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On November 18 2010 13:36 57 Corvette wrote:
Stalkers without micro are not very cost effective, but once you get blink or a decent number of zealots, sentries or immortals, they are great for surgical harrasment (blink up a cliff, kill workers, blink out) and are decent antiair & range support in PvP and PvT. They are not very good in PvZ, excluding if you are going for some kind of 3/4gate blink stalker build to punish roach heavy.
You need something in front of them though, or they will get rofflepwned by swarm units (zerglings, marines, possibly zealots) or stomped by anti-armour.
If stalkers are supposed to be an anti-armour T1.5 unit (aka poor man's immortal) , then why do they only do +4 damage to armoured over their regular attack.
The problem is that stalks can't really run away unless it's under certain conditions. And even that is only when you're attacking. If you're defending and you're short on zelots you're done. you have to give them the expo.
So what are stalkers supposed to be? is they're not supposed to be anti-armor, what ARE they supposed to be?
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On November 18 2010 13:36 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 12:35 GoldenH wrote:
9 stalkers: 1125 min, 450 gas
9 roaches: 675 min, 225 gas
Equal resources, roaches absolutely destroy stalkers. And that's before they get burrow regen micro. And now throw them in a choke. Suddenly not all Roaches are even fighting, while all stalkers are. And that's before they get Blink micro. Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 13:28 GoldenH wrote:
Both Terran/Zerg get their armored anti-armored ground unit at T1. Protoss waits until T2 (IMMORTALS!). Immortals surprisingly, don't counter either of the other armored anti-armored ground units, and are worse in other ways, but they are even against those units.
Immortals devastate Roaches o.o Not trying to discredit you, but it's true. Also, Zerg don't have an anti-armored ground unit till Ultras, Roaches don't do +armored damage, only Marauders and Stalkers do at T1 
Yes, because zerg will most definately fight at a choke? If you're attacking then just hold the outside of the choke and just expo, if you're defending just let them up the choke and wreck them.... I mean if you follow that logic then Marines>Zelots, just block ramp? If you're gonna give them very specific conditions then the outcome can be reversed for a lot of the matchup that's semi close.
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See, the thing is I don't think people utilize them to their full extent. People keep saying, "They're good against marines until marines get fully upgraded..." Well, why not fully upgrade your stalkers then by getting blink? Blink is awesome and when fully utilized, can be better than stim kiting because you get all of your weak stalkers to the back in massive engagements which can be huge because while their units are dying, you still have most of your stalkers if not weakened meaning you don't lose any DPS.
The thing is, you only see blink being used when its just stalkers. People have to start using blink in combination with zealots and sentries to get the most out of their stalkers just like you need marauders and medivacs and marines. You can't just have one unit and win in SC2 but it seems like that is all that people want to do. Try to do some blink kiting and you'll see just how effective the stalker can be.
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Using stim is a one time (maybe two in a prolonged battle) process. Doing what you (KotaOnCue) said in a engagement requires constant attention while using storm/forcefield/guardian shield while macroing is... in a completely differnet level. The reason people are able to do that in when there are only stalkers is because you don't have to worry too much about macroing at that stage of the game, since that's only early game. Or you're putting a lot in to the harass that you're doing, and the macro you're going to catch up real soon.
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On November 18 2010 13:45 TossNub wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 13:36 Seam wrote:On November 18 2010 12:35 GoldenH wrote:
9 stalkers: 1125 min, 450 gas
9 roaches: 675 min, 225 gas
Equal resources, roaches absolutely destroy stalkers. And that's before they get burrow regen micro. And now throw them in a choke. Suddenly not all Roaches are even fighting, while all stalkers are. And that's before they get Blink micro. On November 18 2010 13:28 GoldenH wrote:
Both Terran/Zerg get their armored anti-armored ground unit at T1. Protoss waits until T2 (IMMORTALS!). Immortals surprisingly, don't counter either of the other armored anti-armored ground units, and are worse in other ways, but they are even against those units.
Immortals devastate Roaches o.o Not trying to discredit you, but it's true. Also, Zerg don't have an anti-armored ground unit till Ultras, Roaches don't do +armored damage, only Marauders and Stalkers do at T1 Yes, because zerg will most definately fight at a choke? If you're attacking then just hold the outside of the choke and just expo, if you're defending just let them up the choke and wreck them.... I mean if you follow that logic then Marines>Zelots, just block ramp? If you're gonna give them very specific conditions then the outcome can be reversed for a lot of the matchup that's semi close.
Yes, because protoss will most definitely fight in an open area?
This goes both ways.
And if you happen to have a sentry or 4 you can make your own chokes.
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Stalkers may suck 1on1, but people are missing the point. This game isn't about units fighting 1vs1. The value of the role stalkers provide toss is quite invaluable.
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On November 18 2010 13:51 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 13:45 TossNub wrote:On November 18 2010 13:36 Seam wrote:On November 18 2010 12:35 GoldenH wrote:
9 stalkers: 1125 min, 450 gas
9 roaches: 675 min, 225 gas
Equal resources, roaches absolutely destroy stalkers. And that's before they get burrow regen micro. And now throw them in a choke. Suddenly not all Roaches are even fighting, while all stalkers are. And that's before they get Blink micro. On November 18 2010 13:28 GoldenH wrote:
Both Terran/Zerg get their armored anti-armored ground unit at T1. Protoss waits until T2 (IMMORTALS!). Immortals surprisingly, don't counter either of the other armored anti-armored ground units, and are worse in other ways, but they are even against those units.
Immortals devastate Roaches o.o Not trying to discredit you, but it's true. Also, Zerg don't have an anti-armored ground unit till Ultras, Roaches don't do +armored damage, only Marauders and Stalkers do at T1 Yes, because zerg will most definately fight at a choke? If you're attacking then just hold the outside of the choke and just expo, if you're defending just let them up the choke and wreck them.... I mean if you follow that logic then Marines>Zelots, just block ramp? If you're gonna give them very specific conditions then the outcome can be reversed for a lot of the matchup that's semi close. Yes, because protoss will most definitely fight in an open area? This goes both ways. And if you happen to have a sentry or 4 you can make your own chokes.
Stalks can't run away if protoss meets ling/roach army in a open field. But in both cases i listed up there zerg is given a choice. but in a open field protoss doesn't really have the option of running away unless he wants to lose 1~2 stalkers for free... Choke points are usually where you can make a decision of going in or staying out, but in a open field that's not the case
Yes i can make chokes with sentries, but that's another 400 gas... I guess just picked that off the ground? making that count of stalker/sentries means zerg will most likely have enough lings to over run the protoss even without roaches....
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On November 18 2010 12:35 GoldenH wrote:
9 stalkers: 1125 min, 450 gas
9 roaches: 675 min, 225 gas
Equal resources, roaches absolutely destroy stalkers. And that's before they get burrow regen micro.
Stalkers can't just be 1A'd. They need support from other units and decent micro.
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Stalkers are good units early in the game, due to their speed in range. Sadly, once every other race gets their t1.5 upgrades (conc shell, stim, roachspeed, lingspeed) or higher tier units, stalkers begin to lose out. Once that advantage is gone, what's left is an overpriced unit that trades badly against most other units, and upgrades poorly.
You make stalkers because they're your standard ranged unit that forms the core of your army. By cost, they're godawful. A large part of their mobility ceases to be relevant due to the slow speed of the other units in the P army, unless you're going for an all-in blink rush.
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On November 18 2010 13:36 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 12:35 GoldenH wrote:
9 stalkers: 1125 min, 450 gas
9 roaches: 675 min, 225 gas
Equal resources, roaches absolutely destroy stalkers. And that's before they get burrow regen micro. And now throw them in a choke. Suddenly not all Roaches are even fighting, while all stalkers are. And that's before they get Blink micro.
Not really.
(1) Roaches are smaller, and will go through a choke nicely. 3 to a file instead of 2 to a file up a ramp... which is actually just the ratio they need to win.
(2) Roaches have the same DPS... but their BURST rate is higher, they can stutter step better than stalkers, and so they won't be in a choke for long unless you get a good forcefield off. A good forcefield that lets them run away, not one that lets them kill you.
On November 18 2010 13:28 GoldenH wrote:
Both Terran/Zerg get their armored anti-armored ground unit at T1. Protoss waits until T2 (IMMORTALS!). Immortals surprisingly, don't counter either of the other armored anti-armored ground units, and are worse in other ways, but they are even against those units.
Immortals devastate Roaches o.o Not trying to discredit you, but it's true. Also, Zerg don't have an anti-armored ground unit till Ultras, Roaches don't do +armored damage, only Marauders and Stalkers do at T1
Its not true. Do some tests. In small numbers, they're equal in cost effectiveness. Only once you get 8 or so immortals do they become more cost effective, but thats like midgame and you've committed pretty heavily to a unit that can't shoot air or deal with zerglings.
And no, Roaches don't do +armored, but they're still do DPS according to the anti armored unit. Its just that they do full damage to everything.
Immortal:
cost: 250/100
dps: 13.8 against all units, 34.5 against armored.
health: 200/100 (+60 from hardened shield)
shots to kill 1 roach: 3 in 4.35 seconds
4 Roaches:
cost: 300/100 (400)
dps: 32 dps against all (28)
health: 580 health (507)
shots to kill 1 immortal: 23 in 11.5 seconds
Okay so the roaches are 400 resources instead of 350. The numbers in brackets fix it by this ratio. So, lets see what happens!
4 seconds: -80 shields to immortal
4.35 seconds: 1 roach dead
6 seconds: no shields, -16 health to immortal
8 seconds: -64 health to immortal
8.7 seconds: 2 roach dead
10 seconds: -96 health to immortal
12 seconds: -128 health to immortal
13 seconds: 3 roach dead
14 seconds: -144 health to immortal
16 seconds: -160 health to immortal
17.4 seconds: 4 roach dead.
So you end up with a 40 health immortal, but guess what, in bigger numbers it turns out to be pretty even, you'll only end up with 1-2 surviving immortals (depending on micro) until you get 8+, and you better hope there's no lings (Zealots will just be kited :D).
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On November 18 2010 14:00 jstar wrote:
Stalkers may suck 1on1, but people are missing the point. This game isn't about units fighting 1vs1. The value of the role stalkers provide toss is quite invaluable.
So tell me what IS the role of stalkers? That's what i'm trying to figure out. If i KNEW the role of a stalker i might use it more. In BW you needed goons for that ranged dmg even apart from the whole mine clearing/the only counter to vultures and lurkers. Because the idea of "auto surround" didn't exist. But in SC2 with all the auto surround, added zelots/sentries with the money i would've spent on stalkers seems SO much more useful in a main army fight. As for being harassers, lings will chase/kill me, and usually if i have a significant number of stalkers harassing, my opponent can just break my entrance easily. So, tell me what IS the role of stalkers?
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On November 18 2010 14:03 Gigazing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 12:35 GoldenH wrote:
9 stalkers: 1125 min, 450 gas
9 roaches: 675 min, 225 gas
Equal resources, roaches absolutely destroy stalkers. And that's before they get burrow regen micro. Stalkers can't just be 1A'd. They need support from other units and decent micro.
Stalkers don't need support from other units, they need to BE support for other units.
I know they need micro. But because they take so long to turn and shoot, with the 4 range, Stalkers can be at best equal to roaches with micro, when before, they were better.
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The role of the Stalker in early-mid game is to keep you alive. Because pure zealot sentry immortal can't do that.
That's the purpose, and it's a shitty one. Late game uses are Blink harass which is very situational, and AA for people who go carriers/voidrays or viking/BC. Really common as well, right? They are also to protect your colossus from AA...
I'm really hating my race, I've got to stop reading these stupid threads.
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I hear you bro, I'm waiting for the next patch, that's why I am qqing so much (sharing the facts) on these forums instead of playing 
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For as much fun as Stalkers are compared to other units, they do feel pretty lackluster. I attribute it mostly to just how ineffective they are against staple units of T/Z in many situations.
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On November 18 2010 14:03 Gigazing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 12:35 GoldenH wrote:
9 stalkers: 1125 min, 450 gas
9 roaches: 675 min, 225 gas
Equal resources, roaches absolutely destroy stalkers. And that's before they get burrow regen micro. Stalkers can't just be 1A'd. They need support from other units and decent micro.
Stalkers have longer range and hit air.
What am I missing here?
The answer is: yes, they're worth building.
With Force Fields, they easily pick off Roaches from a safe distance, especially in circumstances where you can completely trap Roaches and keep your army safe.
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I admitted in the starting post that i DO build 1~2 stalkers in the beginning of the game. But say after.... idk 6 min in to the game (being generous here) what do they do? Stalkers as a harass unit is a terrible idea. No splash, takes quite a few shots to kill the worker, and by the time they respond you'll be LUCKY to have 2 probe kills per stalker on average. making them quite inefficent harass unit.
Name a unit that you almost HAVE to build in the beginning to survive but becomes completely useless later (even a bunker is more useful since you can salvage for 100% return)
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On November 18 2010 14:04 TossNub wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 14:00 jstar wrote:
Stalkers may suck 1on1, but people are missing the point. This game isn't about units fighting 1vs1. The value of the role stalkers provide toss is quite invaluable. So tell me what IS the role of stalkers? That's what i'm trying to figure out. If i KNEW the role of a stalker i might use it more. In BW you needed goons for that ranged dmg even apart from the whole mine clearing/the only counter to vultures and lurkers. Because the idea of "auto surround" didn't exist. But in SC2 with all the auto surround, added zelots/sentries with the money i would've spent on stalkers seems SO much more useful in a main army fight. As for being harassers, lings will chase/kill me, and usually if i have a significant number of stalkers harassing, my opponent can just break my entrance easily. So, tell me what IS the role of stalkers?
In my current MUs:
Against terran, I build 2 stalkers in my build to prevent reapers, the rest of my build is immortal/zealot/sentry. Late game I build 6 stalkers to snipe medivacs and vikings. If he is going battlecruisers I do go mass Stalker since their last damage nerf to ground. Void Rays have less health and are easily yamatoed, so it's a practical thing.
Against zerg, I build 2 zealots and 1 stalker to make a poke at the FE zerg player and force him to make zerglings instead of drones for a bit, then run away. The stalker is there to do a bit more DPS to the queen while she is kiting the zealots.
I then build half zealot/half stalker for my next push while getting my expo running and Stargates up; I need the stalkers for the inevitable mutas and my Stargates just are too slow so I need to warp in more stalkers until I get 6 or so phoenix when I switch back to pure zealots/sentry. I also use my existing stalkers to prevent my zealots from being kited by zerglings (I know its sounds hilarious but I've had zerg players micro 2-3 zerglings to get a few zealots to split off from the group and then surround them, it works if there's no stalkers). But I don't build any more, unless he starts going Corruptor, then I need ~8 of them because they will kill phoenix/carrier and kite VRs to death, and they're OK against Broodlords.
Against Protoss I don't make any Stalkers after I get my expo up, I use a couple for scouting early game and to prevent my zealots from being kited if he fast 2 stalkers me. I build a stargate to make phoenix for scouting and make sure he doesn't try and VR me.
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I think the reason PvZ is imbalanced right now (IMO), is because protoss has no choice but to make quite a few stalkers to fend off roaches, and just in case mutas show up.
On the other hand, you don't need a lot of stalkers against terran because zealot/sentry is good against MM early game. Later, robo units are good against MMM.
So the strength of a protoss army in general is inversely correlated by how many stalkers it has.
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EPT
