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I play as Zerg & just played a platinum level match and got DOMINATED by siege tanks.
I watched the replay I had 128 APM, he had 43 APM.
I was on 4 bases (1 gold), he was on 3.
I had 166/200 supply, he had 154/200 supply.
My army was speedling, roach, and hydras with +1 attack, +2 range, +1 armor.
His army was siege tanks, marines, and a couple vikings with no upgrades.
He sieged outside of my natural on Kulas Ravine (I had 3 spine crawlers right there also).
Tanks range is soooo crazy he killed my entire army while I managed to kill 4 of his marines!!! I couldn't get into attack range because the tanks range is just so large. And yes I pressed attack, not just move! I probably shouldn't have run in to attack, and instead just watch him take out my natural?
The only things I think I could have done differently is use overlords and drop my units onto his tanks (but I didn't have the upgrade) or use neural parasite with infestors (didn't have upgrade either). I also could have gone ultras but I didn't even have a hive.
But would those have made much of a difference?
Can someone please tell me what to do next time because I've lost like every ZvT match? Because it seems very hard for upgraded tier 1-2 units to kill tier 1-2 Terran units.
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I use speedlings early game, then in the mid game I mostly go mutalist and late game either mutaling or mass roach, with a few exceptions ofcourse.
You should always try to avoid being in the tank's range if they are sieged, try to attack him before he sieges and you can pretty much wipe the flood with him.
Watch KOTB QXC vs Idra and you'll get the idea.
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WTB better unit positioning/air units (mutas) sniping the tanks.
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But he had marines and vikings.
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If you can't end it before he gets too many tanks, you have to get brood lords or ultralisks. it is the only way. That or, if he never gets detection, you can stop him with a good roach burrow. The roach burrow will only fool him once if at all, though.
The idea of ZvT is to expand so much and spawn so much larva that you can build an entirely new army instantaneously as soon as the siege tanks rip it to shreds. that way you can pick off one siege tank per army and eventually whittle him down.
I know, it's stupid that a terran can just a-move across the map with siege tanks off of one or two bases,and to beat it the zerg has to have the entire map, tons of larva, and hive tech. but that's the way terran is in starcraft 2.
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On August 03 2010 10:53 leeznon wrote:
But he had marines and vikings.
and a couple vikings
a couple wont do any good versus 15-20 or even more mutas lol
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Don't go head on with siege tanks. Bottom line, you need to wait until they un-siege and then attack head on or do a counter-attack in their main. If you let them siege you are out of luck in most cases especially if they have 200 psi. Try hurassing more with air to keep them from building ONLY siege tanks, that way they need to stay in their base even longer and build marines or thors to protect their ass. Also if they build Thors off of two base then they have less gas for their tanks and such. Just practice and watch pro replays, especially ones from Artosis' replay pack were he does baneling drops with overloards on to tank lines.
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I love the use of infestors vs. mech and especially seige. Get burrow with infestors (energy up is helpful too) and whenever they start to leapfrog with their tanks, as soon as they seige send a few ITs right next to the tanks. Either the splash will kill them from other tanks, or the ITs will kill them. At the very least, it forces them to use a scan.
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You don't. Terran makes them and you lose. In all seriosness though i use roach/ling and try to get a flank on them but even then its really hard. Maybe i drone to much but IDK.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2010 10:54 tfmdjeff wrote:
I know, it's stupid that a terran can just a-move across the map with siege tanks off of one or two bases,and to beat it the zerg has to have the entire map, tons of larva, and hive tech. but that's the way terran is in starcraft 2.
A 1 base advantage was never enough to cut it vs mech, not even in SC1.
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On August 03 2010 10:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 10:54 tfmdjeff wrote:
I know, it's stupid that a terran can just a-move across the map with siege tanks off of one or two bases,and to beat it the zerg has to have the entire map, tons of larva, and hive tech. but that's the way terran is in starcraft 2. A 1 base advantage was never enough to cut it vs mech, not even in SC1.
Tell me when I said one base.
I said the entire map. That generally means about 5 or 6, at least 4 actively mining.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2010 11:01 tfmdjeff wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 10:58 TheYango wrote:On August 03 2010 10:54 tfmdjeff wrote:
I know, it's stupid that a terran can just a-move across the map with siege tanks off of one or two bases,and to beat it the zerg has to have the entire map, tons of larva, and hive tech. but that's the way terran is in starcraft 2. A 1 base advantage was never enough to cut it vs mech, not even in SC1. Tell me when I said one base. I said the entire map. That generally means about 5 or 6, at least 4 actively mining.
Probably should have quoted the OP instead, but yeah, I do agree with that. My point was that needing a fuckton of bases to beat mech TvZ was never something unique to SC2.
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we rollup in a fetal position when the tanks come rolling out...and pray for a disconnection or that he leaves the game.
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On August 03 2010 10:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 10:54 tfmdjeff wrote:
I know, it's stupid that a terran can just a-move across the map with siege tanks off of one or two bases,and to beat it the zerg has to have the entire map, tons of larva, and hive tech. but that's the way terran is in starcraft 2. A 1 base advantage was never enough to cut it vs mech, not even in SC1.
He said he also had gold which was not a factor in sc1. sc1 and sc2 cannot be compared in that same sense because tanks were different in sc1 and there are no goliaths. also consider the pathing, ai, group an entire army in one (or very few hotkeys as compared to sc1), etc. probably more preferred that you move onto tier 3 tech too. a lot of zergs don't seem to like to go to tier 3 tech. well gosu zergs use the entire arsenal but i mean a majority of struggling zergs
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Some problems here:
"I had 166/200 supply, he had 154/200 supply."
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"My army was speedling, roach, and hydras with +1 attack, +2 range, +1 armor.
His army was siege tanks, marines, and a couple vikings with no upgrades."
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"I was on 4 bases (1 gold), he was on 3."
Considering the army mixes you probably had quite a lot less money invested in your army than him, especially with 4 bases to his 3, which likely meant you had more supply invested in drones as well, since terran usually has less workers compensating with MULEs.
So you started right off at an army disadvantage, next there is this:
"He sieged outside of my natural on Kulas Ravine (I had 3 spine crawlers right there also). "
Don't ever let a Terran walk right up to you and siege before you engage him, thats half the game lost right there, you need to scout him coming (overlord, ling, etc) and get your army ready to engage BEFORE he gets to your natural and sieges, once his tanks are sieged up and in position you need to wait for him to unsiege, which might be too late if he is already positioned close enough to your base!
And finally, not really too much of an issue but still, you say:
"And yes I pressed attack, not just move!"
But actually moving up to his army is the best thing to do with the kind of army you had, especially at big supplies, you probably had only half or less of your army attacking at any given time while he had all the tanks and infantry destroying you from afar, taking no friendly siege damage even..the closer you can get to him the better, especially with roaches you should always move up to his army before shooting or you will have half your roaches running around doing nothing most of the time!
Hope this helps 
PS: Oh yeah, burrowed roaches destroy any terran ground if there is no detection around, and are very easy to use, plus not many terrans actively use ravens against Zerg so you can probably have quite a bit of success with those, just remember to scout him coming so you can get yourself burrowed and positioned in time and just unburrow on top of him before he sieges = massacre!
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I use infestors and roaches to beat mech
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-134622.jpg)
Here is what happens when they dont bring a raven when they move out
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from my personal experience muta bane ling is way superior to roach hydra.
Depending on the amount of anti air in his army more muta or more banelings.
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On August 03 2010 10:54 tfmdjeff wrote:
If you can't end it before he gets too many tanks, you have to get brood lords or ultralisks. it is the only way. That or, if he never gets detection, you can stop him with a good roach burrow. The roach burrow will only fool him once if at all, though.
The idea of ZvT is to expand so much and spawn so much larva that you can build an entirely new army instantaneously as soon as the siege tanks rip it to shreds. that way you can pick off one siege tank per army and eventually whittle him down.
I know, it's stupid that a terran can just a-move across the map with siege tanks off of one or two bases,and to beat it the zerg has to have the entire map, tons of larva, and hive tech. but that's the way terran is in starcraft 2.
+10000 on that last part. just the way it is right now ^^
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Your unit composition didn't seem to be optimal, that is true.
Another interesting & effective tactic would be Baneling drops onto the tanks. Requires both overlord upgrades but these two are anyway always a good thing to have if you are going to late game. Also your best bet is to strike when the terran army in a bad position/moving/unable to defend his base/whatever. You have to abuse the limited mobility of siege tanks. Plus remember that you can re-build a zerg army in no time. Just don't let people convince you that Terran is OP vs. Zerg because this is not the case. That myth has been disproved many times.
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On August 03 2010 11:06 Woah wrote:
Don't ever let a Terran walk right up to you and siege before you engage him, thats half the game lost right there, you need to scout him coming (overlord, ling, etc) and get your army ready to engage BEFORE he gets to your natural and sieges, once his tanks are sieged up and in position you need to wait for him to unsiege, which might be too late if he is already positioned close enough to your base!
Yeah my army was out of position because I was destroying rocks to his base when he sieged up outside of mine. That's why he had time to siege up.
Forgot to mention that.
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On August 03 2010 11:17 AlBundy wrote:
Your unit composition didn't seem to be optimal, that is true.
Another interesting & effective tactic would be Baneling drops onto the tanks. Requires both overlord upgrades but these two are anyway always a good thing to have if you are going to late game. Also your best bet is to strike when the terran army in a bad position/moving/unable to defend his base/whatever. You have to abuse the limited mobility of siege tanks. Plus remember that you can re-build a zerg army in no time. Just don't let people convince you that Terran is OP vs. Zerg because this is not the case. That myth has been disproved many times.
good point on the drop.
Also borrowed baneling trails work well too
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My opinion is to scout scout scout. If he is going mech, try to tech to ultras or broodlords.
While doing so mess with his econ, use worms to send banlings into his resource lines. Use burrow roaches to get jump on his tanks(unless he has a raven) Get infestors. Hydra+ roaches+zerglins are useless against a pure mech build simply due to range, Unless you flank him with your lings and push with your hydra roach that could suffice.
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When you begin to get your first 4th base, you should be teching to Ultralisks. If you want faster Ultralisks, you can do it 3rd base once it is saturated. Also, try not to just attack head on. Set up flanks and do drops/nydus to attempt to spread his forces. With the drop and mobility, you need to just stop Terran from expanding and try to starve him if you cannot land a killing blow.
Also, you might want to veto Kulas Ravine in ladder. That map is one of the worse maps for Zerg.
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you really dont counter siege tanks. best army is ling infestor ultas. scout alot for 5000 rax reapers, hellion harass, and banshee harasses. basically you need 3-3 ultras to run in first then send in lings and fg clusters, infested terran on the tanks(its what i do dunno if thats right or wrong) and np the thors. abuse immobility and do split hits. Honestly this matchup is so broken right now... you really need to outplay or outclass your T opponent. Oh and dont go mutas they suck.
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Kulas Ravine's narrow chokes even in the middle of the map means the map is ideal for seige tanks. But jus on theorycrafting for general zvt, the idea is that you have to be more creative and throw curveballs at him. Make sure you take advantage of your larva's ability to change your entire army composition in a matter of few seconds, meaning have access to a good ground army and air army.
Honestly, you only have to kill his main army once and you've won the game, so anything like harassing to keep his army in his base, flanks, constantly changing army composition to decrease the efficiency of his units are all things to consider when fighting terran mech.
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lots of roaches
you don't even need burrowed roaches. on a more general note, you should go mutalisk -> map control -> expand -> make tons of roaches when he can push out. 30 roaches or so destroy this tank marine composition.
if it goes late enough ultras dominate tanks
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Ultralisks. It takes some serious effort getting to hive, though. Broodlords work too, but they're a bit riskier. Mutalisks work if you kill off his marines/thors.
Roaches do very well against tanks, but tanks scale well better with numbers than roaches do. So, after a certain number of tanks, roaches do pretty poorly.
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So, in 3 easy steps, by order of importance:
1) Scout! Always have vision of his base exit so you know when its coming and what is coming, otherwise nothing will work because you'll react too late and lose the positioning war.
2) Army composition: you should have either mass roach (better against pure mech, you don't instalose if you need to attack a sieged up position) or muta/baneling/ling (best combo against thorless armies, since banelings destroy marines and mutas eat up vikings, nothing else can shoot up). NOTE: if you let him siege up with this comp you will possibly lose regardless because tanks absolutely demolish banelings before they can even get close.
3) Flank him as best as possible, before he sieges up and do the proper micro for the situation: moving up close before shooting with roaches or targetting the banelings at the marines if you went that way, don't let them all blow up uselessly on the armored units!
Practice will probably help more at this point
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On August 03 2010 10:54 tfmdjeff wrote:
I know, it's stupid that a terran can just a-move across the map with siege tanks off of one or two bases,and to beat it the zerg has to have the entire map, tons of larva, and hive tech. but that's the way terran is in starcraft 2.
Not really just an "A-move" action. If they siege or unsiege at the wrong time a Zerg thats maxed can roll them in some cases.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2010 12:09 ckw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 10:54 tfmdjeff wrote:
I know, it's stupid that a terran can just a-move across the map with siege tanks off of one or two bases,and to beat it the zerg has to have the entire map, tons of larva, and hive tech. but that's the way terran is in starcraft 2. Not really just an "A-move" action. If they siege or unsiege at the wrong time a Zerg thats maxed can roll them in some cases.
Although the lack of overkill does make it less punishing to be sieged in a poor position than in SC1.
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Every Zerg knows how Terran are so OP right? The only way you can possibly counter siege tanks is to neural parasite them and use the terrans own weapon against him. What a lot of the pro zerg players do is neural parasite an scv so that they can make their own set of imba Terran units. The only way to beat siege tanks as zerg is to get your own siege tanks...
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On August 03 2010 12:28 cmos543 wrote:
Every Zerg knows how Terran are so OP right? The only way you can possibly counter siege tanks is to neural parasite them and use the terrans own weapon against him. What a lot of the pro zerg players do is neural parasite an scv so that they can make their own set of imba Terran units. The only way to beat siege tanks as zerg is to get your own siege tanks...
i lol'd
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I hear you man, I played Zerg in the beta, got to high platinum, and had like a 30% winrate with Terran. I won most of my ZvZ ad n ZvP, but all my ZvT games took atleast 40 minutes, and I would have to have the whole map.
You need to have like double the bases, you need to establish map control (make him feel like if he moves out, hes done) and you need to spawn so much larva. I've seen my population go from 200 to 100 is a second. You want to upgrade alot, roaches should take in most of the hits, and you need to always scout what unit he makes, because a simple hard counter can lose you to the game. Then you push him when he's like in the middle of the map, or on your creep, with so many speedlings, and roach/muta/hydra/ultra/brood lord, whatever you have, and pray for victory, and if you lose, you have to make another army in like a second, cuz of your pile of larva.
*side notes*
I remember playing blistering, and the Terran was still sitting on 2 bases, while I had 4, including the gold. I lost because I went corruptor/brood lord, and I lost to mass vikings/thors.
and GUY I remember, there's this little spot on Steppes of War, right beside the natural, but not at the ramp, its like right beside the natural, the terrain sieges there, and I can't kill it, because to get a surround I have to go all around the ramp, and I just get dominated. its on lower ground.
and hence, I switched to terrain and I know love how easy it is.
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firstly you need to be able to assess his tank numbers/placement, if you have enough to overwhelm then then do it.
if you don't have enough to overwhelm the tanks then you need ultralisks, mutalisks or infestors.
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On August 03 2010 12:30 reza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 12:28 cmos543 wrote:
Every Zerg knows how Terran are so OP right? The only way you can possibly counter siege tanks is to neural parasite them and use the terrans own weapon against him. What a lot of the pro zerg players do is neural parasite an scv so that they can make their own set of imba Terran units. The only way to beat siege tanks as zerg is to get your own siege tanks... i lol'd
I cried.
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On August 03 2010 10:54 tfmdjeff wrote:
If you can't end it before he gets too many tanks, you have to get brood lords or ultralisks. it is the only way. That or, if he never gets detection, you can stop him with a good roach burrow. The roach burrow will only fool him once if at all, though.
The idea of ZvT is to expand so much and spawn so much larva that you can build an entirely new army instantaneously as soon as the siege tanks rip it to shreds. that way you can pick off one siege tank per army and eventually whittle him down.
I know, it's stupid that a terran can just a-move across the map with siege tanks off of one or two bases,and to beat it the zerg has to have the entire map, tons of larva, and hive tech. but that's the way terran is in starcraft 2.
AKA Overpowered and babied by Blizzard because Wings of Liberty is a Terran game. I mean the game isn't nearly as far off balance as some people make it out to be. But really this cannot possibly be fair can it? I mean Protoss versus Terran is the same way, Terran has to out-produce, out-micro, and out-position the Protoss in every way and be up bases and Protoss can still win. Game shouldn't be Protoss > Terran > Zerg at top-level play. Keep in mind that is where I'm talking about is top-level play, not random ladder games.
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On August 03 2010 10:48 leeznon wrote:
I watched the replay I had 128 APM, he had 43 APM.
I was on 4 bases (1 gold), he was on 3.
I had 166/200 supply, he had 154/200 supply.
My army was speedling, roach, and hydras with +1 attack, +2 range, +1 armor.
His army was siege tanks, marines, and a couple vikings with no upgrades.
He sieged outside of my natural on Kulas Ravine (I had 3 spine crawlers right there also).
Tanks range is soooo crazy he killed my entire army while I managed to kill 4 of his marines!!! I couldn't get into attack range because the tanks range is just so large. And yes I pressed attack, not just move! I probably shouldn't have run in to attack, and instead just watch him take out my natural?
a few things you could've done:
1. make banelings. Send in speedlings/roaches to draw tank fire, then send in banelings right behind to kill marines
2. no hydras. Hydras are bad against tanks, bad against thors, bad against marines, about even with marauders. IMO hydras are only good vs T to counter banshee/viking harass, which means you only need a few. They CAN beat MMM if you can fungal growth the ball, because they outrange marines, but terrans nowadays rarely go only MMM, they almost always add in thors/siege tanks, which destroy hydras.
3. do NOT sit back and let him walk up within siege range of your natural uncontested  this probably lost the game more than anything. attacking right into a tank line of 5+ tanks is utter suicide.
I'd say the best unit comp against marine/tank/viking is mostly roach, with banelings proportional to amount of marines, and speedlings proportional to amount of tanks. roaches counter marines, and with tunneling claws they can burrow & pop up right next to tanks as well. Meanwhile speedlings can run up right next to marines and tanks, causing his tanks to kill his own army with splash damage. Send in/unburrow roaches to draw tank fire, then send in speedlings to surround and draw splash damage, then send in banelings to kill marines.
edit: this should be in the strategy section, and you really need to provide the replay so we can see any mistakes you might have made.
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I tend to go banelings to handle early bio balls -> hydras to handle harrass and mid game bio/thor pushes. Contain the terran to hopefully two bases, while getting 3 and then 4 as zerg. Tech to ultras asap. Once you have them on the field tech to broodlords. Once you have some broodlords you can just 1a with ling/ultra/corrupter/broodlord into his expansion. the ultras and zerglings will take tank damage, while the broodlords/ultras clean the tanks up. Stop making hydras late game. That's what corruptors are for.
Nydus doesnt work against the turtle mentality because they build stuff on all of their perimeters.
People usually stick to the idea you go only one t3 tech route. I find the two complement each other against the tanks.
Also get armor upgrades and spread creep as much as you can. Screw roaches. they just eat up supply.
After you lose your 200/200, he should be crippled and your macro should be enough to remake zerglings and ultras. Keep the pressure on.
orrrrr just make sure he has a weak wall. Mass zerglings. Make 6 banelings. GG
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I feel like you were heavily outmacroed if you didn't have NP, hive tech, and the supplies were so near even. Also sounds like you didn't even have a flank set up.
If he's moving to your nat it's better to attack before he can siege up and so you can flank. No Thors also mean Mutas > his army.
On August 03 2010 11:17 AlBundy wrote:
Your unit composition didn't seem to be optimal, that is true.
Another interesting & effective tactic would be Baneling drops onto the tanks. Requires both overlord upgrades but these two are anyway always a good thing to have if you are going to late game. Also your best bet is to strike when the terran army in a bad position/moving/unable to defend his base/whatever. You have to abuse the limited mobility of siege tanks. Plus remember that you can re-build a zerg army in no time. Just don't let people convince you that Terran is OP vs. Zerg because this is not the case. That myth has been disproved many times.
You are overflowing with just massive, disproportionate amounts of ignorance.
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United States22883 Posts
This kind of thread should go in the Strategy forum, but you'll need to include a replay and follow the rest of the guidelines. Hope you figure it out.
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EPT
