently/successfully?
and like when i start pokemon red and oak tells me to name my rival, my psychological response of "hmm i think i'll name him KEFKA" is related to my genetics?!?! omg
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As a senior BSNRN student, the only thing influencing my opinion on homosexuality is this:
Some homosexual males have a corpus colossum that is very large. Normally a thicker corpus colossum is seen only in the female brain, I find this very interesting.
It seems that in some cases of homosexuality- a physical change has taken place inside of the male body, and thus he can become 'gay.'
As for the evolutionary theory:
Homosexual acts are sometimes used in the animal kingdom to:
1. Increase social bonds
2. Help to diffuse heated social interactions
Species that exhibit these traits: A certain species of ram, some primates, big cats, dolphins ext
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On November 30 2010 07:51 _Darwin_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 07:45 mikado wrote:
As with every physical and psychological behavior, the answer to the question must lie in genetics.
every psychological behavior is explained via genetics??? so when i cry when idra loses it's because my ancestors who didn't cry for icons died out or those who cried gave birth more frequently/successfully? and like when i start pokemon red and oak tells me to name my rival, my psychological response of "hmm i think i'll name him KEFKA" is related to my genetics?!?! omg
you cry when idra loses?
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Is it seen in species do not copulate for pleasure (beyond the occasional mistaken identity which is common in bees and whatnot)?
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Homosexuality's innate characteristics (in which it discourages procreation with the opposite sex) indicates that it may not be closely related to heredity. [I'm unsure if you have any studies that suggest sexuality is linked to heredity, but if you do, would you mind linking them in the OP?]
Not everything is directly determined by heredity, there are many other factors at play, even just random mutations that may lead to the homosexuality (the cause of homosexuality hasn't been pinpointed, as far as I know).
Edit: Actually, are you asking about genetics in general or heredity specifically? (since 'genes' can sort of describe both)
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I heard on a podcast recently a theory that homosexuality is a result of promiscuity in women. Essentially, women were genetically predisposed to promiscuity when disease and mortality rates increased, due to their need to reproduce. With medical breakthroughs, life expectancy is longer and we are "safer," but this genetic code is still passed down, causing children to be increasingly promiscuous, possibly not discriminating in their sexual partners.
Obviously you can argue homosexuality as nature vs. nurture, or a number of other ways. Not saying I believe in this theory, just thought it was interesting.
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On November 30 2010 07:51 _Darwin_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 07:45 mikado wrote:
As with every physical and psychological behavior, the answer to the question must lie in genetics.
every psychological behavior is explained via genetics??? so when i cry when idra loses it's because my ancestors who didn't cry for icons died out or those who cried gave birth more frequently/successfully? and like when i start pokemon red and oak tells me to name my rival, my psychological response of "hmm i think i'll name him KEFKA" is related to my genetics?!?! omg
You are being too specific. You are getting upset about someone or something you care about which is quite reasonable to assume might have some evolutionary advantages.
I do not quite agree that all behavior lies in the genes even though most of it can be explained through genes. How these genetic traits we have are exposed as we grow up and how we learn things will have an affect as well.
OnTopic: There mustn't be an evolutionary drive for homosexuality as long as homosexuals also has the desire to have kids which they do. It seems to be a natural variation among many species. There might be and I don't know what that advantage would be but just saying that there mustn't necessarily be one as long as it isn't either an evolutionary disadvantage (like not wanting to reproduce) or perhaps a common gene mutation of some sort.
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On November 30 2010 07:51 _Darwin_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 07:45 mikado wrote:
As with every physical and psychological behavior, the answer to the question must lie in genetics.
every psychological behavior is explained via genetics??? so when i cry when idra loses it's because my ancestors who didn't cry for icons died out or those who cried gave birth more frequently/successfully? and like when i start pokemon red and oak tells me to name my rival, my psychological response of "hmm i think i'll name him KEFKA" is related to my genetics?!?! omg
Good troll. I won't go into how genes influence development of organs and functions thereof via homeostatic pathway regulations at numerous levels (and those in even different levels such as endocrine, neuronal or neuroendcrinal) second messenger coupling system efficiency, and bunch other only someone who studied them would understand.
Primal urges such as the sexual drive are governed by organ development at different levels, hormones and other inputs, all of which are regulated by gene activity.
On November 30 2010 07:52 Ramiel wrote:
As a senior BSNRN student, the only thing influencing my opinion on homosexuality is this:
Some homosexual males have a corpus colossum that is very large. Normally a thicker corpus colossum is seen only in the female brain, I find this very interesting.
It seems that in some cases of homosexuality- a physical change has taken place inside of the male body, and thus he can become 'gay.'
Yes, also the hypothalamus of homosexual individuals is notably bigger than those of heterosexuals. Another causal relationship between homosexuality and genes I suppose.
On November 30 2010 07:54 w_Ender_w wrote:
Is it seen in species do not copulate for pleasure (beyond the occasional mistaken identity which is common in bees and whatnot)?
Yes, some species copulate for pleasure, some species of birds if I'm not mistaken, as do macaques.
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The following is just guesswork but it seems reasonable to me.
Wouldn't any set of parents contain the genes for both female and male attraction and any child could inherit either, like hair or eye color? If it's a natural genetic variation from any straight parents there would be no way for natural selection to actively select against the gene combination?
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On November 30 2010 07:55 Ichabod wrote:
Homosexuality's innate characteristics (in which it discourages procreation with the opposite sex) indicates that it may not be closely related to heredity. [I'm unsure if you have any studies that suggest sexuality is linked to heredity, but if you do, would you mind linking them in the OP?]
Not everything is directly determined by heredity, there are many other factors at play, even just random mutations that may lead to the homosexuality (the cause of homosexuality hasn't been pinpointed, as far as I know).
As it's observed in numerous animal species and also in humans, it's evolved out of Darwinian natural selection somehow.
The obvious links of genes-to-behaviour of species (organs development, hormonal regulation; hypothalamus size in humans and therefore hormone differences in homosexuals and heterosexuals in FSH, LH and gonadotrophin hormones, etc) infers that it must be genetic (whether it's transmitted in heterozygous/homozygous passive/dominant fashion or in a completely different form of gene transmission yet to be discovered, is still in question however).
But the simplest way of looking at it; biological phenomena-->genetic heredity.
The question is, why has it not been rooted out of the genomes of species because of its obvious disadvantages?
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That's a good point. Possibly correct too. But somehow I still feel like my butt is an "exit only" zone.
Anyways, back to being scientific (as much as a moron like me can be). I'd like to bite on the "Homosexuality as a side effect of increased sex drive (not exactly the case with humans)" point of view, coz I feel like there is something correct in it.
With all that evolution that's going on right now, it seems pretty logical. Humans mature earlier and they're a lot more ... open (?!) to all sorts of behaviors and conditions. Having said that thou, I do feel like it's not as much a case of pure evolution, but rather technology driven sex drive.
Why so ? Well, the freedom of speech gave us Playboy and Hustler. The ability to see moving and talking pictures inside a box (see that as Television), gave us the ability to capture our very intimate moments to review it later and be aroused by it. That sparked off a lot of sex-related fantasies and so on. Then plastics came along and gave us "toys" or simply tools to enhance our sexual experience, drive and passion.
Now you'll be right to correct me and say that homosexuality has been around since prolly Day 1 of humanity, but all that technology, made it a lot more accessible. And that is important.
With the advance of all the technology, people started to depend on it. Teenagers listening to music, watching videos on MTV and all that good and normal jazz that they do. We all did it, right ? So where's the difference ? Why now they seems to be a lot more homo- and bi-sexual individuals then before ? Or are they ? To me they are a lot more nowdays. Reason is simple.
Sex sales ! Back in the 80s and 90s, growing up kids were getting aroused by seeing Sandra's cleavage, while nowdays, kids are flooded with almost naked bodies from the screens. And I'm not entirely sure that they're getting the same kick out of it, as my generation back in the days for example. Could be just me thou.
So - maturing earlier, getting flooded with sex from all your surroundings ... Kinda answers itself I guess. Getting into sex earlier, means in 99% of the cases that you're not exactly matured enough for it, but yet, you keep driving yourself into it, because everyone around you thinks "it's great". And when you're that young and into sex, you don't always understand what's happening with your body or why is it happening. That leads to you, trying to figure out different things in sex that make you feel ... different for example.
Point is, we're getting driven into and by sex from all around us, so there's no surprise that humanity is taking a huge dive into understanding its sexuality. You can even go into extreme and call it "a fashion statement" if you want, because nowdays, a lot of the homosexuals are just extremely sex driven, as are insatiable hunger for sex. That will take a real evolution to be figured out (note : not "to be cured out" or "to be ridden out").
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On November 30 2010 08:03 mikado wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 07:51 _Darwin_ wrote:On November 30 2010 07:45 mikado wrote:
As with every physical and psychological behavior, the answer to the question must lie in genetics.
every psychological behavior is explained via genetics??? so when i cry when idra loses it's because my ancestors who didn't cry for icons died out or those who cried gave birth more frequently/successfully? and like when i start pokemon red and oak tells me to name my rival, my psychological response of "hmm i think i'll name him KEFKA" is related to my genetics?!?! omg Primal urges such as the sexual drive are governed by organ development at different levels, hormones and other inputs, all of which are regulated by gene activity.
But you didn't say primal urges. You said:
As with every psychological behavior, the answer to the question must lie in genetics.
You said to explain every psychological behavior one must turn to genetics. Please revise the op?
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On November 30 2010 08:09 Asur wrote:
The following is just guesswork but it seems reasonable to me.
Wouldn't any set of parents contain the genes for both female and male attraction and any child could inherit either, like hair or eye color? If it's a natural genetic variation from any straight parents there would be no way for natural selection to actively select against the gene combination?
Successive generations (given there's no use for the gene) would see that gene suppressed, inactivated or deleted. The genes for gills for example, we evolved out of those.
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is this allowed?
+ Show Spoiler +
i honestly believe that gayness comes from a lack of sexness with girls, and too much curiousity in when a man finds out he finds other men attractive and starts to look deeper into it, the other half dont look deeper into it and remain straight, its that simple. now with all the media okaying it and stuff, people are more comfortable, yet afraid but more likely to pursue gayness!
donno if i even answered a proper question but thats my theory on why people are gay. its not a bad thing, its just the way shit happens man simple as that.
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On November 30 2010 08:13 _Darwin_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 08:03 mikado wrote:On November 30 2010 07:51 _Darwin_ wrote:On November 30 2010 07:45 mikado wrote:
As with every physical and psychological behavior, the answer to the question must lie in genetics.
every psychological behavior is explained via genetics??? so when i cry when idra loses it's because my ancestors who didn't cry for icons died out or those who cried gave birth more frequently/successfully? and like when i start pokemon red and oak tells me to name my rival, my psychological response of "hmm i think i'll name him KEFKA" is related to my genetics?!?! omg Primal urges such as the sexual drive are governed by organ development at different levels, hormones and other inputs, all of which are regulated by gene activity. But you didn't say primal urges. You said: Show nested quote +As with every psychological behavior, the answer to the question must lie in genetics. You said to explain every psychological behavior one must turn to genetics. Please revise the op?
No, what I say stands correct. Every thought process if essentially integrated from primal urges. Thoughts are biological outputs, they don't come out of nowhere. They, therefore, are governed by genes at the very basic level.
Don't nitpick what I say, contribute to the topic or get out 
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Well if you want to have a scientific discussion you are going to need to provide proof for your assumptions. Especially this
"As with every physical and psychological behavior, the answer to the question must lie in genetics
or this
Sexuality is not a chosen preference.
I've done papers on this for university but it's not going to be worth my time just judging from how this thread has gone so far.
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On November 30 2010 07:45 mikado wrote:
Homosexuality as a side effect of increased sex drive (not exactly the case with humans).
Though not as scientific as the rest of this thread, I feel I have to chime in on this. In my experience I've come across a few college students that had gay relationships because of the conscious decision that only another man would share their elevated sex drive.
If you can't find a chick that wants to have sex every day of the week, find another guy.
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On November 30 2010 08:03 mikado wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 07:54 w_Ender_w wrote:
Is it seen in species do not copulate for pleasure (beyond the occasional mistaken identity which is common in bees and whatnot)? Yes, some species copulate for pleasure, some species of birds if I'm not mistaken, as do macaques.
Sorry, either I wasn't clear or there was some misunderstanding. I meant that I was wondering if you see homosexuality in animals that DO NOT copulate for pleasure.
If you don't really see it in species that do not copulate for pleasure, then the evolutionary drive could plausibly be explained as a social or cultural trait among social species. It wouldn't need to deal with procreation at all.
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On November 30 2010 07:45 mikado wrote:
As with every physical and psychological behavior, the answer to the question must lie in genetics which directly or indirectly may influence evolutionary patterns
You made me cringe when you said religious thought had no place in the sceintific mind. Philosophy of Religion and Cosmology are particularly intertwined with religion. Thats not even considering non-christian/catholic religions, which I asume are on the base of your argument.
Then you completely lost me on that quote. There is no way I can see you can even come close to support such an arguement.
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EPT
