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Americans "gg" too, by the way. In baseball, after every game people shake hands. In basketball, the Detroit Pistons once famously stormed off the court after losing to Michael Jordan's Bulls instead of shaking hands, and people took them apart for not having class.
But thats after the game.
Before or during the game? Say whatever you want. Just be prepared to back it up.
Thats the difference between "BM" in the whining/making excuses sense, and "trash-talking" which displays confidence and plays mind games and raises the stakes.
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The BW community is more matured than most other gaming communitys. Ppl respect their opponents and want to be respected by them too (comparable to Chess players). With the downfall of wc3 and the rise of SCII more and more young/new players flood the old BW community and thats one of the reasons we are seeing such an increase in BM lately. I dont want to say that all young/new players are BM but most of them dont know about the standards that come from early B.net Iccup days.
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On September 17 2010 04:08 Antares777 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 03:15 comis wrote:I agree with you ... but you're about to get flamed by 90% of the community  99.9% percent of the community more likely.
All the more to BM
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Ppl respect their opponents and want to be respected by them too (comparable to Chess players).
Check out some of the stuff Bobby Fisher used to say about his opponents if you think all Chess Players are always "respectful"
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Listen to interviews of the losing team in sports matches. Hardly ever does a football player say "oh, my team sucks, I was obviously better than the other quarterback" or even if they feel they lost because of a bad ref call, they don't belittle the winning team.
Swagger / bravado is entertaining. Being immature about losing and denying that anyone could possibly be better than you is not entertaining.
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BM is not trash talking. Trash talking is (As said above) used to generate interest. It's there to liven things up. BM is personally attacking someone AFTER the fact because they need to do something to feel better about themselves.
If you don't think Jordan had a personal manager that instructed and advised him into developing his persona (ie trash talking) and public relations .. then I don't know what to tell you.
BM is one person trying to emotionally hurt another person to make themselves feel better. It's sad.
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On September 17 2010 04:12 JrK wrote: BM is one person trying to emotionally hurt another person to make themselves feel better. It's sad. thanks for describing trash talking for us
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On September 17 2010 04:08 Misanthrope wrote: Bottom line is that people are attracted to drama more than brilliant gameplay. It humanizes the players and allows them to be individuals. It breaks a lot of social barriers, but it also encourages repeat viewers.
Look at organizations like the WWF. There is a great deal of athletic excellence involved in professional wrestling, they train hard to stay in shape and put on a good physical show. However, people always come back to see whether their favorite hero or villain will succeed in the newest event. There is tons of trash talk leading up to the matches, and it really heightens the effect of every blow. This is coming from someone that just detests professional wrestling for a number of reasons, but the effectiveness of this marketing strategy isn't disputable.
Progamers involved in international eSports don't have to take it to the same extreme to enhance the viewer's experience. They don't have to whine and cry after they lose, but a bit of posturing before a match on camera describing how they're going to demolish their opponent strategically, mechanically and psychologically really gets you psyched for your favorite player. I know it gets me on the edge of my seat every time.
Does all sports have to use the same methods to generate interest? If there are already several effective leagues using this method, why should a new sport try to use the same one? Isn't it better to use an alternative approach in order to pick up a different demographic?
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On September 17 2010 04:11 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Ppl respect their opponents and want to be respected by them too (comparable to Chess players). Check out some of the stuff Bobby Fisher used to say about his opponents if you think all Chess Players are always "respectful"
Bobby Fischer was fucking insane. Not really fair to judge a whole community by his actions. People are talking about trends here.
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Trash talk definitely makes something much more epic, just look at Chill VS Combat-EX showmatch. Without all that BM/trash talk leading up to it, no one would care. Instead, we get the show of a lifetime and an awesome cast by Day[9].
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On September 17 2010 04:12 JrK wrote:
BM is not trash talking. Trash talking is (As said above) used to generate interest. It's there to liven things up. BM is personally attacking someone AFTER the fact because they need to do something to feel better about themselves.
This sums it up quite well. A player trash talking before a match can be entertaining (to a point) and generate more interest in their matches and the sport as a whole. Insulting someone after you lose just makes you look like a sore loser and loses respect for e-sports (or any sport that it could happen in).
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The difference between, say, football and Starcraft is the fact that football is so much more widely accepted. If you talk trash in football, you just seem cool because you are playing something that people think is cool. If you talk trash in Starcraft, you just seem like a spoiled nerd. Being professional is so much more important in Starcraft because it is frowned upon to play videogames as your job. By being well-mannered, you're giving off the impression that you are someone to be respected, and eventually, Starcraft will catch on.
You can't tell me that if Starcraft continues to emphasize on being well-mannered, it won't catch on in America. That's fucking bullshit. Sure, you may not attract the audience that loves that stupid drama, but that isn't the whole population. Personally, I would be so unhappy if those douchebags who revel in that drama started plaguing the Starcraft scene.
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On September 17 2010 04:17 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 04:08 Misanthrope wrote: Bottom line is that people are attracted to drama more than brilliant gameplay. It humanizes the players and allows them to be individuals. It breaks a lot of social barriers, but it also encourages repeat viewers.
Look at organizations like the WWF. There is a great deal of athletic excellence involved in professional wrestling, they train hard to stay in shape and put on a good physical show. However, people always come back to see whether their favorite hero or villain will succeed in the newest event. There is tons of trash talk leading up to the matches, and it really heightens the effect of every blow. This is coming from someone that just detests professional wrestling for a number of reasons, but the effectiveness of this marketing strategy isn't disputable.
Progamers involved in international eSports don't have to take it to the same extreme to enhance the viewer's experience. They don't have to whine and cry after they lose, but a bit of posturing before a match on camera describing how they're going to demolish their opponent strategically, mechanically and psychologically really gets you psyched for your favorite player. I know it gets me on the edge of my seat every time. Does all sports have to use the same methods to generate interest? If there are already several effective leagues using this method, why should a new sport try to use the same one? Isn't it better to use an alternative approach in order to pick up a different demographic?
No. Tried and true all the way. Gaming nerds are the target demographic, not hicks sitting on their couch in the front lawn with their 45'' standard def TV hanging out the window with a kiddie pool full of water, ice and Bud Light.
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On September 17 2010 04:10 MetalSlug wrote: The BW community is more matured than most other gaming communitys. Ppl respect their opponents and want to be respected by them too (comparable to Chess players). With the downfall of wc3 and the rise of SCII more and more young/new players flood the old BW community and thats one of the reasons we are seeing such an increase in BM lately. I dont want to say that all young/new players are BM but most of them dont know about the standards that come from early B.net Iccup days.
More like the BW community is like an old Baptist church. Everyone pretends to walk the line and be all friendly and GM, but in reality they're all assholes.
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trash talk is great
insults and raging are not
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No. Tried and true all the way. Gaming nerds are the target demographic, not hicks sitting on their couch in the front lawn with their 45'' standard def TV hanging out the window with a kiddie pool full of water, ice and Bud Light.
Because clearly only rednecks like Football, Basketball or Baseball.
Or, you know, not, given that something like 100 million Americans, or about 40% of the population, watch the Superbowl.
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On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
^^This.
have you ever put on football gear... paint and all? gotten with a group of other guys dressed in a similar fashion with a head coach screaming ARE WE GONNA LET THEM TAKE OUR GAME FROM US?!?!?
so it's all in the hype.. hence.. your argument is invalid.. b/c like the quote above says... if you're behind a computer screen in your regular clothes all by yourself... theres no reason to be bm.. that's just nerd-rage, which people make fun of on Xbox Live.
about the idolizing? what? "Oh ya dude i totally wanna become a total dick when i get older"
Who wants to invite a bunch of players to try for $85,000 when all the players do when they lose is smash the computer because the chance is gone? No one.. that's who.
someone above also posted that some BM is joking bm... but at that point, it's not BM, it just jokes..... BM is chewing someone out because they play terran, or because you didn't scout their proxy gate... etc.....
All in all...whatever this thread has come to needs to be shut down because the BM is not wanted in tournaments.. or most people's lives... especially when they lose a game to cheese and the guy who cheesed calls them a noob for losing... so bm
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On September 17 2010 03:59 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA without BM would be... Dimaga
And IdrA is MUCH more interesting thanks to it.
dimaga is a likeable person. a guy who u can imagine it would be nice to hang out with and hence a person u can cheer for.
on lan events he also shows more emotion in front of the pc than idra. so how is he less interesting?
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This is the big difference between America and the rest of the world. When americans trash talk and do all that other bm, they think of it as being prideful. The rest of the world believes that to be extremely CHILDISH and that if you trash talk, you're ego is actually smaller than a person that doesn't trash talk because they have more confidence
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The difference between what you are describing in sports and the BM that people look down upon is the fact that they performed well and are trash talking because their game backs it up. A lot of the BM that goes around that is looked down upon is when people trash talk after losing.
A good example in the proscene is FBH. He celebrates after matches and the crowd loves him for it. He has his haters and his lovers all of which generate great publicity for him.
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