I don't get the obsession with "BM". It seems like every time a progamer does anything but keep their head down, say the "right" things at all times, and never ever talks trash or says anything cocky in any way, its "BM" and people get pissed off.
Maybe its just because I'm an American, but this makes no sense to me.
At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it. When two football players get in each other's faces and start talking trash, you don't hear the commentators saying "oh, bad manners, this is disgraceful." Its more like, "some heated trash talk going on, but thats how you know they're competitors." In the recent Monday Night Football game between the Ravens and Jets, those guys were at each others' throats, and had been insulting each other and talking trash forever in the run up to the game. Did it "tarnish" the game? No, it made it more exciting and intense. And afterwards, when the Jets lost, all the Ravens fans and players got to rub their nose it, and the same would have happened if the reverse had come to pass.
Michael Jordan was famous for his trash talk. So was Larry Bird. Larry Bird, before the first ever 3 point contest, walked into the locker room, looked at everyone and said, "So which one of you ********s is coming in second?" Then he walked out and not only won, but when he took the contest-winning shot, before it even had gone through the net he'd turned around, stuck a finger in the air for "Number 1", and started swaggering away like a badass. Did people complaing about "BM". No. They said, "Larry Bird is the fucking man."
Well, you might say, thats regular sports, not e-sports. So lets compare it to something a bit closer: chess.
The biggest chess celebrity in the history of America was Bobby Fisher. Now, Bobby was a prodigy and super-genius, which definitely helped. But he was also incredibly cocky, and has no problem with insulting his opponents and telling everyone he was better than them. Did people hold that against him? No. He was super popular, at least until he went bugfuck crazy later in life.
The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea, they may be horrified by someone acting cocky or insulting other people, but they sure don't over here. So, if people want progaming to take off in America, they can't just look at how Koreans do things and copy it exactly, they have to take into consideration what sort of behavior is popular over here.
TBH, The only "BM" that I find disgraceful is when someone loses, and then says that the guy they just lost too sucks. But thats not because of bad manners, it just because it seems like making excuses (looking at you, IdrA and Artosis). If you're gonna talk trash, do it before the game, and back it up.
But if someone, say, before a match in an interview was like, "I'm not really worried, because honestly, I'm waay better than this fool and I'm about to prove it." I would LOVE that. Or if someone at the start of the match, instead of saying glhf said something like "gl...cause you're gonna need it." I'd love that. if they backed it up it'd be badass, and if the opponent beat them, then they could rub their faces in it. The fact is, "BM" makes games more exciting, because they make it personal, and put pride on the line.
American progaming fans need to stop obsessing over how they do things in Korea, and look to American sports for inspiration. Americans don't care about "bad manners". They want drama and a sense that the competitors really want to destroy each other. Players with big personalities who celebrate and talk trash can only do good things for the future of the sport in America. In Korea, Firebathero was controversial, but over here he'd be like Chad Ochocinco, a guy who brings a sense of fun and celebration to the game and who gets himself a ton of fans.
I used to not like bm but I've grown to like it although actually unlike yourself I actually like the Idra and Artosis BM because it speaks the truth so I'm fine with it. But there is also a different between friendly or joke bm and serious business bm.
I think most of your examples would be like friendly bm except maybe the Bobby Fisher one which actually makes him sound like an asshole so I probably wouldn't like him too much
Its true there is trash talking in American sports but actually I find that the athletes that don't trash talk are usually more popular than those that do (if they are good). For example like Fedor in MMA is one of the most popular fighters and people always say how he says the nicest and coolest things.
I'm American and I don't idolize athletes for trash talking. I prefer people like Tim Duncan who are great and let their game do the talking. I'm fine with friendly trash talking that takes place, and I'd be OK with it in Starcraft, but to me bad manners are just that and I will never appreciate it.
The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
Coming from an FPS my mind blown at how thin skinned SC2 players are. Tastosis talked about it on the last GSL when the guy was dropping mules on the guys tanks, lol.
If what somebody says is true, I don't really see the problem with it, even if it is BM.
Frankly, I agree that Starcraft players are WAY too uptight about the whole "manners" thing. Certain types of BM are just obnoxious, but I see no reason why gamers should be asked to maintain some stupid socially-constructed idea of propriety at the cost of speaking their minds.
I think you already found an answer to your question: it's simply a difference in culture. American people tend to be very confident in themselves, maybe a bit too much. 'Trash talking' is not my idea of a fun game though. It shows a lack of patience and professionalism. Honestly I think anyone who goes around insulting their opponents is just making a fool of themselves.
On September 17 2010 03:19 jdwashere wrote: Coming from an FPS my mind blown at how thin skinned SC2 players are. Tastosis talked about it on the last GSL when the guy was dropping mules on the guys tanks, lol.
True....SC community is by far the best mannered one I've ever seen. After playing CS for a couple of years I just LoL at what the SC community considers BM. The things I've seen in that community would make baby jesus cry.
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
This is completely wrong. I hate it when people try to pull this "you're not as big as him, so you have no right to talk" bullshit. A pro football player talking trash is NO different than a pro-gamer talking trash. Both are the best at what they do, what gives one of them more right than the other? NOTHING.
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
I've never been a fan of any kind of gloating, verbally, physically, what have you, which is why I dislike people like Chad Johnson. It's just the way I was brought up.
I agree with your sentiment but I believe the resentment towards BM is simply due to the fact that starcraft revolves around Korea, and Koreans happen to have the attitude you described. Just as I believe that if a Korean were to watch American football, he would ignore his more respectful upbringing and go ape shit over trash talking from his favorite team.
Im from the UK and i 100% agree with awesomoecalypse. It would be so much more exciting to see players "bullying" their opponents in the Game when winning or even at the start
I cant disagree with this more, now i'm canadian not american so it's a little different, but I cant stand players like ochocinco, i mean seriously have a little class. its called being a bad winner/loser. Just look at wayne gretzky for a prime example, you'd never see him BM anyone, yet he is still the greatest hockey player of all time AND was extremely popular. The fact that americans love BM players has nothing to do with the BM, They love talent, and it just so happens the biggest talent is usually attatched to the biggest ego. Personally i quit xbox games because the BM is so horrific it actually ruins the experience for me, who wants to play MW2 with a 12 year old screaming profanities in your ear and teabagging you when he kills you, i know i dont.
TL;DR, BM ruins gaming
EDIT: I also personally beleive in being polite in general, there is no reason to act like a douche, if you win, you just won, your play just spoke for itself, if you lose, you were worse than the other player in that particular game, so deal with it. do unto others and all that jazz
BM is fine, everyone who's been a gamer for a while don't even bat an eye at online insults
Its the casuals who complain the most... It's pretty ironic that they look down on gamers IRL and then when casuals finally pick up a video game they're the first to cry about anonymous people saying mean things about them on the internet
Agreed. I'm not a BM person but i don't see all the fuss about it. It shows you how full these players are with convidence and determination. Its great to see this fire.
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
Speak for yourself, not for all of us. Honestly I find it disgraceful when people act like this. Its one thing to be confident in your abilities and to say that you think you will do well. Its another thing entirely to say every one else is a scrub.
What it all boils down to is you are not the greatest, there are people better then you, you are not a unique special snowflake, you are just another insignificant little speck that really warrants no attention just like everyone else.
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
This is completely wrong. I hate it when people try to pull this "you're not as big as him, so you have no right to talk" bullshit. A pro football player talking trash is NO different than a pro-gamer talking trash. Both are the best at what they do, what gives one of them more right than the other? NOTHING.
It's about what would happen if that trash talking became something more, like a fight. Your average football player in a fight would be much more entertaining to watch than your average progamer.
There's a difference between just trashtalking and personal attacks. Sure, a little trashtalking is fine, but when it goes to "You're a %($*ing noob" *ragequit*, that's leaning towards a personal attack which is just unacceptable in any type of competition. Leagues have standards that should be upheld, and it's easier to just enforce a "no bm" rule than to have to look at the chatlog and determine if it was just trash talking or if it was a personal attack.
Bad manner is a sign of emotional weakness and poor character. If someone is saying something bad mannered, they are making a choice to vocalize themselves in a way that they know to be purely negative. If they are choosing to do so, they must have such poor control of their emotions to where their emotions trump their logic. Anyone who allows themselves to act that way is weak in my eyes.
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea,
Sooo your way is the right way? The pure fact is that we are all humans and that being bad mannered is simply inacceptable in sports. Sure the beerdrinker faction with an IQ of below 60 will cheer more for violence (trash talking and the WWF), but do not expect the rest of the world to sink to this standard without putting up a fight.
Sports celebrities are idols for younger generations and thus they have responsibilities towards the next generation. Kids will behave as their idols show them to do, but without fully understanding the whole picture (i.e. that it is only for show). This will result in them using that BM-bullshit in their daily life and that is where it is NOT WANTED. If you dont recognize why this is bad I would suggest some real hard thinking.
I think even in american football players respect each other, so if they trash talk while the game is going, it's obviously because the heat of game. After the game ends they go back to their naturally "X team is a great team, we have to respect them...etc".
Meanwhile, in the heat of SC2, you can do whatever you want but trash talk, it would cost you a game =p. Meanwhile, BM before a match start or after is not rare in SC. See Firebathero... =p.
TBH, BMing has nothing to do with sportmanship, if you BM you're not a good sportman, you can be a badass, but not a good sportman.
If everyone was BM then the community would quickly degenerate into what WoW or Xbox Live is today, which is nerds talking trash. The Sc2 community is the most well mannered and high quality community of any game, and i like that. I cant see how anyone would prefer anything else.
I wouldnt compare it to sports, in sports BM is frowned upon aswell, atleast where i come from.
I'd turn it around and ask: why do people have a problem saying "gg" and glhf"? Takes you 0,5 seconds to write it, but for some reason you dont?
I don't think people bitch a lot about normal trash talk, however I'm glad bw (and sc2 to some extent) never resembled most fps/d2/xbox live (oh god) communities. The concept of GM/BM are really closely tied with sc and b.net 1.0 imo. And exaggerated bm/trash talk coming from a skinny white or asian nerd seems pretty awkward for some reason.
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
This is completely wrong. I hate it when people try to pull this "you're not as big as him, so you have no right to talk" bullshit. A pro football player talking trash is NO different than a pro-gamer talking trash. Both are the best at what they do, what gives one of them more right than the other? NOTHING.
It's about what would happen if that trash talking became something more, like a fight. Your average football player in a fight would be much more entertaining to watch than your average progamer.
I came from Command and Conquer and HON, and both were WAYYYYY more BM than SC2. Sc2 is nothing.. although I think the lower leagues are way worse in this regard than diamond
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea,
Sooo your way is the right way? The pure fact is that we are all humans and that being bad mannered is simply inacceptable in sports. Sure the beerdrinker faction with an IQ of below 60 will cheer more for violence (trash talking and the WWF), but do not expect the rest of the world to sink to this standard without putting up a fight.
Sports celebrities are idols for younger generations and thus they have responsibilities towards the next generation. Kids will behave as their idols show them to do, but without fully understanding the whole picture (i.e. that it is only for show). This will result in them using that BM-bullshit in their daily life and that is where it is NOT WANTED. If you dont recognize why this is bad I would suggest some real hard thinking.
I hate this argument so much. How about the parents teach their kids what's acceptable and whats not? If you don't realize personal morals are opinions than you need to do some real hard thinking.
@awesomoecalypse: you strike me as the kind of person that likes to watch UFC.
As to bm in SC2 and IRL. The reason why we find BM in sports entertaining is that it is a two way street. Most of the time when another player is badmouthing someone, the other one is going back at it (our minds justify it as being a fair exchange of BM). If only one player was insulting another, we'd call it harassment or "getting inside their head". Almost all occasions of one-sided BM stop within the first sentence (due to bad sportsmanship rules in every league).
Why are we so upset about BM in SC2? It's because it almost always is a one-way exchange. If both players were insulting each other, I wouldn't be so "disappointed in their behavior".
On September 17 2010 03:29 Gleen wrote: TBH, BMing has nothing to do with sportmanship, if you BM you're not a good sportman, you can be a badass, but not a good sportman.
This is supported by the definition of GOSU from the Liquipedia:
Gosu in Korean literally translates to "high hand" and it refers to a player with superior manner and skill.
Too many people only focus that term on the "skill" part of the definition, but the behaviour is in it as well.
i am happy with the way ladder is right now. (i am playing on the european server) i have played counter-strike before. everybody was swearing at each other.
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea,
Sooo your way is the right way? The pure fact is that we are all humans and that being bad mannered is simply inacceptable in sports. Sure the beerdrinker faction with an IQ of below 60 will cheer more for violence (trash talking and the WWF), but do not expect the rest of the world to sink to this standard without putting up a fight.
Sports celebrities are idols for younger generations and thus they have responsibilities towards the next generation. Kids will behave as their idols show them to do, but without fully understanding the whole picture (i.e. that it is only for show). This will result in them using that BM-bullshit in their daily life and that is where it is NOT WANTED. If you dont recognize why this is bad I would suggest some real hard thinking.
I hate this argument so much. How about the parents teach their kids what's acceptable and whats not? If you don't realize personal morals are opinions than you need to do some real hard thinking.
Lol have you ever been a kid? As a kid, did you listen to everything your parents said and ignore everything everyone else said?
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea,
Sooo your way is the right way? The pure fact is that we are all humans and that being bad mannered is simply inacceptable in sports. Sure the beerdrinker faction with an IQ of below 60 will cheer more for violence (trash talking and the WWF), but do not expect the rest of the world to sink to this standard without putting up a fight.
Sports celebrities are idols for younger generations and thus they have responsibilities towards the next generation. Kids will behave as their idols show them to do, but without fully understanding the whole picture (i.e. that it is only for show). This will result in them using that BM-bullshit in their daily life and that is where it is NOT WANTED. If you dont recognize why this is bad I would suggest some real hard thinking.
I don't get how people can say that athletes have a responsibility to kids/the younger generation/etc. They don't get paid to set a good example, they are paid to perform and cause revenue generating activities for their owners (ticket sales).
The fact is, professional athletes have no responsibility to set an example for the young people that look up to them. That is just your idealistic viewpoint - the athletes didn't choose or ask for people to look up to them.
Bad manner is a sign of emotional weakness and poor character. If someone is saying something bad mannered, they are making a choice to vocalize themselves in a way that they know to be purely negative. If they are choosing to do so, they must have such poor control of their emotions to where their emotions trump their logic. Anyone who allows themselves to act that way is weak in my eyes.
So Muhammed "I Am the Greatest" Ali, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, and all the other legendary athletes who were also famous trash talkers, are "weak"?
Clearly, you've got a different definition of "weak" than most Americans.
I think a bit of drama only helps attach more interesting storys to E-spots, a good guy like TLO is less compelling as a character (which is what he becomes) if he doesn't have a bad guy to overcome (like idra). A bit of BM is good for E-sports in my eyes.
On September 17 2010 03:23 Fa1nT wrote: They want SC2 to be a real sport.
Kinda odd, since in real sports, there is almost always a "the bad guy", that does stuff like headbutt people, punches people, rages hard at stuff .
wtf? what is good in all this things. maybe it would be entertaining for many people to see some sc nerds get laughed, trashtalked and kicked in the ass during the gym in school.
beeing entertained when someone gets bmed is just weak and a society where this kind of stuff is a ideal is a weak society imo. why we dont get back to the old rome and let some people slit their throat in a colosseum.. guess that would be entertaining for some guys too.
Honnestly I like the fact that overall the community is rather polite and mannered. It makes the eventual bm funnier and it's really great not to have everyone flaming and bming each other daylong. I'm from Wow and there everyone was being cocky and arrogant all the time, you get used to it but its pretty annoying nonetheless.
So, I would not encourage BM, I try to be well mannered most of the time, but it can be funny sometimes to see someone BMing as long as it is rare.
On September 17 2010 03:30 Deadlyfish wrote: If everyone was BM then the community would quickly degenerate into what WoW or Xbox Live is today, which is nerds talking trash. The Sc2 community is the most well mannered and high quality community of any game, and i like that. I cant see how anyone would prefer anything else.
I wouldnt compare it to sports, in sports BM is frowned upon aswell, atleast where i come from.
I'd turn it around and ask: why do people have a problem saying "gg" and glhf"? Takes you 0,5 seconds to write it, but for some reason you dont?
WoW actually had an awesome community until Blizz started handing out free epics and gearscore came out -_-. I hope SC never degenerates to that level. It gets kinda annoying when u have people in half ur scrims go on a rant about noobs and wallhackers (CS....lets not even get into public servers) or people in half ur instances rage about gear and ppl sucking when they're usually terrible themselves (Wotlk).
I don't get how people can say that athletes have a responsibility to kids/the younger generation/etc. They don't get paid to set a good example, they are paid to perform and cause revenue generating activities for their owners (ticket sales).
The fact is, professional athletes have no responsibility to set an example for the young people that look up to them. That is just your idealistic viewpoint - the athletes didn't choose or ask for people to look up to them.
Right, Charles Barkley had a famous ad where he just said, "I am not a role model. Just because I dunk a basketball doesn't mean I should raise your kids."
why do you think idra has as much attention as he does? because he plays solid? there are plenty of people who play absolutely solid and don't get half the attention he does or for that matter firebathero? i love FBH for the same reason everyone else does cuz he bms the fuck out of people and that causes people like much to bm him and its a lot more entertaining for the fans.
i bm people all the time when i'm in the mood. i'll just drop a hatch at their mined out nat after i destroy it. i wish you could chronoboost enemy buildings cuz that would be absolutely hilarious.
Bad manner is a sign of emotional weakness and poor character. If someone is saying something bad mannered, they are making a choice to vocalize themselves in a way that they know to be purely negative. If they are choosing to do so, they must have such poor control of their emotions to where their emotions trump their logic. Anyone who allows themselves to act that way is weak in my eyes.
So Muhammed "I Am the Greatest" Ali, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, and all the other legendary athletes who were also famous trash talkers, are "weak"?
Clearly, you've got a different definition of "weak" than most Americans.
The american way of being cocky in sport isnt something to emulate...
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea,
Sooo your way is the right way? The pure fact is that we are all humans and that being bad mannered is simply inacceptable in sports. Sure the beerdrinker faction with an IQ of below 60 will cheer more for violence (trash talking and the WWF), but do not expect the rest of the world to sink to this standard without putting up a fight.
Sports celebrities are idols for younger generations and thus they have responsibilities towards the next generation. Kids will behave as their idols show them to do, but without fully understanding the whole picture (i.e. that it is only for show). This will result in them using that BM-bullshit in their daily life and that is where it is NOT WANTED. If you dont recognize why this is bad I would suggest some real hard thinking.
I hate this argument so much. How about the parents teach their kids what's acceptable and whats not? If you don't realize personal morals are opinions than you need to do some real hard thinking.
EVERYONE is part of the teaching process and the parents are almost powerless compared to the media. So its not only the parents fault when the kids "go nuts" and start shooting other kids, but moreso the fault of the society which condones / idolizes violence as a way to solve problems.
On September 17 2010 03:31 Sl4ktarN wrote: What is the problem with a nice community?
There's nothing wrong a nice community, it's just that competition has the side effect of stirring strong emotion on both sides. Just because a player is extremely angry that he lost doesn't mean that he would shoot his (terran) opponent if given the chance.
The biggest difference I see between FPS (where shit talking is common) and SC gaming is that in an FPS, you can leave the game / server at any time and join another server. SC ladder you're stuck in the game with your opponent until it ends.
I am very happy that the SC community is so well mannered, it makes for a much better community overall then shooters where the entire community is viewed as raging 13 year olds screaming about eachother's mothers.
I enjoy a certain amount of entertaining BM before and after games, but I really don't want to see it become the norm and begin to spiral down.
for example FBH and idra are 2 of my favorite players, for completely different reasons then why I like Jaedong/Stork
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea,
Sooo your way is the right way? The pure fact is that we are all humans and that being bad mannered is simply inacceptable in sports. Sure the beerdrinker faction with an IQ of below 60 will cheer more for violence (trash talking and the WWF), but do not expect the rest of the world to sink to this standard without putting up a fight.
Sports celebrities are idols for younger generations and thus they have responsibilities towards the next generation. Kids will behave as their idols show them to do, but without fully understanding the whole picture (i.e. that it is only for show). This will result in them using that BM-bullshit in their daily life and that is where it is NOT WANTED. If you dont recognize why this is bad I would suggest some real hard thinking.
I hate this argument so much. How about the parents teach their kids what's acceptable and whats not? If you don't realize personal morals are opinions than you need to do some real hard thinking.
EVERYONE is part of the teaching process and the parents are almost powerless compared to the media. So its not only the parents fault when the kids "go nuts" and start shooting other kids, but moreso the fault of the society which condones / idolizes violence as a way to solve problems.
EVERYONE is part of the teaching process and the parents are almost powerless compared to the media. So its not only the parents fault when the kids "go nuts" and start shooting other kids, but moreso the fault of the society which condones / idolizes violence as a way to solve problems.
What the fuck does this have to do with anything? Are you seriously claiming that if Starcraft players act cocky and talk trash, its gonna lead directly to people shooting each other, and that this would somehow be the fault of those players and not of their parents?
I seriously hope you never have kids, if thats your attitude to a parents' responsibility.
Huh... didn't think people actually idolzied those who trash talked. I find it funny of course, but idolize it? Wish they did it(besides for laughs)? Heck no.
It's because people want to be nice, and want to be treated nice. If you lose, you have no reason to trash talk/bm them. You can be angry, but if you are that angry most likely they cheesed you, and you yourself could've easily won if you had scouted it.
It's because we're a nice community, and this thread makes me sad.
On September 17 2010 03:37 Arm4n wrote: why do you think idra has as much attention as he does? because he plays solid? there are plenty of people who play absolutely solid and don't get half the attention he does or for that matter firebathero? i love FBH for the same reason everyone else does cuz he bms the fuck out of people and that causes people like much to bm him and its a lot more entertaining for the fans.
i bm people all the time when i'm in the mood. i'll just drop a hatch at their mined out nat after i destroy it. i wish you could chronoboost enemy buildings cuz that would be absolutely hilarious.
They get attention because they're an anomaly...if everyone was BM then they'd get no attention because everyone does it. When someone talks shit in other games no one cares because 90% of other people are the same way. In SC most people are good manner so BM ppl stand out more. Personally I like it that way.
On September 17 2010 03:39 Shiladie wrote: I am very happy that the SC community is so well mannered, it makes for a much better community overall then shooters where the entire community is viewed as raging 13 year olds screaming about eachother's mothers.
I enjoy a certain amount of entertaining BM before and after games, but I really don't want to see it become the norm and begin to spiral down.
for example FBH and idra are 2 of my favorite players, for completely different reasons then why I like Jaedong/Stork
They get attention because they're an anomaly...if everyone was BM then they'd get no attention because everyone does it. When someone talks shit in other games no one cares because 90% of other people are the same way. In SC most people are good manner so BM ppl stand out more. Personally I like it that way.
But in a community where "BM" is the standard, the reverse happens--people with good manners stand out for it, and get applauded for their class.
People always bring up Tim Duncan in the NBA. But if everyone acted like Tim Duncan, he'd be nothing special (in terms of attitude...obviously he'd still bne a great player). its the fact that every other great player is so cocky and talks trash, and he doesn't, that makes him stand out for being classy.
>At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
Speak for yourself? I think its childish and off putting, then again, I find most of american culture to be pretty off putting (and yes, I'm an american).
Just think about what you said objectively for a minute. We expect people to be jerks? How is that possible ok?
They get attention because they're an anomaly...if everyone was BM then they'd get no attention because everyone does it. When someone talks shit in other games no one cares because 90% of other people are the same way. In SC most people are good manner so BM ppl stand out more. Personally I like it that way.
But in a community where "BM" is the standard, the reverse happens--people with good manners stand out for it, and get applauded for their class.
People always bring up Tim Duncan in the NBA. But if everyone acted like Tim Duncan, he'd be nothing special. its the fact that every other great player is so cocky and talks trash, and he doesn't, that makes him stand out for being classy.
or they tell those "upright assholes" to stfu like 4chan. We want good being the norm, we don't want to have to encourage it. And remember, usually TL prides itself on its nice, friendly community.
On September 17 2010 03:25 pens wrote: BM is fine, everyone who's been a gamer for a while don't even bat an eye at online insults
Its the casuals who complain the most... It's pretty ironic that they look down on gamers IRL and then when casuals finally pick up a video game they're the first to cry about anonymous people saying mean things about them on the internet
This is TL, and starcraft. Starcraft fans can be pretty hardcore.
I think a subtle, but important, difference is in the timing.
In American sports, players talk trash before the game/fight/match, but afterward the losers usually say, "Well they just played better tonight" and the winners tend to be gracious, "They sure were a tough team!"
In Starcraft, what people laud as "trash talking" starts AFTER the game: "Apologize for playing that race" and "You are the worst player I have ever seen." That's just immature and childish. And yea, I think that is bad manners.
If instead, some cocky American player came in and said: "Ima gonna cannon rush your punk ass" and then proceeded to back it up, people might have a different view on what is BM and what is legitimate trash talking.
People who BM are insecure with themselves and need some form of recognition. Usually this come in the form of beating someone at a game and then feeling good when they piss them off. They have to live with themselves...just say your gg and most likely you will never see them again.
Just move on to the next person and let them go back and laugh about their e-peen enlargment on 4chan.
I think certain things the community considers BM a lot of people view as a psychological aspect of their game. In FPS and MOBA you often have time to type out some type of poke or something else to get your opponent to tilt and play badly. With an RTS like SC2 I don't think this is a very good way to play the psychological game as taking your hand off the mouse at any time is just an awful idea. I prefer to play the psychological game with my gameplay rather than my typing.
I think some of the things that the community considers BM is slightly excessive but cursing someone out, putting them down or even offensive GG'ing is always bad.
Personally, I hate bad attitude in any sport. It's so tacky, and 99% of the time it's so obviously just empty talk from some fool who thinks he's all that - or worse, thinks it makes him cool. The other 1% of the time it just makes a decent player sound like an idiot. The only redeeming aspect of that 1% is that eventually they get shown up in a bad way.
The old saying says it all: "Actions speak louder than words."
Also... someone else must have read BM as "Bowel Movements," right?
I think a subtle, but important, difference is in the timing.
In American sports, players talk trash before the game/fight/match, but afterward the losers usually say, "Well they just played better tonight" and the winners tend to be gracious, "They sure were a tough team!"
In Starcraft, what people laud as "trash talking" starts AFTER the game: "Apologize for playing that race" and "You are the worst player I have ever seen." That's just immature and childish. And yea, I think that is bad manners.
If instead, some cocky American player came in and said: "Ima gonna cannon rush your punk ass" and then proceeded to back it up, people might have a different view on what is BM and what is legitimate trash talking.
I stated this in my OP, and agree 100%. "Trash talking" the guy who just beat you isn't "badass", its whining and making excuses. But acting cocky beforehand, and then backing it up with your play, IS badass.
I must be a natural pariah to this community, because like the OP said, it encourages competition.
Tsuroka brings up one good point though, often times in video/computer games, people take it to the next level. Telling someone they suck and you will destroy them because you are so awesome is one thing. Calling people (sand)niggers, faggots(not like joking fag, usually followed with a bunch of anti-gay BS), and that type of stuff is a whole other deal. THAT'S BM.
I think this community confuses what BM and trash talk are. They are NOT the same thing. Bad manners is being bigoted(likely not even related to the victims actual background). Trash talk is talking shit to get yourself, the opponent, and/or the crowd fired up.
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea, they may be horrified by someone acting cocky or insulting other people, but they sure don't over here. So, if people want progaming to take off in America, they can't just look at how Koreans do things and copy it exactly, they have to take into consideration what sort of behavior is popular over here.
They may be 'horrified'? What are you basing this on?
"But they sure don't over here". When people act cocky and insult people "over here", I get a little annoyed, actually. I'm not -horrified-, though.
Just because [arguably] the most popular sport in the United States has this 'cocky' attitude that seems to boast shouting, insulting, etcetera, as being "competitive", does not mean that if a sport that is more popular in another country starts becoming popular in the United States, that they need to "take into consideration what sort of behaviour is popular over here". Emulating the success of a sport in another country and bringing another culture's 'values' so to speak is not bad. In the US, progaming can evolve into a morphed mix of the two cultures' ways of doing things and the attitudes of things like 'cocky' and 'insulting' behaviour will find a nice medium.
I don't know why you want to claim people are "obsessed with BM". I'm a fencer and in fencing there is a very strong level of courteousness and most fencers have good manners. To not act "manner" in fencing is regarded very bad in the community similarly to how some people act about StarCraft.
On September 17 2010 03:27 G2Wolf wrote: There's a difference between just trashtalking and personal attacks. Sure, a little trashtalking is fine, but when it goes to "You're a %($*ing noob" *ragequit*, that's leaning towards a personal attack which is just unacceptable in any type of competition. Leagues have standards that should be upheld, and it's easier to just enforce a "no bm" rule than to have to look at the chatlog and determine if it was just trash talking or if it was a personal attack.
This is a good point. Even in professional sports repeating some of the common phrases you hear from BM players would get you penalties.
On September 17 2010 03:43 out4blood wrote: I think a subtle, but important, difference is in the timing.
In American sports, players talk trash before the game/fight/match, but afterward the losers usually say, "Well they just played better tonight" and the winners tend to be gracious, "They sure were a tough team!"
In Starcraft, what people laud as "trash talking" starts AFTER the game: "Apologize for playing that race" and "You are the worst player I have ever seen." That's just immature and childish. And yea, I think that is bad manners.
If instead, some cocky American player came in and said: "Ima gonna cannon rush your punk ass" and then proceeded to back it up, people might have a different view on what is BM and what is legitimate trash talking.
This is actually a really good point!
At least in the US, being a poor sport after the game is considered very BM. It's is entirely acceptable to talk shit before and even during the game, but if after the game you don't shake hands and be generally GM then you will get a ton of flack.
On September 17 2010 03:42 SnuggleZhenya wrote: >At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
Speak for yourself? I think its childish and off putting, then again, I find most of american culture to be pretty off putting (and yes, I'm an american).
Just think about what you said objectively for a minute. We expect people to be jerks? How is that possible ok?
The same way we idolize our asshole celebrities.
We don't expect that? Then we do we support the industries that pay them the millions that allow them to act like they do.
Drama = Ratings. That's why confrontation is such a spectacle for TV broadcasting. Think about any show you may watch frequently. Do you think shows live off of good feelings and farting rainbows? It's about the conflict... the battle of the two (or more) characters!
On September 17 2010 03:46 Rotodyne wrote: Probably because when you are trash talking anonymously from behind a computer screen you are a faggot that wouldn't do it in real life.
If Boxer went up to Yellow after the 3bunker rushes and smashed his computer onto the ground and started berating him it would be fine
This is the kind of talk that is BM. Classic "13 year old" (to quote other posters) style.
There's a big difference between trash talking and showing disrespect to your opponent. If you've ever seen an NFL post-game press conference the losing team always says the same things, such as "The other team played well, we weren't able to execute down the stretch...", etc. If there's a bad referee call they may mention it but they would never say "The other team got lucky with that call, we would have totally won if not for that". If they did, the sports media would blast them.
I personally hope competitive gaming doesn't get too much of that "american vibe". For me intense trash talk in sports is just plain childish and stupid. Well, cultural differences I guess.
Ignoring BM ignores the entire history of SC. The game has been built around GM. Just the way it is. We can discuss why it came about this way when so many other games are filled with asshats, but I for one am glad it did, and hope it can continue. It's one of the things that separates SC and its player base from all others.
On September 17 2010 03:39 Pandain wrote: Huh... didn't think people actually idolzied those who trash talked. I find it funny of course, but idolize it? Wish they did it(besides for laughs)? Heck no.
It's because people want to be nice, and want to be treated nice. If you lose, you have no reason to trash talk/bm them. You can be angry, but if you are that angry most likely they cheesed you, and you yourself could've easily won if you had scouted it.
It's because we're a nice community, and this thread makes me sad.
No, being nice for the sake of it is lame. Being nice is not the same as being respectful. It is totally 2 different things. Being nice as a suppressed personality isnt going to get you respect nor will you be interesting. Being nice because YOU WANT to be nice is a different thing.
aah, trash talk in video games, armchair warriors trying to incite emotions in their opponents, pathetic in some sports you could try to justify with publicity value, but to your random opponent in a game youre just plain annoying
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: I'm an asshole who loves this game but still want to rage on people with no consequences so I made this big post about it to try to garner support for me.
On September 17 2010 03:43 out4blood wrote: I think a subtle, but important, difference is in the timing.
In American sports, players talk trash before the game/fight/match, but afterward the losers usually say, "Well they just played better tonight" and the winners tend to be gracious, "They sure were a tough team!"
In Starcraft, what people laud as "trash talking" starts AFTER the game: "Apologize for playing that race" and "You are the worst player I have ever seen." That's just immature and childish. And yea, I think that is bad manners.
If instead, some cocky American player came in and said: "Ima gonna cannon rush your punk ass" and then proceeded to back it up, people might have a different view on what is BM and what is legitimate trash talking.
This is actually a really good point!
At least in the US, being a poor sport after the game is considered very BM. It's is entirely acceptable to talk shit before and even during the game, but if after the game you don't shake hands and be generally GM then you will get a ton of flack.
Yeah imagine if lebron not only didn't shake hands but called dwight howard a faggot and left. hahaha. Actually the post game handshake is pretty much the same thing as in game 'gg.'
I agree with most of what you say. Being cocky and insulting your opponent before the game is fine. It is a mind game that can work to your advantage. However after the game is over, if the player wins, then he was right saying he was better, but if he loses just suck it up don't BM further. To create hype and rivalries, meaningfull rivalries, BM is, well not needed, but very interesting. So BM before gaem, back it up, or suck it up.
I have never thought of stuff like "mule dropping someone's tank" as BM. Something like a player insulting another player's mother while in a game, yeah, that's BM. I'm pretty sure if I heard MJ yell that he was pleasuring himself with another player's mother IN the damn game, then yeah, I'd lose all respect for him too.
I don't know why you want to claim people are "obsessed with BM". I'm a fencer and in fencing there is a very strong level of courteousness and most fencers have good manners. To not act "manner" in fencing is regarded very bad in the community similarly to how some people act about StarCraft.
Nobody cares about fencing--and I fenced in college, so i actually like it. But ask 100 random people on the street to name a single fencer, and the closest anyone is gonna get is "Inigo Montoya".
What sports are popular in America?
Football - tons of trash talk Basketball - tons of trash talk Hockey - tons of trash talk Baseball - not quite as much as the others, but still a lot of trash talking Golf - before his downfall, Tiger Woods was the most popular golfer in America hands down, and he was famous for his "BM" and freaking out/cursing on the pitch Tennis - There's a reason Andre Agassi was more popular than Pete Sampras, even though Sampras was better. Agassi acted emotional, he said things he "shouldn't", he could get cocky, etc. Sampras always said the "right" thing and people called him a robot. MMA - tons of trash talk Boxing - tons of trash talk Nascar - tons of trash talk
Face it, the American mainstream likes great athletes to be a little bit cocky, to show their emotions and, yes, to talk some trash from time to time.
Remember when Usain Bolt slowed down during a sprint to show off how much faster he was than the other runners? People ate that up. Greatness will always make you famous, but greatness, with a dash of cockiness, will make you a legend.
I've never really understood it. But I'm generally pretty nice to most people. I don't go "OMG BM!" everytime someone leaves without a GG or says something in game. People get a little too uptight sometimes
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
I don't think many things are considered BM, but an awful lot of people hurl unbelievable abuse at people when they lose. Things you'd never say to anyone in real life.
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea,
Sooo your way is the right way? The pure fact is that we are all humans and that being bad mannered is simply inacceptable in sports. Sure the beerdrinker faction with an IQ of below 60 will cheer more for violence (trash talking and the WWF), but do not expect the rest of the world to sink to this standard without putting up a fight.
Sports celebrities are idols for younger generations and thus they have responsibilities towards the next generation. Kids will behave as their idols show them to do, but without fully understanding the whole picture (i.e. that it is only for show). This will result in them using that BM-bullshit in their daily life and that is where it is NOT WANTED. If you dont recognize why this is bad I would suggest some real hard thinking.
I hate this argument so much. How about the parents teach their kids what's acceptable and whats not? If you don't realize personal morals are opinions than you need to do some real hard thinking.
EVERYONE is part of the teaching process and the parents are almost powerless compared to the media. So its not only the parents fault when the kids "go nuts" and start shooting other kids, but moreso the fault of the society which condones / idolizes violence as a way to solve problems.
Idra not GGing will lead to school shootings.
A lot of drops will form a river and a river will make a canyon with time. It is as Edmund Burke said roughly 240 years ago in his "Thoughts on present discontent":
When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.
Bad men in this case are bad mannered players and their raging fans who only watch certain movies, sport, news because of the scandal and drama, bigger explosions, death counts and rivers of blood. So now "we" have to say NO to BM in games from players or the game will eventually deteriorate into a joke like the WWF, where the trash talk is more important than the actual game. IdrA has quite a lot of fans for his BM already ...
Idra bad mannering during games is one small drop which teaches kids that it is OK to be aggressive like that against people who didnt do anything to deserve it. As Silver said [roughly] "I only want to play the game" after Idra was trashtalking to him that all Terrans should apologize for playing the race. Its not the GGs which make Idra BM, its the "other" serious bullshit he does say.
On September 17 2010 03:41 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: Trash talk doesn't have to be hurtful. It can be playful and simply a mind game. Take a look at good ol' Michael in this video.
There's a difference between trash talking in-game and not. Trash talking during a game can be effectively used to psyche out an opponent, since your performance will suffer if you let yourself get distracted in the middle of a game, or if you get angry and lose focus.
But most of the BM in sc2 doesn't come from trash-talking in-game. It comes at the end of the game, almost exclusively from the loser, and it's almost always personal insults. That's not trash-talking, that's BM and being a sore loser. There's a difference.
Imagine if after every game he lost, Michael Jordan ran up to the other team and started screaming "FAGGOT". He would probably receive disciplinary action, or at the very least start a fight. Neither happens in starcraft.
On September 17 2010 03:22 OPSavioR wrote: bad manner = immature
Agreed.
It's okay to have some pre-game banter or to leave without saying gg, i just think it's silly when people are all "nice hacks nerd, you beat me cuz i have a life"
I think you can't compare BM in starcraft to BM in sports. If you are face to face with someone from more or less the same culture, it is easy to judge whether you can expect to engage in some artful trash talking together or not. But when you're online and playing someone who might or might not be from a completely different culture than you, it is a lot harder to know how your banter will be interpreted. Hurling insults at a stranger who doesn't know what that's all about doesn't serve much purpose and just makes the other guy feel miserable: not funny. If you know what kind of person you're playing, it's a different matter. Just my two cents.
Its just a sign of respect to be good mannered. Also for progamers, it would just look childish if everyone acted like Idra when they lost. Progamers get paid and its their job to be good and be good mannerd and to represent their team and their sponsors well.
On September 17 2010 03:51 awesomoecalypse wrote: Golf - before his downfall, Tiger Woods was the most popular golfer in America hands down, and he was famous for his "BM" and freaking out/cursing on the pitch
You seriously believe Tiger Woods was famous for his BM above all else? He was/is famous because he absolutely manhandled everyone else on the course, not because he got mad at a few stray shots. In fact, he was so good at the game that I'm pretty sure there is no way to quantify if him being bad mannered or not has any effect on his legendary status.
I think a lot of people overlook the fact that GG and GLHF are English abbreviations that originated from English speaking gamers. A decade ago it was common for these terms to be used in any genre of online game, even in FPS's.
IMO it's the prevelance of kids in a gaming community that dicates whether there's manners or not. In RTS games it takes years to get skilled so the people that do stick around become more mannered than they were when they started. In other genre's the game popularity can blow up when it's released and then quickly die off when the next best thing replaces it 2 months later without ever developing a community standard for behavior.
I personally hate excessive GM or BM and prefer a middleground where people are generally well behaved but can do joking rages semi-frequently or real rages occasionally. Everybody gets pissed sometimes and I don't think you should hide it like Asian cultures do but I don't think you should act like a 12 year old either.
I actually like BM in every single contest, because it makes the contest much more worthy to watch. And the only problem in Starcraft is that there is no fucking BM in it.
For example, I BMed a lot in FM tournaments, mostly like:
After winning a noob with a lower class team with worse players compared to his team, and the score was 5-0:
"He played well, but he was unlucky. By the way, what I meant is he was unlucky with brackets, not with gameplay".
Or:
"He did everything well, and he made only 1 mistake for the whole game: Thinking that he had a chance".
Or:
(Before the game) There will be a huge margin, prepare yourselves. (After getting an arranged defeat of 13-1) I told that there would be a huge margin.
Btw, That 13-1 defeat was after I guaranteed the 1st place in groups and I just wanted some mofo not to pass the group stage (he made me play with 4 injured first team players, and he whined and raged all day long in the forum ).
But who thinks that this is bad ?! Except some forum moforators who banned me for throwing a game.
I am actually more fed up with the manner police than any bad manner i've encountered. When someone decides to bitch about not being wished GL or seeing a gg after the game is over and make a big deal out of it then he is the one without manner. This type of whine is usually followed by an appropriately korean "T_T". Honestly people who are actually mannered would do whatever ritual they like at the start of every game(or none at all) and shut the fuck up until it's over, then say gg if you feel like it and leave. Feel free to replace the "shut the fuck up"-part with chat, followed by once again shutting the fuck up when the other guy doesn't answer.
Unfortunately trash talk does not translate into trash typing. Trash typing doesn't work the same way, your sitting behind a computer many miles away from your opponent - there is no emotion conveyed, no tone, no setting, no facial features. Which then leaves so much ambiguity to the statements made and more often then not people will judge the worst out of a person when there is no real context. In a Lan event I can see trash talking working, if you really want to BM your opponent and trash him up outplay the fuck out of them and then drop mules, bring all your overlords to hang out, etc.. That is the only reasonable way to BM your opponent in SC2.
I think when players talk trash outside like before or after games, it is not very cool.
However, while in game I think when players all talking trash its good, like linebackers talking shit to the QB and stuff like that. I like to talk trash while owning people in Dota...see how fast I make em rage quit.
I don't see the point in BMing. It just makes you look like a douche and shows (in some cases publicly) deficiencies in your personality.
Saying someone sucks because they cheesed you is absurd. For all you know they could be experimenting with builds or *god forbid* just having fun playing an ultra-aggressive play style. (After all SC2 is a game remember? Some people like to have fun while playing and people find different strategies and styles fun)
If someone says in an interview "i think that I am a better player so I expect to win this series" there's no bm there, but insulting your opponent or saying they suck or are noob after they beat you is so childish and shows how mentally and psychologically underdeveloped you are to a random stranger. Its pretty embarrassing really.
The whole argument that trash talking is part of American culture thus should be accepted is riiiiidiculous lol. Slavery was a part of American culture too for much longer than trash talking. Want to try the same line of reasoning there?
Bottom line is if you're a douche with the psychological/emotional development of a fifth grader then BM all you want. Just know that you're embarrassing yourself and are probably not a quality human being.
You can't compare this to trash talking in sports though because there is an understanding between athletes that trash talk is a way to get amped up for physical competition. There is no such agreement in gaming nor need there be as adrenaline boosts gained from this sort of behaviour are likely more harmful than helpful.
People who tend to spend all day on the Internet and playing video games are somewhat effeminate. Testosterone filled men are extremely aggressive and while they respect each other's ability on the field, they talk like men, act like men, and scratch themselves like men.
It is so ridiculous that not typing the letters 'gg' is considered 'bad mannered'. Did these people grow up never breaking a 'rule' in their life? Did they never get in trouble as kids? Why are they so docile?
It is one thing to act like a 13 year old Bnet trash punk which is not just unacceptable but uncivilized. No one likes that 13 year old talk. But real men talk is fun....
...unless you wear a skirt.
One common thing video game players do is idolize some Eastern country. In the 80s and 90s, it was Japan. For Starcraft, it is obviously South Korea. The entire stupid 'gg' began because the kids began to emulate the Koreans. They probably thought they were 'highly cultured' by typing random letters at the start and at the end of games. If your mother language is English, then not typing English makes you sound like a 9 year old on AOL.
I'm not in Korea. Why the heck should I talk like they do or act like they do? And why are people so arrogant to believe there is a 'right' way and 'wrong' way how to 'act' during my games online?
A bit of "trash-talk" before a match or series is fun and adds hype to the match, sure, but I don't want drama or any level of animosity between players.
If you are going to BM, Do it in lan.... fucking dare you to do it to incontrol lol. Doing it from behind your computer is just pussy so shut up and dont bm. But in a serious note. Bm is pretty much an American thing. i doubt its going to stop, ever. But in the starcraft community Bm is frowned upon coz starcraft gamers have a better IQ and understanding and therefore people expect manners. Also reputation is at stake, Look at Idra. People don't have a good impression of him for a reason.
I'm sorry, but I'd like to be able to watch the pro's playing without them behaving like cavemen. Similarly, I like to be able to play without being drawn into an ego contest. Call me naive, but I like to believe there is a reason to compete that is fueled by intellect, curiosity and a will to perform, not just pure testosterone. Trashtalking speaks only of the latter.
There's a difference between taunting (aforementioned dropping mules on tanks, /dance command, etc) and being an ass. Taunting can be funny (to observers and even the player being taunted) and can be used to throw them off their game. Trashtalking is an immature attempt at doing the same, just without actually being funny.
Should trashtalking be allowed in the pro circuit? Yes. Should it be encouraged? Fuck no. Unless we want SC2 to be the next WWF, keep that shit out of the game.
On September 17 2010 04:02 Macavity wrote: To the OP:
People who tend to spend all day on the Internet and playing video games are somewhat effeminate. Testosterone filled men are extremely aggressive and while they respect each other's ability on the field, they talk like men, act like men, and scratch themselves like men.
It is so ridiculous that not typing the letters 'gg' is considered 'bad mannered'. Did these people grow up never breaking a 'rule' in their life? Did they never get in trouble as kids? Why are they so docile?
It is one thing to act like a 13 year old Bnet trash punk which is not just unacceptable but uncivilized. No one likes that 13 year old talk. But real men talk is fun....
...unless you wear a skirt.
One common thing video game players do is idolize some Eastern country. In the 80s and 90s, it was Japan. For Starcraft, it is obviously South Korea. The entire stupid 'gg' began because the kids began to emulate the Koreans. They probably thought they were 'highly cultured' by typing random letters at the start and at the end of games. If your mother language is English, then not typing English makes you sound like a 9 year old on AOL.
I'm not in Korea. Why the heck should I talk like they do or act like they do? And why are people so arrogant to believe there is a 'right' way and 'wrong' way how to 'act' during my games online?
.....'gg' began because of the Koreans? Not because it was nice to say "good game" after a good game? Hey dude, I like to high five my opponents after playing football with them. I guess I learned that from the Koreans too?
BM is good for the viewers because after a good BM at the start you might consider rooting for one of those two to win the match , it makes it more exciting,
Like somebody said in this thread already BM =immature
BM in live situations is great for the viewers, and can encourage the players to live up to their own words. Bottom line is that people are attracted to drama as well as brilliant gameplay. It humanizes the players and allows them to be individuals. It breaks a lot of social barriers, but it also encourages repeat viewers.
Take the success of the WWF's marketing strategy as an example. There is a great deal of athletic excellence involved in professional wrestling, they train hard to stay in shape and put on a good physical show. However, people always come back to see whether their favorite hero or villain will succeed in the newest event. There is tons of trash talk leading up to the matches, and it really heightens the effect of every blow. This is coming from someone that detests professional wrestling for a number of reasons, but the effectiveness of this marketing strategy isn't disputable.
Pro-gamers involved in international e-Sports don't have to take it to the same extreme to enhance the viewer's experience. They don't have to whine and cry after they lose, but a bit of posturing before a match on camera is awesome. Describing how they're going to demolish their opponent strategically, mechanically and psychologically really gets you psyched for your favorite player. I know it gets me on the edge of my seat every time.
On September 17 2010 04:02 Macavity wrote: To the OP:
People who tend to spend all day on the Internet and playing video games are somewhat effeminate. Testosterone filled men are extremely aggressive and while they respect each other's ability on the field, they talk like men, act like men, and scratch themselves like men.
It is so ridiculous that not typing the letters 'gg' is considered 'bad mannered'. Did these people grow up never breaking a 'rule' in their life? Did they never get in trouble as kids? Why are they so docile?
It is one thing to act like a 13 year old Bnet trash punk which is not just unacceptable but uncivilized. No one likes that 13 year old talk. But real men talk is fun....
...unless you wear a skirt.
One common thing video game players do is idolize some Eastern country. In the 80s and 90s, it was Japan. For Starcraft, it is obviously South Korea. The entire stupid 'gg' began because the kids began to emulate the Koreans. They probably thought they were 'highly cultured' by typing random letters at the start and at the end of games. If your mother language is English, then not typing English makes you sound like a 9 year old on AOL.
I'm not in Korea. Why the heck should I talk like they do or act like they do? And why are people so arrogant to believe there is a 'right' way and 'wrong' way how to 'act' during my games online?
In this post: machismo and ignorance.
Post match congratulations/handshakes, apparently, did not come into being through centuries of sports, but were invented by the Koreans. In English, no less.
Americans "gg" too, by the way. In baseball, after every game people shake hands. In basketball, the Detroit Pistons once famously stormed off the court after losing to Michael Jordan's Bulls instead of shaking hands, and people took them apart for not having class.
But thats after the game.
Before or during the game? Say whatever you want. Just be prepared to back it up.
Thats the difference between "BM" in the whining/making excuses sense, and "trash-talking" which displays confidence and plays mind games and raises the stakes.
The BW community is more matured than most other gaming communitys. Ppl respect their opponents and want to be respected by them too (comparable to Chess players). With the downfall of wc3 and the rise of SCII more and more young/new players flood the old BW community and thats one of the reasons we are seeing such an increase in BM lately. I dont want to say that all young/new players are BM but most of them dont know about the standards that come from early B.net Iccup days.
Listen to interviews of the losing team in sports matches. Hardly ever does a football player say "oh, my team sucks, I was obviously better than the other quarterback" or even if they feel they lost because of a bad ref call, they don't belittle the winning team.
Swagger / bravado is entertaining. Being immature about losing and denying that anyone could possibly be better than you is not entertaining.
BM is not trash talking. Trash talking is (As said above) used to generate interest. It's there to liven things up. BM is personally attacking someone AFTER the fact because they need to do something to feel better about themselves.
If you don't think Jordan had a personal manager that instructed and advised him into developing his persona (ie trash talking) and public relations .. then I don't know what to tell you.
BM is one person trying to emotionally hurt another person to make themselves feel better. It's sad.
On September 17 2010 04:08 Misanthrope wrote: Bottom line is that people are attracted to drama more than brilliant gameplay. It humanizes the players and allows them to be individuals. It breaks a lot of social barriers, but it also encourages repeat viewers.
Look at organizations like the WWF. There is a great deal of athletic excellence involved in professional wrestling, they train hard to stay in shape and put on a good physical show. However, people always come back to see whether their favorite hero or villain will succeed in the newest event. There is tons of trash talk leading up to the matches, and it really heightens the effect of every blow. This is coming from someone that just detests professional wrestling for a number of reasons, but the effectiveness of this marketing strategy isn't disputable.
Progamers involved in international eSports don't have to take it to the same extreme to enhance the viewer's experience. They don't have to whine and cry after they lose, but a bit of posturing before a match on camera describing how they're going to demolish their opponent strategically, mechanically and psychologically really gets you psyched for your favorite player. I know it gets me on the edge of my seat every time.
Does all sports have to use the same methods to generate interest? If there are already several effective leagues using this method, why should a new sport try to use the same one? Isn't it better to use an alternative approach in order to pick up a different demographic?
Trash talk definitely makes something much more epic, just look at Chill VS Combat-EX showmatch. Without all that BM/trash talk leading up to it, no one would care. Instead, we get the show of a lifetime and an awesome cast by Day[9].
BM is not trash talking. Trash talking is (As said above) used to generate interest. It's there to liven things up. BM is personally attacking someone AFTER the fact because they need to do something to feel better about themselves.
This sums it up quite well. A player trash talking before a match can be entertaining (to a point) and generate more interest in their matches and the sport as a whole. Insulting someone after you lose just makes you look like a sore loser and loses respect for e-sports (or any sport that it could happen in).
The difference between, say, football and Starcraft is the fact that football is so much more widely accepted. If you talk trash in football, you just seem cool because you are playing something that people think is cool. If you talk trash in Starcraft, you just seem like a spoiled nerd. Being professional is so much more important in Starcraft because it is frowned upon to play videogames as your job. By being well-mannered, you're giving off the impression that you are someone to be respected, and eventually, Starcraft will catch on.
You can't tell me that if Starcraft continues to emphasize on being well-mannered, it won't catch on in America. That's fucking bullshit. Sure, you may not attract the audience that loves that stupid drama, but that isn't the whole population. Personally, I would be so unhappy if those douchebags who revel in that drama started plaguing the Starcraft scene.
On September 17 2010 04:08 Misanthrope wrote: Bottom line is that people are attracted to drama more than brilliant gameplay. It humanizes the players and allows them to be individuals. It breaks a lot of social barriers, but it also encourages repeat viewers.
Look at organizations like the WWF. There is a great deal of athletic excellence involved in professional wrestling, they train hard to stay in shape and put on a good physical show. However, people always come back to see whether their favorite hero or villain will succeed in the newest event. There is tons of trash talk leading up to the matches, and it really heightens the effect of every blow. This is coming from someone that just detests professional wrestling for a number of reasons, but the effectiveness of this marketing strategy isn't disputable.
Progamers involved in international eSports don't have to take it to the same extreme to enhance the viewer's experience. They don't have to whine and cry after they lose, but a bit of posturing before a match on camera describing how they're going to demolish their opponent strategically, mechanically and psychologically really gets you psyched for your favorite player. I know it gets me on the edge of my seat every time.
Does all sports have to use the same methods to generate interest? If there are already several effective leagues using this method, why should a new sport try to use the same one? Isn't it better to use an alternative approach in order to pick up a different demographic?
No. Tried and true all the way. Gaming nerds are the target demographic, not hicks sitting on their couch in the front lawn with their 45'' standard def TV hanging out the window with a kiddie pool full of water, ice and Bud Light.
On September 17 2010 04:10 MetalSlug wrote: The BW community is more matured than most other gaming communitys. Ppl respect their opponents and want to be respected by them too (comparable to Chess players). With the downfall of wc3 and the rise of SCII more and more young/new players flood the old BW community and thats one of the reasons we are seeing such an increase in BM lately. I dont want to say that all young/new players are BM but most of them dont know about the standards that come from early B.net Iccup days.
More like the BW community is like an old Baptist church. Everyone pretends to walk the line and be all friendly and GM, but in reality they're all assholes.
No. Tried and true all the way. Gaming nerds are the target demographic, not hicks sitting on their couch in the front lawn with their 45'' standard def TV hanging out the window with a kiddie pool full of water, ice and Bud Light.
Because clearly only rednecks like Football, Basketball or Baseball.
Or, you know, not, given that something like 100 million Americans, or about 40% of the population, watch the Superbowl.
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
^^This.
have you ever put on football gear... paint and all? gotten with a group of other guys dressed in a similar fashion with a head coach screaming ARE WE GONNA LET THEM TAKE OUR GAME FROM US?!?!?
so it's all in the hype.. hence.. your argument is invalid.. b/c like the quote above says... if you're behind a computer screen in your regular clothes all by yourself... theres no reason to be bm.. that's just nerd-rage, which people make fun of on Xbox Live.
about the idolizing? what? "Oh ya dude i totally wanna become a total dick when i get older"
Who wants to invite a bunch of players to try for $85,000 when all the players do when they lose is smash the computer because the chance is gone? No one.. that's who.
someone above also posted that some BM is joking bm... but at that point, it's not BM, it just jokes..... BM is chewing someone out because they play terran, or because you didn't scout their proxy gate... etc.....
All in all...whatever this thread has come to needs to be shut down because the BM is not wanted in tournaments.. or most people's lives... especially when they lose a game to cheese and the guy who cheesed calls them a noob for losing... so bm
This is the big difference between America and the rest of the world. When americans trash talk and do all that other bm, they think of it as being prideful. The rest of the world believes that to be extremely CHILDISH and that if you trash talk, you're ego is actually smaller than a person that doesn't trash talk because they have more confidence
The difference between what you are describing in sports and the BM that people look down upon is the fact that they performed well and are trash talking because their game backs it up. A lot of the BM that goes around that is looked down upon is when people trash talk after losing.
A good example in the proscene is FBH. He celebrates after matches and the crowd loves him for it. He has his haters and his lovers all of which generate great publicity for him.
No. Tried and true all the way. Gaming nerds are the target demographic, not hicks sitting on their couch in the front lawn with their 45'' standard def TV hanging out the window with a kiddie pool full of water, ice and Bud Light.
Because clearly only rednecks like Football, Basketball or Baseball.
Or, you know, not, given that something like 100 million Americans, or about 40% of the population, watch the Superbowl.
The superbowl is more akin to an event than a sport happening. It is a national thing, kind of like the eurovision song contest or the soccer world cup is here. It is something everybody watches, not something everybody is interested in.
I just think its so immature, to get mad after losing and call your opponent a fag. How is that anything but immature and stupid? Droping mules, emping probes or whatever, no problem cos thats more for fun than bad mannered. But when someone just tilts and says something stupid I lose so much respect for them.
It was a lot to read but, yea I was super surprised too. Coming from playing FPS and Halo specifically, where half the fun is bad mouthing, it was weird to transition to this. I think the big difference is people who were raised playing Halo type games and people who grew up playing RTS. In Halo it literally just always happens so you get used to it. I think a lot of the hardcore starcraft gamers are/were in for a awakening (not saying good or bad) when all those non Starcraft gamers came into the scene.
As a wise philosopher once said "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."
This is not Halo, this is a game for intelligent people and intelligent people do not BM because they know what it causes.
The best have the best manners. S**t talkers can only go so far.
EDIT: also people who BM are insecure, they have a need to flex their stuff in order to make them selves feel better. Most nerds are secure with themselves and we dont want this kind of stuff lowering the quality of the gameplay and community. The community and gameplay come first and your self esteem issues do nothing but lower the quality of this game and this community.
EDIT: I also personally beleive in being polite in general, there is no reason to act like a douche, if you win, you just won, your play just spoke for itself, if you lose, you were worse than the other player in that particular game, so deal with it. do unto others and all that jazz
i agree. i dont see how having poor manners causes excitement for anyone. for me, it causes me to facepalm and feel embarassed for the guy talking out of his ass. theres no reason to be a bigot about a game.
On September 17 2010 04:28 ETBPaul wrote: It was a lot to read but, yea I was super surprised too. Coming from playing FPS and Halo specifically, where half the fun is bad mouthing, it was weird to transition to this. I think the big difference is people who were raised playing Halo type games and people who grew up playing RTS. In Halo it literally just always happens so you get used to it. I think a lot of the hardcore starcraft gamers are/were in for a awakening (not saying good or bad) when all those non Starcraft gamers came into the scene.
As a wise philosopher once said "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."
SC players don't *only* play Starcraft, you know? I've spent years playing CS1.6 and Source, one of the very worst PC communities right there. It was annoying in those games as well.
I really just don't understand why bad mouthing is supposed to be fun. Not for the player doing it, not for the player on the receiving end and certainly not for any spectators.
On September 17 2010 04:28 ETBPaul wrote: It was a lot to read but, yea I was super surprised too. Coming from playing FPS and Halo specifically, where half the fun is bad mouthing, it was weird to transition to this. I think the big difference is people who were raised playing Halo type games and people who grew up playing RTS. In Halo it literally just always happens so you get used to it. I think a lot of the hardcore starcraft gamers are/were in for a awakening (not saying good or bad) when all those non Starcraft gamers came into the scene.
As a wise philosopher once said "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."
you "got used to it" because Halo and the console it's played on is cheap compared to a computer required to run SC2... aka... more people can play it... and when have people serious enough to throw down a couple grand on a system THEN take the time to learn the game... no shit you'll have GM people... where as Halo is a game where it's pick up and play right outta the box (no install needed besides plugging up 360)
I think a large piece is missing from this discussion: respect.
I think the OP is absolutely correct, trash talking can make a game much more fun and involving. Cultue is certainly part of it. Also (as discussed) timing can change the feel of the entire match for when a few words are said. Trash talk before the match is awesome - at the end, terrible. I lol'd at imagining Lebron calling Howard a faggot then running out screaming like a girl (that's at least how i pictured it), but if that actually happened IRL everyone would loose respect for him and not like him as much.
At the end of the day, after the match is over, all the players still respect the other team and everyone on it. Everyone knows they all tried their best and didn't cheat and the better team came out on top. At post-game interviews, no ever says "That guy sucks and doesn't know how to play the game!" What you mostly hear is "Our/Their team won because we/they played better." and iterations of that. A player may occasionaly say "We/They didn't play our/their best." or "...put on the best performace", but that's as close to true BM as it gets, and I've never heard someone say that without it being warranted and true. Fans can really get behind the trash talk and even trash talk fans of the other team because they know the teams respect each other and to some extent the fans respect each other.
There is no great rivalry without great respect.
In Starcraft ladder matches, it's ridiculous to expect every player on every occasion to be respectfull of a skillful player. Most players aren't known and there are no consequenses for BM other than some petty satisfaction. Even progamers develop and practice in this arena where BM is expected. I think thats where some of the more 'out there' rules originated; like no talking other than "ppp" to request a pause or to signifiy defeat (so a typed "pp" would result in an immediate loss). I think this affects how progamers play in tournaments and what they want from tournaments. I think this may influence them to be as good mannered as possible. So a normally nice person on ladder will be all smiles ( :DDDDD ) in a more professional setting.
Also this thread is waaaay more good mannered than I thought it would be. I read the OP and thought it would result in people thinking being BM would be ironic and funny. Props to well put words OP!
I don't know if this has been said or not because I haven't read the thread, but if you encourage bm and trash talking you progress to a stage where EVERYONE talks trash after EVERY loss and blames the matchup / their race / unit imbalance / whatever else for losing. See: Heroes Of Newerth
I'm just have to "LOL" when I see people acting shocked at BM. A bunch of kids competing anonymously on the internet, I pretty much expect BM.
Yea, of course it would be nice to eliminate BM, but I'm not naive enough to think it ever will happen, so I just ignore the BM. If you actually get angry, you are doing what the BMer wants, so that's a pretty bad solution too. I just laugh at the children (and if it's not a child, even more reason to laugh.
I don't know why you want to claim people are "obsessed with BM". I'm a fencer and in fencing there is a very strong level of courteousness and most fencers have good manners. To not act "manner" in fencing is regarded very bad in the community similarly to how some people act about StarCraft.
Nobody cares about fencing--and I fenced in college, so i actually like it. But ask 100 random people on the street to name a single fencer, and the closest anyone is gonna get is "Inigo Montoya".
What sports are popular in America?
Football - tons of trash talk Basketball - tons of trash talk Hockey - tons of trash talk Baseball - not quite as much as the others, but still a lot of trash talking Golf - before his downfall, Tiger Woods was the most popular golfer in America hands down, and he was famous for his "BM" and freaking out/cursing on the pitch Tennis - There's a reason Andre Agassi was more popular than Pete Sampras, even though Sampras was better. Agassi acted emotional, he said things he "shouldn't", he could get cocky, etc. Sampras always said the "right" thing and people called him a robot. MMA - tons of trash talk Boxing - tons of trash talk Nascar - tons of trash talk
Face it, the American mainstream likes great athletes to be a little bit cocky, to show their emotions and, yes, to talk some trash from time to time.
Remember when Usain Bolt slowed down during a sprint to show off how much faster he was than the other runners? People ate that up. Greatness will always make you famous, but greatness, with a dash of cockiness, will make you a legend.
Okay so to sum it up:
Nobody cares about fencing
then...
I fenced in college, so i actually like it
...What?
::
And the more trash talk exists, the more reason why people shouldn't respectful? That's your argument?
I'm done with this thread. Go trash talk people, self-proclaimed "asshole".
I don't actually know if this post is true, but this is why I said "self-proclaimed". Regardless of whether or not you actually said it, I feel you mean it. tofucake is still a jerk if he made this post up though
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: I'm an asshole who loves this game but still want to rage on people with no consequences so I made this big post about it to try to garner support for me.
On September 17 2010 04:20 SageFantasma wrote: The difference between, say, football and Starcraft is the fact that football is so much more widely accepted. If you talk trash in football, you just seem cool because you are playing something that people think is cool. If you talk trash in Starcraft, you just seem like a spoiled nerd. Being professional is so much more important in Starcraft because it is frowned upon to play videogames as your job. By being well-mannered, you're giving off the impression that you are someone to be respected, and eventually, Starcraft will catch on.
You can't tell me that if Starcraft continues to emphasize on being well-mannered, it won't catch on in America. That's fucking bullshit. Sure, you may not attract the audience that loves that stupid drama, but that isn't the whole population. Personally, I would be so unhappy if those douchebags who revel in that drama started plaguing the Starcraft scene.
Aside from the already stated "Comes from Korea" comments, I like to relate SC2 to Golf. It's like the "gentleman's game" of e-sports. It's mannered, polite, self-enforcing, like Golf. Whereas a game like Halo is more like the NBA. Less mature, a lot more trash talking and such. Just my view. =]
Sigh...the attitude of many of the Americans in this thread makes me sad. I think you're just making us look worse to rest of the world. But rather than argue, I'll just say that I am an American who does NOT watch WWF and is NOT in favor of trash talking/BM and who DOES think celebrities have a responsibility to be role models for youth. And I loved that game where Idra BMed Masq and Masq responded with "Well sir, I am honored to be the recipient of Idra rage." I thought that was so classy, and even funnier when he went on to demolish him again in the second game.
I guess when it comes down to it, you're right, "awesomoecylapse" - there's no point in trying to have good manners if you don't think that it's important. Respect for others and humility must be overrated.
I'm with Tasteless on this. When I saw oGs.Top BMing his opponent in the Ro32 I was cracking up, and hearing about how he was getting revenge made just another TvT so much more exciting and fun. It's best in small doses though. The SC community tries to hard to be polite that when BM happens it makes it so much more special.
I actually agree that most SC players seem way too sensitive, but I don't agree with the OP that all American's love shit-talk. We don't (all).
Since this inevitably gets linked to professional sports, I like athletes that are good, know it, and let their performance speak. I don't even mind somebody who is frank about their opinion. A pre-game show with an interview saying "I like my chances in this matchup" or "I think I play very strong against this player/team" is absolutely cool, and in fact, refreshing. I don't even mind a little bravado mixed in there. It's an entirely different thing when it gets personal, or you start making excuses after the game is played. Now you're just making excuses. Suck it up and move on.
Of course, I realize that not everybody is like me. And that's fine. You can like your trash-talking athletes...your prerogative. Just don't paint us all with your brush.
I thought the same thing when I came to the starcraft world from the FPS world. I was like omg where is the trash talking?!
Honestly I've come to realize it's just because a lot of pussies play Starcraft that get their feelings easily hurt.
A lot of times in games if someone says "gl hf gg" I happily respond "go fuck yourself"
They are usually appalled and I assume it's then going to throw them off their game because they'll be thinking "omg why did this mean person tell me to go fuck myself omg qqqqqqq" or something like that.
Everyone wants to be a hero in starcraft, I'd rather be a villain.
It's called testosterone ladies, it's what makes you play the game. Gamers are a little strange because unlike athletes they're generally not an alpha male bursting to the seams with it... What I don't understand is that Koreans are told to read the Art Of War which fully endorses verbal banter for Mind games and yet it's still completely taboo.
If people had their little quips and talking shit in and in the beginning of the game I guarantee you, you would have less at the end. If I lose after exchanging trash talking I'm humbled and accept my loss because now I look like an idiot for spouting bullshit. I play that much harder so the next time I'll kick his ass.
I don't have any concern with people taunting/"trash talking"/etc before and during a match. If IdrA wants to jump around saying "I'm gonna kick this punk's ass" before a match, or do taunts, drop a CC in the opponent's main, whatever...go for it.
After the match though...that, IMHO, is the time for the pleasantries. Either being a poor winner "HAHAH! I fucked that noob up! What a fucking loser" or a poor loser "Fuck that shit, xxxx is OP, he's a scrub" has NO place in ANY sport as far as I'm concerned.
Same token...I don't rage if someone doesn't gg, or doesn't glhf. Whatever...I really don't give a shit either.
I guess really, I don't care about someone showing good manners, but I'm bothered when people just act like assholes. The Phil Helmuths and IrdA's of the world...fuck em. They're known & "popular" names because their extreme arrogance and douchebaggery has gotten them recognized...but that doesn't mean that either of them are worth shit. I'm the type that cheers my ass off when the assholes are bounced from a tournament.
A lot of times in games if someone says "gl hf gg" I happily respond "go fuck yourself"
They are usually appalled and I assume it's then going to throw them off their game because they'll be thinking "omg why did this mean person tell me to go fuck myself omg qqqqqqq" or something like that.
/shrug
thats a pretty big assumption. i personally just assume my opponent is an ignoramus
I'm the type that cheers my ass off when the assholes are bounced from a tournament.
But thats whats so great about it.
Love 'em or hate 'em (and yes, many people, like yourself) do hate them, you can't ignore them.
It gives the sport a villain and someone to root against.
Tell me, if IdrA BMs someone like crazy, and tells them what a noob they are...and then they kick his ass, isn't that more satisfying for you as a fan? To see his cocky words thrown back in his face?
I'm the type that cheers my ass off when the assholes are bounced from a tournament.
But thats whats so great about it.
Love 'em or hate 'em (and yes, many people, like yourself) do hate them, you can't ignore them.
It gives the sport a villain and someone to root against.
Tell me, if IdrA BMs someone like crazy, and tells them what a noob they are...and then they kick his ass, isn't that more satisfying for you as a fan? To see his cocky words thrown back in his face?
No, because it turns the attention away from the game itself and instead focuses on superficial ego issues. When a situation like you described happens I just facepalm and become annoyed with the immaturity of the player(s).
I liken it to a bad rap battle. Doesn't matter how good one of the rapper's flow or rhyme is, everyone cheers for the one that insults the other's mom the most/loudest/worst.
A lot of Americans I run into online are loud, crude, obnoxious, whatever you want to call it. Calling things 'gay' or calling people 'faggot' for seemingly no reason. Yelling dumb things like "SIT DOWN KID!" "GET YO ASS WHOOPED!" "SUCK MY DICK!" is embarrassing to me. But in America it seems like people think it is witty or tough. These are the kinds of things I consider bad manners.
well i think some cheese tactics require more skill than long macro one fight faceroll battle and that cheese tactics not requiring skill (cannons) are just easy to counter as Tsuroka said ppl playing MW2 and consoles are bitching all day long it cause that stupid games they are playing.
Dont hate the player, hate the game.
I dont understand how people can saying you are gay cause u cheesed me or all in me its just your foul that u didnt counter it. boooom snap im right and you know it : ) u got everywhere nice and stupid people and we can just blame generations before us for this case.
People should be nice in every way not saying u would need luck, maybe when friend vs friend its ok but now against player u dont know
A lot of times in games if someone says "gl hf gg" I happily respond "go fuck yourself"
They are usually appalled and I assume it's then going to throw them off their game because they'll be thinking "omg why did this mean person tell me to go fuck myself omg qqqqqqq" or something like that.
Ah, I thought I had played you on EU server until I saw you were from US, was somebody else then.
It is actually kind of strange to get that response. Kind of like saying hello prior to a game and the person responds go fuck yourself. You take a few seconds to get over it since it is so odd. So it does have a minor mental impact, at least for me (takes like 15 seconds to fully get back to the game). ^^
Coming from years of playing CS 1.6 and then wc3(mostly dota) I can be reasonably sure that no BM will actually bother me. How could someone typing something to you ever be more annoying than some 10-15 year old kid screeching into his mic every time he kills someone(CS pugs ftw?).
I have always been a rather GM player and I don't really understand why others choose to BM people all the time. I have a really thick skin and don't care whether anyone BM's me in game(happens alot b/c im only around 950 dia).
I frequently GLHF to get some retarded response like "get fucked" or some such. I find it more amusing than anything else and to the person that said that can throw someone off their game...this type of stuff typically motivates people to beat the living shit out of whoever BM's you. I have always played my best when someone pisses me off and I love to have it happen b/c it takes my game to the next level.
For the other GM people out there who get offended and don't want pros to do it or w/e. Try to get over it b/c its not going away anytime soon(maybe i'm wrong if so great).
On September 17 2010 04:45 faseman wrote: A lot of Americans I run into online are loud, crude, obnoxious, whatever you want to call it. Calling things 'gay' or calling people 'faggot' for seemingly no reason. Yelling dumb things like "SIT DOWN KID!" "GET YO ASS WHOOPED!" "SUCK MY DICK!" is embarrassing to me. But in America it seems like people think it is witty or tough. These are the kinds of things I consider bad manners.
Yes.
And with respect to the OP's post on chess he is just wrong. You're actually not allowed to even talk to your opponent during a tournament chess match except to say 'j'adoube' or 'i adjust.'
Alright, the key here is to be BM while still showing your opponents respect. The general mis-assumption is that the two are mutually exclusive, however, the key is to present yourself as superior, not to present your opponent as inferior. Ali claimed himself as "The Greatest," not as "the only boxer that has self respect and doesn't win only with haymakers like a tactless faggot". "The Greatest" is a title that actually bestows respect to his opponents, as anybody who fights against "The Greatest" must be pretty fucking good to stand toe to toe.
When we bash bad mannerisms, it's almost always because one player at the end of the game is berating his opponent, his opponent's strategy, blizzard, the map, etc. By contrast, we LOVE FBH's dance ceramonies, Much's pylon heart, Boxer's emp + nuke, TLO's marauder bombs, etc. Because it's the winning player saying "yeah, I have the advantage here, because I'm freaking good."
I'd like to see more trash talk pre game as long as it's well executed. Meaning witty and it can get in the opponent's head. Heated rivalries coming from stuff like that would definitly make SC2 more interesting and give commentators something else to talk about.
It's not a difficult task to play videogames and be a dick. In fact it's painfully easy. But it's almost not difficult to be a level-headed and reasonable person. The way I see it is this: if you can remain a gentleman (or woman) on the Internet then you'd be a nice and pleasant person in RL. Any 13 year old can scream into a mic or talk smack about their opponent's mum. It takes someone with discipline to say "hey, good job. I really got out played there gg."
I am American and I can surely say that I do not share the OP's opinions. I don't like cockiness , bad mannerisms or trash-talking in ANY competitive arena.
OP does not speak for all Americans. Not in the fucking slightest.
After having played HoN for quite a while, I can only see the benefits of it. Yeah, sometimes people act like babies but in the long run you at least have a good mannered community. If I ask an opponent where he hid X or Y after I've lost a game, he'll 90% of the time just tell me. In other games you'd get the "LOL SCOUT NUB" mentality. Ditto for pro gaming, trash talk can be enjoyable but it gets silly as hell after a while. There's a reason JP says the good mannered SC2 community surprises him, while the console community makes him puke.
On September 17 2010 04:37 Frozne wrote: A lot of times in games if someone says "gl hf gg" I happily respond "go fuck yourself"
They are usually appalled and I assume it's then going to throw them off their game because they'll be thinking "omg why did this mean person tell me to go fuck myself omg qqqqqqq" or something like that.
Funny, I assume I'd roll you because you so easily flip out after a simple glhf. People who BM I find to be emotionally unstable and can't keep their shit together. It shows in their play.
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
Speak for yourself, not for all of us. Honestly I find it disgraceful when people act like this.
Indeed.
I hate trash talking in everything, be it sports or games.
I've gone to tournaments for other games, and it's pretty shameful how some people act...though it's funny how people are freaking out in here calling people who dislike BM "Pussies". A bit Immature, don't you think?
I'm glad SC is as well mannered as it is, it's a breath of fresh air.
There is a big difference between trash talk and BM imo. Trash talk is trying to get into someone's head and put them on tilt where BM is just being an asshole and putting someone down. There have been plenty of times in sports where players have been called on being douche bags too.
Everybody I know despises the drama in "real" sports, I don't know of anyone who think it's a good thing and would enjoy the game a lot more if you didn't have assholes always shouting I am the best!" more times then not, it turns the public against them and makes people wish for them to fail, and laugh when they do.
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
This
Nobody likes cowards, go to a LAN party and start being BM, i assure you that you will get the living **** kicked out of you,i know it happened to a bunch of smart ass CS players
Take a scrawny and rather small guy like IdrA, there are people that would seriously harm him if he said any of that to their faces. It just ends up looking cowardice instead of "YO IM BADASS RAWR"
Unless your name is Brock Lesnar, there will always be someone bigger and/or stronger than you
Also do you know what community contains the most BM? Thats right World of Warcraft Arena, anyone who has been to MLG will attest to the amount of crap they spew about each other, both online for months and after.
It would be nice and special if SC2 wasent like every other game
The OP serves no purpose except to reinforce the nasty stereotype that people often have for Americans; that is Americans are ignorant of other cultures and take pride in being overaggressive. Please stop talking as if you represent America and I think only not very intellectual people would cherish trash talk.
On September 17 2010 05:03 phant wrote: Everybody I know despises the drama in "real" sports, I don't know of anyone who think it's a good thing and would enjoy the game a lot more if you didn't have assholes always shouting I am the best!" more times then not, it turns the public against them and makes people wish for them to fail, and laugh when they do.
Dimagas 6pool vs Naniwa became even greater after Naniwa's IRC bm. Sometimes it adds entertainment.
An (NFL) football game has two teams which spend an hour practically roughing each other up. Same thing for UFC, etc. It's a little more understandable that in the heat of the fight there would be some trash talk.
Starcraft is more like tennis - the conflict is more indirect, and is heavily influenced by control, technique, and strategy. Perhaps with this mindset, the best players are expected to have volatile, trash-talking personalities. Note that tennis players are indeed typically well-mannered. After all, rage is not going to help you in a tennis/starcraft match.
I like korean manners. I really think SC2-gaming in america should follow korea.
Sure, I love IdrA and I do BM sometimes myself (a lot of times when I lose I don't GG, and some times i rage a bit in the chat), but if you in progaming did nothing but flaming there wouldn't be that nice athmosphere about the game as it otherwise would be. Check out the Heroes of Newerth-community, that is flaming and flaming and flaming. You can't post on the forums without being flamed, and if you do one wrong thing in-game you are getting flamed on. That's sad.
I really like people who can say things to each other in-game, like dimaga and IdrA. It's much funnier than a "glhf" which is just written to get your fingers going and then a GG at the end. Discussing the game in short when you lose like "Oh I shouldn't have taken that expo" before leaving is great, no doubt, but flaming isn't. I do agree with IdrA in his thoughts about imbalance, but the flaming part isn't fun. It just takes away the victory from the opponent. If you lost to DTs and you tell him that he suck and cannot win properly then you're actually taking the win from your opponent. :S
I agree 100% with this. Other esports trash talking is perfectly normal and no one takes it serious or makes a big fuss about it. But I guess because SC community is trying to incorporate the Korean style so badly they react to anything and call it BM. I know trash talking =/= BM but so far from what Ive seen from this community it is.
and the fact that as an RTS gamer, one should at least to try to appear intelligent and not as some retarded-cocky jock-wanna-be
just my biased opinion though, I really don't have a problem with BM being allowed, in fact I think BM should be "allowed" in tournaments just so you can know the players a lot better and differentiate between personality types of gamers
I just won't ever root for a BM player over one who is respectful of others
On September 17 2010 04:37 Frozne wrote: I thought the same thing when I came to the starcraft world from the FPS world. I was like omg where is the trash talking?!
Honestly I've come to realize it's just because a lot of pussies play Starcraft that get their feelings easily hurt.
A lot of times in games if someone says "gl hf gg" I happily respond "go fuck yourself"
They are usually appalled and I assume it's then going to throw them off their game because they'll be thinking "omg why did this mean person tell me to go fuck myself omg qqqqqqq" or something like that.
Everyone wants to be a hero in starcraft, I'd rather be a villain.
/shrug
Yea i've had that happen to me sometimes, where they just tell me to "fuck myself" right as the game starts.
They usually just cheese because their brain cant handle a 10+ min game, at least in my experience. I cant imagine anyone being thrown off their game because of that either.
Also, the FPS world is dominated by 12 year old kids who think that everything is gay, and that the word "fuck" is "awesome wicked cool". In real life they wouldnt dare to even speak to you though
Anonymous trashtalking = boring and silly. You're just saying things that have no consequences whatsoever.
Don't really care either way about BM. However if it intensifies the rivalry, increases the stakes, and makes the games more entertaining, then I don't mind it. Watching stone cold machines compete is fine sometimes, but you have to mix in passion and energy too. I guess BM in moderation is okay with me.
I'm the type that cheers my ass off when the assholes are bounced from a tournament.
But thats whats so great about it.
Love 'em or hate 'em (and yes, many people, like yourself) do hate them, you can't ignore them.
It gives the sport a villain and someone to root against.
Tell me, if IdrA BMs someone like crazy, and tells them what a noob they are...and then they kick his ass, isn't that more satisfying for you as a fan? To see his cocky words thrown back in his face?
Actually, I don't find it more satisfying for someone to kick an IdrA's or a Hellmuth's ass, because I don't respect them in the first place.
And in both the examples, I know that they're both "exceptional players" - but their BM outbursts kill any respect I have for them. In many ways, I honestly don't think they belong there in the first place because they're both such bad-mannered pricks. I would be just as happy to find out that they weren't even envited to a tournament as I am when they're ejected by another player.
If they could suck it up at the end of a match and essentially "good game" - be gracious in defeat - I could forgive almost any pre/during match taunting & such...but the fact that they can't accept defeat, that it was a donkey call or Terran is OP or Blizzard Sucks is what pisses me off & destroys any respect I have for them.
I guess, overall....I want a good match that is entertaining to watch which ends in some mutual respect for the competition & the opponent. Without the respect...its just a couple of morons measuring cocks...which I really DON'T want to see LOL
<i>Honestly I've come to realize it's just because a lot of pussies play Starcraft that get their feelings easily hurt. </i>
Yea all those 15 year old "im macho" kids on Xbox Live sure are tough guys right?
Its well established that people who act "hard" on the internet, do so because they cant do that irl, because they have nothing to back it up. Thus they can feel like a man online.
My 2 military friends who could easily whip most peoples ass outright, are some of the best mannered people online, they have discipline, they dont sit around eating cheetos and calling people the N word on Xbox Live all day.
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
So you are saying that because its not a physical game they can't talk smack? Or that the first nerd talking smack needs to bigger than the other nerd to talk smack?
Bad mannerism is different from trash talk. Talking trash is usually done to instigate hype or get the competitive spirit of your rival and opponents, it can be a psychological thing to get yourself confident.
Bad Mannerism is just bad mannerism, it's kicking an opponent who is already down and spitting in his face.
Being polite in competition is a bit hypocritical in my opinion, either way your opponent isn't going to feel good after losing.
Personally I love it when I beat people and they BM me. It just means that I was so much better than them it caused them to lose their shit.
People need to quit comparing Starcraft to regular sports. In some sports there is a culture of trash talking that makes it acceptable because the players don't take it seriously (usually) and after the games they respect each other. But Starcraft doesn't have that kind of culture.
So you are saying that because its not a physical game they can't talk smack? Or that the first nerd talking smack needs to bigger than the other nerd to talk smack?
You shouldnt say anything ONLINE that you cant say to the same person IRL
Otherwise you are just a coward, regardless of big or small you are
Being polite in competition is a bit hypocritical in my opinion, either way your opponent isn't going to feel good after losing.
Not only that, more often than not, its people acting fake. In their head, they think they're the best and expect to kick their opponent's ass. But because they know its not "right" to say that, they keep their head down and say something completely bland and "nice" like, "he's a great player and i will need to work very hard to beat him."
I mean, if thats really how they feel, fine. but most of the time, i don't get the sense that thats true. I get the feeling that what they'd really like to say is something like, "yeah, he's pretty good...but I'm better."
And f thats what they're thinking, they should just be honest and say so, instead of trying to act as bland as possible to avoid offending anyone.
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
hahaha this. It is awkward for one competitor to talk trash to another competitor in the absence of pain. It would be very awkward for two Olympic divers to be talking trash to each other. It is not awkward for two boxers to talk trash because their job is to beat the shit out of the other guy's face.
In another example, it is awkward for two chess players to talk trash to each other. Aggression is not a natural part of the game. It is not awkward for two swimmers to talk trash to each other because they will be enduring lots of pain side by side in the pool, and whoever is able to endure more pain will probably win.
If you want to talk trash, there must be some kind of inherent aggression/pain experience in the sport. No one wants to hear ice skaters rag on each others mothers. We have to realize that Starcraft is something between a performance/intellectual/skill sport:
It is something of a performance. We go over our builds and compose strategies to be used like building blocks, much as a dancer might create a choreographed dance from different dance forms.
It is something of an intellectual sport because much like chess, we must use our intelligence and intuition to think one step ahead of our opponent.
And finally, it is something of a skill sport, because I cannot move my hands as fast as Jaedong, nor can I manipulate the controls of this very specific system as well as he can.
What is is NOT, though, is a physical sport. There is no pain in starcraft. Perhaps Koreans get tired after 10 hours of practicing. That is not pain. That is being tired. This is why they work out everyday in addition to their play.
BUT I would like to commend you on this excellent piece of prose:
before it even had gone through the net he'd turned around, stuck a finger in the air for "Number 1", and started swaggering away like a badass. Did people complaing about "BM". No. They said, "Larry Bird is the fucking man.
because people want to play their birthday presents purchased with mummy's credit card while they intentionally use broken English and call people from their own country "foreigners"
On September 17 2010 05:11 Raevin wrote: Real football, its also the most beloved and widespread sport in the world
Are you joking lol
You start watching soccer this past world cup or something???
Shit talking is great. SC players are the most sensitive mother fuckers.
I do agree with the op that shit talking in defeat is just lame (honestly, my favorite guys dish it out but are humble when they lose). But even then, it's all about characters. You love trash talkers, or you love to hate them. But the game is just so bland without the emotional investment.
I prefer the more brash players and athletes and coaches, but you have to appreciate the other side as well
I honestly believe that not being BM is showing people you know what StarCraft is all about. I don't care if I lose a game humiliatingly and terribly, as long as when I type gg, the opponent types gg back. It shows mutual respect for all. I enjoy SC more with NO BM.
MorroW is bad mannered because he is not affraid to speak is mind and say that he is a good player when the fact is he is currently the best European player. MorroW is also BM for playing to win.
Who cares what Korea does that isn't directly related to E-sports skill. All this gg gl hf and making faces makes me sick. This is a game, its not owed to you to have mandatory greetings and exits in matches. If I'm on ladder I'm usually there to play and win not chit-chat. If I do want to talk I'll talk to them postgame or at the end of the game.
I actually enjoy BM quite a bit too. Its fun and funny. I tell people they are BM to troll them now because I find it pretty funny actually.
So you are saying that because its not a physical game they can't talk smack? Or that the first nerd talking smack needs to bigger than the other nerd to talk smack?
You shouldnt say anything ONLINE that you cant say to the same person IRL
Otherwise you are just a coward, regardless of big or small you are
So you are saying I wouldn't tell them they suck at the game IRL? I guess you don't know me then.
Real football, its also the most beloved and widespread sport in the world
Soccer has insane amounts of trash talk, whether between players, managers, and especially the fans. I mean, Americans might talk a lot of smack, but we don't go around starting fights like Soccer Hooligans do in other countries. Take a look at Real Madrid-Barcelona, or any derby in the UK, they all talk loads of smack.
And if you don't think great soccer players, from older ones like Maradona, to modern ones like Cristiano Ronaldo or Wayne Rooney, are cocky, I don't know what to say.
Real football, its also the most beloved and widespread sport in the world
Soccer has insane amounts of trash talk, whether between players, managers, and especially the fans. I mean, Americans might talk a lot of smack, but we don't go around starting fights like Soccer Hooligans do in other countries. Take a look at Real Madrid-Barcelona, or any derby in the UK, they all talk loads of smack.
And if you don't think great soccer players, from older ones like Maradona, to modern ones like Cristiano Ronaldo or Wayne Rooney, are cocky, I don't know what to say.
yea Fergie vs Wenger = holy shit trash talk haha
Roy Keane anyone?
I love it. If someone wants to talk shit to me, I don't whine - I rip them back. It's how it should be.
BM should be instant ban until the player learn and endorse the advantages of civilized communication and behavior and stop being a monkey who just hits the keyboard and random swears come out
There are just so many different kinds of BM it's silly to say they're all good or all bad. Some people will say leaving without a gg is BM, but honestly, if the loser made worse mistakes than usual, it wasn't a good game at all and they should be able to surrender without getting trashed by casters. It's a bit different than slapping hands after a baseball game, cause you don't need to say anything there, you're just showing a small amount of respect for your opponent. Then you have the people that are angry and don't surrender when they have no more chance left... while being streamed (say their base is overrun so the winner starts playing around with them). Trash talk can be entertaining depending on the caster, like say IdrA vs drewbie on NarutoSC had me crying with laughter. It's weird that some streamers will choose to rant about the any BM after a battle instead of focusing on any tech switches or rebuilding.
I think there's a fine line between BM and straying away from the cookie-cutter Korean progamer model. I know it's a huge part of Korean culture, but if Flash says one more thing about lacking skill and focus after basically being undefeatable in 2 months, I'll rage. If Flash were to say, "it seems like for now I am the dominant force in BW" I'd be happy...that's not BM, but it's actually the truth and not some artificially humble blanket statement.
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
This is a huge point.
That being said I also agree with the folks who aren't a fan of trash talking anyways. To me trash talking is for joking around with friends while you're having fun. Trash talking in the public light against people you barely know? There are two ways I take this.
1: The guy is immature due to corruption by fame and money at a young age. 2: More likely - The guy wants press time resulting in more marketability and money.
I'm a fan of manners and competition, which is one reason I really enjoy watching SC matches. My favorite sports stars are always the guys with a clean shave and respectable mannerisms.
In regard to HoN's BM raging -- I couldn't play the game after some of my friends quit. I can't stand the pick up group mentality.
Soccer has insane amounts of trash talk, whether between players, managers, and especially the fans. I mean, Americans might talk a lot of smack, but we don't go around starting fights like Soccer Hooligans do in other countries. Take a look at Real Madrid-Barcelona, or any derby in the UK, they all talk loads of smack.
And if you don't think great soccer players, from older ones like Maradona, to modern ones like Cristiano Ronaldo or Wayne Rooney, are cocky, I don't know what to say.
Shows how little you know about our sport, the reason football players dont talk much trash IS BECUASE OF THE HOOLIGANS, there is an actual danger is a player taunts the crowd too much where it can escalate, its for their own safety.
They are cocky and when they show it, like when Rooney lost the plot at WC and called the fans for booing them for ****, he was forced to apologise days later becuase the entire country of England wanted him nailed to the cross for saying that.
You cant behave like that in football, it just dosent work. Which is why every interview is about "yea they are a good team but if we focus we can beat them", anyone who has watched football knows what i am talking about.
Its just difficult for some americans to comprehend that some people do prefer good manners and sportsmanship.
UFC fighters talk trash to build up a fight, sell tickets, then they usually hug afterwards to show respect after the competition.
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: I don't get the obsession with "BM". It seems like every time a progamer does anything but keep their head down, say the "right" things at all times, and never ever talks trash or says anything cocky in any way, its "BM" and people get pissed off.
E-sports still has a negative stigma so professionals are expected to act with professionalism to show everyone the maturity and sportsmanship involved in e-sports.
depends on what kind of BM it is. anything spoken/typed, is fine since its just an expression. things like hovering around CCs and etc for sake of wasting time is just retarded.
Starcraft has it's etiquette and standards, like all sports. Examples of this are "GL HF" and "GG".
Trash talk is fine and I feel like competitive Starcraft needs more of it, it adds fire to competition. This is partially what makes idrA so entertaining.
Calling people "fucking noobs" and "fags" and such is BM, and is unacceptable on a professional level.
One of the reasons progaming is STILL frowned upon, at least around where I live and by people I interact with, both online and offline, is because of the stigma of 14 year old Halo-nerds shouting faggot at each other through their headsets.
I *really* think saying 'it spices up the game' or 'I'll rip them one back instead' isn't the way to go here.
Anyone can trash talk, it takes effort to be a gentleman. I think that good and mannered player is so much tougher and cooler than some lame ass trash talking cry baby. Example in e-sports. Sepha,probably the best CoH player ever - best mannered player i have ever seen. Never said a word that even looked like trash talk - EVERYBODY respected and feared him as long as he played. Darwin, another high skilled player, ALWAYS trash talked and always been a laughing stock no matter he indeed is a great player. You are saying like it's good to be opposite of all the good things in sports. Sports are about being great in defeat and great in the victory. Modern sports lost that because of the MONEY, the only God we all believe in now days... My opinion, probably cos i ain't from America.
that's the problem, it is not normal to accept such behaviour, especially from the athletes who represent us as a community in competitions; if, as you say, americans like that and accept it, that's your problem as a society; reason for this is people tend to strive towards harmony and mutual respect instead of basing their achievments on fear and disrespect
Ever seen chess players talking thrash to each other? Scientists that argue about a solution? Well, playing strategy games is closer to these activities. I feel sorry for the described culture.
On September 17 2010 05:43 figq wrote: Ever seen chess players talking thrash to each other? Scientists that argue about a solution? Well, playing strategy games is closer to these activities. I feel sorry for the described culture.
Bobby Fischer? And yes, scientists/professors arguing about solutions is pretty much the norm...
On September 17 2010 05:43 figq wrote: Ever seen chess players talking thrash to each other? Scientists that argue about a solution? Well, playing strategy games is closer to these activities. I feel sorry for the described culture.
Bobby Fisher? And yes, scientists/professors arguing about solutions is pretty much the norm...
I have yet to see two scientist calling each other "Fucking retard" or "Fag" when they disagreed.
BM hurts e-sports, I thought we wanted it to spread, not people be afraid to jump in.
Soccer has insane amounts of trash talk, whether between players, managers, and especially the fans. I mean, Americans might talk a lot of smack, but we don't go around starting fights like Soccer Hooligans do in other countries. Take a look at Real Madrid-Barcelona, or any derby in the UK, they all talk loads of smack.
And if you don't think great soccer players, from older ones like Maradona, to modern ones like Cristiano Ronaldo or Wayne Rooney, are cocky, I don't know what to say.
Shows how little you know about our sport, the reason football players dont talk much trash IS BECUASE OF THE HOOLIGANS, there is an actual danger is a player taunts the crowd too much where it can escalate, its for their own safety.
They are cocky and when they show it, like when Rooney lost the plot at WC and called the fans for booing them for ****, he was forced to apologise days later becuase the entire country of England wanted him nailed to the cross for saying that.
You cant behave like that in football, it just dosent work. Which is why every interview is about "yea they are a good team but if we focus we can beat them", anyone who has watched football knows what i am talking about.
Its just difficult for some americans to comprehend that some people do prefer good manners and sportsmanship.
UFC fighters talk trash to build up a fight, sell tickets, then they usually hug afterwards to show respect after the competition.
'I was asked by ITV to do the Celtic versus Manchester United game but I've done it once for Sky and never again. I'd rather go to the dentist.
'There was a debate about Arsene Wenger on Sky and how crazy is that? People are actually getting interviewed saying he shouldn't be doing this.
'What that man's done for English football is amazing and will be remembered in 25, 50, 100 years. Will those on telly yesterday be remembered for what they've achieved? None whatsoever. I wouldn't trust them to walk my dog.
'There are ex-players and ex-referees being given air-time who I wouldn't listen to in a pub.'
On Rio Ferdinand and under-performing United team-mates...
'Just because you are paid £120,000-a-week and play well for 20 minutes against Tottenham, you think you are a superstar.
'The younger players have been let down by some of the experienced players. They are just not leading. There is a shortage of characters in this team.
'It seems to be in this club that you have to play badly to be rewarded. Maybe that's what I should do when I come back. Play badly.'
On United's home support...'Sometimes you wonder, do they understand the game of football?
We're 1-0 up, then there are one or two stray passes and they're getting on players' backs. It's just not on.
'At the end of the day they need to get behind the team. Away from home our fans are fantastic, I'd call them hardcore fans. But at home they have a few drinks and probably the prawn sandwiches, and they don't realise what's going on out on the pitch.
'I don't think some of the people who come to Old Trafford can spell football, never mind understand it.'
On WAGS...
'These so-called big stars are people we are supposed to be looking up to. Well, they are weak and soft.
'If they don't want to come because their wife wants to go shopping in London, it's a sad state of affairs.
'I can understand the attraction of people wanting to go to London - if you are talking about Arsenal, Chelsea or Tottenham. But there are players going to clubs in London simply because it is London.
'To me, that is wrong. It is not a football move, it is a lifestyle move and those are the type of people you don't want at your club.
'To me, that player is weak because his wife runs his life.'
On Jack Warner and releasing Dwight Yorke for international duty (Trinidad & Tobago football chief)....
'The man's a clown. He sent me a letter and he was quite happy to give it to the media. I spoke to him and told him what I thought about him and where I think he should go.
'He is writing these letters and it is always under the FIFA heading just to impress everybody.
'If he is vice President of FIFA then God help us. People worry about the game and agents and directors of football and managers losing their jobs - we should be worried about people like him.'
On Sunderland defender Clive Clarke, who suffered a heart attack while on loan at Leicester...
'On a night we got beaten in the cup by Luton, the staff came in and said, "Clive Clarke has had a heart attack at Leicester". 'I said, "Is he OK? I'm shocked they found one, you could never tell by the way he plays". 'Clarke later goes and does a piece in some newspaper telling the world that I have lost the dressing room. How does he know? He wasn't there! Clown.'
So....
he mocks teammates, media, managers, other players, and even a guy whose had a heart attack...
Sounds like 'BM' to me.
But I guess thats why Roy Keane has no fans and wasn't beloved by Manchester United fans...
Oh wait, I forgot, they fucking loved the guy for years.
Exception to the rule, you took one of the most hated footballers of all time and decided that that is HOW EVERY FOOTBALL player behaves.
Congratulations, Keane breaking that guys leg made him the most hated player in football.
If NFL was so cool "and badass lol" then the entire world would watch it, they dont. They watch football, and they admire players like Messi, not people who hack legs off others (Keane)
To me, you're just making Americans look bad, OP. In my opinion BM should never be an example to follow, unless you like confronting to others, something you really don't want to happen unless you live in a bubble, which should not last forever. It is ok to be sincere and not to show respect for those you do not respect, it is ok to be cocky, but making fun of others or provoke them while you're on top is just an unwise attitude, as nothing lasts forever, and because "being on the top" is something given by a social group, and being BM will help you to anything but to be admired, unless you all live in a collective bubble, which, as always, should not last forever.
So you are saying I wouldn't tell them they suck at the game IRL? I guess you don't know me then.
No i dont know you,that is the point is that alot of people say **** online that they wouldnt dare say to someones face, that is cowardice.
Hiding behind your monitor is not "cool" and cant be compared to Kobe Bryant talking **** to Shaq right on the court
I doubt 90% of the people in this topic dare say anything to someones face.
And usually its guys who never got a chance to be "tough" irl that go online and run their mouths.
i approve of this message. I never really know when ppl are super seris or are just acting like that because they can hide themselfs behind a screen.
pisses me off when someone calls someone esle bm, and use it 4 times in one sentence. Grow some balls and go "hey your being a fucking dick go kill yourself" not " hes being bm because turtling on a island is bm, this tatic is bm in general...........bm" Just call him a douchbag.
frist is alot more funny if you dont use bm. rather then fuck you doucher prick. second i tgets your point across alot better then, o your so bm silly. third because i straight fucking disaprove. fourth if someone is being bm( fucking doucher) you want to make him feel bad because he desevres it. saying o doing that was bm. aint gonna make him feel bad. But saying i fucking dont like you because u=prick. that make'll him feel bad ( not enough for him to cry but take that smirk away).
I don't think we need BM to make SC2 big in the US, just players with a radiating personality. There are athletes out there who are fierce, nice, mean, douchebags, and etcetera. They are what give sports greater publicity and headlines because people and the media like covering them. Athletes like Dwight Howard, Shaquille O'Neal, Ray Lewis, Terrel Owens, and others. They might be the best but people like watching them play and how they play.
from samsaung... i believe his game id is brack? brock? terran player. wasn't he famous for BM? i really liked that guy's BM. he made alot of issues in the sc:bw community. i remember he is the guy that got 'pylon heart' ownage.
BM is BM and i welcome it. makes games more fun to watch.
On September 17 2010 04:37 Frozne wrote: I thought the same thing when I came to the starcraft world from the FPS world. I was like omg where is the trash talking?!
Honestly I've come to realize it's just because a lot of pussies play Starcraft that get their feelings easily hurt.
A lot of times in games if someone says "gl hf gg" I happily respond "go fuck yourself"
They are usually appalled and I assume it's then going to throw them off their game because they'll be thinking "omg why did this mean person tell me to go fuck myself omg qqqqqqq" or something like that.
Everyone wants to be a hero in starcraft, I'd rather be a villain.
/shrug
LOL
That's great. I never "gl hf gg" unless I'm playing my friends. In ranked matches I want my opponent miserable and losing horribly with all the worst breaks the world has to offer ^_^
I only gg if I mean it. If I played like swill, or lost to cheese, I don't gg ( unless the cheese was well done or amusing). When I play a seriously intense and tight game, and the other guy gives me just as much as I'm giving him, I GG, caps and all.
On September 17 2010 05:43 figq wrote: Ever seen chess players talking thrash to each other? Scientists that argue about a solution? Well, playing strategy games is closer to these activities. I feel sorry for the described culture.
Bobby Fisher? And yes, scientists/professors arguing about solutions is pretty much the norm...
I have yet to see two scientist calling each other "Fucking retard" or "Fag" when they disagreed.
BM hurts e-sports, I thought we wanted it to spread, not people be afraid to jump in.
You have to admit that it would be interesting to watch scientific debate like that though regardless of subject matter.
On September 17 2010 05:53 Raevin wrote: If you think BM is great, go log on Xbox Live, come back here and tell us how much fun you really had arguining with 12 year old racists
On September 17 2010 05:52 sNes. wrote: you think this is bm?..play Heroes of newerth
Do you want to cultivate a community that will be similar to HoN, Halo, CoD, and all that or would you rather have one which stands apart by being civil?
I want StarCraft 2's community to be a city on a hill for gamers and game culture, rather then a vile cesspool of kids with their balls freshly dropped yelling uncalled for insults to one another because it makes them feel better.
Exception to the rule, you took one of the most hated footballers of all time and decided that that is HOW EVERY FOOTBALL player behaves.
Congratulations, Keane breaking that guys leg made him the most hated player in football.
If NFL was so cool "and badass lol" then the entire world would watch it, they dont. They watch football, and they admire players like Messi, not people who hack legs off others (Keane)
Diego Maradona on his rival to the 'world's best ever player' award, Pele...
"Pele should go back to the museum."
Diego Maradona on the entire nation of France and its greatest football star...
"We all know what the French are like and Platini as a Frenchman thinks he knows it all."
Diego Maradona on fatherhood...
"My legitimate kids are Dalma and Giannina. The rest are a product of my money and mistakes."
Diego Maradona on smashing the car of a photographer...
"I did it with the hand of reason."
Diego Maradona on being voted Fifa's joint Player of the Century...
"The people voted for me. Now they want me to share the prize with Pele. I'm not going to share the prize with anybody."
Diego Maradona on World Cup 1998, and clearly not anticipating this one...
"The players have all got square feet. They are like Robocops, they have more need of lubricant than massage. I don't believe the tournament could be worse."
Diego Maradona on proving the doubters wrong...
"To those who did not believe: now suck my d**k - I'm sorry ladies for my words - and keep on sucking it. I am either white or black. I will never be grey in my life. You treated me as you did. Now keep on sucking d**ks. I am grateful to my players and to the Argentinian people. I thank no one but them. The rest, keep on sucking d**ks."
Face it. Soccer is no different from American sports. Some of the athletes are classy or well-mannered, but many more are cocky and talk trash.
Bad manners... what for? Why should someone show them? It's really annoying to anyone, respectful contact helps much better... Better swallow the anger for a moment and have a good relationship to other persons instead of ruining it for a moment of weakness. Players showing bad manners just gain aversion because they show too much doggedness and that's really annoying even only to watch. A german athlete openly showing bad manners really gets some serious problems in public and potentially even on professional level as no team likes to be known as having bad mannered players.
Seems to be different in the US and I don't really understand why. Guess it's because media thinks that it's good for TV ratings so they kinda "support" it and in the end it's all about money on that professional level... I don' want to referr that to a majority of american athletes but it seems to have been an issue in single cases as even I noticed some although I'm not much into sport news.
I'm happy with good manners in eSports. There haven't been many cases of real bad manners that I'ld know and most which existed had consequences. I think SK or another swedish CS teams once dismissed a player because of insulting opponents and german ESL Pro Series kicked a bad mannered WC3 player from the season because he had too many penalty points for bad manners. I hope it remains that way. Right now bad manners are rare and mostly harmless enough to sense them as funny side issues appearing from time to time.
Exception to the rule, you took one of the most hated footballers of all time and decided that that is HOW EVERY FOOTBALL player behaves.
Congratulations, Keane breaking that guys leg made him the most hated player in football.
If NFL was so cool "and badass lol" then the entire world would watch it, they dont. They watch football, and they admire players like Messi, not people who hack legs off others (Keane)
Diego Maradona on his rival to the 'world's best ever player' award, Pele...
"Pele should go back to the museum."
Diego Maradona on the entire nation of France and its greatest football star...
"We all know what the French are like and Platini as a Frenchman thinks he knows it all."
Diego Maradona on fatherhood...
"My legitimate kids are Dalma and Giannina. The rest are a product of my money and mistakes."
Diego Maradona on smashing the car of a photographer...
"I did it with the hand of reason."
Diego Maradona on being voted Fifa's joint Player of the Century...
"The people voted for me. Now they want me to share the prize with Pele. I'm not going to share the prize with anybody."
Diego Maradona on World Cup 1998, and clearly not anticipating this one...
"The players have all got square feet. They are like Robocops, they have more need of lubricant than massage. I don't believe the tournament could be worse."
Diego Maradona on proving the doubters wrong...
"To those who did not believe: now suck my d**k - I'm sorry ladies for my words - and keep on sucking it. I am either white or black. I will never be grey in my life. You treated me as you did. Now keep on sucking d**ks. I am grateful to my players and to the Argentinian people. I thank no one but them. The rest, keep on sucking d**ks."
Face it. Soccer is no different from American sports. Some of the athletes are classy or well-mannered, but many more are cocky and talk trash.
I'm sorry but I don't know a single person that likes Maradona, he's also a massive junkie and alcoholic.
Trash talk is fine by me outside of the game, in interviews etc. Never in game though, or to be more precise during a game. After the gg, say what you like loser
This is what I read, maybe I miss something...: "Hey guys, it sucks that we have good manners and are nice to each others, let's change that!"
Hm?
Being fake and forced to have GM is just as bad as actual BM imo. I don't want to have to learn which is the pickle fork to play starcraft. I don't BM much but I think its fine.
This is what I read, maybe I miss something...: "Hey guys, it sucks that we have good manners and are nice to each others, let's change that!"
Hm?
Haha yeah I have the same impression of the opening post, who would want such a thing? Idra? :D
On September 17 2010 06:06 blitzkrieger wrote: Being fake and forced to have GM is just as bad as actual BM imo. I don't want to have to learn which is the pickle fork to play starcraft. I don't BM much but I think its fine.
If you really have to force yourself to good manners than you're to dogged into the game imo. Players are trying to have fun and play their tactics, they don't aim for annoying their opponents usually. And I think nobody has any problems with replying bad manners with bad manners at a certain level, just don't start with it and don't take it too seriously.
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
I do think there is a lot of truth to the above quote. On the otherhand, I prefer sportsmanship out of players.
There's perhaps a couple other reasons for the obsession with bm. I don't mind a little smack talk amongst rivals- but get trash talked by some random dude a little annoying- I don't know this person and I'll probably never play them again. As such we aren't creating rivalries here, it's just seems a little dumb.
edit in- this guys is bang on with what I'm thinking:
On September 17 2010 04:00 OneWhoIsMany wrote: Unfortunately trash talk does not translate into trash typing. Trash typing doesn't work the same way, your sitting behind a computer many miles away from your opponent - there is no emotion conveyed, no tone, no setting, no facial features. Which then leaves so much ambiguity to the statements made and more often then not people will judge the worst out of a person when there is no real context. In a Lan event I can see trash talking working, if you really want to BM your opponent and trash him up outplay the fuck out of them and then drop mules, bring all your overlords to hang out, etc.. That is the only reasonable way to BM your opponent in SC2.
Another reason might be, it's a reaction to the very negative image that has been created around gamer culture. Typical sports trash talking is generally pretty tame compared to the diarrhea that falls under the category of gamer 'trash talking.' In certain gamer circles, one will quickly discover that you are
an African slave, a whiny female, a homosexual, have sexual relations with your mother, your opponent will have sexual relations with you and/ or your mother (forcibly or otherwise), etc.
Whatever you may think of the appropriateness of this talk within it's own circle or how prevalent this form of 'trash talking' actually is, I highly suspect other gamers are concerned about gamer image and would rather keep SCII clean of the bottom sewers of gamer culture.
On September 17 2010 05:52 sNes. wrote: you think this is bm?..play Heroes of newerth
Do you want to cultivate a community that will be similar to HoN, Halo, CoD, and all that or would you rather have one which stands apart by being civil?
I want StarCraft 2's community to be a city on a hill for gamers and game culture, rather then a vile cesspool of kids with their balls freshly dropped yelling uncalled for insults to one another because it makes them feel better.
Well said
SC2 should be what every community wishes it was, not another cesspool of arroggant assholes who think they are "hardcore brah" for talking smack online and thinking they are some buff NFL player.
I cant speak for every european player, but im pretty sure that most of them, dont see bad manners and douchebag attitude as entertainment
This is what I read, maybe I miss something...: "Hey guys, it sucks that we have good manners and are nice to each others, let's change that!"
Hm?
Being fake and forced to have GM is just as bad as actual BM imo. I don't want to have to learn which is the pickle fork to play starcraft. I don't BM much but I think its fine.
if you really have break your habits to just show some respect to other people you fail anyway...
Again, E-sports is already in a bad light for most of the world due to people like the guys on Halo that rage at eachother all the time.
If we want E-sports to grow(Or atleast SC) we should be good mannered, and show we aren't just people who sit in our basement throwing shit at eachother.
If, say, Football was just starting up, and wanted to get people and their families watching, do you think those families would watch when for almost all the game the players would just swear at eachother and trashtalk?
On September 17 2010 05:43 figq wrote: Ever seen chess players talking thrash to each other? Scientists that argue about a solution? Well, playing strategy games is closer to these activities. I feel sorry for the described culture.
Bobby Fisher? And yes, scientists/professors arguing about solutions is pretty much the norm...
I have yet to see two scientist calling each other "Fucking retard" or "Fag" when they disagreed.
BM hurts e-sports, I thought we wanted it to spread, not people be afraid to jump in.
You have to admit that it would be interesting to watch scientific debate like that though regardless of subject matter.
but seriously, arguing with facts and logical reasoning is good. Actually criticism is one of the main forces of science but BM no.... just no.
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: Americans don't care about "bad manners". They want drama and a sense that the competitors really want to destroy each other.
Certainly not all do. I am American, and I absolutely hate trash talking. Whenever pro athletes open their mouths to say something nasty, I instantly change my opinion of them (unless of course my opinion was already incredibly low). Part of the reason I don't like watching pro football is how obnoxious I find the players. Obviously it happens in other sports, but it seems most pervasive in football.
The occasional light hearted BM talk is okay if you ask me, but much beyond that is too much. A good example was Flash's comment about Free's OSL run (for those of you who don't know Flash said something along the lines of "Yeah, he's undefeated until our first game"). Although, if I didn't already think Flash was a really nice, polite guy, that might have pissed me off a bit.
Another issue with everyone trash talking is that it becomes unfunny to me. Firebathero's ceremonies when he beat savior are funny, but if every player did those, then I would just find it annoying.
I guess an advantage of having arrogant super stars and polite super stars is it creates the whole "good guy, bad guy" dynamic.
Exception to the rule, you took one of the most hated footballers of all time and decided that that is HOW EVERY FOOTBALL player behaves.
Congratulations, Keane breaking that guys leg made him the most hated player in football.
If NFL was so cool "and badass lol" then the entire world would watch it, they dont. They watch football, and they admire players like Messi, not people who hack legs off others (Keane)
Diego Maradona on his rival to the 'world's best ever player' award, Pele...
"Pele should go back to the museum."
Diego Maradona on the entire nation of France and its greatest football star...
"We all know what the French are like and Platini as a Frenchman thinks he knows it all."
Diego Maradona on fatherhood...
"My legitimate kids are Dalma and Giannina. The rest are a product of my money and mistakes."
Diego Maradona on smashing the car of a photographer...
"I did it with the hand of reason."
Diego Maradona on being voted Fifa's joint Player of the Century...
"The people voted for me. Now they want me to share the prize with Pele. I'm not going to share the prize with anybody."
Diego Maradona on World Cup 1998, and clearly not anticipating this one...
"The players have all got square feet. They are like Robocops, they have more need of lubricant than massage. I don't believe the tournament could be worse."
Diego Maradona on proving the doubters wrong...
"To those who did not believe: now suck my d**k - I'm sorry ladies for my words - and keep on sucking it. I am either white or black. I will never be grey in my life. You treated me as you did. Now keep on sucking d**ks. I am grateful to my players and to the Argentinian people. I thank no one but them. The rest, keep on sucking d**ks."
Face it. Soccer is no different from American sports. Some of the athletes are classy or well-mannered, but many more are cocky and talk trash.
Its called football son, and he said all that AFTER his football career was over, you also took a man who has a track record of drug problems, aswell as attempted suicide.
So far you got a thug, and a drug abuser. Who is next? Ibrahimovic? Try him im sure you can find bm quotes. Exception to the rule
You are trying to justify acting like an asshole becuase "everyone else duz it lol", you dont need to justify any of that to me or anyone here. You can do as you please
As someone who lives in europe and follows football i can rest assure you that BM is seen as something bad and players are often told to keep it down or apologise for it (Rooney at WC).
I guess an advantage of having arrogant super stars and polite super stars is it creates the whole "good guy, bad guy" dynamic. E.g. some people like the trash-talking "bad boy," while others like the wholesome polite "good guy."
Well, on major advantage is that it actually gives you a sense of who is genuinely nice and classy.
When everyone is forced to have good manners, then you never know how they actually feel, all you know is they're keeping their heads down to avoid getting in trouble.
But if people are allowed to say whatever they want, and someone still chooses to be classy, then you know they're genuine.
I'll take honesty, even if it leads to "BM", over enforced niceness any day.
People need to learn the difference between BM and trashtalking. This thread is an example of how nobody knows what trashtalking actually is.
Also, what's up with people saying "glhf, gg" are just from SC2? I've played quite a few games competitively and almost every game began with a "glhf" and ended with a "gg". Stop trying to use Halo and CoD4 as the example of how esports manners should be.
I cant speak for koreans, but i know they dont put up with BM.
I cant speak for americans, im sure many of them are sick of the constant trash talk and garbage in sports and media.
But i dont know a single european who wants a sport star here to trash someones mother on TV, "Yo ronaldo, yo momma is a hoe!" - Messi.
That would be OMGAWSUOM perhaps in the states but not here
And no, this is not a "we are better than you" its just not something people here find "fun" or "entertaining". It is the exact reason why NFL is not popular here, and NBA also struggles.
"Omg some guy slept with LeBrons mom lolol what will he say now? OMG DRAMEH" European guy "who cares, when do they actually play basketball?"
This is what comes to mind when someone BM's. If they were really good then their play would show. There is no need to put someone down... since most people should know that the connections you make help you out in so many ways.
My preferred style of beating a trash-talker is just to stay silent and win. Unfortunately this fails to silence many trash-talkers in online games. Playing a large amount of HoN, some people will just complain and trash-talk regardless of what is being a said.
I played a ladder game a week or two ago against a toss who tried to proxy gate me. In response I added another gate before my cyber and made two zealots before he even made one (he was pretty bad). I had 4 zealots by the time I took his proxy down so I decided to send them to his base while I expanded so they didn't just sit around. He had 2 stalkers which tried to kite half my zealots while the other two took down probes (and they took down quite a few). He then says to me: "Zealout rush more noob." I soon won, but not before he called me a scrub as well. This is the kind of BM people do not want to see in the community. If SC players have to stigmatize the "healthy" kind of BM as well to get rid of this stupid shit, fine. The less we see of this baseless trash-talk and braggadocio, the better off we are.
I think playing the mental game is fine, but professional athletes do it to gain an edge. If professional gamers did it to gain an edge, well that'd be one thing. But the concept of BM/GM didn't arise from professionals. It arouse from regular people. This etiquette is put in place to keep things civil and constructive so as to put the focus on THE GAME, rather some bullshit pissing match.
Most BMers are not top players. And when they BM other people who are worse, by telling them they're bad, or doing whatever, they are seemingly forgetting their own flaws. When you fail to empathize with an inferior opponent, you are ignoring your own weaknesses. People who ignore their own weaknesses are delusional pricks. And the worse the weakness, the more delusional you are. That's why seeing BM from a silver league player seems a lot more ridiculous than seeing BM from a professional athlete, even disregarding the "interweb" factor.
All that being said, pounding a trash-talker down is so god-damned satisfying.
in starcraft 2 you try to build the perfect game, good manners goes with that. in ball sports you're commonly trying to beat a man in a contest for the ball, bm is part of a psychological ploy to get him to screw up. you're not there to execute the perfect tackle, you're there to beat that asshole. beating a guy who bms in a ball sport just feels good. sc2 has a better intellectual ideal and executing a 'clean' game feels really good. bm brings it down.
besides sc2 is a very draining game and matches are played consecutively, emotional damage carries across games and so if you get into shit it could potentially mess up the rest of your tourney/games/laddering, so being a dick has a greater impact than a ball sport that you play once a week and as a result people hate bm more.
Advantages of having good manners as a progamer: 1. You will have more fans in general, look how loved TLO is, there isent a person in SC2 community who hates that guy. Then look at IdrA and how many outright celebrated his defeat at GSL. 2. You have more "friends" amongst the pros, you can practice more matchups. If you are an assclown they naturally dont want play matches with you 3. Its alot easier to play SC2, you can focus on the game instead of the next, immature, asshat reply while you are throwing shit at each other
On September 17 2010 05:43 figq wrote: Ever seen chess players talking trash to each other? Scientists that argue about a solution? Well, playing strategy games is closer to these activities. I feel sorry for the described culture.
Bobby Fischer? And yes, scientists/professors arguing about solutions is pretty much the norm...
Arguing with trash talking however. There is no problem with trash talk, it's just noise. It means nothing. People who use it have been trained to believe it is important for some reason.
(i don't even know how to spell trash, apparently)
Saying, "I am the greatest. I'm gonna go out there and win, because I'm better than the other players" isn't be a douche, even if its cocky--its just giving your honest opinion.
Yet a lot of Starcraft fans would call that "BM" and demand that players spout some humble nonsense like, "I am a very flawed player still, but my hope is that through hard work and perseverence I will be able to win against my excellent opponents."
A lot of people seem to think I'm advocating acting like a 12 year old Modern Warfare player, and thats really not what I meant. Obviously calling everyone a fag, or making excuses every time you lose, isn't "badass", its just whiny childish bullshit.
But showing emotion, and being unafraid to state your honest opinion, even if that opinion is that you're the best (or at least, better than your opponent)? I think that can only help Starcraft.
edit: Michael Jordan and Muhammed Ali talked trash and acted cocky, but they acted NOTHING like some Halo-playing manchild. There's a big difference.
that fact that bm bothers some people is proof that it works. so as long as it bothers people it will exist. it's used in all forms of competition. grow up and deal with it.
On September 17 2010 06:22 Stossel wrote: My preferred style of beating a trash-talker is just to stay silent and win. Unfortunately this fails to silence many trash-talkers in online games. Playing a large amount of HoN, some people will just complain and trash-talk regardless of what is being a said.
I played a ladder game a week or two ago against a toss who tried to proxy gate me. In response I added another gate before my cyber and made two zealots before he even made one (he was pretty bad). I had 4 zealots by the time I took his proxy down so I decided to send them to his base while I expanded so they didn't just sit around. He had 2 stalkers which tried to kite half my zealots while the other two took down probes (and they took down quite a few). He then says to me: "Zealout rush more noob." I soon won, but not before he called me a scrub as well. This is the kind of BM people do not want to see in the community. If SC players have to stigmatize the "healthy" kind of BM as well to get rid of this stupid shit, fine. The less we see of this baseless trash-talk and braggadocio, the better off we are.
I think playing the mental game is fine, but professional athletes do it to gain an edge. If professional gamers did it to gain an edge, well that'd be one thing. But the concept of BM/GM didn't arise from professionals. It arouse from regular people. This etiquette is put in place to keep things civil and constructive so as to put the focus on THE GAME, rather some bullshit pissing match.
Most BMers are not top players. And when they BM other people who are worse, by telling them they're bad, or doing whatever, they are seemingly forgetting their own flaws. When you fail to empathize with an inferior opponent, you are ignoring your own weaknesses. People who ignore their own weaknesses are delusional pricks. And the worse the weakness, the more delusional you are. That's why seeing BM from a silver league player seems a lot more ridiculous than seeing BM from a professional athlete, even disregarding the "interweb" factor.
All that being said, pounding a trash-talker down is so god-damned satisfying.
This is the most intelligent post I've read in this thread so far.
I dont think it is exclusive to SC. You cite other sports, but people flip out over stuff like that all the time there too. I think they get a bit more desensitized as it happens more (whereas being a sport is sort of a novelty for sc).
The other difference is you are on a message board, so you see all the reactions at the same time. If you visit an mma forum, you can see similar complaints about athletes not being classy, or something harming the image of the sport etc. I'm sure someone is at home raging on their couch whenever a soccer player does something BM . I dont know if SC is particularly worse with this, but I feel it's not unreasonably more higher than anywhere else.
Maybe the rest of the world is right and us americans are jerks?
Oh wait, what do i care, Im not gunna get upset because someone is typing mean words after they lose. Makes sports and games more entertaining imo.
Note: I dont BM but I find it funny as hell
Edit:
On the subject of IdrA, being infamous for BM is better than not being known at all. I know he is one of the best zergs in the world and im not trying to imply that he is only famous for BM but people know about it and discuss it and for him thats good I doubt he cares if people dont like him, people are discussing him and thats what matters.
Saying, "I am the greatest. I'm gonna go out there and win, because I'm better than the other players" isn't be a douche, even if its cocky--its just giving your honest opinion.
That's not trash talking.
Yet a lot of Starcraft fans would call that "BM" and demand that players spout some humble nonsense like,
BM != Trashtalk
A lot of people seem to think I'm advocating acting like a 12 year old Modern Warfare player, and thats really not what I meant. Obviously calling everyone a fag, or making excuses every time you lose, isn't "badass", its just whiny childish bullshit.
Then don't use Halo or CoD as examples.
But showing emotion, and being unafraid to state your honest opinion, even if that opinion is that you're the best (or at least, better than your opponent)? I think that can only help Starcraft.
Have you seen TLO play? Or the IEM 3rd place game in Germany between Dimaga and Tarson? That's emotion.
that fact that bm bothers some people is proof that it works. so as long as it bothers people it will exist. it's used in all forms of competition. grow up and deal with it.
Works as what? What does it do other than make you a laughing stock?
Have you even checked other forums other than TL where people know IdrA just for his BM, they dont even realise the amount of work he puts in his games and how much he practices, but becuase BM is there (sometimes) he is just seen as a clown and nothing else. Sort of a circus entertaintment, yet he deserves more respect becuase of how much effort he puts, but few know that.
Meaning it dosent work, its the oppossite, it works AGAINST you.
Telling people to "grow up" and accept bad manners and trash talk is ironic, do you even know what it means to be a grown up? Im guessing not
And I'll take honest emotions over manufactured, media-friendly "niceness" any day.
Do you live in USA? What niceness is there in the media? Snooki got beaten up, Lohan is drugged up and is suiing, some woman beat her kids up, some priests molested some kids, global meltdown, all dying in 2012, iran has nuclear bombs, we all die tomorrow, al quaeda is back is bombing YOUR HOUSE NOW! etc
There is no "niceness" in the media, not even in politics (especially american politics). Its a fear mongering campaign so you spend your money on guns, incase some terrorist shows up, you buy the magazines to see how BM lohan is and how TOTALLY KEWL IT IS DAWG etc
There is also no niceness online, anywhere. How cool would it be if SC2 was the first to achieve that?
There is a difference in "I'm going to win, because I know I'm better than him". and "He is fucking trash, I'm not going to have any trouble at all."
One is trash talk, the other is just being cocky. Yes, there is a difference.
There is a difference...but the Starcraft community doesn't tend to acknowledge it. In the eyes of a lot of fans, its all just "BM".
For example In a game against the Denver Nuggets, Michael Jordan once stepped to the foul line and told rookie Dikembe Mutombo that he would shoot the free throw with his eyes closed. Before he did, he looked at Mutombo and said, “This one’s for you.” Then he closed his eyes, hit the shot and told Mutombo, “Welcome to the NBA.”
In another game, agains thte Utah Jazz, Jordan dunked on some small guard. Utah owner Larry Miller at courtside yelled for Jordan to “pick on someone your own size.”
Shortly thereafter, Jordan dunked over seven-footer Mel Turpin. “He big enough for you!” Jordan shot back.
That is how a champion trash talks. He looks someone in the eye, tells them exactly how he's gonna kick their ass, and does it.
But, I'm sure a lot of people would just criticise Jordan for "BM".
If you honestly feel that you are better than your opponent, than stating your honest emotions is going to come across as trash talk.
And I'll take honest emotions over manufactured, media-friendly "niceness" any day.
No you didn't mention Halo or whiny children. But I would suggest that because gaming culture is known for it's whiny teens, many other gamers are concerned all forms of bm and any trash talking that contains hints of bm because gaming culture's image has been hurt so bad.
Sports has that luxury of tolerating arrogant players.
that fact that bm bothers some people is proof that it works. so as long as it bothers people it will exist. it's used in all forms of competition. grow up and deal with it.
Works as what? What does it do other than make you a laughing stock?
Have you even checked other forums other than TL where people know IdrA just for his BM, they dont even realise the amount of work he puts in his games and how much he practices, but becuase BM is there (sometimes) he is just seen as a clown and nothing else. Sort of a circus entertaintment, yet he deserves more respect becuase of how much effort he puts, but few know that.
Meaning it dosent work, its the oppossite, it works AGAINST you.
Telling people to "grow up" and accept bad manners and trash talk is ironic, do you even know what it means to be a grown up? Im guessing not
Yes, I'm sure that Idra is only recognized for being a dick, not because he's a really, really fucking good player that also happens to be a hilarious dickhead.
I'm a huge cock in games. Why do people not talk about me more on random forums??
The fact that people know idra and know he is a dick proves it works. It irritates some. It pleases many. Either way, he receives more attention for it. And that's on top of his skills.
On September 17 2010 06:23 Raevin wrote: Someone mentioned how little to nothing Flash says, and yet he is super popular and loved in Korea, and even here on TL people adore that guy.
Does anyone wanna try guessing why?
A: Great haircut His hair is the reason everyone loves him, its just dashing!
B: Great name After a superhero comic at that! People love comics!
C: Great player People love how good he is at playing Brood War
Hell, ill give you 2 tries!
What does this even say about BM at all?? Between these two and you saying that no one in football talks shit... I mean, seriously?? what are you even trying to say?? Do you even know??
I always liked the sc community because it's friendly, When people is polite and respects eachother it gives for a better game and a higher spirit.
When Artosis had his showdown with Rekrul and Rekrul was all full of himself trashing Artosis about how much better he was, after he got his arse kicked by Artosis he just ended up looking ridiculus.
The problem with arrogance and bad manner is that when people start saying that they are better then someone else they tell that to themselves aswell, and when it turns out not to be true they get pisses and blames luck and all kinds of stuff while they are still ridiculusly convinced that they are better then they actually are. and this keeps on making them angry and hostile to the player who defeated them, who in return gets pissed at the other for beeing sucha bad looser. and there you go enemies/rivals for life.
I agree it's expeptionally fun to watch the player you like fight his rival and that players fans, (It's kinda like when you coutnry is playing football and you route for them) But thats only if your players has like max 3-4 rivals and those matches are a hugh highlighy. at one point when a player gets to many enemies, you will realise that he doesn't have rivals anymore he just bad manners and dislikes everyone, and grumpy people are no fun to route for.
What does this even say about BM at all?? Between these two and you saying that no one in football talks shit... I mean, seriously?? what are you even trying to say?? Do you even know??
Im not surprised you cant see it, since i spelled it out for you:
People love Flash and he isent BM at all, just as they love alot of these players.
Not only that but these players make a killer amount of money, something i think IdrA definatly would like one day, otherwise what is he doing in Korea right?
Conclusion: Its possible to make alot of money in Korea without being a assclown, because people will watch the games without "intarnat dramaz lol"
Do i need to explain it further or is it sinking in?
I disagree that it's necessarily just an American thing. Football players (soccer) trash talk quite a bit. It's just not as visible or constant because of the nature of the sport (few lulls in the game, unlike say, american football).
Hell, who doesn't remember Zidane's retaliation to some pretty serious "BM."
Jaedon: lol flash mom is a total skank Flash: F jaedon he is total loser what a ****sucker
That the majority of Koreans would not want to watch them play this game, thus rejecting your theory that being a assclown somehow makes online gaming "better"
It depends what you mean by "bm". Scouts (in BW) are almost always a good thing, add spice to a game. Pylon hearts, mind control. Ceremonies after the game are fun... trashtalk is even cool with me to an extent.
But "bm" in most video game communities is just cussing people out and lolurmom and teabagging (oh Halo how we love thee) and really that doesn't add anything to the game at all.
In short, the game could use some more cocky semi-jerks like Idra or FBH, but idiot assholes won't add anything to the scene. Personally, being a quiet person myself, I appreciate the "manner" nature of the scene (although I suspect it you went and hung around on battle.net for a while it's not actually that much better on average).
On September 17 2010 07:01 Raevin wrote: Im also willing to bet that if this happened:
Jaedon: lol flash mom is a total skank Flash: F jaedon he is total loser what a ****sucker
That the majority of Koreans would not want to watch them play this game, thus rejecting your theory that being a assclown somehow makes online gaming "better"
That was already acknowledged as being a difference in culture.
Fine whatever, but the thing I dislike most about the BW gaming scene in korea is how god awfully generic everyone seems to act. Nobody has any sort of actual personality besides FBH and to a lesser extent Bisu. It gets soooo old and boring.
I don't think SC2 or e-sports in general will ever truely thrive if people are always so annoying PC about every god damn thing.
Conquered. Edit: i don't know why I wrote conquered. I meant to write agreed. x_X
BM is BestM. Obviously GM when it counts is cool-- like allowing a restart if someone is lagging from the start, whatever kinda stuff like that. But shittalk is besttalk.
And yeah lack of personality is a huge detriment to e-sports. I know the only reason most of my friends watched the HDH was to cross our fingers that Idra would lose and rage (tyso much White-ra you made my life!).
Haven't read the entire thread, but I have to say I completely disagree with the OP. Maybe it's because I'm english, but to me, sportsmanship is everything and that carries through to videogames as well.
There was this friend of mine in class at uni (who coached a football/soccer team), and any time there was any remote degree of competition of any kind (even if we were just messing around playing some game with a scrunched up piece of paper in class), he always made an almost humorous amount of effort to congratulate the winners and generally be a good sportsman. This was infectious. Probably because of him I just love this attitude towards competition, and so I absolutely disdain the opposite.
I don't think SC2 or e-sports in general will ever truely thrive if people are always so annoying PC about every god damn thing.
Culture or not, Korea has shown that the way they have done things works. Having good manners means that the focus will be on the games, people new to it all will notice the games, not the drama.
Yet no game has approached the fame and notoriety that BW had in Korea in the western world, the image of FPS proscene is abunch of fratcore, out of shape, high school dropouts who think they are "black" because they like 50 Cent while wearing New York Yankees baseball caps sideways, why would anyone want to watch them or even take them seriously other than other douchebags like them? Whatever skill they have is overshadowed by their douchy behaviour and people lose interest.
Which is why i dont believe that every american is drawn to drama and BM, if that was the case, then WoW Arena and Halo would be more popular than the NFL!!
Because we're just not viewers, we're also participants, we don't want BM players spouting their inane garbage and discrediting our awesome ass-kickery.
When its two competitive high-level guys doing it to each other, its awesome.
I don't think SC2 or e-sports in general will ever truely thrive if people are always so annoying PC about every god damn thing.
Culture or not, Korea has shown that the way they have done things works. Having good manners means that the focus will be on the games, people new to it all will notice the games, not the drama.
Yet no game has approached the fame and notoriety that BW had in Korea in the western world, the image of FPS proscene is abunch of fratcore, out of shape, high school dropouts who think they are "black" because they like 50 Cent while wearing New York Yankees baseball caps sideways, why would anyone want to watch them or even take them seriously other than other douchebags like them? Whatever skill they have is overshadowed by their douchy behaviour and people lose interest.
Which is why i dont believe that every american is drawn to drama and BM, if that was the case, then WoW Arena and Halo would be more popular than the NFL!!
BW is an outlier and most people acknowledge that. A lot of factors came together to bring about a nearly perfectly balanced game in a culture that would allow it to thrive.
A lot of the reason BW works there is a factor of their culture...something when replicated somewhere else might not work. Everyone is not drawn to the drama but hell, rivalries make things EXCITING. There is absolutely nothing wrong about claiming you're good when you're good.
Any response other than "My opponent is good and he played well" is met with outcry, regardless of how true "I was just better" is. Nobody actually believe Flash when he says Hyuk played well, even if that's what he says.
Sports are way different than starcraft, now I know i'm gonna get tons of nerds raging on me but SC is not a sport in sports its adds to the game because of the physicallity of it, if you trash talk over an nline game its so stupid, when I played the lacrosse and hockey you would beak someone than most likely fight them later or lay them out or score a bog goal to rub it in even more, if you do it in starcraft you seem like an asshole trying to make yourself feal good knowing he can never do anything to you
On September 17 2010 06:38 boblzer0 wrote: that fact that bm bothers some people is proof that it works. so as long as it bothers people it will exist. it's used in all forms of competition. grow up and deal with it.
Oh it works one of the most famous examples I can think of was when Daily Thompson was at the LA Olympics and the gold medal was expected to either go to him or the world record holder at the time Jurgen Hingsen. He had a tee shirt printed up with "Is the World’s Second Greatest Athlete Gay?" and wore it while he warmed up. Jurgen took exception to this which amused everybody at least in this country because thats when he pretty much admitted to the world he wasn't the best. Daly won the gold and got the world record back but you need some balls to pull off that kind of stunt. I dont normally like BM but that was funny and when its your countryman or its a player for your team that you support often you give them a bit more leeway.
Overall BM might work but popularity wise you have to be able to folllow it up with results to get the people that like an anti hero to follow you.
I think michael jordan would be just as popular without his smack talking.. Ask anyone about michael jordan - would they recognize him as a great basketball legend, or a great trash-talker?
For every trash-talking famous player that you name, there is one who is humble and lets their play do the talking.
The play is what fans are tuning in for. If you want drama you are at the wrong place. Go watch some of the reality shit on MTV. You make me ashamed to be american.
It's definitely been brought up a few times on this thread, but there is definitely something to be said for the aesthetic difference between a strong athlete talking shit compared to a skinny nerd talking shit, and that creates a huge difference between the two.
If i wanted to watch people trash talking each other i would watch wrestling, not Starcraft. If you want to trash the other guy, do it with your strats, units and economy.
The difference is that when people bm, its at the end of the game. With your sports anaolgy, even teams that hate each other, like a yankees red sox playoff series, they still usually respectfully congrats and shake hands at the end, and equivalent to calling gg. You don't see any sports players at the postgame interview say "that other team sucks, we should have won." They say, "we got outplayed, and have to improve."
What does this even say about BM at all?? Between these two and you saying that no one in football talks shit... I mean, seriously?? what are you even trying to say?? Do you even know??
Im not surprised you cant see it, since i spelled it out for you:
People love Flash and he isent BM at all, just as they love alot of these players.
Not only that but these players make a killer amount of money, something i think IdrA definatly would like one day, otherwise what is he doing in Korea right?
Conclusion: Its possible to make alot of money in Korea without being a assclown, because people will watch the games without "intarnat dramaz lol"
Do i need to explain it further or is it sinking in?
You said people love flash because he's a good player. That has absolutely nothing to do with his manners. It's totally and completely separate....
Not to mention that FBH's antics were considered by some to be 'bm' and he certainly had a lot of appeal. So whatever straw you're grasping at there is just totally wrong too.
There's a major disconnect between what you're apparently thinking and what you're saying and the funny thing is that neither of them have to do with anything the op said about how trash talking makes the game more personal and would therefore be even more appealing to American fans.
There is a difference in "I'm going to win, because I know I'm better than him". and "He is fucking trash, I'm not going to have any trouble at all."
One is trash talk, the other is just being cocky. Yes, there is a difference.
There is a difference...but the Starcraft community doesn't tend to acknowledge it. In the eyes of a lot of fans, its all just "BM".
For example In a game against the Denver Nuggets, Michael Jordan once stepped to the foul line and told rookie Dikembe Mutombo that he would shoot the free throw with his eyes closed. Before he did, he looked at Mutombo and said, “This one’s for you.” Then he closed his eyes, hit the shot and told Mutombo, “Welcome to the NBA.”
In another game, agains thte Utah Jazz, Jordan dunked on some small guard. Utah owner Larry Miller at courtside yelled for Jordan to “pick on someone your own size.”
Shortly thereafter, Jordan dunked over seven-footer Mel Turpin. “He big enough for you!” Jordan shot back.
That is how a champion trash talks. He looks someone in the eye, tells them exactly how he's gonna kick their ass, and does it.
But, I'm sure a lot of people would just criticise Jordan for "BM".
When has IdrA or any other example done anything like that?
Did anyone catch MLG WoW Arena? At one point, a player from a team said
"Hey (some name from other team), fuck you!"
Do you know where WoW arena pro scene is now? People doing PvP is at all time low, several community websites have to be closed down such as worldofming.com, simply because people lost interest and nobody wants to watch such behaviour.
That site lost viewership because the content by the "bloggers" was focused on trash talking and smearing others, yet it soared with success 2 years ago when it talked about the actual game, giving people tips on arena and just being a positive place to be.
If Teamliquid decided to have people write blogs about how shitty [insert_player] is and how stupid they are while using stupid 4chan memes and other childish behaviour i can guarrantie you they lose alot of the community they have built up.
Villains make a sport more exciting. Sure, the Patriots 2007 season would have still been great to watch, regardless of their sportsmanship. But I don't think it's crazy to say, that for many, it made it all the more compelling that they blew their opponents out, that they had an FU mentality.
No one is saying that without trash talking, we wouldn't enjoy sports. But having some trash talkers mixed in with the humble players makes for better viewing. And after all, why are we watching sports? To be entertained.
The only way e-sports is going to be taken seriously by the general public (aka garner corporate sponsorships and money) is if this game is played by professionals who will represent the companies in a professional way. I'm sorry but Idra is not a good representation of a progamer. He can be as good as he wants to be skill-wise but he is not helping the game move forward in terms of its acceptance for people outside the gaming community.
I welcome BM in the lower levels, I think it's really funny to watch two terrible players insulting each other. But I just find it annoying on a higher level, it's just not something I want to see in SC2.
On September 17 2010 07:28 Raevin wrote: Did anyone catch MLG WoW Arena? At one point, a player from a team said
"Hey (some name from other team), fuck you!"
Do you know where WoW arena pro scene is now? People doing PvP is at all time low, several community websites have to be closed down such as worldofming.com, simply because people lost interest and nobody wants to watch such behaviour.
That site lost viewership because the content by the "bloggers" was focused on trash talking and smearing others, yet it soared with success 2 years ago when it talked about the actual game, giving people tips on arena and just being a positive place to be.
If Teamliquid decided to have people write blogs about how shitty [insert_player] is and how stupid they are while using stupid 4chan memes and other childish behaviour i can guarrantie you they lose alot of the community they have built up.
You're trying to say that because someone said Fuck You in a game: * The WoW pro scene collapsed * People have decided PvP isn't interesting * worldofming.com closed simply because of this
Awesome logic there.
You do realize that the amount of people who'd like to watch any kind of competitive video game is incredibly small given the size of this country, and those that do typically like FPS and not WoW? Or that the game has aged very much since two years ago, and therefore is likely less appealing... people grow up, move on, new blood does not come in as much. There are so many other halfway logical explanations for those declines, and none start with someone saying FUCK YOU on a MLG tournament. Jesus.
I'm OK with a bit of sledging but plain arrogance/bm is stupid and ruins the game. Only in America is this idiocy idolised and let's keep it that way please.
On September 17 2010 07:27 yoshi_yoshi wrote: I'm baffled by the same question, OP. As far as male-dominated internet communities go, TL is just about the most sensitive I've seen.
Edit: not that I support bad manners, but it's the internet... who cares.
It's not that we get offended by being called a 'gay cheeser' or something, don't confuse it with sensitivity - it's more the principle that people don't want that to be a part of a game they want to be taken seriously. It kind of falls in to the same category as insulting, backchatting or threatening a referee or even the spectators in a sport - just not part of the game - and this extends to the relationship between players in SC.
Like I said I don't want it to be as strict as Korea where they are all timid and mild-mannered and can't even chat in the game outside of 'gg', but I don't think people should just have free reign over what they say - just keep it respectable, a little bit of heckling is fine but don't make it personal.
I think BM is funny when it's done in-game via actions, like throwing your SCVs and MULEs at an opponent. This kind of thing is usually funny for everyone involved (besides maybe the opposing player).
Raging at the other player or claiming he only won because of imbalance in the game is not. The reason you don't hear this complaint in football is because there is nothing to balance. Bad referee calls though... yeah, those are HUGE deal in football.
You said people love flash because he's a good player. That has absolutely nothing to do with his manners. It's totally and completely separate....
Im not gonna give up on you, im gonna try to explain it AGAIN:
If Flash was a trash talking BMer, most people in korea would not find that interesting nor want to watch his matches, regardless of how good he is.
Do you understand that? Koreans do not tolerate bad behaviour in any aspects of their lives, this is not some exclusive online gaming thing, they dont tolerate that in their media, television, press anything.
They find it disrespectful and lacking in honor and grace.
Not to mention that FBH's antics were considered by some to be 'bm' and he certainly had a lot of appeal. So whatever straw you're grasping at there is just totally wrong too.
By some yea, and yet they really werent BM, they were BM compared to the 100% positive and happy mode of others, if a player sneezed he was "BM" compared to others. BM are clear insults of others, im 100% convinced a player doing this in korea would be booted out of any league or tournament.
There's a major disconnect between what you're apparently thinking and what you're saying and the funny thing is that neither of them have to do with anything the op said about how trash talking makes the game more personal and would therefore be even more appealing to American fans.
Sadly you own americans dont all agree, if this was the case then Halo would be bigger in USA than BW is in Korea as the constant trash talk even amongst "pros" would propell the game to be bigger than NFL.
I dont think most americans want to listen to the N word, the F word and the S word being said multiple times during a game.
Maybe i give americans too much credit but i honestly dont believe that
Its a total overexagguration of BM in some peoples cases its not like they even say something that bad, just usually sarcastic or some light burn. I find it quite childish how some people get so worked up over such small things.
On September 17 2010 07:26 zomgtossrush wrote: The difference is that when people bm, its at the end of the game. With your sports anaolgy, even teams that hate each other, like a yankees red sox playoff series, they still usually respectfully congrats and shake hands at the end, and equivalent to calling gg. You don't see any sports players at the postgame interview say "that other team sucks, we should have won." They say, "we got outplayed, and have to improve."
I definitely agree with this. There are times when you can trash talk and times when you shouldn't. Many athletes get angry after a loss, but most don't lash out at their opponents.
You're trying to say that because someone said Fuck You in a game: * The WoW pro scene collapsed * People have decided PvP isn't interesting * worldofming.com closed simply because of this
Awesome logic there.
You do realize that the amount of people who'd like to watch any kind of competitive video game is incredibly small given the size of this country, and those that do typically like FPS and not WoW? Or that the game has aged very much since two years ago, and therefore is likely less appealing... people grow up, move on, new blood does not come in as much. There are so many other halfway logical explanations for those declines, and none start with someone saying FUCK YOU on a MLG tournament. Jesus.
It is amazing just how little you understand. The "Fuck you" is just a example of what the community has been like since it began. Which is why it never took off even 2 years ago when it was semi decent in Burning Crusade.
It couldnt take off becuase of the douchebags playing the game, nobody wanted to watch that. The people who gave it a shot, left one by one, as they did worldofming.com
Yes i know what your reply is "you just dont understand us americans brah, we need drama and BM, i wanna see a guy decapitaded on stage next MLG that would bring esport to the masses not all this "well mannered" s*** brah"
The reason we don't like BM is that it shows a lack of respect for the other player. Trash talk is fine, but not saying gg is something much more than that.
I really like trash talking and funny quotes, but in Bnet there are soo many stupid BM users, it's not the same thing. I'm okay with it when it implies competition, some win/loss sentences, or bashing someone in an interview.
But when I see things like : "lol hacker you noob" and worse, it's just frustration in my eyes, not BMing.
For example, I'm a big fan of IdrA, he likes to trash talk some dudes sometimes, however, people on Bnet tends to hide with their anonymity to insult, and that's not the same thing.
You said people love flash because he's a good player. That has absolutely nothing to do with his manners. It's totally and completely separate....
Im not gonna give up on you, im gonna try to explain it AGAIN:
If Flash was a trash talking BMer, most people in korea would not find that interesting nor want to watch his matches, regardless of how good he is.
Do you understand that? Koreans do not tolerate bad behaviour in any aspects of their lives, this is not some exclusive online gaming thing, they dont tolerate that in their media, television, press anything.
They find it disrespectful and lacking in honor and grace.
Not to mention that FBH's antics were considered by some to be 'bm' and he certainly had a lot of appeal. So whatever straw you're grasping at there is just totally wrong too.
By some yea, and yet they really werent BM, they were BM compared to the 100% positive and happy mode of others, if a player sneezed he was "BM" compared to others. BM are clear insults of others, im 100% convinced a player doing this in korea would be booted out of any league or tournament.
There's a major disconnect between what you're apparently thinking and what you're saying and the funny thing is that neither of them have to do with anything the op said about how trash talking makes the game more personal and would therefore be even more appealing to American fans.
Sadly you own americans dont all agree, if this was the case then Halo would be bigger in USA than BW is in Korea as the constant trash talk even amongst "pros" would propell the game to be bigger than NFL.
I dont think most americans want to listen to the N word, the F word and the S word being said multiple times during a game.
Maybe i give americans too much credit but i honestly dont believe that
Halo is the biggest E-sport in America as far as I know. You argue against yourself.
Obviously BM doesn't mean saying "FUCK U GO DIE POOPLICKER. MASS THOR? MORE LIKE MASSWHORE LOLOLOL" when you lose.
I'd consider good BM something like, on game 2 after beating off a proxy in game 1, they proxy again, and in chat taking a moment to type "Really? You're going to try a fail proxy again? For shame." when you're confident you can smash it, of course.
Also, stuff like Pylon Hearts, GG forcefields, etc kick ass.
i really dont mind BM at all when i lose a game, cuz i do sometimes when i win. funny thing is, probably 70% of the people who BM are physically weak people who would not dare to do that to your face in real life. false internet courage is what im saying basically. and yes, like the above post, "bm in sc is like bm in chess." lol
You know what's made players great? When they win and talk crazy trash afterward.
Boxer bunker rushing. Or saying "this is lot of tanks yes?" is what MADE him AMAZING. He was a really good player before, but those things made him go beyond starcraft and into gaming as a whole.
zet,neo, and shaguar yelling things at their opposing teams in CS made them legends inside and outside the game. Half of the appeal of f0rest from fnatic is him changing his name to iZnoGooD in the finals or at any time, effectively berating his own team - and by extension yours when you're getting rolled by him.
Cooller talking trash in quake and outside of game is what made him a legend along with his prodigious play.
Basically - IF YOU ARE A BALLER AND YOU KNOW SHOW IT. TALK SOME TRASH IT MAKES ME LOL HARD. Although don't go to far - hostile's a dick because he opens his mouth too much.
<i>Halo is the biggest E-sport in America as far as I know. You argue against yourself.</i>
Yea not much competition is there? And how many people tune in to watch these "superstars" play?
Is it often shown on national television where millions tune in?
Im not even being sarcastic, i honestly dont know, is there alot of interest for this where you can actually claim it has broken through and its something alot of americans care about?
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: TBH, The only "BM" that I find disgraceful is when someone loses, and then says that the guy they just lost too sucks. But thats not because of bad manners, it just because it seems like making excuses (looking at you, IdrA and Artosis). If you're gonna talk trash, do it before the game, and back it up.
Interesting post overall - quite well-written as well. I will disagree with the part I quoted though. While I think it is stupid to say a person sucks in general whether it's BEFORE OR AFTER a game, I think it's perfectly fine to say something like: "You played horrible that game but still won cause I made one or two smaller mistakes that just happened to have a bigger impact on the game (luck)." or in perhaps more common sentences "lucky %&#$er" or "lucky nooby"
Anyone who doesn't believe that a worse player can eventually beat a better player has to be out of their mind. The reason they win isn't because they are better, or even that they played better(most likely at least), but that they essentially got lucky.
Especially when you combine bad players with imbalanced races (or maps), you can get a substantial skill differential where one player flat out plays worse than another but still wins due to inherent advantages.
This can also happen in Free For Alls.
And that is why not being able to insult someone just because you lost is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.
On September 17 2010 07:41 MythicalMage wrote: The reason we don't like BM is that it shows a lack of respect for the other player. Trash talk is fine, but not saying gg is something much more than that.
WHAT?! Are you trying to say that not GGing after a game is worse than trash talk? That is a sick joke. GG means good game... it's not some magic word that vindicates you from being BM or disliked, or that means anything other than what the words mean "Good Game". Don't say it if you don't mean it, and if you mean something else, say something else.
Basically - IF YOU ARE A BALLER AND YOU KNOW SHOW IT. TALK SOME TRASH IT MAKES ME LOL HARD. Although don't go to far - hostile's a dick because he opens his mouth too much.
You are not a african american living in Brooklyn, using "baller" makes you look like Vanilla Ice is playing SC2 again. Sure you can use any word you want, but it really reflects badly on you. Just like those white guys in 1991 saying "its wack yo"
Im sorry for "BMing" you, (how ironic) and apologise
No. Tried and true all the way. Gaming nerds are the target demographic, not hicks sitting on their couch in the front lawn with their 45'' standard def TV hanging out the window with a kiddie pool full of water, ice and Bud Light.
Because clearly only rednecks like Football, Basketball or Baseball.
Or, you know, not, given that something like 100 million Americans, or about 40% of the population, watch the Superbowl.
I was speaking in relation to professional wrestling, calm down.
No. Tried and true all the way. Gaming nerds are the target demographic, not hicks sitting on their couch in the front lawn with their 45'' standard def TV hanging out the window with a kiddie pool full of water, ice and Bud Light.
Because clearly only rednecks like Football, Basketball or Baseball.
Or, you know, not, given that something like 100 million Americans, or about 40% of the population, watch the Superbowl.
I was speaking in relation to professional wrestling, calm down.
Great, now you're generalizing and offending those that watch and enjoy Professional Wrestling. Guys like me.
On September 17 2010 07:45 VAR1ABLES wrote: You know what's made players great? When they win and talk crazy trash afterward.
Boxer bunker rushing. Or saying "this is lot of tanks yes?" is what MADE him AMAZING. He was a really good player before, but those things made him go beyond starcraft and into gaming as a whole.
zet,neo, and shaguar yelling things at their opposing teams in CS made them legends inside and outside the game. Half of the appeal of f0rest from fnatic is him changing his name to iZnoGooD in the finals or at any time, effectively berating his own team - and by extension yours when you're getting rolled by him.
Cooller talking trash in quake and outside of game is what made him a legend along with his prodigious play.
Basically - IF YOU ARE A BALLER AND YOU KNOW SHOW IT. TALK SOME TRASH IT MAKES ME LOL HARD. Although don't go to far - hostile's a dick because he opens his mouth too much.
Even if you're a pale malnourished skinny little nerd you can be baller if you're bm. It makes you cool like Boxer.
You said people love flash because he's a good player. That has absolutely nothing to do with his manners. It's totally and completely separate....
Im not gonna give up on you, im gonna try to explain it AGAIN:
If Flash was a trash talking BMer, most people in korea would not find that interesting nor want to watch his matches, regardless of how good he is.
Do you understand that? Koreans do not tolerate bad behaviour in any aspects of their lives, this is not some exclusive online gaming thing, they dont tolerate that in their media, television, press anything.
They find it disrespectful and lacking in honor and grace.
Not to mention that FBH's antics were considered by some to be 'bm' and he certainly had a lot of appeal. So whatever straw you're grasping at there is just totally wrong too.
By some yea, and yet they really werent BM, they were BM compared to the 100% positive and happy mode of others, if a player sneezed he was "BM" compared to others. BM are clear insults of others, im 100% convinced a player doing this in korea would be booted out of any league or tournament.
There's a major disconnect between what you're apparently thinking and what you're saying and the funny thing is that neither of them have to do with anything the op said about how trash talking makes the game more personal and would therefore be even more appealing to American fans.
Sadly you own americans dont all agree, if this was the case then Halo would be bigger in USA than BW is in Korea as the constant trash talk even amongst "pros" would propell the game to be bigger than NFL.
Maybe i give americans too much credit but i honestly dont believe that
What does Korean culture, which you even acknowledge as being totally and completely different, have to do with American gaming culture, which is what the entire op is about??
To boil it down to it's most simple form, the op said: Americans like their pros skilled and emotionally invested, and they would probably enjoy the game more if there was trash talking
And jesus, all this talk about bigger than the NFL. A majority of Americans don't give a fuck about ANY competitive video games, good god. That whole last sentence just doesn't make any sense.
You're trying to say that because someone said Fuck You in a game: * The WoW pro scene collapsed * People have decided PvP isn't interesting * worldofming.com closed simply because of this
Awesome logic there.
You do realize that the amount of people who'd like to watch any kind of competitive video game is incredibly small given the size of this country, and those that do typically like FPS and not WoW? Or that the game has aged very much since two years ago, and therefore is likely less appealing... people grow up, move on, new blood does not come in as much. There are so many other halfway logical explanations for those declines, and none start with someone saying FUCK YOU on a MLG tournament. Jesus.
It is amazing just how little you understand. The "Fuck you" is just a example of what the community has been like since it began. Which is why it never took off even 2 years ago when it was semi decent in Burning Crusade.
It couldnt take off becuase of the douchebags playing the game, nobody wanted to watch that. The people who gave it a shot, left one by one, as they did worldofming.com
Yes i know what your reply is "you just dont understand us americans brah, we need drama and BM, i wanna see a guy decapitaded on stage next MLG that would bring esport to the masses not all this "well mannered" s*** brah"
You said it was successful two years ago. Your own words (emphasis mine, since reading doesn't seem to be your strong point)
On September 17 2010 07:28 Raevin wrote: Did anyone catch MLG WoW Arena? At one point, a player from a team said
"Hey (some name from other team), fuck you!"
Do you know where WoW arena pro scene is now? People doing PvP is at all time low, several community websites have to be closed down such as worldofming.com, simply because people lost interest and nobody wants to watch such behaviour.
That site lost viewership because the content by the "bloggers" was focused on trash talking and smearing others, yet it soared with success 2 years ago when it talked about the actual game, giving people tips on arena and just being a positive place to be.
If Teamliquid decided to have people write blogs about how shitty [insert_player] is and how stupid they are while using stupid 4chan memes and other childish behaviour i can guarrantie you they lose alot of the community they have built up.
Oh my god that crappy staging really suits CGS, as it's been an utter failure ever since... That's just plain stupid and I hope it won't ever occur again in eSports...
What does Korean culture, which you even acknowledge as being totally and completely different, have to do with American gaming culture, which is what the entire op is about??
To boil it down to it's most simple form, the op said: Americans like their pros skilled and emotionally invested, and they would probably enjoy the game more if there was trash talking
And jesus, all this talk about bigger than the NFL. A majority of Americans don't give a fuck about ANY competitive video games, good god. That whole last sentence just doesn't make any sense.
Perhaps they dont give a fuck because of the bad image of pro video game players who like speak like former KKK members, homophobes and generally BM people? Ever thought of that? Did that idea ever cross your mind that perhaps that is why nobody wants to watch it in america?
You said it was successful two years ago. Your own words (emphasis mine, since reading doesn't seem to be your strong point)
The site was successfull 2 years ago when it FOCUSED ON THE GAME, not the drama within the game, they lost viewers because of that. People came to the site to read the tips of pros, then it gradually turned into a BM site full of 4chan gags and garbage smearing, people left because of that.
...screw it, becuase its not going to sink it, becuase you simply refuse to think logically here. Your opinion is that HuK needs to beat up Day9 at the next MLG event, go to the commentator booth and cuss him out while stomping on him, that is what america wants!
And you have totally failed to realise that you are ROOTING for bad manners in a videogame, yes you, you want this to go on, and to become even bigger.
This is an amazing thread. I really had no idea that professional sports and general attitudes were so different in America. It definitely gives me another context now to think about what American players say when issues like BM or IdrA come up.
Just to repeat what's already been said - pro sports and the sort of behavior that is expected are totally different in (some) other countries. The childish thing - well, it's true, if some pro baseballer said rude things about another player in public, or pretended that they actually hated or wanted to hurt another player, it would be seen as childish and completely wrong for baseball. Baseball players in school teams are held to a very high standard of personal conduct, it's part of the whole baseball culture. The attitude is that adults know how to control their emotions and that children can't.
From the OP I get the message that Americans find the sports more fun to watch if there is the feeling that the players actually hate each other or don't respect the opponent or that they want to be violent "off the field", and that the theatrics of violence, even though it is actually a sport with rules and so on, add to the enjoyment. In Japan anyway, again taking baseball as an example, with competitions like koushien (highschool baseball), the enjoyment is in watching the boys achieve their personal dream through extreme personal effort/self-discipline/overcoming "themselves". It's very different (as far as I can tell from here anyway).
So yes, when it comes to starcraft too, the attitudes are very different. BM just makes the player look like a child. I don't mean that as an insult, it's literally what it looks like. If that is intelligible.
What is it like in European cultures I wonder?
Edit: Understood, what some people said about the OP not reflecting all Americans/the whole of American culture. Fair enough. There does seem to be a cultural gap though, individual tastes aside.
What does Korean culture, which you even acknowledge as being totally and completely different, have to do with American gaming culture, which is what the entire op is about??
To boil it down to it's most simple form, the op said: Americans like their pros skilled and emotionally invested, and they would probably enjoy the game more if there was trash talking
And jesus, all this talk about bigger than the NFL. A majority of Americans don't give a fuck about ANY competitive video games, good god. That whole last sentence just doesn't make any sense.
Perhaps they dont give a fuck because of the bad image of pro video game players who like speak like former KKK members, homophobes and generally BM people? Ever thought of that? Did that idea ever cross your mind that perhaps that is why nobody wants to watch it in america?
You said it was successful two years ago. Your own words (emphasis mine, since reading doesn't seem to be your strong point)
The site was successfull 2 years ago when it FOCUSED ON THE GAME, not the drama within the game, they lost viewers because of that. People came to the site to read the tips of pros, then it gradually turned into a BM site full of 4chan gags and garbage smearing, people left because of that.
...screw it, becuase its not going to sink it, becuase you simply refuse to think logically here. Your opinion is that HuK needs to beat up Day9 at the next MLG event, go to the commentator booth and cuss him out while stomping on him, that is what america wants!
And you have totally failed to realise that you are ROOTING for bad manners in a videogame, yes you, you want this to go on, and to become even bigger.
On September 17 2010 07:40 Raevin wrote: The "Fuck you" is just a example of what the community has been like since it began. Which is why it never took off even 2 years ago when it was semi decent in Burning Crusade.
Which is it?? You can't seem to make up your mind.
On September 17 2010 08:06 Raevin wrote: And you have totally failed to realise that you are ROOTING for bad manners in a videogame, yes you, you want this to go on, and to become even bigger.
At this point, I'm more rooting for you to just learn how to even understand the very basic concept that the OP and myself are even talking about.
You're rambling on about Korea when he's talking about America. And you've somehow concluded that Wow, which is only popular amongst gamers that make up a very small portion of the country, failed at the competitive scene because of BM... without any evidence for that.
Meanwhile, you can just look at the number of people in the country, the number of registered,active accounts and take an educated guess that the reason it didn't success was probably that there really aren't that many people who actually give a shit about WoW when compared with the size of the country, and that not even all of those people would care about competitive WoW.
You ignore that very readily accepted fact when arguing that FPS games should be bigger than NFL because of BM. All people over the age of 30 know what the NFL is. Most would think an FPS is a car model.
But hey, don't let that stand in the way of your logic!
On September 17 2010 08:08 chocopan wrote: What is it like in European cultures I wonder?
Edit: Understood, what some people said about the OP not reflecting all Americans/the whole of American culture. Fair enough. There does seem to be a cultural gap though, individual tastes aside.
I would say we are a bit in-between, but leaning more towards the Korean/Japanese view. But that is just my opinion. Europe has a lot of cultural diversity. ^^
Just skimmed (correct word?) the post. But well, its a difference between some athletes showing off some bad manners and taunting and when a gamer does it. Whats the difference? It takes some balls to do that when facing the person. A computer geek sitting behind his screen spreading bullshit over the net has no balls in it. Its just laughable. I mean, if Micheal Jordan comes to me telling me I'm a sissy i will sure as hell teach him some manners instantly with my fist or some verbal abuse - probably would go for the racial slurs. But when some fukkin kid goes trash talking on the net its just the classical face palm and a good laugh.
You can't compare bad manner in actual sports to e-sports, because NBA/NFL/NHL ect ect are all accepted in our culture here in the west so were more tolerable to trash talking. To be honest if I knew nothing about professional gaming and watched a game of SC2 and saw someone just rage, I would probably think "Lol this kid needs to calm down"
Honestly lets compare BM from actual sports to e-sports. I personally love watching Hockey, and the "BM" in hockey is really aggressive checks that completely level the other person or when 2 players from different teams take there gloves off and start whaling at each other. Now compare that to "BM" in sc2 , first thing that comes to mind for me is the IdrA vs Drewbie game where IdrA said "I want you to apologize for playing that race" Yea it was funny when I first read it, but really didn't spark no rivalry nor did it really enhance my enjoyment of the game.
I dunno, I don't mind BM, but comparing actual athletes to nerds who type angry stuff at each other is just silly. You can't compare the two.
On September 17 2010 07:40 Raevin wrote: The "Fuck you" is just a example of what the community has been like since it began. Which is why it never took off even 2 years ago when it was semi decent in Burning Crusade.
Which is it?? You can't seem to make up your mind.
Hehe, wow i dont even know what exactly it is you are so confused about.
1. The ingame community was always terrible, people flocked to worldofming.com to get a more..."pro" view of things such as tactics and builds becuase they couldnt find that on the offical forums as they were too BM.
2. Worldofming.com decides later that a more "BM" 4chan style is needed becuase people like drama right? This is the direction they should take
3. They realise that they lose viewers becuase of this, and here we are today.
The reason why Elitist Jerks is still popular is that they dont tolerate BM of any kind, you are insta banned there.
There, i am sorry but english is not even my fourth language, that is the best way i can explain it, if some american or englishman reads this and feels this can be pointed out better for this fine gentleman Hawk to understand, be my guest, because it seems impossible for him to comprehend such a simple timeline.
What does Korean culture, which you even acknowledge as being totally and completely different, have to do with American gaming culture, which is what the entire op is about??
To boil it down to it's most simple form, the op said: Americans like their pros skilled and emotionally invested, and they would probably enjoy the game more if there was trash talking
And jesus, all this talk about bigger than the NFL. A majority of Americans don't give a fuck about ANY competitive video games, good god. That whole last sentence just doesn't make any sense.
Perhaps they dont give a fuck because of the bad image of pro video game players who like speak like former KKK members, homophobes and generally BM people? Ever thought of that? Did that idea ever cross your mind that perhaps that is why nobody wants to watch it in america?
You said it was successful two years ago. Your own words (emphasis mine, since reading doesn't seem to be your strong point)
The site was successfull 2 years ago when it FOCUSED ON THE GAME, not the drama within the game, they lost viewers because of that. People came to the site to read the tips of pros, then it gradually turned into a BM site full of 4chan gags and garbage smearing, people left because of that.
...screw it, becuase its not going to sink it, becuase you simply refuse to think logically here. Your opinion is that HuK needs to beat up Day9 at the next MLG event, go to the commentator booth and cuss him out while stomping on him, that is what america wants!
And you have totally failed to realise that you are ROOTING for bad manners in a videogame, yes you, you want this to go on, and to become even bigger.
How about just wanting to let players have their own personality, whatever that may be. It is not the community's right to control it.
Plenty of gamers are nice guys - it's not like TLO would suddenly become an ass just because nobody is telling him not to.
I think you are vastly overestimating the effect BM has on what causes a sport or e-sport to succeed or fail.
The only BM that pisses me off is the offensive GG. That's just obnoxious, especially since you waited until you actually won to trash talk. Don't be a bitch and at least be an asshole before the game too.
On September 17 2010 08:08 chocopan wrote: This is an amazing thread. I really had no idea that professional sports and general attitudes were so different in America. It definitely gives me another context now to think about what American players say when issues like BM or IdrA come up.
Just to repeat what's already been said - pro sports and the sort of behavior that is expected are totally different in (some) other countries. The childish thing - well, it's true, if some pro baseballer said rude things about another player in public, or pretended that they actually hated or wanted to hurt another player, it would be seen as childish and completely wrong for baseball. Baseball players in school teams are held to a very high standard of personal conduct, it's part of the whole baseball culture. The attitude is that adults know how to control their emotions and that children can't.
From the OP I get the message that Americans find the sports more fun to watch if there is the feeling that the players actually hate each other or don't respect the opponent or that they want to be violent "off the field", and that the theatrics of violence, even though it is actually a sport with rules and so on, add to the enjoyment. In Japan anyway, again taking baseball as an example, with competitions like koushien (highschool baseball), the enjoyment is in watching the boys achieve their personal dream through extreme personal effort/self-discipline/overcoming "themselves". It's very different (as far as I can tell from here anyway).
So yes, when it comes to starcraft too, the attitudes are very different. BM just makes the player look like a child. I don't mean that as an insult, it's literally what it looks like. If that is intelligible.
What is it like in European cultures I wonder?
Edit: Understood, what some people said about the OP not reflecting all Americans/the whole of American culture. Fair enough. There does seem to be a cultural gap though, individual tastes aside.
You can't really compare BW to baseball, especially koushien. In BW you have a choice between playing a mechanical game, or a mind game. This is why winning rates usually are so low (besides Flash) and why they don't really use bo1's for qualifiers anymore. Sometimes when you are the better player mechanically you feel really shitty when you lose to someone who didn't outplay you, but relied on you messing up.
On September 17 2010 08:08 chocopan wrote: This is an amazing thread. I really had no idea that professional sports and general attitudes were so different in America. It definitely gives me another context now to think about what American players say when issues like BM or IdrA come up.
Just to repeat what's already been said - pro sports and the sort of behavior that is expected are totally different in (some) other countries. The childish thing - well, it's true, if some pro baseballer said rude things about another player in public, or pretended that they actually hated or wanted to hurt another player, it would be seen as childish and completely wrong for baseball. Baseball players in school teams are held to a very high standard of personal conduct, it's part of the whole baseball culture. The attitude is that adults know how to control their emotions and that children can't.
From the OP I get the message that Americans find the sports more fun to watch if there is the feeling that the players actually hate each other or don't respect the opponent or that they want to be violent "off the field", and that the theatrics of violence, even though it is actually a sport with rules and so on, add to the enjoyment. In Japan anyway, again taking baseball as an example, with competitions like koushien (highschool baseball), the enjoyment is in watching the boys achieve their personal dream through extreme personal effort/self-discipline/overcoming "themselves". It's very different (as far as I can tell from here anyway).
So yes, when it comes to starcraft too, the attitudes are very different. BM just makes the player look like a child. I don't mean that as an insult, it's literally what it looks like. If that is intelligible.
What is it like in European cultures I wonder?
Edit: Understood, what some people said about the OP not reflecting all Americans/the whole of American culture. Fair enough. There does seem to be a cultural gap though, individual tastes aside.
You can't really compare BW to baseball, especially koushien. In BW you have a choice between playing a mechanical game, or a mind game. This is why winning rates usually are so low (besides Flash) and why they don't really use bo1's for qualifiers anymore. Sometimes when you are the better player mechanically you feel really shitty when you lose to someone who didn't outplay you, but relied on you messing up.
The option of mechanical vs mind game is there in Baseball as well. Just not in such extremes ways as in SC. Things like where to pitch is in a large part mind games, unless you are so good mechanically that you don't need them, constantly fouling to mess with the pitcher, bunts and fakes of bunts...
You can play mind games in baseball or any sport too. Inquire about the availability of the catcher's mother for that evening and I'm pretty sure he won't be too focused on flashing the right signal.
My homie raevin apparently forgot that it goes on in soccer. Matterazzi has the most brilliant trash talking of all time, taking the best French player out of the game by trolling him so hard. That's hardly the only instance of trash talking in soccer. That shit goes on in all levels in all countries.
BM in the form of taunting your opponent ingame, through unit actions, is perfectly fine and very entertaining IMO. Like patroldancing, spelling out words with creep tumors, getting random nukes, motherships, calling down mules in your opponent's main, etc. That's all awesome.
But just straight up telling your opponent that they're terrible makes you sound really arrogant, especially if you happen to lose to them the next game or something. If you're going to trashtalk, you should be creative about it, and not use words.
This whole comparison between sports and e-sports is way off. Take the examples you guys are using -- if you saw IdrA playing in the NBA and start saying how fucking bad his opponent was after he was beat, and demanded he apologize for being a black person because it's the easy race, you'd boo him off the court and he'd most likely get shit thrown at him. If you see someone walk to their Starcraft booth with a cocky smirk on their face, stop, look at the crowd, hold up ten fingers and mouth, "ten minutes," you'd fucking love that guy for his confidence. Look at NaDa. When I first started watching pro Brood War, I immediately clung to NaDa, not just because of his play, but because it was a game where, after his win, NaDa stretched the left breast of his jacket to show his medals with one hand, counted them with the other, and said, "one, two, three."
HAHAAHAH that was so epic. It reminds me of Full Metal Jacket for some reason. Yeh you don't need to swear or anything to be "BM". Some people are competitive like that. It seems like people who play SC were the nerds who got bullied too much so now they are ultra-sensitive so they can't deal with the most minor BM.
Did anyone see the most recent State of the Game?
The host guy said he was getting a DSI and I hear Incontrol say the DSI is stupid shit and I was like "yeh it is", but the host guy got all huffy and mad about it. But when the host guy made fun of Incontrol by saying he had no neck (aka fat), Incontrol was like "I have to admit that was really funny" and took it fine. In other words we need more people who can take insults better than get overly defensive and mad.
On September 17 2010 08:25 Cedstick wrote: This whole comparison between sports and e-sports is way off. Take the examples you guys are using -- if you saw IdrA playing in the NBA and start saying how fucking bad his opponent was after he was beat, and demanded he apologize for being a black person because it's the easy race, you'd boo him off the court and he'd most likely get shit thrown at him. If you see someone walk to their Starcraft booth with a cocky smirk on their face, stop, look at the crowd, hold up ten fingers and mouth, "ten minutes," you'd fucking love that guy for his confidence. Look at NaDa. When I first started watching pro Brood War, I immediately clung to NaDa, not just because of his play, but because it was a game where, after his win, NaDa stretched the left breast of his jacket to show his medals with one hand, counted them with the other, and said, "one, two, three."
hahahaha @ Idra in the NBA
Everyone loves brash motherfuckers because we secretly wish we could be them. Babe calling yard shots? Messier saying he's kicking in some Devil dick in game 6?? Nameth being the only worthwhile Jet ever and having the balls to call the game??
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: I don't get the obsession with "BM". It seems like every time a progamer does anything but keep their head down, say the "right" things at all times, and never ever talks trash or says anything cocky in any way, its "BM" and people get pissed off.
Maybe its just because I'm an American, but this makes no sense to me.
At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it. When two football players get in each other's faces and start talking trash, you don't hear the commentators saying "oh, bad manners, this is disgraceful." Its more like, "some heated trash talk going on, but thats how you know they're competitors." In the recent Monday Night Football game between the Ravens and Jets, those guys were at each others' throats, and had been insulting each other and talking trash forever in the run up to the game. Did it "tarnish" the game? No, it made it more exciting and intense. And afterwards, when the Jets lost, all the Ravens fans and players got to rub their nose it, and the same would have happened if the reverse had come to pass.
Michael Jordan was famous for his trash talk. So was Larry Bird. Larry Bird, before the first ever 3 point contest, walked into the locker room, looked at everyone and said, "So which one of you ********s is coming in second?" Then he walked out and not only won, but when he took the contest-winning shot, before it even had gone through the net he'd turned around, stuck a finger in the air for "Number 1", and started swaggering away like a badass. Did people complaing about "BM". No. They said, "Larry Bird is the fucking man."
Well, you might say, thats regular sports, not e-sports. So lets compare it to something a bit closer: chess.
The biggest chess celebrity in the history of America was Bobby Fisher. Now, Bobby was a prodigy and super-genius, which definitely helped. But he was also incredibly cocky, and has no problem with insulting his opponents and telling everyone he was better than them. Did people hold that against him? No. He was super popular, at least until he went bugfuck crazy later in life.
The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea, they may be horrified by someone acting cocky or insulting other people, but they sure don't over here. So, if people want progaming to take off in America, they can't just look at how Koreans do things and copy it exactly, they have to take into consideration what sort of behavior is popular over here.
TBH, The only "BM" that I find disgraceful is when someone loses, and then says that the guy they just lost too sucks. But thats not because of bad manners, it just because it seems like making excuses (looking at you, IdrA and Artosis). If you're gonna talk trash, do it before the game, and back it up.
But if someone, say, before a match in an interview was like, "I'm not really worried, because honestly, I'm waay better than this fool and I'm about to prove it." I would LOVE that. Or if someone at the start of the match, instead of saying glhf said something like "gl...cause you're gonna need it." I'd love that. if they backed it up it'd be badass, and if the opponent beat them, then they could rub their faces in it. The fact is, "BM" makes games more exciting, because they make it personal, and put pride on the line.
American progaming fans need to stop obsessing over how they do things in Korea, and look to American sports for inspiration. Americans don't care about "bad manners". They want drama and a sense that the competitors really want to destroy each other. Players with big personalities who celebrate and talk trash can only do good things for the future of the sport in America. In Korea, Firebathero was controversial, but over here he'd be like Chad Ochocinco, a guy who brings a sense of fun and celebration to the game and who gets himself a ton of fans.
I don't think anyone minds bad mannered if it is cocky and humorous. It's mainly idra style rage quitting and talking trash when you lose that people don't like.
On September 17 2010 08:25 Hawk wrote: You can play mind games in baseball or any sport too. Inquire about the availability of the catcher's mother for that evening and I'm pretty sure he won't be too focused on flashing the right signal.
My homie raevin apparently forgot that it goes on in soccer. Matterazzi has the most brilliant trash talking of all time, taking the best French player out of the game by trolling him so hard. That's hardly the only instance of trash talking in soccer. That shit goes on in all levels in all countries.
Also the most epic portion of soccer BM, falling for no reason when it will look like the opponent did it.
NaDa stretched the left breast of his jacket to show his medals with one hand, counted them with the other, and said, "one, two, three."
That is not BM, perhaps thats why this discussion has gone off rails, nobody has defined what BM is and what isent.
Showing your medals is not a bad mannered thing at all, just like lifting a trophy in sports isent, or being happy. Those are positive moments show that the person cares about winning, they are happy about their success.
Had NaDa gone to his opponnent, whipped out his medals and taunted him that would be bad mannered, it says this:
1. He dosent enjoy that he won them, he enjoys the medals because he can torture others with it 2. He only enjoys torturing other people 3. He plays the game to ruin it for others
That is BM, you dont do that, you dont as a rich man taunt the poor, nothing wrong about being happy about owning a nice car, but taunting people "look here you dirtbag HAHAHA you got nothing man, look at my gold WOOOOT!"
Kobe saying he wants to win more NBA championships than Jordan is not BM, he is talking about himself and his own ambitions. He is not insulting Jordan, just like TLO saying "I want to win the most titles" is not BM, it is a positive way to promote yourself
I never knew americans (in general) had such a way of viewing things, i always thought we were more alike, than us and the Korean or Japanese
In regards to the OP, people who play SC competitively are more often than not nerds who get or demand little respect in real life, hence expect respect in their little online life of escapism. Don't take that away from them BAAAAAAAAAW!
Everyone loves brash motherfuckers because we secretly wish we could be them. Babe calling yard shots? Messier saying he's kicking in some Devil dick in game 6?? Nameth being the only worthwhile Jet ever and having the balls to call the game??
And that is the difference, you are a badass on the internet, look at yo homie with them slangs, gangsta yo.
However i am a badass irl =), someone who was in the airforce, played sports etc
Im not trying to offend you, but it seems like we found the problem
I was bringing that up as a lot of people are miscronstruing what BM actually is. I agree, that isn't BM either, but lots of nerdy nerds around here who can't stand the idea of not being the alpha nerd take that kind of arrogance as BM as it overshadows them and belittles their relative skill, of which they're likely very insecure about along with many other things.
In regards to the OP, people who play SC competitively are more often than not nerds who get or demand little respect in real life, hence expect respect in their little online life of escapism. Don't take that away from them BAAAAAAAAAW!
Its the other way around
If you are weak scrawny nerd who got bullied in school, you desperatly need to feel like a man, so you go online and act it out. That black guy at school took your girl? Pff call someone the N word on live.
In regards to the OP, people who play SC competitively are more often than not nerds who get or demand little respect in real life, hence expect respect in their little online life of escapism. Don't take that away from them BAAAAAAAAAW!
Its the other way around
If you are weak scrawny nerd who got bullied in school, you desperatly need to feel like a man, so you go online and act it out. That black guy at school took your girl? Pff call someone the N word on live.
That makes alot more sense than your little idea
I think it works both ways, with my post that you quoted, your response, as well as my following post.
A ugly, fat or otherwise non desireable girl irl, often does become a cam whore or posts nude pictures on the internet to get the attention from males she never got irl.
The same rule applies here, if you are "gangsta" on the internet, you are most likely a massive ****** irl and you desperatly need to feel big at least on your monitor.
That is most likely where "baller" comes from, you heard it at school and you want to be just as cool as AJ, Chad and David so you go home, log on and "baller yo im here to dominate ya bitchasss!"
Sure the jocks will beat you up tomorrow, but tonight? You are going to reign!!
On September 17 2010 08:38 Raevin wrote: A ugly, fat or otherwise non desireable girl irl, often does become a cam whore or posts nude pictures on the internet to get the attention from males she never got irl.
The same rule applies here, if you are "gangsta" on the internet, you are most likely a massive ****** irl and you desperatly need to feel big at least on your monitor.
Sure the jocks will beat you up tomorrow, but tonight? You are going to reign!!
I respect myself enough to not act like a 16 year old online. There's nothing tough about talking shit or BM -- it's fear, immaturity or insecurity. Be a man..
EPT
