Its pretty clear to me now that some blizzard employees actually read these forums so this is basically a thread dedicated to them.
Its pretty obvious that someone read Lalush's thread about the BroodWar "moving-shot". Unfortunately whoever read that post completely missunderstood what we mean by "moving-shot".
I'll try and be brief.
1. Never did we mean to say that we wanted units that could attack targets while moving (after being issued only a simple "MOVE" command).
2. The units in BroodWar that can perform "move-shot" do so as a result of being issued both the attack command and the move command very quickly. This is possible because they have short fireing animations.
As JulyZerg Demonstrates:
Please note that he is using BOTH move and attack very quickly in order to have the mutas move immediately after their fire animation thus they basically never stop and are able to perform what we mean by "moving-shot".
Units that can do this ONLY when "micro-ed propperly: Vulture, Goliath (to a lesser degree), Wraith, Mutalisk, Probes, Drones, (maybe guardians and battlecruisers i really dont know), Archon, Corsair, Scout (the scout is the best possible example of this).
What i mean by "microed properly" is being issued very fast move and attack commands so that they don't completely stop to do their fireing animation !
3. Units in BroodWar that have different attacks when being issued the "Patrol" command and not the Attack command. Patrol is basically used instead of attack while also still having the "move command" constantly being sent to the unit.
Vultures will now demonstrate the awesomeness of "Patrol Micro":
The Vulture is capable of a different kind of micro depending on weather Attack + move or Patrol + Move is issued. The turning animation for the Vulture decreaseas GREATLY when Patrol is being used. Attack + Move is used when chasing after an enemy unit while Patrol + Move is being used when being chansed by an enemy unit !!!
And now the wonder of the Valkyries: - again by using Patrol + Move instead of Attack + Move the Valkyries are able to behave completely differently. If "Attack" is used Valks are unable to move for the duration of their fireing animation.
Now, PLEASE understand that this kind of micro (yes in BroodWar it is a result of an imperfect game-engine, but just look how much fun it can be to do this...) needs to be difficult to achieve, or if not "difficult", both Attack and Move commands MUST be used in order to be demanding on a players multitasking (the ability to manage both micro and macro and other things).
This is what i've got so far, i hope whoever @ blizzard has been reading these forums now understands what we mean when we say moving-shot.
Basically its not that a unit should be able to attack even though its being issued a move command, but that through quick alternation of Move and Attack commands the unit keeps moving during its fireing animation.
Also, it would be WONDERFULL if as shown above there was a slight difference between the way a unit behaves / microes when being issued the Patrol command rather than the Attack command. My suggestion is that you make a couple of units (say 1 or 2 for each race) have a much shorter turning animation when Patrol + Move is being used instead of Attack + Move, very quickly !!!
How is this in anyway different from how the Phoenix functions now? Try spamming both back and forth in the same manner and look what happens. The exact same thing. The only reason that video that has been posted shows just moves happening is because the AI is stupidly following the Phoenix endless, and so they remain within the attack range of the Phoenix. If they were being controlled by a player then the type of micro you are describing would have been required.
On May 07 2010 07:02 SichuanPanda wrote: How is this in anyway different from how the Phoenix functions now? Try spamming both back and forth in the same manner and look what happens. The exact same thing. The only reason that video that has been posted shows just moves happening is because the AI is stupidly following the Phoenix endless, and so they remain within the attack range of the Phoenix. If they were being controlled by a player then the type of micro you are describing would have been required.
On May 07 2010 07:02 SichuanPanda wrote: How is this in anyway different from how the Phoenix functions now? Try spamming both back and forth in the same manner and look what happens. The exact same thing. The only reason that video that has been posted shows just moves happening is because the AI is stupidly following the Phoenix endless, and so they remain within the attack range of the Phoenix. If they were being controlled by a player then the type of micro you are describing would have been required.
What you're talking about is adding a poorly coded game engine back into the game because its not the same as Brood War. Have you even tried to micro any of the units in SC2 the same way without first dismissing at as 'not being possible'? The behavior of the mutalisk in the video you showed are the EXACT same as phoenix now. They move while attacking. The only difference is that the phoenix can not attack ground. If you really like BW that much more go play it.
On May 07 2010 07:08 SichuanPanda wrote: What you're talking about is adding a poorly coded game engine back into the game because its not the same as Brood War. Have you even tried to micro any of the units in SC2 the same way without first dismissing at as 'not being possible'? The behavior of the mutalisk in the video you showed are the EXACT same as phoenix now. They move while attacking. The only difference is that the phoenix can not attack ground. If you really like BW that much more go play it.
lalush explained the problem clear enough in his wonderful post and your post with bolds exclams and stuff actually looks more lame and noobish, just like an ordinary crygirl thread from b.net forums that everyone ignores.
On May 07 2010 07:02 SichuanPanda wrote: How is this in anyway different from how the Phoenix functions now? Try spamming both back and forth in the same manner and look what happens. The exact same thing. The only reason that video that has been posted shows just moves happening is because the AI is stupidly following the Phoenix endless, and so they remain within the attack range of the Phoenix. If they were being controlled by a player then the type of micro you are describing would have been required.
obviously not a sc1 player
On May 07 2010 07:08 SichuanPanda wrote: What you're talking about is adding a poorly coded game engine back into the game because its not the same as Brood War. Have you even tried to micro any of the units in SC2 the same way without first dismissing at as 'not being possible'? The behavior of the mutalisk in the video you showed are the EXACT same as phoenix now. They move while attacking. The only difference is that the phoenix can not attack ground. If you really like BW that much more go play it.
if u want the game to succeed as an e-sport it has to be a sport to play it. and if u like watching ur units battle while u eat chips and drink coke then play wow
On May 07 2010 07:08 SichuanPanda wrote: What you're talking about is adding a poorly coded game engine back into the game because its not the same as Brood War. Have you even tried to micro any of the units in SC2 the same way without first dismissing at as 'not being possible'? The behavior of the mutalisk in the video you showed are the EXACT same as phoenix now. They move while attacking. The only difference is that the phoenix can not attack ground. If you really like BW that much more go play it.
wow you are completely clueless
I'm clueless huh? It is the exact same behavior, do it before you try to troll me. Go play a game and make Phoenix and cycle back and forth between move and attack like July is doing in the video in OP and tell me they don't behave the way ATA mutas in BW did. Oh wait you can't tell me that because they do.
On May 07 2010 07:02 SichuanPanda wrote: How is this in anyway different from how the Phoenix functions now? Try spamming both back and forth in the same manner and look what happens. The exact same thing. The only reason that video that has been posted shows just moves happening is because the AI is stupidly following the Phoenix endless, and so they remain within the attack range of the Phoenix. If they were being controlled by a player then the type of micro you are describing would have been required.
obviously not a sc1 player
Obviously an elitist who prefers broken game mechanics.
Also, it would be WONDERFULL if as shown above there was a slight difference between the way a unit behaves / microes when being issued the Patrol command rather than the Attack command.
If you had all of your knowledge of SC1 sucked out of your brain, would you ever expect the attacks caused by Attack and the attacks caused by Patrol to behave differently? Of course not. They're attacks; they should all behave the same. That's what a reasonable player would assume to be the case.
On May 07 2010 07:08 SichuanPanda wrote: What you're talking about is adding a poorly coded game engine back into the game because its not the same as Brood War. Have you even tried to micro any of the units in SC2 the same way without first dismissing at as 'not being possible'? The behavior of the mutalisk in the video you showed are the EXACT same as phoenix now. They move while attacking. The only difference is that the phoenix can not attack ground. If you really like BW that much more go play it.
wow you are completely clueless
I'm clueless huh? It is the exact same behavior, do it before you try to troll me. Go play a game and make Phoenix and cycle back and forth between move and attack like July is doing in the video in OP and tell me they don't behave the way ATA mutas in BW did. Oh wait you can't tell me that because they do.
You're a moron. Mutalisks in SC1 do not automatically fire on scourge which are on their tail.
On May 07 2010 07:02 SichuanPanda wrote: How is this in anyway different from how the Phoenix functions now? Try spamming both back and forth in the same manner and look what happens. The exact same thing. The only reason that video that has been posted shows just moves happening is because the AI is stupidly following the Phoenix endless, and so they remain within the attack range of the Phoenix. If they were being controlled by a player then the type of micro you are describing would have been required.
obviously not a sc1 player
Obviously an elitist who prefers broken game mechanics.
we dont want them to implent broken mechanics and we also dont want units to attack when we click move. we want to make our own decisions weather we dont to do that. lalush had whole TL go with him blizzard listened but they misunderstood
i welcome new mechanics but i dont welcome units making decisions without my orders aka attack when i click move. next thing we know they add this to spellcasters back units when dmged and focus fire
its a thin line and i think blizzard has overstepped the boundaries
On May 07 2010 06:53 decemvre wrote: 2. The units in BroodWar that can perform "move-shot" do so as a result of being issued both the attack command and the move command very quickly. This is possible because they have short fireing animations.
It's not "short firing animations" or "animation cancel" or anything like that, people. It doesn't have anything to do with animation at all, in fact. Mutalisks, Vultures, etc. didn't have "attack animation" at all, they just shoot projectile. Archons had very long attack animation, but you still could micro them this way and it's animation was never canceled while doing so. The reason for this behavior is the order of attacking and decelerating. Blizzard have got this order wrong in sc2.
Maybe they did understand and they wanted to implement what they did implement. God StarCraft 2 IS NOT StarCraft Brood War. Two completely different games with different micro. I want micro in SC2, but not the exact same as SC1. Give me something new please god.
On May 07 2010 07:02 SichuanPanda wrote: How is this in anyway different from how the Phoenix functions now? Try spamming both back and forth in the same manner and look what happens. The exact same thing. The only reason that video that has been posted shows just moves happening is because the AI is stupidly following the Phoenix endless, and so they remain within the attack range of the Phoenix. If they were being controlled by a player then the type of micro you are describing would have been required.
obviously not a sc1 player
Obviously an elitist who prefers broken game mechanics.
we dont want them to implent broken mechanics and we also dont want units to attack when we click move. we want to make our own decisions weather we dont to do that. lalush had whole TL go with him blizzard listened but they misunderstood
First of all, all of TL means ALL of TL, not "all of the SC1 players at TL" >.>
Second, if they just removed A-Move from the Phoenix, and created a passive ability called "Auto-Attack," would you be fine with it?
On May 07 2010 07:10 SichuanPanda wrote: I'm clueless huh? It is the exact same behavior, do it before you try to troll me. Go play a game and make Phoenix and cycle back and forth between move and attack like July is doing in the video in OP and tell me they don't behave the way ATA mutas in BW did. Oh wait you can't tell me that because they do.
all you have to do is click on the ground. you dont have to press attack or attack&move or any kind of combination. phoenix will automatically attack when you move.
This is what I wrote in the other thread. I do think this solution of Blizzard's is worth trying out though. Might proove to like it.
On May 07 2010 06:46 LaLuSh wrote: The problem I think Blizzard are having, is that their engine is designed to have air units turn around their axis and aim while moving (in whatever direction they were previously heading).
It could perhaps be fixed if they forced the phoenix to actually face and accelerate towards its enemy before being able to fire (as you had to do in BW). And simply make them more responsive in the sense that they turn around faster with retained speed after having fired.
I don't think it's fair to say Blizzard haven't caught on to the fact that moving shot requires animation cancelling. I mean look at how fluidly the phoenix is moving right now. That wouldn't be possible without shortening its animation. They already cancelled what they could cancel of the firing animation. I think the problem lies with how the game is coded. They fixed "moving shot" and cancelled much of the animation, but because the game allows units to turn around their axis it doesn't look or feel right.
In brood war, even if you did patrol micro, your units had to turn and accelerate towards your enemy for the split second it required them to fire. However, they were more responsive when it came to maneuverability and turning around immediately with retained speed.
I don't know though. Shouldn't be too hard on this change without at least trying it out for a while.
*Edit: I should say I don't actually know if you can change the direction of the phoenix while it's gliding now. In that case it might still be an animation issue.
On May 07 2010 07:08 SichuanPanda wrote: What you're talking about is adding a poorly coded game engine back into the game because its not the same as Brood War. Have you even tried to micro any of the units in SC2 the same way without first dismissing at as 'not being possible'? The behavior of the mutalisk in the video you showed are the EXACT same as phoenix now. They move while attacking. The only difference is that the phoenix can not attack ground. If you really like BW that much more go play it.
wow you are completely clueless
I'm clueless huh? It is the exact same behavior, do it before you try to troll me. Go play a game and make Phoenix and cycle back and forth between move and attack like July is doing in the video in OP and tell me they don't behave the way ATA mutas in BW did. Oh wait you can't tell me that because they do.
You're a moron. Mutalisks in SC1 do not automatically fire on scourge which are on their tail.
On May 07 2010 07:08 SichuanPanda wrote: What you're talking about is adding a poorly coded game engine back into the game because its not the same as Brood War. Have you even tried to micro any of the units in SC2 the same way without first dismissing at as 'not being possible'? The behavior of the mutalisk in the video you showed are the EXACT same as phoenix now. They move while attacking. The only difference is that the phoenix can not attack ground. If you really like BW that much more go play it.
wow you are completely clueless
I'm clueless huh? It is the exact same behavior, do it before you try to troll me. Go play a game and make Phoenix and cycle back and forth between move and attack like July is doing in the video in OP and tell me they don't behave the way ATA mutas in BW did. Oh wait you can't tell me that because they do.
You're a moron. Mutalisks in SC1 do not automatically fire on scourge which are on their tail.
That's the only difference, this doesn't require as many input commands.
It works the same way though in the game itself, the Pheonix can turn, fire, and never decelerate. However, it doesn't require any sort of special control, and that's all anyone is mad about.
Well, that and you don't have to shorten the time turned around for the actual shot. Although that sorta fits in to the whole fewer commands thing.
On May 07 2010 07:08 SichuanPanda wrote: What you're talking about is adding a poorly coded game engine back into the game because its not the same as Brood War. Have you even tried to micro any of the units in SC2 the same way without first dismissing at as 'not being possible'? The behavior of the mutalisk in the video you showed are the EXACT same as phoenix now. They move while attacking. The only difference is that the phoenix can not attack ground. If you really like BW that much more go play it.
wow you are completely clueless
I'm clueless huh? It is the exact same behavior, do it before you try to troll me. Go play a game and make Phoenix and cycle back and forth between move and attack like July is doing in the video in OP and tell me they don't behave the way ATA mutas in BW did. Oh wait you can't tell me that because they do.
You're a moron. Mutalisks in SC1 do not automatically fire on scourge which are on their tail.
On May 07 2010 07:08 SichuanPanda wrote: What you're talking about is adding a poorly coded game engine back into the game because its not the same as Brood War. Have you even tried to micro any of the units in SC2 the same way without first dismissing at as 'not being possible'? The behavior of the mutalisk in the video you showed are the EXACT same as phoenix now. They move while attacking. The only difference is that the phoenix can not attack ground. If you really like BW that much more go play it.
wow you are completely clueless
I'm clueless huh? It is the exact same behavior, do it before you try to troll me. Go play a game and make Phoenix and cycle back and forth between move and attack like July is doing in the video in OP and tell me they don't behave the way ATA mutas in BW did. Oh wait you can't tell me that because they do.
You're a moron. Mutalisks in SC1 do not automatically fire on scourge which are on their tail.
That's the only difference, this doesn't require as many input commands.
It works the same way though in the game itself, the Pheonix can turn, fire, and never decelerate. However, it doesn't require any sort of special control, and that's all anyone is mad about.
I understand its not precisely the same way of implementing the behavior, but as pointed out here it is effectively the same in-game. The other thing is that in all the videos we've seen posted so far is that the units attacking the Phoenix are blindly following them. Since when have you not seen a unit sitting still attack the first unit to enter its attack range? Wait that always happens. If you are facing a Zerg who micros there mutas OUT OF YOUR PHOENIX RANGE, you will have to use attack move to hit them, essentially the same behavior people have been asking for. SC2 is not going to be a BW clone, if people want all these mechanics that were part of an out-dated engine, there's a 10+ year old game available for you.
On May 07 2010 07:02 SichuanPanda wrote: How is this in anyway different from how the Phoenix functions now? Try spamming both back and forth in the same manner and look what happens. The exact same thing. The only reason that video that has been posted shows just moves happening is because the AI is stupidly following the Phoenix endless, and so they remain within the attack range of the Phoenix. If they were being controlled by a player then the type of micro you are describing would have been required.
obviously not a sc1 player
Obviously an elitist who prefers broken game mechanics.
I often call TL members elitists as well. But changes like this one are simply ridiculous. It requires NO skill. Any player who plays this game more than 5 hours a week can perform this sort of 'micro'.
"Broken game mechanics" meant that you need to focus your attention on a unit to get the maximum effectiveness out of it (eg. muta/wraith micro or vulture micro).
Auto-mining was partially substituted with macro mechanics (they require you to get back to your base and split your attention) and MBS isn't THAT big of a deal, since you still need to spam hotkeys to build units, making units from building with different addons requires you to tab with terran, for example. But this sort of microtakes away the feel of SC1, which is what people are aiming at
EPT
