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Let me start things off by saying that I am merely a spectator of BW and SC2, so I do not know much about the cost-benefit of Ultralisks or such.
But one thing bothers me a lot in SC2: the size of the Ultralisk with respect to other units. They just seem too big. Yes, Ultralisks should be bigger than life but they were slightly only bigger than tanks in BW.
But in SC2, they tower over even tanks. Marines look like midgets when compared to them; well, that is to be expected but the difference is really exaggerated here. In short, if an army of Ultralisks attacks, it looks quite intimidating to a Terran opponent.
Wow, would you expect that... the intimidation factor. I am positively sure that good Terran players dismiss the threat of the Ultralisk look, aha, but still! Think of this: when Ultralisks attack a group of marines in SC2, their razor blades sweep through quite a wide area thanks to their size so they attack more units than they normally would look like in BW (or that might not be the case since I do not know exactly how Ultralisk damage works).
Though, their huge size really makes an advantage for Terrans in maps where there are narrow ramps and such; Ultralisks can only make it through in a line or so. That is not the point: they are just too big in SC2 in my opinion! =3
So feel free to comment on this, dada.
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Making them smaller would buff them too much imo. But I agree they are huggee. I think thors are also too big.
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Well, there was the same problem with Thors, which was addressed by patch (Still pretty big). I would not be surprised if they lowered the size of Ultralisk also. It really seems huge..
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I think they look awesome because they are so big
I wish the thor and colossi were bigger also
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THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID.
But yeah, the reason thor's don't have this problem is because they do crazy damage from RANGE.
Colossus is the most mobile of the 3 massive units because they have no pathing restrictions.
Ultra is just fundamentally flawed because SC2 maps are so small (with SO many chokes), and ultra is melee with poor splash mechanics.
Once larger, more open maps come into play I'm sure everyone will be saying "ULTRA OP!"
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Really? Thors have a problem? They have 7 range.
It blows my mind that they got pathing help and the ultralisks were left to get stuck and loop around at the smallest of chokes.
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I kinda agree, the ultralisks are out of scale, pains me to se the fumbling sturggling in their attempts to reach my toss units.
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Ultra size is fine. They are already very hard to counter in large numbers except in small chokes. They need to have some disadvantages. Making them smaller is not a necessary buff to zerg whom arguably have the strongest late game units.
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I think ultras are too big, just because thors were reduced (even colossus was reduced, and it can move over all other units), but ultralisks weren't. I'd say it's even more important for ultras to be smaller for zerg than thors to be small for terran because zerg relies so much on short range or melee range units, which simply won't work when other units are blocking them.
Sure thors were probably bigger than ultras (although I can't say that for sure as I don't remember the numbers), but like I said, I think it's more important issue with zerg.
Thing is - again with thors - thors are currently smaller than siege tanks, which I think is pretty stupid... at least when other units like ultralisk are so much larger.
Overall, I can't say it's a required update though, compared to other things that should be done. I'd also say it wouldn't make a huge difference, but I think it would be a useful one.
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Should totally remove pathing restrictions and make ultras like colossi. 
STOMP STOMP STOMP.
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Ultras were fine until Thors were shrunk. Now, relatively, they are not fine.
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There's no glaring problem here. First off, everything about their size makes sense in terms of the lore - these things are F'ing massive. Secondly, reducing their size could cause balance issues by letting more of them attack certain targets.
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their size makes sense in terms of the lore, these things are F'ing massive
Yet oddly fragile for how menacing they look. To be honest, I hate the DPS Ultralisk.
I want those things to be a nightmarish damage soak for my roaches, lings and hydras, not giant walking scissors that I have to babysit so that they don't all pile up and do jack diddly. Add a couple of strategically placed depots/pylons to clog up pathing and a basic tank/immortal defense can dispatch my 2000/1500 investment in t3 units like its nothing.
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ultralisk are really far to big to be cost effctive in big numbers. Because only a couple of them will be attacking unless the zerg gets a full surround this is because they are melee. I think that they should be slightly smaller or possible have a range of say 0.5 so they can get a better concave. However they are realy effective at killing buildings.
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ultras should walk over lings. problem solved.
does the current ultra fit in with starcraft design philosophy? absolutely not, but the current design team doesnt seem to care (new ultra, banshee, roach, etc). I for one am hoping for some sort of redesign for HotS
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Ultras are supposed to be large because you only want one on a ramp at a time. This makes it so that if the opponent does not have a proper counter at the given moment, they can at least preserve some things while the ultras crap on all your expos.
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If the size of the ultra would get reduced, they also need to take the splash away. I hate the splash of ultras anyway but right now it makes sense because they are so huge + block own units, but if they get reduced splash doesnt make sense anymore + they dont block other own units anymore so the splash needs to go away balance wise and design wise.
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if you got ultras and the opponent has few units to stop them, pathing shouldnt be so terribad that the ultras lose
need shrinking so badly
dont forget splash would be slightly better vs them to counter the better pathing
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yeah, if you build like 10 of them, only like 3 actually attack, it sucks.
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Ultras seemed too small in Brood War to me. I'm glad they added the aoe/splash because it makes sense.
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Maybe make them smaller and able to merge with another unit, say mutalisks? Protoss has archons, why can't Zerg get something similar? The ultralisk gets what it needs: more mobility, the ability to deal with air units, and becomes a powerful late-game harasser. Give it wings, a bounce missile ability, increase the speed, and make it an upgrade at the Hive.
As for the name...
Mutalisk
+
Ultralisk
=
Ultalisk?
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Ultralisks should have a charge or leap where they push units out of the way. Im not going to make them ever again as broodlords is the goto unit everytime.;P
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the op is talking over the optic.
you guys talking over banlance.
this is one of many threads that show whats wrong in sc2 forum....
So @op your right i think they look really a little to big if you just watch a game.
What the over guys try to say is, that a change of a unit size, change it power in game.
A smaller unit cant be sourunded by mass small units and it can easyer come to front to fight.
So if its smaller its more powerfull in game.
and it goes on and on. i would bet 90% of tl user only read a topic not the text before they post....
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they're small, they look big because maps are small
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Well, it is fairly ironic that Ultralisks have blades that are 25 times larger than a Zealot's, yet they have the same range.
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A better fix would be to make it so that ultras can walk over other units like lings, that way both of them can attack at the same time.
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that's actually kinda strange that the OP mentions that ultralisks are too big...
because i think one of the first patches or at least one of the least betapatches made the models for the thor aswell as the ultralisk a bit smaller...
blizzard already nerfed their size because they both used to be bigger!
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Seriously, Ultralisks are a great unit, use it.
Try to figure out how to use it plz, instead of stating that Ultras need a buff and should be like the archon.
Ultras are good, So use them.
And before you make claims that unit X is underpowered please go to the blizzard forum and post a rep there.
Or ask the TL community how to use Ultras before you post that its underpowered.
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A number of models are simply too big, and produce clipping errors because the units are allowed to move too close together.
Ultras are an obvious offender.
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On November 25 2010 23:12 bonifaceviii wrote:
Ultras were fine until Thors were shrunk. Now, relatively, they are not fine.
Says the zerg player in an Artosis-like "Fair and Balanced (as long as Zerg is actually favored)" style comment.
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ultras need splash turned back up a few nothches, at least make it 100% splash to what it hits, it doesn't make sense that only 1 marine gets hit with full damage, while the rest of the 6 marines get hit with 30% damage... that's ridiculous - those snappers are much larger than only 1 marine, and they have the full force for all the other marines too.
blizzard fucking shit up as usual.
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I think the best solution is to give ultras a range of 3, but keep their attack animation. And change their attack damage so it doesn't hit units around them, but units around the one they are targeting, like the splash damage for archons. Obviously, they would change the rules for buildings so we don't have another fiasco. But why don't they just bring back the headbutt? It looked cool, added to the starcraft lore, and prevented weird bugs where the ultra killed all scvs around a PF.
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On November 26 2010 02:48 crw wrote:
ultras need splash turned back up a few nothches, at least make it 100% splash to what it hits, it doesn't make sense that only 1 marine gets hit with full damage, while the rest of the 6 marines get hit with 30% damage... that's ridiculous - those snappers are much larger than only 1 marine, and they have the full force for all the other marines too.
blizzard fucking shit up as usual.
what a logic. so make tanks deal full damage to everything and maybe + 100% to non armored units, cause it "doesnt make sense that only armored units get hit with full damage, while unarmored units get hit with less damage... that's ridiculous"
edit
reduce the ultra model but keep the collision size GG NO RE?
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On November 26 2010 01:33 Weken wrote:
ultralisk are really far to big to be cost effctive in big numbers. Because only a couple of them will be attacking unless the zerg gets a full surround this is because they are melee. I think that they should be slightly smaller or possible have a range of say 0.5 so they can get a better concave. However they are realy effective at killing buildings.
Actually they already do have a range of one (can be looked up in the editor, for comparison all other melee units have an assigned range of 0.1) this is also visible when placing zerglings attacking the same target because ultras can (if the target itself is small enough that is) attack that target as well right over the zerglings.
Increasing their range by another 0.5 to 1.5 might make their attack look a little ... weird. Apart from the aesthetics i dont think that zerg need a buff to their lategame, which has always been pretty much fine.
Something that should be noted about Ultras is that their collision-behaviour is acutally different for buildings and units (something rather unusual although not unheard of just think colossi for the most extreme example). Whereas they do have a unit-specific size of 1 (beeing the largest in the game among ground units) their building collision is actually only 0.75 which makes them easier to manouver between buildings than thors and tanks
I actually had to look it up to believe it but thors are indeed slightly smaller than tanks right now (0.8125 for the thor and 0.875 for the tank) ... which does feel kinda odd. (although balance wise i think the thor-size is fine)
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How the hell did this discussion derail in what ? 2 pages and it's about balance :S NVM
The unit may feel a bit to big been there and feelt that. But the unit is fine, they are a great freaking units overall I think, just not a "Lets A-move into the small choke with 12 ultras into thors/tank/rauders."
They need atm to be support by fungal and used on open areas, or even more awesome, on open arean creep. And personally I think it's good as it is atm. Making them smaller, would remove the awesomness of them : / Not sure how much it would affect the Z as matchup if they were smaller really.
They may be a tad bit non-useable in certain situations, I give it that.
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In BW ultraling looked fucking scary man. In SC2 what you get is often like 10 ultras clumped and some lings next to them. dunno it just doesnt have the same look to me.
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Ultras would be good if they were smaller. But I think they are still fine as long as there is an open area. But we zergs need to have a concave-ish shape with it instead of A-moving. But what I actually want is ultralisks being stronger against Marines just like they were in BW. Even 5-3 upgraded ultras just don't cut it against marines.
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I think we they could still reduce the size if they keep the bounding circle the same size, it wouldn't effect ballance but they'd clutter the screen less so you can see small units around them.
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they've been too big and clunky ever since beta, everyone complained but I guess blizzard doesn't want to reduce them. I'd like to see thors reduce in size too so the imba repair rate is nerfed
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If they were small, Tank splash would hit more than one of them at a time, which would *suck* for Zerg against mech play.
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The ultralisk size is a problen due to the map design. There are too many ramps, bumps chokes and things in the way. After like 2001 BW maps usually had a big area in the middle to flank ect. SC2 laddermaps are waaay to narrow everywhere and ultras makes this a bit more noticeable than other units.
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Funny to think that Thor was even bigger :O
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On November 26 2010 04:33 aka_star wrote:
they've been too big and clunky ever since beta, everyone complained but I guess blizzard doesn't want to reduce them. I'd like to see thors reduce in size too so the imba repair rate is nerfed
Thors are significantly smaller than they were in the early beta. The size being reduced was a huge buff and if they did it again it would be another big buff. When they're smaller they can move around a lot easier and also have more of them in a smaller area so instead of two thors firing and six fumbling around behind them you can have all eight firing at the opposing army.
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i think they should just work a bit of the ultra pathing from what i see... because the real trouble is how retarded ultras tend to be in battle (reason for me triying to never make them and instead just using broodlords if possible) and for the ones saying the thor should be bigger...
No. that would make thor`s way too good... why? cause even more scvs could repair it wich was the rreason of the nerf on size back then and is why blizzard haves considered reducing their size again so they dont have to nerf repair.
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I like that the Ultras are too big to be good against everything no matter what. Isn't it a part of Starcraft design philosophy to avoid "super units"? It's the limitations of the Ultralisk that makes it fit in Starcraft 2.
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On November 25 2010 21:15 Sueco wrote:
Really? Thors have a problem? They have 7 range.
It blows my mind that they got pathing help and the ultralisks were left to get stuck and loop around at the smallest of chokes.
the thors were made smaller the second time to nerf repair.
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Dude, ultras aren't all that strong. Sure when you first see the ultralisk, you're amazed, but if you just kite a few stimmed ultras, they just die so quickly. I almost never use t3 units as zerg now because they're really just not very good, and can often become a reason for your loss, instead of a clinching way to win. Broodlords now remind me of gaurdians from sc1, as they just die to stimmed marines and thors if they are focus fired
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On November 26 2010 05:14 LunarC wrote:
I like that the Ultras are too big to be good against everything no matter what. Isn't it a part of Starcraft design philosophy to avoid "super units"? It's the limitations of the Ultralisk that makes it fit in Starcraft 2.
non-armored units mixed in as meat shields (zealots/marines) counter ultras pretty hard.
also, mass marauder can kite ultra without ever getting hit pretty easily.
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I don't see anything wrong with making Ultras a little bit smaller, in reality they should probably be the same size as a Thor, not basically twice the size. They are so bulky and many maps are so tight they aren't even a viable option even if they would be the most effective unit choice because you can only fit at most 3 or 4 ultras wide in the choke points, sometimes as low as 1.
Edit: So BTW guys Ultras are immune to stuns/slows now, not sure how Marauders are kiting your Ultras.
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On November 26 2010 05:16 SichuanPanda wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with making Ultras a little bit smaller, in reality they should probably be the same size as a Thor, not basically twice the size. They are so bulky and many maps are so tight they aren't even a viable option even if they would be the most effective unit choice because you can only fit at most 3 or 4 ultras wide in the choke points, sometimes as low as 1.
Edit: So BTW guys Ultras are immune to stuns/slows now, not sure how Marauders are kiting your Ultras.
So don't engage with Ultras in a choke. Use other units. What's the problem?
On November 26 2010 05:15 Tazza wrote:
Dude, ultras aren't all that strong. Sure when you first see the ultralisk, you're amazed, but if you just kite a few stimmed ultras, they just die so quickly. I almost never use t3 units as zerg now because they're really just not very good, and can often become a reason for your loss, instead of a clinching way to win. Broodlords now remind me of gaurdians from sc1, as they just die to stimmed marines and thors if they are focus fired
...STIMMED ULTRAS?
Have you seen GSL3? There's some pretty awesome Zerg T3 play in there. It all comes down to how you engage, where you engage, and what you engage with. So you don't engage exclusively with T3, but with other units mixed in and you can use lings to harass expansions when you aren't attacking the main army.
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I just don't understand why they are bigger than carriers? I mean aren't carrier supposed to be interplanetary / intergalactic super ships? IMO it's kinda stupid how big ultras are, and how does it come out of the tiny little eggs? They should make the hatchery split down the middle and ultras come out! Since that egg is wayyyy to small
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Just use them in open areas. By the time you have ultras your opponent should have at least one base without a ramp on almost any map.
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United States17042 Posts
This is turning into a balance thread with 0 numbers, which is against guidelines, and this thread is degenerating.
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EPT
