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Couple thoughts on all this.
I'll start with the most important. You can always know what the Terran player is doing by sacrificing overlords at key moments in the game. You just have to know when. This is a skill you have to learn or you will face many unnecessary losses. There's no excuse for not doing it. Every race has to pay a price to scout a walled off Terran player, including Terrans.
Secondly, Planetary Fortress can only attack ground. It's a significant investment, really. If the player has to get a Planetary Fortress, he's giving up a significant economic bonus. It's like if you played with one less queen or if the Protoss built a nexus without Chrono Boost. I think it's a fair tradeoff, and should realistically only deter small attacks. If his entire army is there and you still lose, one could argue that it's not the Fortress that's securing the deal.
Banshees, also, require an absolutely astronomical investment in time and resources, especially if the player goes double Starport early on. If you don't scout it, you have no right to win.
Marauders might be an issue. I think intelligent players can deal with them, but they are definitely strong with stim, I can't argue that. The problem is compounded by the fact that Marines take so much longer to get into production, both because of the increased production time and the length on reactors, so Terrans favor Marauders even more with the patch.
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On April 04 2010 16:34 xnub wrote:
corruptor to shut down fortress as many have said and immortals for toss both Rape the fortress and make it worthless.
But ya anyways Z>T just learn your counters and stuff and evolve like terrans have been. Scouting is super easy to overlords or the Very underestimation Clone scout really good : P.
If anything terran have a harder time scouting you guys fucking overlords spawning creep and some corner and tossing down a hydra den, spire or banlings nest man thats allways a surprize omg thats sooo gay lol. Cost use the 300 min to do the scan to it cost you guys nothing.
I don't understand the sentiment that scouting is free for a Zerg player. The Changeling is arguably free after we tech to lair and upgrade some Overlords, but other scouting attempts usually require a Zergling sacrifice (cheap, but doesn't work against a wall and costs larvae) or an Overlord sacrifice, which sometimes doesn't work, costs minerals, and costs supply. Imagine if you scouted by catapulting supply depots across the map (which would be AWESOME) and we scouted by using an ability called "Queen Remote Viewing" or something, and then said your scouting was free.
This is by no means to say they are equivalent by cost or effectiveness (I don't want to derail this thread) but saying that scouting is free isn't true. Nothing is free.
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My problem is even when I do go lings, they evaporate before really reaching the MMM ball or the tanks. Maybe I should be dropping a third or fourth hatch for more larva when I'm going lings, I don't know. I just know that in my experience, even when I switch to mostly lings, tanks + MMM seem to evaporate my lings before doing what I want them to do.
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On April 04 2010 16:41 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 16:31 QibingZero wrote:
To be honest, I disagree with most of what you're saying, and especially the PF part. Building a PF is a huge sink to the Terran's economy. You're trading resources, SCV build time, MULEs, scan, and the ability to lift the CC off... all for a stationary defense vs ground only. Terran basically gives up even more map control than they already give up, just to secure a non-OC expansion. There's a reason you only see PF used sparingly.
I initially thought PF was noobville to even consider building one since you do not get scan or mules, but I built some in my past few games and they can be more economical than a mule because you basically get to keep that expo so you end up with a solid econ whereas an OC is easily attackable.
if you do it on your first expand it is noob vile need 2 CC first then go PF. But ya immortals or 1 corruptor and your pf is gone lol. Like said above
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On April 04 2010 16:42 w_Ender_w wrote:
I don't understand the sentiment that scouting is free for a Zerg player. The Changeling is arguably free after we tech to lair and upgrade some Overlords, but other scouting attempts usually require a Zergling sacrifice (cheap, but doesn't work against a wall and costs larvae) or an Overlord sacrifice, which sometimes doesn't work, costs minerals, and costs supply. Imagine if you scouted by catapulting supply depots across the map (which would be AWESOME) and we scouted by using an ability called "Queen Remote Viewing" or something, and then said your scouting was free.
Terran pay ~250 minerals to scan in the same situation, and there's no guarantee the scan location will show them everything. Protoss spend, what, 100/100 on an Observer that could potentially be shot down before it sees anything as well. Why should the Zerg get a free ride when it comes to scouting?
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On April 04 2010 16:42 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 16:34 xnub wrote:
corruptor to shut down fortress as many have said and immortals for toss both Rape the fortress and make it worthless.
But ya anyways Z>T just learn your counters and stuff and evolve like terrans have been. Scouting is super easy to overlords or the Very underestimation Clone scout really good : P.
If anything terran have a harder time scouting you guys fucking overlords spawning creep and some corner and tossing down a hydra den, spire or banlings nest man thats allways a surprize omg thats sooo gay lol. Cost use the 300 min to do the scan to it cost you guys nothing. I don't understand the sentiment that scouting is free for a Zerg player. The Changeling is arguably free after we tech to lair and upgrade some Overlords, but other scouting attempts usually require a Zergling sacrifice (cheap, but doesn't work against a wall and costs larvae) or an Overlord sacrifice, which sometimes doesn't work, costs minerals, and costs supply. Imagine if you scouted by catapulting supply depots across the map (which would be AWESOME) and we scouted by using an ability called "Queen Remote Viewing" or something, and then said your scouting was free. This is by no means to say they are equivalent by cost or effectiveness (I don't want to derail this thread) but saying that scouting is free isn't true. Nothing is free.
Overlords Free Scouting till mid game need them for supply nothing to take them down unless you leave them right in the enemys base or are very stupid with them. Mid game you get overseer for any stealth anyways so you get the cloans for mid game very fast unit easy to shit down a cloan in base.
Late game is the only point where you could say it become a issue cause lot air is up lots turrents cannons and lots units roming the map. Probly lose a few overlords even if you are crafull but most times worth it cause you are really mostly looking for expos at this point in game,
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On April 04 2010 16:49 RatherGood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 16:42 w_Ender_w wrote:
I don't understand the sentiment that scouting is free for a Zerg player. The Changeling is arguably free after we tech to lair and upgrade some Overlords, but other scouting attempts usually require a Zergling sacrifice (cheap, but doesn't work against a wall and costs larvae) or an Overlord sacrifice, which sometimes doesn't work, costs minerals, and costs supply. Imagine if you scouted by catapulting supply depots across the map (which would be AWESOME) and we scouted by using an ability called "Queen Remote Viewing" or something, and then said your scouting was free.
Terran pay ~250 minerals to scan in the same situation, and there's no guarantee the scan location will show them everything. Protoss spend, what, 100/100 on an Observer that could potentially be shot down before it sees anything as well. Why should the Zerg get a free ride when it comes to scouting?
its not a free ride it is a little gayer late game with overlord hunts. But ya early and mid game hehe
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PF is easily counterable with Corruptor... I don't think it's my biggest issue...
I just think that it's really tough to fight stimmed, upgraded mass marauders with medivacs no what matter what unit composition you have, they destroy everything...
and banshees deal just way too much damage and kill Queens too easily...
ZvT is easier than ZvP in my opinion tho...
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On April 04 2010 16:57 zazen wrote:
PF is easily counterable with Corruptor... I don't think it's my biggest issue...
I just think that it's really tough to fight stimmed, upgraded mass marauders with medivacs no what matter what unit composition you have, they destroy everything...
and banshees deal just way too much damage and kill Queens too easily...
ZvT is easier than ZvP in my opinion tho...
I agree on the Marauder thing. It's like Hydralisks are missing +armored damage. They should be the counter to Marauder, but still fail due to Stim and slow walking speed.
As far as ZvT compared to ZvP... ZvP became a LOT more manageable when I learned to counter the Immortal timing push. Once I got over that hump it became a really fun match up. Same way ZvZ became fun when Speedlings became viable as an alternative to 1 base mass Roach vs. 1 base mass Roach :D
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The short answer is: no. ZvT is not imbalanced.
The long answer is: we don't know. People really suck at SC2. Nothing is more ridiculous or more humorous than when someone says something like "Korean pros make 2-3 queens and group them together to stop banshees." Granted, these people are not only behind the curve, they're probably on a different curve altogether, but aside from them, everyone still really sucks. But the fact is, there are no Korean pros. SC2 has only been available for a very short time and is a long way from being anywhere near optimized. Until game play is a lot more stable we can't really comment on balance because the rate of change will be so high from day to day.
I'm #1 in Platinum as Zerg (or at least I was last night. I'm probably not any more). And even though I think I'm a lot better at understanding RTS-style games than nearly everyone, I still surprise myself from day to day saying, "wow, I didn't see this match up anything like this." So I think that there is a lot to learn and that there are gonna be a lot of subtle and major shifts that eventually transform SC2 so that the current understanding of racial balance will look misguided. It's another question altogether whether we should judge balance from the standpoint of current game knowledge or not. I'm sure you could make a strong case that we should use current game knowledge to decide racial balance, and then you might have a case for the possibility of ZvT being imbalanced, but even if we used that rubric I think that it would have to come with the caveat that our knowledge is very likely to be wrong
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I agree on the Marauder thing. It's like Hydralisks are missing +armored damage. They should be the counter to Marauder, but still fail due to Stim and slow walking speed.
But Hydralisks do counter Marauders. They take only base damage from them, and they do damage much faster than Marauders.
The problem is that Marauders can be paired with Hellions, which with their upgrade and mass numbers destroy Hydralisks by the dozen. Roach/Hydralisk can stop this, but Marauder/Hellion is a lot less gas intensive. Given equal econ, the Zerg player can't deal with it. Not directly, at any rate.
It's another question altogether whether we should judge balance from the standpoint of current game knowledge or not. I'm sure you could make a strong case that we should use current game knowledge to decide racial balance, and then you might have a case for the possibility of ZvT being imbalanced, but even if we used that rubric I think that it would have to come with the caveat that our knowledge is very likely to be wrong
What else is there besides current game knowledge to base understanding about game balance on? Nothing.
It is entirely possible that any apparent imbalances currently seen are due to a lack of strategy. With a game as complex as StarCraft, it is very difficult to prove that there isn't a strategy that beats this. The question is how long would you, as Blizzard, be willing to wait to see if a strategy is eventually found. And therefore, how much evidence do you need for an imbalance before acting?
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On April 04 2010 17:02 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 16:57 zazen wrote:
PF is easily counterable with Corruptor... I don't think it's my biggest issue...
I just think that it's really tough to fight stimmed, upgraded mass marauders with medivacs no what matter what unit composition you have, they destroy everything...
and banshees deal just way too much damage and kill Queens too easily...
ZvT is easier than ZvP in my opinion tho... I agree on the Marauder thing. It's like Hydralisks are missing +armored damage. They should be the counter to Marauder, but still fail due to Stim and slow walking speed. As far as ZvT compared to ZvP... ZvP became a LOT more manageable when I learned to counter the Immortal timing push. Once I got over that hump it became a really fun match up. Same way ZvZ became fun when Speedlings became viable as an alternative to 1 base mass Roach vs. 1 base mass Roach :D
Hydras allready destroy rines when rines are the counter /shrug hydras would own all then
On April 04 2010 17:10 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +I agree on the Marauder thing. It's like Hydralisks are missing +armored damage. They should be the counter to Marauder, but still fail due to Stim and slow walking speed. But Hydralisks do counter Marauders. They take only base damage from them, and they do damage much faster than Marauders. The problem is that Marauders can be paired with Hellions, which with their upgrade and mass numbers destroy Hydralisks by the dozen. Roach/Hydralisk can stop this, but Marauder/Hellion is a lot less gas intensive. Given equal econ, the Zerg player can't deal with it. Not directly, at any rate.
Hellions are over rated vs hydras they are cool and all but they only destroy them when they are no microed right and get caught in balls spread them out make them a line focus the hellions as they try and pick at your edges don't give them splash and they can be easy.
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On April 04 2010 17:16 ColorsOfRainbow wrote:
z>t
z>p
t>p
nerf z
push p
Soon as they make zealots the counter to Marauders by makeing them immune to slow t>p will be almost balanced i would say. early game is where we kill them late game is 50/50 maybe a bit P favored.
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I should have clarified that I'm not saying that Hydra's should have +armored, just that there is something of a lack there from a role standpoint.
On April 04 2010 17:10 NicolBolas wrote:
But Hydralisks do counter Marauders. They take only base damage from them, and they do damage much faster than Marauders.
The problem is that Marauders can be paired with Hellions, which with their upgrade and mass numbers destroy Hydralisks by the dozen. Roach/Hydralisk can stop this, but Marauder/Hellion is a lot less gas intensive. Given equal econ, the Zerg player can't deal with it. Not directly, at any rate.
Right, that's what I've been saying the last few points. Exactly my point, except that it seems to me that for Hydra's being the counter to Marauders, those Marauders seem pretty darn effective against them.
On April 04 2010 17:10 xnub wrote:
Hydras allready destroy rines when rines are the counter /shrug hydras would own all then
If the only role the Hydra has is to take out Rines (which are already countered by quite a bit) and be our only combat unit to hit air, then something has gone wrong.
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The wings that lings get from metabolic boost should turn them into flying units, hitting air and ground. That would be pretty balanced imo.
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On April 04 2010 17:21 w_Ender_w wrote:I should have clarified that I'm not saying that Hydra's should have +armored, just that there is something of a lack there from a role standpoint. Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 17:10 NicolBolas wrote:
But Hydralisks do counter Marauders. They take only base damage from them, and they do damage much faster than Marauders.
The problem is that Marauders can be paired with Hellions, which with their upgrade and mass numbers destroy Hydralisks by the dozen. Roach/Hydralisk can stop this, but Marauder/Hellion is a lot less gas intensive. Given equal econ, the Zerg player can't deal with it. Not directly, at any rate. Right, that's what I've been saying the last few points. Exactly my point, except that it seems to me that for Hydra's being the counter to Marauders, those Marauders seem pretty darn effective against them. Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 17:10 xnub wrote:
Hydras allready destroy rines when rines are the counter /shrug hydras would own all then
If the only role the Hydra has is to take out Rines (which are already countered by quite a bit) and be our only combat unit to hit air, then something has gone wrong.
Hydras do great vs marauders to just need meat shields in front of them like the rines that are countered by hydras and roachs /shrug
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xnub i wish I could hand out sc2 strat forum bans
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On April 04 2010 17:23 rrowland wrote:
The wings that lings get from metabolic boost should turn them into flying units, hitting air and ground. That would be pretty balanced imo.
Fund it!
But seriously, if you could morph Speedlings into flying Banelings and pretend they were Scourge, I'd be so damn happy.
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The game is pretty balanced currently.
Only concern is maradeurs, could they exchange their power with tanks. MM is so boring 
Protoss are a bit weak when there is constant/continous battle. I think P doesn't have enough time to catch up with Z or T army rebuilding.
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EPT
