This is an amazing thread. I really had no idea that professional sports and general attitudes were so different in America. It definitely gives me another context now to think about what American players say when issues like BM or IdrA come up.
Just to repeat what's already been said - pro sports and the sort of behavior that is expected are totally different in (some) other countries. The childish thing - well, it's true, if some pro baseballer said rude things about another player in public, or pretended that they actually hated or wanted to hurt another player, it would be seen as childish and completely wrong for baseball. Baseball players in school teams are held to a very high standard of personal conduct, it's part of the whole baseball culture. The attitude is that adults know how to control their emotions and that children can't.
From the OP I get the message that Americans find the sports more fun to watch if there is the feeling that the players actually hate each other or don't respect the opponent or that they want to be violent "off the field", and that the theatrics of violence, even though it is actually a sport with rules and so on, add to the enjoyment. In Japan anyway, again taking baseball as an example, with competitions like koushien (highschool baseball), the enjoyment is in watching the boys achieve their personal dream through extreme personal effort/self-discipline/overcoming "themselves". It's very different (as far as I can tell from here anyway).
So yes, when it comes to starcraft too, the attitudes are very different. BM just makes the player look like a child. I don't mean that as an insult, it's literally what it looks like. If that is intelligible.
What is it like in European cultures I wonder?
Edit: Understood, what some people said about the OP not reflecting all Americans/the whole of American culture. Fair enough. There does seem to be a cultural gap though, individual tastes aside.
What does Korean culture, which you even acknowledge as being totally and completely different, have to do with American gaming culture, which is what the entire op is about??
To boil it down to it's most simple form, the op said: Americans like their pros skilled and emotionally invested, and they would probably enjoy the game more if there was trash talking
And jesus, all this talk about bigger than the NFL. A majority of Americans don't give a fuck about ANY competitive video games, good god. That whole last sentence just doesn't make any sense.
Perhaps they dont give a fuck because of the bad image of pro video game players who like speak like former KKK members, homophobes and generally BM people? Ever thought of that? Did that idea ever cross your mind that perhaps that is why nobody wants to watch it in america?
You said it was successful two years ago. Your own words (emphasis mine, since reading doesn't seem to be your strong point)
The site was successfull 2 years ago when it FOCUSED ON THE GAME, not the drama within the game, they lost viewers because of that. People came to the site to read the tips of pros, then it gradually turned into a BM site full of 4chan gags and garbage smearing, people left because of that.
...screw it, becuase its not going to sink it, becuase you simply refuse to think logically here. Your opinion is that HuK needs to beat up Day9 at the next MLG event, go to the commentator booth and cuss him out while stomping on him, that is what america wants!
And you have totally failed to realise that you are ROOTING for bad manners in a videogame, yes you, you want this to go on, and to become even bigger.
On September 17 2010 07:40 Raevin wrote: The "Fuck you" is just a example of what the community has been like since it began. Which is why it never took off even 2 years ago when it was semi decent in Burning Crusade.
Which is it?? You can't seem to make up your mind.
On September 17 2010 08:06 Raevin wrote: And you have totally failed to realise that you are ROOTING for bad manners in a videogame, yes you, you want this to go on, and to become even bigger.
At this point, I'm more rooting for you to just learn how to even understand the very basic concept that the OP and myself are even talking about.
You're rambling on about Korea when he's talking about America. And you've somehow concluded that Wow, which is only popular amongst gamers that make up a very small portion of the country, failed at the competitive scene because of BM... without any evidence for that.
Meanwhile, you can just look at the number of people in the country, the number of registered,active accounts and take an educated guess that the reason it didn't success was probably that there really aren't that many people who actually give a shit about WoW when compared with the size of the country, and that not even all of those people would care about competitive WoW.
You ignore that very readily accepted fact when arguing that FPS games should be bigger than NFL because of BM. All people over the age of 30 know what the NFL is. Most would think an FPS is a car model.
But hey, don't let that stand in the way of your logic!
On September 17 2010 08:08 chocopan wrote: What is it like in European cultures I wonder?
Edit: Understood, what some people said about the OP not reflecting all Americans/the whole of American culture. Fair enough. There does seem to be a cultural gap though, individual tastes aside.
I would say we are a bit in-between, but leaning more towards the Korean/Japanese view. But that is just my opinion. Europe has a lot of cultural diversity. ^^
Just skimmed (correct word?) the post. But well, its a difference between some athletes showing off some bad manners and taunting and when a gamer does it. Whats the difference? It takes some balls to do that when facing the person. A computer geek sitting behind his screen spreading bullshit over the net has no balls in it. Its just laughable. I mean, if Micheal Jordan comes to me telling me I'm a sissy i will sure as hell teach him some manners instantly with my fist or some verbal abuse - probably would go for the racial slurs. But when some fukkin kid goes trash talking on the net its just the classical face palm and a good laugh.
You can't compare bad manner in actual sports to e-sports, because NBA/NFL/NHL ect ect are all accepted in our culture here in the west so were more tolerable to trash talking. To be honest if I knew nothing about professional gaming and watched a game of SC2 and saw someone just rage, I would probably think "Lol this kid needs to calm down"
Honestly lets compare BM from actual sports to e-sports. I personally love watching Hockey, and the "BM" in hockey is really aggressive checks that completely level the other person or when 2 players from different teams take there gloves off and start whaling at each other. Now compare that to "BM" in sc2 , first thing that comes to mind for me is the IdrA vs Drewbie game where IdrA said "I want you to apologize for playing that race" Yea it was funny when I first read it, but really didn't spark no rivalry nor did it really enhance my enjoyment of the game.
I dunno, I don't mind BM, but comparing actual athletes to nerds who type angry stuff at each other is just silly. You can't compare the two.
On September 17 2010 07:40 Raevin wrote: The "Fuck you" is just a example of what the community has been like since it began. Which is why it never took off even 2 years ago when it was semi decent in Burning Crusade.
Which is it?? You can't seem to make up your mind.
Hehe, wow i dont even know what exactly it is you are so confused about.
1. The ingame community was always terrible, people flocked to worldofming.com to get a more..."pro" view of things such as tactics and builds becuase they couldnt find that on the offical forums as they were too BM.
2. Worldofming.com decides later that a more "BM" 4chan style is needed becuase people like drama right? This is the direction they should take
3. They realise that they lose viewers becuase of this, and here we are today.
The reason why Elitist Jerks is still popular is that they dont tolerate BM of any kind, you are insta banned there.
There, i am sorry but english is not even my fourth language, that is the best way i can explain it, if some american or englishman reads this and feels this can be pointed out better for this fine gentleman Hawk to understand, be my guest, because it seems impossible for him to comprehend such a simple timeline.
What does Korean culture, which you even acknowledge as being totally and completely different, have to do with American gaming culture, which is what the entire op is about??
To boil it down to it's most simple form, the op said: Americans like their pros skilled and emotionally invested, and they would probably enjoy the game more if there was trash talking
And jesus, all this talk about bigger than the NFL. A majority of Americans don't give a fuck about ANY competitive video games, good god. That whole last sentence just doesn't make any sense.
Perhaps they dont give a fuck because of the bad image of pro video game players who like speak like former KKK members, homophobes and generally BM people? Ever thought of that? Did that idea ever cross your mind that perhaps that is why nobody wants to watch it in america?
You said it was successful two years ago. Your own words (emphasis mine, since reading doesn't seem to be your strong point)
The site was successfull 2 years ago when it FOCUSED ON THE GAME, not the drama within the game, they lost viewers because of that. People came to the site to read the tips of pros, then it gradually turned into a BM site full of 4chan gags and garbage smearing, people left because of that.
...screw it, becuase its not going to sink it, becuase you simply refuse to think logically here. Your opinion is that HuK needs to beat up Day9 at the next MLG event, go to the commentator booth and cuss him out while stomping on him, that is what america wants!
And you have totally failed to realise that you are ROOTING for bad manners in a videogame, yes you, you want this to go on, and to become even bigger.
How about just wanting to let players have their own personality, whatever that may be. It is not the community's right to control it.
Plenty of gamers are nice guys - it's not like TLO would suddenly become an ass just because nobody is telling him not to.
I think you are vastly overestimating the effect BM has on what causes a sport or e-sport to succeed or fail.
The only BM that pisses me off is the offensive GG. That's just obnoxious, especially since you waited until you actually won to trash talk. Don't be a bitch and at least be an asshole before the game too.
On September 17 2010 08:08 chocopan wrote: This is an amazing thread. I really had no idea that professional sports and general attitudes were so different in America. It definitely gives me another context now to think about what American players say when issues like BM or IdrA come up.
Just to repeat what's already been said - pro sports and the sort of behavior that is expected are totally different in (some) other countries. The childish thing - well, it's true, if some pro baseballer said rude things about another player in public, or pretended that they actually hated or wanted to hurt another player, it would be seen as childish and completely wrong for baseball. Baseball players in school teams are held to a very high standard of personal conduct, it's part of the whole baseball culture. The attitude is that adults know how to control their emotions and that children can't.
From the OP I get the message that Americans find the sports more fun to watch if there is the feeling that the players actually hate each other or don't respect the opponent or that they want to be violent "off the field", and that the theatrics of violence, even though it is actually a sport with rules and so on, add to the enjoyment. In Japan anyway, again taking baseball as an example, with competitions like koushien (highschool baseball), the enjoyment is in watching the boys achieve their personal dream through extreme personal effort/self-discipline/overcoming "themselves". It's very different (as far as I can tell from here anyway).
So yes, when it comes to starcraft too, the attitudes are very different. BM just makes the player look like a child. I don't mean that as an insult, it's literally what it looks like. If that is intelligible.
What is it like in European cultures I wonder?
Edit: Understood, what some people said about the OP not reflecting all Americans/the whole of American culture. Fair enough. There does seem to be a cultural gap though, individual tastes aside.
You can't really compare BW to baseball, especially koushien. In BW you have a choice between playing a mechanical game, or a mind game. This is why winning rates usually are so low (besides Flash) and why they don't really use bo1's for qualifiers anymore. Sometimes when you are the better player mechanically you feel really shitty when you lose to someone who didn't outplay you, but relied on you messing up.
On September 17 2010 08:08 chocopan wrote: This is an amazing thread. I really had no idea that professional sports and general attitudes were so different in America. It definitely gives me another context now to think about what American players say when issues like BM or IdrA come up.
Just to repeat what's already been said - pro sports and the sort of behavior that is expected are totally different in (some) other countries. The childish thing - well, it's true, if some pro baseballer said rude things about another player in public, or pretended that they actually hated or wanted to hurt another player, it would be seen as childish and completely wrong for baseball. Baseball players in school teams are held to a very high standard of personal conduct, it's part of the whole baseball culture. The attitude is that adults know how to control their emotions and that children can't.
From the OP I get the message that Americans find the sports more fun to watch if there is the feeling that the players actually hate each other or don't respect the opponent or that they want to be violent "off the field", and that the theatrics of violence, even though it is actually a sport with rules and so on, add to the enjoyment. In Japan anyway, again taking baseball as an example, with competitions like koushien (highschool baseball), the enjoyment is in watching the boys achieve their personal dream through extreme personal effort/self-discipline/overcoming "themselves". It's very different (as far as I can tell from here anyway).
So yes, when it comes to starcraft too, the attitudes are very different. BM just makes the player look like a child. I don't mean that as an insult, it's literally what it looks like. If that is intelligible.
What is it like in European cultures I wonder?
Edit: Understood, what some people said about the OP not reflecting all Americans/the whole of American culture. Fair enough. There does seem to be a cultural gap though, individual tastes aside.
You can't really compare BW to baseball, especially koushien. In BW you have a choice between playing a mechanical game, or a mind game. This is why winning rates usually are so low (besides Flash) and why they don't really use bo1's for qualifiers anymore. Sometimes when you are the better player mechanically you feel really shitty when you lose to someone who didn't outplay you, but relied on you messing up.
The option of mechanical vs mind game is there in Baseball as well. Just not in such extremes ways as in SC. Things like where to pitch is in a large part mind games, unless you are so good mechanically that you don't need them, constantly fouling to mess with the pitcher, bunts and fakes of bunts...
You can play mind games in baseball or any sport too. Inquire about the availability of the catcher's mother for that evening and I'm pretty sure he won't be too focused on flashing the right signal.
My homie raevin apparently forgot that it goes on in soccer. Matterazzi has the most brilliant trash talking of all time, taking the best French player out of the game by trolling him so hard. That's hardly the only instance of trash talking in soccer. That shit goes on in all levels in all countries.
BM in the form of taunting your opponent ingame, through unit actions, is perfectly fine and very entertaining IMO. Like patroldancing, spelling out words with creep tumors, getting random nukes, motherships, calling down mules in your opponent's main, etc. That's all awesome.
But just straight up telling your opponent that they're terrible makes you sound really arrogant, especially if you happen to lose to them the next game or something. If you're going to trashtalk, you should be creative about it, and not use words.
This whole comparison between sports and e-sports is way off. Take the examples you guys are using -- if you saw IdrA playing in the NBA and start saying how fucking bad his opponent was after he was beat, and demanded he apologize for being a black person because it's the easy race, you'd boo him off the court and he'd most likely get shit thrown at him. If you see someone walk to their Starcraft booth with a cocky smirk on their face, stop, look at the crowd, hold up ten fingers and mouth, "ten minutes," you'd fucking love that guy for his confidence. Look at NaDa. When I first started watching pro Brood War, I immediately clung to NaDa, not just because of his play, but because it was a game where, after his win, NaDa stretched the left breast of his jacket to show his medals with one hand, counted them with the other, and said, "one, two, three."
HAHAAHAH that was so epic. It reminds me of Full Metal Jacket for some reason. Yeh you don't need to swear or anything to be "BM". Some people are competitive like that. It seems like people who play SC were the nerds who got bullied too much so now they are ultra-sensitive so they can't deal with the most minor BM.
Did anyone see the most recent State of the Game?
The host guy said he was getting a DSI and I hear Incontrol say the DSI is stupid shit and I was like "yeh it is", but the host guy got all huffy and mad about it. But when the host guy made fun of Incontrol by saying he had no neck (aka fat), Incontrol was like "I have to admit that was really funny" and took it fine. In other words we need more people who can take insults better than get overly defensive and mad.
On September 17 2010 08:25 Cedstick wrote: This whole comparison between sports and e-sports is way off. Take the examples you guys are using -- if you saw IdrA playing in the NBA and start saying how fucking bad his opponent was after he was beat, and demanded he apologize for being a black person because it's the easy race, you'd boo him off the court and he'd most likely get shit thrown at him. If you see someone walk to their Starcraft booth with a cocky smirk on their face, stop, look at the crowd, hold up ten fingers and mouth, "ten minutes," you'd fucking love that guy for his confidence. Look at NaDa. When I first started watching pro Brood War, I immediately clung to NaDa, not just because of his play, but because it was a game where, after his win, NaDa stretched the left breast of his jacket to show his medals with one hand, counted them with the other, and said, "one, two, three."
hahahaha @ Idra in the NBA
Everyone loves brash motherfuckers because we secretly wish we could be them. Babe calling yard shots? Messier saying he's kicking in some Devil dick in game 6?? Nameth being the only worthwhile Jet ever and having the balls to call the game??
On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: I don't get the obsession with "BM". It seems like every time a progamer does anything but keep their head down, say the "right" things at all times, and never ever talks trash or says anything cocky in any way, its "BM" and people get pissed off.
Maybe its just because I'm an American, but this makes no sense to me.
At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it. When two football players get in each other's faces and start talking trash, you don't hear the commentators saying "oh, bad manners, this is disgraceful." Its more like, "some heated trash talk going on, but thats how you know they're competitors." In the recent Monday Night Football game between the Ravens and Jets, those guys were at each others' throats, and had been insulting each other and talking trash forever in the run up to the game. Did it "tarnish" the game? No, it made it more exciting and intense. And afterwards, when the Jets lost, all the Ravens fans and players got to rub their nose it, and the same would have happened if the reverse had come to pass.
Michael Jordan was famous for his trash talk. So was Larry Bird. Larry Bird, before the first ever 3 point contest, walked into the locker room, looked at everyone and said, "So which one of you ********s is coming in second?" Then he walked out and not only won, but when he took the contest-winning shot, before it even had gone through the net he'd turned around, stuck a finger in the air for "Number 1", and started swaggering away like a badass. Did people complaing about "BM". No. They said, "Larry Bird is the fucking man."
Well, you might say, thats regular sports, not e-sports. So lets compare it to something a bit closer: chess.
The biggest chess celebrity in the history of America was Bobby Fisher. Now, Bobby was a prodigy and super-genius, which definitely helped. But he was also incredibly cocky, and has no problem with insulting his opponents and telling everyone he was better than them. Did people hold that against him? No. He was super popular, at least until he went bugfuck crazy later in life.
The fact is, America is not Korea. In Korea, they may be horrified by someone acting cocky or insulting other people, but they sure don't over here. So, if people want progaming to take off in America, they can't just look at how Koreans do things and copy it exactly, they have to take into consideration what sort of behavior is popular over here.
TBH, The only "BM" that I find disgraceful is when someone loses, and then says that the guy they just lost too sucks. But thats not because of bad manners, it just because it seems like making excuses (looking at you, IdrA and Artosis). If you're gonna talk trash, do it before the game, and back it up.
But if someone, say, before a match in an interview was like, "I'm not really worried, because honestly, I'm waay better than this fool and I'm about to prove it." I would LOVE that. Or if someone at the start of the match, instead of saying glhf said something like "gl...cause you're gonna need it." I'd love that. if they backed it up it'd be badass, and if the opponent beat them, then they could rub their faces in it. The fact is, "BM" makes games more exciting, because they make it personal, and put pride on the line.
American progaming fans need to stop obsessing over how they do things in Korea, and look to American sports for inspiration. Americans don't care about "bad manners". They want drama and a sense that the competitors really want to destroy each other. Players with big personalities who celebrate and talk trash can only do good things for the future of the sport in America. In Korea, Firebathero was controversial, but over here he'd be like Chad Ochocinco, a guy who brings a sense of fun and celebration to the game and who gets himself a ton of fans.
I don't think anyone minds bad mannered if it is cocky and humorous. It's mainly idra style rage quitting and talking trash when you lose that people don't like.
On September 17 2010 08:25 Hawk wrote: You can play mind games in baseball or any sport too. Inquire about the availability of the catcher's mother for that evening and I'm pretty sure he won't be too focused on flashing the right signal.
My homie raevin apparently forgot that it goes on in soccer. Matterazzi has the most brilliant trash talking of all time, taking the best French player out of the game by trolling him so hard. That's hardly the only instance of trash talking in soccer. That shit goes on in all levels in all countries.
Also the most epic portion of soccer BM, falling for no reason when it will look like the opponent did it.
NaDa stretched the left breast of his jacket to show his medals with one hand, counted them with the other, and said, "one, two, three."
That is not BM, perhaps thats why this discussion has gone off rails, nobody has defined what BM is and what isent.
Showing your medals is not a bad mannered thing at all, just like lifting a trophy in sports isent, or being happy. Those are positive moments show that the person cares about winning, they are happy about their success.
Had NaDa gone to his opponnent, whipped out his medals and taunted him that would be bad mannered, it says this:
1. He dosent enjoy that he won them, he enjoys the medals because he can torture others with it 2. He only enjoys torturing other people 3. He plays the game to ruin it for others
That is BM, you dont do that, you dont as a rich man taunt the poor, nothing wrong about being happy about owning a nice car, but taunting people "look here you dirtbag HAHAHA you got nothing man, look at my gold WOOOOT!"
Kobe saying he wants to win more NBA championships than Jordan is not BM, he is talking about himself and his own ambitions. He is not insulting Jordan, just like TLO saying "I want to win the most titles" is not BM, it is a positive way to promote yourself
I never knew americans (in general) had such a way of viewing things, i always thought we were more alike, than us and the Korean or Japanese
EPT
