On September 17 2010 03:46 Rotodyne wrote: Probably because when you are trash talking anonymously from behind a computer screen you are a faggot that wouldn't do it in real life.
If Boxer went up to Yellow after the 3bunker rushes and smashed his computer onto the ground and started berating him it would be fine
This is the kind of talk that is BM. Classic "13 year old" (to quote other posters) style.
There's a big difference between trash talking and showing disrespect to your opponent. If you've ever seen an NFL post-game press conference the losing team always says the same things, such as "The other team played well, we weren't able to execute down the stretch...", etc. If there's a bad referee call they may mention it but they would never say "The other team got lucky with that call, we would have totally won if not for that". If they did, the sports media would blast them.
I personally hope competitive gaming doesn't get too much of that "american vibe". For me intense trash talk in sports is just plain childish and stupid. Well, cultural differences I guess.
Ignoring BM ignores the entire history of SC. The game has been built around GM. Just the way it is. We can discuss why it came about this way when so many other games are filled with asshats, but I for one am glad it did, and hope it can continue. It's one of the things that separates SC and its player base from all others.
On September 17 2010 03:39 Pandain wrote: Huh... didn't think people actually idolzied those who trash talked. I find it funny of course, but idolize it? Wish they did it(besides for laughs)? Heck no.
It's because people want to be nice, and want to be treated nice. If you lose, you have no reason to trash talk/bm them. You can be angry, but if you are that angry most likely they cheesed you, and you yourself could've easily won if you had scouted it.
It's because we're a nice community, and this thread makes me sad.
No, being nice for the sake of it is lame. Being nice is not the same as being respectful. It is totally 2 different things. Being nice as a suppressed personality isnt going to get you respect nor will you be interesting. Being nice because YOU WANT to be nice is a different thing.
aah, trash talk in video games, armchair warriors trying to incite emotions in their opponents, pathetic in some sports you could try to justify with publicity value, but to your random opponent in a game youre just plain annoying
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: I'm an asshole who loves this game but still want to rage on people with no consequences so I made this big post about it to try to garner support for me.
On September 17 2010 03:43 out4blood wrote: I think a subtle, but important, difference is in the timing.
In American sports, players talk trash before the game/fight/match, but afterward the losers usually say, "Well they just played better tonight" and the winners tend to be gracious, "They sure were a tough team!"
In Starcraft, what people laud as "trash talking" starts AFTER the game: "Apologize for playing that race" and "You are the worst player I have ever seen." That's just immature and childish. And yea, I think that is bad manners.
If instead, some cocky American player came in and said: "Ima gonna cannon rush your punk ass" and then proceeded to back it up, people might have a different view on what is BM and what is legitimate trash talking.
This is actually a really good point!
At least in the US, being a poor sport after the game is considered very BM. It's is entirely acceptable to talk shit before and even during the game, but if after the game you don't shake hands and be generally GM then you will get a ton of flack.
Yeah imagine if lebron not only didn't shake hands but called dwight howard a faggot and left. hahaha. Actually the post game handshake is pretty much the same thing as in game 'gg.'
I agree with most of what you say. Being cocky and insulting your opponent before the game is fine. It is a mind game that can work to your advantage. However after the game is over, if the player wins, then he was right saying he was better, but if he loses just suck it up don't BM further. To create hype and rivalries, meaningfull rivalries, BM is, well not needed, but very interesting. So BM before gaem, back it up, or suck it up.
I have never thought of stuff like "mule dropping someone's tank" as BM. Something like a player insulting another player's mother while in a game, yeah, that's BM. I'm pretty sure if I heard MJ yell that he was pleasuring himself with another player's mother IN the damn game, then yeah, I'd lose all respect for him too.
I don't know why you want to claim people are "obsessed with BM". I'm a fencer and in fencing there is a very strong level of courteousness and most fencers have good manners. To not act "manner" in fencing is regarded very bad in the community similarly to how some people act about StarCraft.
Nobody cares about fencing--and I fenced in college, so i actually like it. But ask 100 random people on the street to name a single fencer, and the closest anyone is gonna get is "Inigo Montoya".
What sports are popular in America?
Football - tons of trash talk Basketball - tons of trash talk Hockey - tons of trash talk Baseball - not quite as much as the others, but still a lot of trash talking Golf - before his downfall, Tiger Woods was the most popular golfer in America hands down, and he was famous for his "BM" and freaking out/cursing on the pitch Tennis - There's a reason Andre Agassi was more popular than Pete Sampras, even though Sampras was better. Agassi acted emotional, he said things he "shouldn't", he could get cocky, etc. Sampras always said the "right" thing and people called him a robot. MMA - tons of trash talk Boxing - tons of trash talk Nascar - tons of trash talk
Face it, the American mainstream likes great athletes to be a little bit cocky, to show their emotions and, yes, to talk some trash from time to time.
Remember when Usain Bolt slowed down during a sprint to show off how much faster he was than the other runners? People ate that up. Greatness will always make you famous, but greatness, with a dash of cockiness, will make you a legend.
I've never really understood it. But I'm generally pretty nice to most people. I don't go "OMG BM!" everytime someone leaves without a GG or says something in game. People get a little too uptight sometimes
On September 17 2010 03:18 Stegosaur wrote: The difference is that a big American Football player talking trash is a badass, while an SC2 player is sitting behind a computer screen while doing it, playing a videogame, making it awkward instead of badass.
I don't think many things are considered BM, but an awful lot of people hurl unbelievable abuse at people when they lose. Things you'd never say to anyone in real life.
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea,
Sooo your way is the right way? The pure fact is that we are all humans and that being bad mannered is simply inacceptable in sports. Sure the beerdrinker faction with an IQ of below 60 will cheer more for violence (trash talking and the WWF), but do not expect the rest of the world to sink to this standard without putting up a fight.
Sports celebrities are idols for younger generations and thus they have responsibilities towards the next generation. Kids will behave as their idols show them to do, but without fully understanding the whole picture (i.e. that it is only for show). This will result in them using that BM-bullshit in their daily life and that is where it is NOT WANTED. If you dont recognize why this is bad I would suggest some real hard thinking.
I hate this argument so much. How about the parents teach their kids what's acceptable and whats not? If you don't realize personal morals are opinions than you need to do some real hard thinking.
EVERYONE is part of the teaching process and the parents are almost powerless compared to the media. So its not only the parents fault when the kids "go nuts" and start shooting other kids, but moreso the fault of the society which condones / idolizes violence as a way to solve problems.
Idra not GGing will lead to school shootings.
A lot of drops will form a river and a river will make a canyon with time. It is as Edmund Burke said roughly 240 years ago in his "Thoughts on present discontent":
When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.
Bad men in this case are bad mannered players and their raging fans who only watch certain movies, sport, news because of the scandal and drama, bigger explosions, death counts and rivers of blood. So now "we" have to say NO to BM in games from players or the game will eventually deteriorate into a joke like the WWF, where the trash talk is more important than the actual game. IdrA has quite a lot of fans for his BM already ...
Idra bad mannering during games is one small drop which teaches kids that it is OK to be aggressive like that against people who didnt do anything to deserve it. As Silver said [roughly] "I only want to play the game" after Idra was trashtalking to him that all Terrans should apologize for playing the race. Its not the GGs which make Idra BM, its the "other" serious bullshit he does say.
On September 17 2010 03:41 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: Trash talk doesn't have to be hurtful. It can be playful and simply a mind game. Take a look at good ol' Michael in this video.
I think we need more FirebatHeroes!
There's a difference between trash talking in-game and not. Trash talking during a game can be effectively used to psyche out an opponent, since your performance will suffer if you let yourself get distracted in the middle of a game, or if you get angry and lose focus.
But most of the BM in sc2 doesn't come from trash-talking in-game. It comes at the end of the game, almost exclusively from the loser, and it's almost always personal insults. That's not trash-talking, that's BM and being a sore loser. There's a difference.
Imagine if after every game he lost, Michael Jordan ran up to the other team and started screaming "FAGGOT". He would probably receive disciplinary action, or at the very least start a fight. Neither happens in starcraft.
On September 17 2010 03:22 OPSavioR wrote: bad manner = immature
Agreed.
It's okay to have some pre-game banter or to leave without saying gg, i just think it's silly when people are all "nice hacks nerd, you beat me cuz i have a life"
I think you can't compare BM in starcraft to BM in sports. If you are face to face with someone from more or less the same culture, it is easy to judge whether you can expect to engage in some artful trash talking together or not. But when you're online and playing someone who might or might not be from a completely different culture than you, it is a lot harder to know how your banter will be interpreted. Hurling insults at a stranger who doesn't know what that's all about doesn't serve much purpose and just makes the other guy feel miserable: not funny. If you know what kind of person you're playing, it's a different matter. Just my two cents.
EPT
