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But if you play vT or vP you're killing intelligent beings :/ How is that not worse than rape? If I know someone whose family has been murdered do I have to apologize for playing Starcraft?
For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all. Oh, come on. They do not have to get over it - but we also shouldn't have to get over it for them. If hearing the word 'rape' is painful for you, maybe you should talk about it rather than try to erase it from your surroundings ('you' being of course generic). That's a deeper problem than some random gamer's speech.
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On August 14 2010 04:37 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:34 Eyeon wrote: My two younger brothers are both severely autistic, and I will never have a conversation with them ever. I got over the term "retard" being offensive pretty quickly. At least rape, as listed by KwarK, has other meanings and connotations other than the traditional definition. In response to a ridiculous lack of ability to communicate between myself and some other players in a ums game the other day, I asked them "what, are you guys autistic?". Out of curiosity, would that offend you? It sure offended one of them. I got a prompt "man that isn't cool". But I thought it was an entirely appropriate way of explaining what I thought, autistic people have trouble communicating right?
Its the Internet. We can't take into account everything we say and do in the context of anonymity. You get over stuff like that pretty quickly(if it bothered you at all to begin with). Changing the way we talk should be the least of our moral concerns in dealing with human interaction online.
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On August 14 2010 04:54 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:54 KlaCkoN wrote:On August 14 2010 04:51 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
This kid is a troll. Please get rid of him. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130403 Yes. My use of the word is correct. I know. I even highlighted the bait. The fact that you in that case lack the ability to comprehend why someone honestly might feel the need to argue the point that the word "rape" should be removed from gaming vernacular says quite a lot about you. The argument quoted might be bad yes, but it's not trolling.
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Why should we even force them to deal with that? Why should we push this in their faces?
Because it's fun for us? Because it's easier? Because we enjoy using the word?
Really?
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This is disappointing - I honestly expected better of TL.
Look, it's intellectually dishonest to pretend that there's no association between the meaning of sexual assault in the word "rape" and the word many gamers like to use. Similarly, I would find it extremely hard to believe that many people using the word "gay" in a derogatory sense online do not know that the word also means homosexual.
Certainly, one may not actually be trying to intentionally invoke "sexual assault" or a "gay=bad" connection when these words are used, but it is clear that there is a connection that does hurt people, and to pretend that it's an entirely new word that coincidentally happens to sound like words used hurtfully is just bullshit.
The argument is whether or not you should inconvenience yourself (like not saying "nigger" even if you'd love to, because you understand how others may feel about the word) versus whether or not you wanna say "fuck it, it's their problem". Essentially, you're defending your own convenience over someone else's feelings - if it really *is* that trivial, why not just stop?
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On August 14 2010 04:55 Slow Motion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:48 neohero9 wrote:On August 14 2010 04:45 Slow Motion wrote:It's an interesting utilitarian. Millions of gamers will be slightly hurt by forcing themselves not to say "rape." A few gamers will be very hurt when they hear the word rape. In the total aggregate, the greatest pleasure comes from people freely using the word as we do now. However, if we want to maximize average pleasure we should censor ourselves. Oh and also I can't believe no one has posted this legendary thread yet. So mean but hilarious at the same time. No. The greatest pleasure comes from changing it. See my post on Page 3. Degree matters. That's another difficulty with utilitarianism. You state that the greatest aggregate pleasure comes from not using the word but you have no way of actual comparison. My feeling is that a large majority of gamers on this site enjoy using the word "rape" to some small degree as opposed to censorship, while those who are either a little offended by it or very hurt (because of personal experiences) are in a very small minority. Of course I have no real proof of this beyond impression, but neither do you for your argument.
The degree of pleasure gained by gamers using the word "rape" is nearly zero; they can substitute another word, with approximately the same meaning, without the vile connotation that rape has. Its actual definition doesn't matter; the immediate thought that comes to mind when someone says the word to another normal person is the issue.
However, the amount of pain dredged up from someone being reminded of this thing that happened to them is incredible. I will never know what it's like to have endured this kind of trauma-- my girlfriend does. I can see the pain she goes thru when a rape scene happens in a movie, or when my brother and his friend make rape jokes. It's something I will never feel, but it is something that is worse than anything I could ever gain by employing this word.
Even if it were a million people tossing this word around, against one lone person on the planet who had been raped, we ought to change it because the degrees are in favor of doing so.
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Gretorp used to say raping bitches a lot, but then changed it up because he wanted to be more sensitive and professional. Now he uses bopping clowns, but it means the same thing.
Also, some of you may not acknowledge this, but guys can rape girls, girls can rape guys, girls can rape girls, and guys can rape guys.
I don't really care if anyone uses the word rape in gaming. Everyone knows the connotation and meaning, and at some people you just have to learn to accept it.
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8748 Posts
I agree with the OP but I'm losing my will to provide good arguments for my opinions because they hardly ever make a difference amongst this crowd. I suppose most gamers have a strong enough combination of feebleness and selfishness that improving their vocabulary for this cause is an insurmountable task. But they feel a bit of guilt so they must repel it with embarrassingly stupid rationalizations and that's the purpose this thread now seems to serve.
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On August 14 2010 04:59 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:54 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 04:54 KlaCkoN wrote:On August 14 2010 04:51 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
This kid is a troll. Please get rid of him. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130403 Yes. My use of the word is correct. I know. I even highlighted the bait. The fact that you in that case lack the ability to comprehend why someone honestly might feel the need to argue the point that the word "rape" should be removed from gaming vernacular says quite a lot about you. The argument quoted might be bad yes, but it's not trolling.
Agreed. It's quite obvious the OP is quite sincere with his point. Whether or not you think his argument sucks is irrelevant of him trolling this thread. To think so is quite ignorant - his intentions are not arguable. He's not asking for censorship or anything, he's pleading for people to be more aware about situations that are hurting trauma victims. He may have used a very poor argument in a subsequent post to try and make a point, but that doesn't make him a troll.
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As encouraging as I am of debate, I don't see this thread making it past hour 2.
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On August 14 2010 05:01 zerglingsfolife wrote: Also, some of you may not acknowledge this, but guys can rape girls, girls can rape guys, girls can rape girls, and guys can rape guys..
This really has nothing to do with anything.
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I think the OP is oversensitive. One of my sister's best friends is a rape victim and I've yelled you just got raped around her while playing guitar hero. She wasn't offended or hurt because she understands that it's an expression.
To be completely honest I think that words have NO meaning, it's the thoughts and ideas behind them. By itself a word is merely a sound or a bunch of letters written down, it's when we give them a meaning that the become offensive and crude. If you're incapable of interpreting a situation where a sound is made then it isn't exactly the fault of the natives is it? Rape is integral to the gamer culture because it's used to exclaim something that was overwhelming in a monosyllabic form. Fuck Shit Ass Piss Cunt Twat and Faggot all fall into this category of words that people get too upset by. If I say faggot it doesn't mean I'm homophobic, look at the meaning behind my yelling. If I look at a homosexual and snarl the word faggot and turn up my nose that's homophobic, BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORD FAGGOT all of my actions tone and body language are what is offensive the word is just there to ensure they remember exactly what I was doing to them.
This is the 21st century and being held up on the dogma of "Bad Words" is to quote penn and teller, Bullshit.
For my final addition to this thread leave you with George Carlin's thoughts on Rape + Show Spoiler + Iceboxman Technologies PocketPC Software Leader George Carlin's Explicit Lyrics CD
1. Offensive Language 2. I Ain't Afraid Of Cancer 3. Some People Are Stupid 4. Rape Can Be Funny 5. Feminist Blowjob 6. Good Ideas 7. Things You Never See 8. Things You Never Hear 9. Things You Don't Wanna Hear 10. Life's Little Moments 11. I Love My Dog 12. Organ Donor Programs 13. Don't Pull The Plug On Me 14. They're Only Words 15. Euphemisms
Thank you, thank you, welcome to our show. Don't you think it's just a little bit strange that Ronald Reagan had an operation on his asshole and George Bush had an operation on his middle finger. Huh? Huh? What are these two men trying to tell us?
Now I'd like to begin tonight with an opening announcement: Because of the FCC, I'm never sure what it is I'm allowed to say. So..so, I now have my own official policy: This is the language you will not be hearing tonight.
You will not hear me say: bottom line, game plan, role model, scenario, or hopefully. I will not kick back, mellow out, or be on a roll. I will not go for it and I will not check it out; I don't even know what it is. And when I leave here I definitely will not boogie. I promise not to refer to anyone as a class act, a beautiful person or a happy camper. I will also not be saying "what a guy." And you will not hear me refer to anyone's lifestyle. If you want to know what a moronic word "lifestyle" is, all you have to do is realize that in a technical sense, Atilla the Hun had an active outdoor lifestyle. I will also not be saying any cute things like "moi." And I will not use the French adverb "tre" to modify any English adjectives. Such as "tre awesome," "tre gnarly," "tre fabou," "tre intense," or "tre out-of-sight." I will not say concept when I mean idea. I will not say impacted when I mean affected. There will be no hands-on state-of-the-art networking. We will not maximize, prioritize, or finalize...and we definitely will not interface. There will also...there will also be no new-age lingo spoken here tonight. No support-group jargon from the human potential movement. For instance, I will not share anything with you. I will not relate to you and you will not identify with me. I will give you no input, and I will expect no feedback. This will not be a learning experience, nor will it be a growth period. There'll be no sharing, no caring, no birthing, no bonding, no parenting, no nurturing. We will not establish a relationship, we will not have any meaningful dialogue and we definitely will not spend any quality time. We will not be supportive of one another, so that we can get in touch with our feelings in order to feel good about ourselves. And if you're one of those people who needs a little space...please...go the fuck outside.
Yeah, about time for me to get a little drink of water. Figure this stuff is safe to drink? Huh? Actually I don't care if it's safe or not, I drink it anyway. You know why? Cause I'm an American and I expect a little cancer in my food and water. That's right, I'm a loyal American and I'm not happy unless I've let government and industry poison me a little bit every day. Let me have a few hundred thousand carcinogens here.
Ahh, a little cancer never hurt anybody. Everybody needs a little cancer I think. It's good for you. Keeps you on you're toes. Besides, I ain't afraid of cancer...I had broccoli for lunch. Broccoli kills cancer. A lot of people don't know that, it's not out yet. It's true. You find out you got some cancer...(click) get yourself a fucking bowl of broccoli. That'll wipe it right out in a day or two. Cauliflower too. Cauliflower kills the really big cancers. The ones you can see through clothing from across the street. Broccoli kills the little ones. The ones that are slowly eating your way from inside...while your goddamn, goofy, half- educated doctor keeps telling you, "your doing fine Jim." In fact bring your doctor a bowl of broccoli. He's probably got cancer too. Probably picked it up from you. They don't know what they're doing, it's all guesswork in a white coat. Here, let me have a few more sips of industrial waste.
Ahh, maybe...maybe I can turn them cancers against one another. That's what you gotta hope for you know, that you get more than one cancer so they eat each other up instead of you. In fact, the way I look at it, the more cancer you got, the healthier you are.
Well I know, some people don't like you to talk about those things. I know that. Some people don't like you to mention certain things. Some people don't want you to say this. Some people don't want you to say that. Some people think if you mention some things they might happen...some people are really fucking stupid!
Did you ever notice that? How many really stupid people you run into during the day? Goddam there's a lot of stupid bastards walking around. Carry a little pad and pencil with you. You'll wind up with thirty or forty names by the end of the day. Look at it this way: Think of how stupid the average person is and then realize that half of them are stupider than that. And it doesn't take you very long to spot one of them does it? Take you about eight seconds. You'll be listening to some guy...you say..."this guy is fucking stupid!" Then...then there are some people, they're not stupid...they're full of shit. Huh? That doesn't take very long to spot either, does it? Take you about the same amount of time. You'll be listening to some guy..and saying, "well, he's fairly intelligent......ahht, he's full of shit!" Then there are some people, they're not stupid, they're not full of shit...they're fucking nuts! Dan Quayle is all three! All three! Stupid, full of shit, and fucking nuts! And where did he get that wife of his? Have you taken a good look at that Marilyn Quayle? Where did he get her, at a Halloween party or something? She looks like Prince Charles for Christ sake! Let me ask you something, does he actually have to fuck that women! Huh? God help him, I wouldn't fuck her with a stolen dick! That's my political humor. People like it when you're topical.
Ohhh, some people don't like you to talk like that. Ohh, some people like to shut you up for saying those things. You know that. Lots of people. Lots of groups in this country want to tell you how to talk. Tell you what you can't talk about. Well, sometimes they'll say, well you can talk about something but you can't joke about it. Say you can't joke about something because it's not funny. Comedians run into that shit all the time. Like rape. They'll say, "you can't joke about rape. Rape's not funny." I say, "fuck you, I think it's hilarious. How do you like that?" I can prove to you that rape is funny. Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd. See, hey why do you think they call him "Porky," eh? I know what you're going to say. "Elmer was asking for it. Elmer was coming on to Porky. Porky couldn't help himself, he got a hard- on, he got horney, he lost control, he went out of his mind." A lot of men talk like that. A lot of men think that way. They think it's the woman's fault. They like to blame the rape on the woman. Say, "she had it coming, she was wearing a short skirt." These guys think women ought to go to prison for being cock teasers. Don't seem fair to me. Don't seem right, but you can joke about it. I believe you can joke about anything. It all depends on how you construct the joke. What the exaggeration is. What the exaggeration is. Because every joke needs one exaggeration. Every joke needs one thing to be way out of proportion. Give you an example. Did you ever see a news story like this in the paper? Every now and then you run into a story, says, "some guy broke into a house, stole a lot of things, and while he was in there, he raped an 81 year old woman." And I'm thinking to myself, "WHY??? What the fuck kind of a social life does this guy have?" I want to say, "why did you do that?" "Well she was coming on to me. We were dancing and I got horney. Hey, she was asking for it, she had on a tight bathrobe." I'll say, "Jesus Christ, be a little fucking selective next time will you?"
Now, speaking of rape, do you know what I wonder? I wonder is there more rape at the equator or the north pole. These are the kind of things I think about when I'm sitting home alone and the power goes out. I wonder is there more rape at the equator or the north pole. I mean per capita, I know the populations are different. Most people think it's the equator, I think it's the north pole. People think it's the equator because it's hot down there, they don't wear a lot of clothing, guys can see women's tits, they get horney and there's a lot of fucking going on. That's exactly why there's less rape at the equator. Because there's a lot of fucking going on. You can tell there's a lot of fucking at the equator, take a look at the population figures. Billions of people live near the equator. How many Eskimos do we have? Thirty? Thirty five? No one's getting laid at the north pole, it's too fucking cold. Guys say to their wives, "hey tonight honey, huh, tonight, huh?" "Are you crazy? The wind chill factor is three hundred below." These guys are deprived. Their horney. Their pent up. Every now and then...p-pmm...they bust out, they got to rape somebody.
Now, the biggest problem an Eskimo rapist has, trying to get wet leather leggings off a woman who is kicking. Did you ever try to get leather pants off of someone who doesn't want to take them off? You would lose your hard-on in the process. Up at the north pole you dick would shrivel up like a stack of dimes. That's another thing I wonder. I wonder, does a rapist have a hard-on when he leaves the house in the morning, or does he develop it during the day while he's walking around looking for somebody. These are the kind of thoughts that kept me out of the really good schools.
Now I've probably got the feminists all pissed off at me because I'm joking about rape. Feminists want to control your language. Feminists want to tell you how to talk. And they're not alone. Their not alone. I'm not picking on the feminists. They got a lot of company in this country. There's a lot of groups, a lot of institutions in this country want to control your language. Tell you what you can say and what you can't say. Government wants to tell you some things you can't say because it's against the law. Well you can't say this because it's against the regulation. Well here's something you can't say because it's a secret. "You can't tell him that, because he's not clear to know that." Government wants to control information and control language, because that's the way you control thought...and basically that's the game they're in. Same with religion. Religion is nothing but mind control. Religion is just trying to control your mind, control your thought, so they're going to tell you some things you shouldn't say because they're sins. And besides telling you some things you shouldn't say, religion's going to suggest to you some things you ought to be saying. Here's something you ought to say first thing when you wake up in the morning. Here's something you ought to say just before you go to sleep at night. Here's something we always say on the third Wednesday in April after the first full moon in spring at four o'clock when the bells ring. Religion is always suggesting things you ought to be saying. Same with political groups of all kinds, political activists, anti- bias groups, special interest groups, are going to suggest the correct political vocabulary. The way you ought to be saying things, and that's where the feminists come in.
As I said, I got nothing against the feminists. In fact, I happen to agree with most of the feminist philosophy I have read. I agree for instance, that for the most part, men are vain, ignorant, greedy, brutal assholes who've just about ruined this planet...who've just...who've just about ruined this planet because they're afraid someone might have a bigger dick out there somewhere. Men are basically insecure about the size of their dicks and so they go to war over it. You don't have to be a political scientist or a history major to see the bigger dick foreign policy theory at work. It goes something like this..."what they have bigger dicks? Bomb them!!!" And of course the bombs and the bullets and the rockets are all shaped like dicks. I don't understand that part of it, but it is part of the equation. So I agree with that abstract. That man... men...males have pushed the technology that just about has this planet in a stranglehold. Mother Earth raped again, guess who..."hey she was asking for it."
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On August 14 2010 04:56 neohero9 wrote:Morals are debatable and definable. You've obviously never spent a lot of time looking into this.
I have to agree with him, there is nothing to debate in regards to morals. Morals are based on emotion rather than rationality. The act of doing something that is 'morally incorrect' only has an impact on the individual's feelings, it has nothing to do with the act actually being right or wrong. Moral codes are inconsistant from person to person.
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If i said rape in front of a rape victim and they broke down in tears, i wouldn't change my vocabulary or ideals or values or w/e the shit u guys are sprouting in here. I would just call a therapist and get her/him(?) some help. Dodeedo
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inb4 kids agree with nony solely because he is nony without actually reading the thread
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On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
Been there done that. Like I said, you aren't going to change the culture. As long as you make one or two people think twice about how they approach it then you've done your job. Your thread was a success. Anything more would be fruitless.
Don't put words in our mouths. I'm sure I'm not the only one who understands it. I'm sure many of us know people who have been actually raped. Don't take it out of context. No pun intended.
You said your spiel; you got the pet peeve off your chest. Everyone has pet peeves. C'est la vie; that is life.
There are many derogatory terms in gaming terminology. Heck, there are many social stigmas associated with gaming. The media and rest of the world won't treat us any different maturity wise. It is what it is.
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On August 14 2010 04:56 neohero9 wrote:Morals are debatable and definable. You've obviously never spent a lot of time looking into this.
I believe you are talking about ethics. Morals are the values embedded in you since day 1. They are almost impossible to change let alone debate. Argue maybe, but a moral debate for the sake of changing the other person's views is pointless and won't work. Ethic on the other hand encompass the gray area and were probably what you were thinking about. They are regularly debated and usually revolve around dilemmas where there is no 100% correct answer.
On the matter of rape, I think we should create a rhyming word to express the gaming version.
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On August 14 2010 05:03 HeavOnEarth wrote: If i said rape in front of a rape victim and they broke down in tears, i wouldn't change my vocabulary or ideals or values or w/e the shit u guys are sprouting in here. I would just call a therapist and get her/him(?) some help. Dodeedo
Tough love.
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On August 14 2010 05:03 Chairman Ray wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:56 neohero9 wrote:On August 14 2010 04:54 Osmoses wrote: Morals are not debatable.
Morals are debatable and definable. You've obviously never spent a lot of time looking into this. I have to agree with him, there is nothing to debate in regards to morals. Morals are based on emotion rather than rationality. The act of doing something that is 'morally incorrect' only has an impact on the individual's feelings, it has nothing to do with the act actually being right or wrong. Moral codes are inconsistant from person to person.
Just because they are inconsistent doesn't mean they can't be defined. Most people lack the proper tools to do so, is all.
If morality didn't exist outside of individuals, murder would not be a crime. Nor would rape.
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On August 14 2010 04:59 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:54 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 04:54 KlaCkoN wrote:On August 14 2010 04:51 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 04:48 SpicyCrab wrote: For all of the people who insist that this is not a big deal, I implore you to go to a real rape victim and explain to them why it's a really cool word to use and trivialize and why they should just get over it. The impetus should be on them to "Get over it" right? I mean it's their fault after all.
I can only express intense disappointment at the complete lack of maturity and understanding from this community and what makes me even more sad is that I know that TL is one of the most mature gaming communities that exists; I can only imagine what the response would be on a normal gaming forum.
This kid is a troll. Please get rid of him. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130403 Yes. My use of the word is correct. I know. I even highlighted the bait. The fact that you in that case lack the ability to comprehend why someone honestly might feel the need to argue the point that the word "rape" should be removed from gaming vernacular says quite a lot about you. The argument quoted might be bad yes, but it's not trolling.
It does say a lot about me, you're right. I like reading and I'm an adult. No one in the entire thread ever said anything about rape being the victim's fault or that its not a big deal. The post that I quoted is either:
a) An idiot posting something stupid. b) A troll, straw-maning and trying to fish for more responses.
I don't have a problem with casters omitting the word rape if they want. That is their choice. The idea that, if they don't, they are being small-minded or hurtful is something I don't agree with. It's just a word being used in the correct context. There are lots of spoken words that will cause someones ears to perk up. Niggardly is a good example. You can't omit words from the english language because they are hurtful to some individuals.
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