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What is the hardest match-up in your opinion? For me the top three were TvT, ZvT, and TvP, but I'm leaning more towards TvT just because of how ridiculous the early game is. There is just too many options to choose from, making it really hard to know what's coming. Tank Viking is a great unit composition, but it is impossible to open with, and takes incredibly long to transition into due to the high gas cost of tanks. There are so many situations in the early game from marine hellion pushes, thor rushes, cloak banshee rushes, proxy reapers, 6 rax bunker, etc. No other matchup has to deal with all the stupid shit that Terrans can do to each other.
I would say ZvT is a close second, but "mech" isn't really that scary in my opinion. It takes forever to build up an army that can push and zerg can just power like crazy and either overrun or counter attack the T quite easily, then of course replenish and reinforce much faster. Though on maps like Kulas and Steps, I don't see how zergs can beat good terran players. Right now TvZ is my best matchup by far(probably around a 70% winrate), but the higher level zergs I have played just demolished me.
I wouldn't say ZvZ was hard, just retarded and very punishing. I only play off race on customs so the opponents suck ass, but one baneling can really screw you if you don't focus for a second D:
Poll: Hardest Matchup in SC2ZvT (54) 41% TvT (23) 17% PvT (22) 17% TvP (14) 11% ZvZ (6) 5% PvP (5) 4% ZvP (4) 3% TvZ (3) 2% PvZ (1) 1% 132 total votes Your vote: Hardest Matchup in SC2 (Vote): ZvZ
(Vote): ZvT
(Vote): ZvP
(Vote): TvT
(Vote): TvZ
(Vote): TvP
(Vote): PvZ
(Vote): PvT
(Vote): PvP
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is the poll for the race specified first to be the hardest or the hardest for both sides?
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On August 01 2010 14:21 Zeromadcowz wrote:
is the poll for the race specified first to be the hardest or the hardest for both sides?
9 poll options.. so of course it is race specified. It would be impossible for one matchup to be hardest for both sides unless it was a mirror.
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i find pvp to be the hardest because of the enormous amounts of cheese involved. pvt follows after that for me
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I've been randoming for this past week and so far I would have to go with TvP. It's probably just me not knowing the MU that well though. But on the other hand, I played zerg in the beta and still have a pretty hard time with ZvT. Ultimately going with TvP though.
Edit: But of course I'm an idiot and hit PvT. :/
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On August 01 2010 14:25 Vessel wrote:
i find pvp to be the hardest because of the enormous amounts of cheese involved. pvt follows after that for me
Cheese such as proxy gates and cannon rushes are quite easy to deal with in my opinion, but if you mean stuff like 4 warp gate all-ins, fast dts, then yeah I can see it being annoying since you can't really scout in PvP until an observer comes out(which means doom vs a 4 gate).
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There are so many situations in the early game from marine hellion pushes, thor rushes, cloak banshee rushes, proxy reapers, 6 rax bunker, etc. No other matchup has to deal with all the stupid shit that Terrans can do to each other.
Oh yeah? Here's what Terrans can open TvZ:
6 rax reaper
8 rax reaper bunker rush
Mass reaper
Reactor hellion
Hellion drop
Igniter hellion
1 Banshee harass
Cloak banshee
Viking
Thor drop
Tank drop
Marine/tank attack
Marine/hellion attack
Marine/marauder attack
Marauder/hellion attack
This doesn't include any proxies.
All of these can transition into an expo or a 1 base all-in attack.
Here's what Zerg can do ZvT:
6 pool
Roach all-in
Baneling bust
1 base muta
Fast expand
...
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ZvT hardest to win followed by PvT
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On August 01 2010 14:28 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +There are so many situations in the early game from marine hellion pushes, thor rushes, cloak banshee rushes, proxy reapers, 6 rax bunker, etc. No other matchup has to deal with all the stupid shit that Terrans can do to each other. Oh yeah? Here's what Terrans can open TvZ: 6 rax reaper - all in build, destroyed by any reasonably fast queen 8 rax reaper bunker rush - 1 base zerg D: a blind hatch first is pretty screwd though Mass reaper - I'll give you this one ever since trying it after watching Lz do it, but overlords over your cliffs lets you know which angle they are coming in from, speedling surround as soon as they jump up.. Reactor hellion - Defend and move on, watch Idra vs QxC Hellion drop - Overlords around your airspace, takes like 5-6 seconds to drop all 4 hellions Igniter hellion - dunno what this means, getting this upgrade takes a bit of time and requires a tech lab, it is good in mid-late game if zerg doesn't defend drone line expos 1 Banshee harass - two queens pop b4 1 banshee, and this is easy to scout coming Cloak banshee - lair timing?, overseer always comes before cloak finishes, if not soon after Viking - its just a unit Thor drop - speedling Tank drop - good on LT, Kulas, what else? mutas should come out in time, otherwise either break your rocks or have drop researched Marine/tank attack - pretty gay to defend I'll admit Marine/hellion attack - speedlings Marine/marauder attack - T didn't tech then and is pretty all in, spine crawler Marauder/hellion attack - never seen this b4 This doesn't include any proxies. All of these can transition into an expo or a 1 base all-in attack. Here's what Zerg can do ZvT: 6 pool Roach all-in Baneling bust 1 base muta Fast expand ...
Zergs have overlords, scouting and knowing when shit is coming is pretty easy.
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On August 01 2010 14:38 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2010 14:28 Saracen wrote:There are so many situations in the early game from marine hellion pushes, thor rushes, cloak banshee rushes, proxy reapers, 6 rax bunker, etc. No other matchup has to deal with all the stupid shit that Terrans can do to each other. Oh yeah? Here's what Terrans can open TvZ: 6 rax reaper - all in build, destroyed by any reasonably fast queen 8 rax reaper bunker rush - 1 base zerg D: a blind hatch first is pretty screwd though Mass reaper - I'll give you this one ever since trying it after watching Lz do it, but overlords over your cliffs lets you know which angle they are coming in from, speedling surround as soon as they jump up.. Reactor hellion - Defend and move on, watch Idra vs QxC Hellion drop - Overlords around your airspace, takes like 5-6 seconds to drop all 4 hellions Igniter hellion - dunno what this means, getting this upgrade takes a bit of time and requires a tech lab, it is good in mid-late game if zerg doesn't defend drone line expos 1 Banshee harass - two queens pop b4 1 banshee, and this is easy to scout coming Cloak banshee - lair timing?, overseer always comes before cloak finishes, if not soon after Viking - its just a unit Thor drop - speedling Tank drop - good on LT, Kulas, what else? Marine/tank attack - pretty gay to defend I'll admit Marine/hellion attack - speedlings Marine/marauder attack - T didn't tech then and is pretty all in, spine crawler Marauder/hellion attack - never seen this b4 This doesn't include any proxies. All of these can transition into an expo or a 1 base all-in attack. Here's what Zerg can do ZvT: 6 pool Roach all-in Baneling bust 1 base muta Fast expand ... Zergs have dead overlords if scouting vs marines, scouting and knowing when shit is coming is pretty hard when you wall 99.99999% of the time.
here fixed it for you!
As for me the top 3 hardest matches are
TvZ obiviously cause zerg s just don't have any answers to tanks, and have to suffer all the bull crap terrans are pulling on them.
ZvZ cause it's always an all in baneling bust and you must be crazy to try to do otherwise since it's just soo easy for the other zerg to switch muta and own your face. Than you're missing 1 baneling and boom 20 zerglin just died!! it's a pretty stupid matchup if you want to know.
TvT would be the 3rd simply cause it results in a tank vs tank and 1 scan while your tank are unsieged and GG  but all in all it's technicality!
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On August 01 2010 14:42 Leeoku wrote:
imo zvt and zvp
You can't be serious about ZvP -_- Zerg has pretty much full map control throughout the game, has nice timings to power, and the only real threat are the walking deathstars and templar. But this matchup does depend a lot on how well you can defend the two gate, and how you respond vs the all-in attack that comes after, or the quick expo.
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On August 01 2010 14:31 kNyTTyM wrote:
ZvT hardest to win followed by PvT
I agree with this. I find PvT ridiculous early on. It's like the gateway units are so flimsy compared to maurader marine. I find if T goes like maurader FE, then the only viable option is to all in bust with some immortals, if that doesnt work i dunno how u can possibly win O_O!
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Hmm, the top 3 hardest matchups: ZvT, TvT, PvT.
Terran, Terran, Terran. Funny, that.
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I find PvT to be the hardest until you get a robo with a decent amount of sentry zealot, then it becomes easier then PvZ.
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On August 01 2010 14:38 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2010 14:28 Saracen wrote:There are so many situations in the early game from marine hellion pushes, thor rushes, cloak banshee rushes, proxy reapers, 6 rax bunker, etc. No other matchup has to deal with all the stupid shit that Terrans can do to each other. Oh yeah? Here's what Terrans can open TvZ: 6 rax reaper - all in build, destroyed by any reasonably fast queen 8 rax reaper bunker rush - 1 base zerg D: a blind hatch first is pretty screwd though Mass reaper - I'll give you this one ever since trying it after watching Lz do it, but overlords over your cliffs lets you know which angle they are coming in from, speedling surround as soon as they jump up.. Reactor hellion - Defend and move on, watch Idra vs QxC Hellion drop - Overlords around your airspace, takes like 5-6 seconds to drop all 4 hellions Igniter hellion - dunno what this means, getting this upgrade takes a bit of time and requires a tech lab, it is good in mid-late game if zerg doesn't defend drone line expos 1 Banshee harass - two queens pop b4 1 banshee, and this is easy to scout coming Cloak banshee - lair timing?, overseer always comes before cloak finishes, if not soon after Viking - its just a unit Thor drop - speedling Tank drop - good on LT, Kulas, what else? mutas should come out in time, otherwise either break your rocks or have drop researched Marine/tank attack - pretty gay to defend I'll admit Marine/hellion attack - speedlings Marine/marauder attack - T didn't tech then and is pretty all in, spine crawler Marauder/hellion attack - never seen this b4 This doesn't include any proxies. All of these can transition into an expo or a 1 base all-in attack. Here's what Zerg can do ZvT: 6 pool Roach all-in Baneling bust 1 base muta Fast expand ... Zergs have overlords, scouting and knowing when shit is coming is pretty easy.
Not. Just look at Idra games for example, it's very hard to scout with an OL against any decent player who knows the overlord pathings, so usually you need to rely on Zergling scouting (running up the ramp to see whats up.) Or till you get speedoverlords / overseers.
The problem also isn't just the openings, it's the damn 340931 follow ups that Terran can do. While Zerg can't do shit, and the things that Zerg do are easier to scout, and easier to defend. Hell if you see no expansion you know instantly that somethings up. And if you don't, throw a scan and you will see everything. Oh and Zerg aggressive openings usually have no real follow up, if they fail, you lose, at the same time they are way easier to block. It's just how the match up works currently. P / T attacks, depending how well Zerg defends, it will usually decide the game.
And knowing when shit is coming is true, but you mainly know it when they attack, meaning if you made a bit too many drones it's GG, especially since you can't get sunkens up fast enough.
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On August 01 2010 14:49 Flipperbw wrote:
Hmm, the top 3 hardest matchups: ZvT, TvT, PvT.
Terran, Terran, Terran. Funny, that.
This is just a result of Terran having more viable openings, as has already been mentioned.
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On August 01 2010 14:31 kNyTTyM wrote:
ZvT hardest to win followed by PvT
No doubt in anyone's mind that Z has it the hardest. LoL like mentioned T can do anything he wants and it will work.
PvT on the other hand, I really think there are harder matchups. T really only has 1/1/1 that is so threatening. I really think this match up will get better as time goes on and people start accepting that Protoss just needs to expand a bit faster, and void ray is not answer to everything.
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I would agree that zvt is the hardest(I'm speaking from the z perspective because the 'z' is before the 't' [please take note of this distinction those new the forums]), but im also curious how you would define 'hardest'.
How can a mirror match be harder than when you have to deal with racial imbalances?
I think it ultimately comes down to personal preference; are you confident that your mechanics and game sense are strong enough to overcome someone doing the same actions as you...no? Then you likely find mirror match-ups more difficult.
Where as you dont have rely as strongly on being the out and out better player when fighting vs another race, because you can rely on racial imbalance(its not a bad thing; everyone does it).
Just remember that there have always been, and will always be, racial imbalance threads. Nerds of all shapes and sizes raging and crying about how a certain unit needs to be nerfed or buffed. The saving grace is that we can always look forward to inc barging in and turning the entire thread into a rofl-fest.
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United States47024 Posts
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It took 80+ votes to get 1 vote for TvZ/PvZ. T_T poor Zergies.
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On August 01 2010 14:56 cive wrote:No doubt in anyone's mind that Z has it the hardest. LoL like mentioned T can do anything he wants and it will work. PvT on the other hand, I really think there are harder matchups. T really only has 1/1/1 that is so threatening. I really think this match up will get better as time goes on and people start accepting that Protoss just needs to expand a bit faster, and void ray is not answer to everything.
PvT wouldn't be that bad if it wasn't for the fact that the race with the best ground fighting units also gets a potentially game-winning harass option with each tech structure they add (see: reaper rushes, hellion runbys, banshee attacks, MMM drops, or even Raven autoturret/pdd harassment)
It's sort of ridiculous that the best harassment options all go to the race that also has ground dominance and major defensive-advantage options available, in addition to a macro mechanic that makes staying on 2 base more viable than it would be for other races.
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On August 01 2010 14:42 Leeoku wrote:
imo zvt and zvp
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LOL I like how the hardest matchups are all vT and the easiest matchups are all vZ. As much as I hate to admit it, I have to agree with that - I hate going up against Terran as any race.
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I absolutely hate PvP. I find that until Blizz does something about fixing that all-in 4 warp gate zealot cheese the match up will suffer. Even if it doesn't come to that its just a colossus battle. You could say it was similar in Brood War with reavers, but reavers and more fun than colossi. On a side note, I find PvT very difficult because you have to rax units are so much more powerful than gateway units until you get High Templar out (I don't like Colossi because they are beat by vikings and are hard to reinforce).
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On August 01 2010 14:56 cive wrote:No doubt in anyone's mind that Z has it the hardest. LoL like mentioned T can do anything he wants and it will work. PvT on the other hand, I really think there are harder matchups. T really only has 1/1/1 that is so threatening. I really think this match up will get better as time goes on and people start accepting that Protoss just needs to expand a bit faster, and void ray is not answer to everything.
I've never found 1/1/1 that threatening. It's the bio balls + medivacs that are freaking crazy strong and the cloaked guardians.
ZvP isn't that bad once you've discovered ultralisks.
I can't say that zvz is hard it's just stupid. Throwing banelings at each other doesn't take much skill. You just have to learn how to click individual zerglings to sacrifice and not let banes in your mineral line.
On August 01 2010 15:09 thezergk wrote:
I absolutely hate PvP. I find that until Blizz does something about fixing that all-in 4 warp gate zealot cheese the match up will suffer. Even if it doesn't come to that its just a colossus battle. You could say it was similar in Brood War with reavers, but reavers and more fun than colossi. On a side note, I find PvT very difficult because you have to rax units are so much more powerful than gateway units until you get High Templar out (I don't like Colossi because they are beat by vikings and are hard to reinforce).
These are exactly the reasons I quit protoss. All-in or colossus spam in PvP. In brood war you could transition to high templar since reavers were slow and shuttle could be efficiently sniped using storm. Also DT openers were actually a viable opening since high templar storms was down the same tech path (for discussion on that read through TT1's thread).
PvT versus bio is more frustrating to me then zvt mech.
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wow, i'm the first out of 118 to choose PvZ.
one base zergs i can deal with.
but i can't ever beat an expanding zerg.
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On August 01 2010 15:06 Saracen wrote:
It took 80+ votes to get 1 vote for TvZ/PvZ. T_T poor Zergies.
oh and I think it was me... but... was not favoring Zerg... just taught that it was the hardest for Zerg... =X so scratch this vote
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PvT for sure man. EMP destroys protoss as well as the rax units which are much better than gateway units when massed.
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United States22883 Posts
These "What do you think?" threads do not work on TL. Especially this one where everyone will start bitching about imba. Plus there's already a thread similar to this if you search.
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EPT
