EPTIs ZvT Imbalanced ? - Page 2
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duckhunt
Canada311 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On April 04 2010 15:22 ivirj wrote: Im a platinum player and it always seemed to me that Zergs > Terrans. But could be me since its probably my worse matchup. Planetary Fortress is BS i agree it needs some kind of nerf like you cant repair it so fast or less damage. As a terran i dont see roaches having a place in this matchup they die so quickly to everything except rines and helions. Banelings/mutas are the most scary thing for me since they do so much damage (seriously they need to make the banelings do splash damage to friendly units like tanks) and the movility of the mutas is just too good The problem for me seems to come when everything else the Zerg player has dies so quickly to units like the Hellion. Hydra's or Ling's seem like the only good "meat" unit to base my ground army around, but they get torn by a few Hellions and Marauders with Medivacs and stim seem capable of taking down an equal (or greater) number of Hydra's. I'm really quite thankful that more Terran players don't do Hellion/Marauder, because there is nothing I have on the ground that can handle a moderately well micro'd force of those. If I go air, Mutalisks are effective until the Terran player tosses a few turrets or Thor's out there. Oh, and I checked that replay about PF's. 17 Mutalisks and 36 Roaches fail to kill a PF defended by 4 turrets, a single sieged tank, and 2 Thor's. | ||
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Kantutan
Canada1319 Posts
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On April 04 2010 15:45 duckhunt wrote: u complaining about scouting ? lol? speed ovie is pretty much free and rines cant kill them without stimming wtf I'm blown away by your intelligence. On April 04 2010 15:46 CharlieMurphy wrote: I also forgot to mention that I've even lost to the same low apm, predictable, bad terran player multiple times in ZvT because of this scouting issue and marauders/planetary forts. Yeah, those seem to be my primary issues as well. Do you have any replays (I don't mean specifically about this issue; I'm a relatively inexperienced RTS player (especially compared to most TL'ers) but have been doing well in the SC2 Beta and loved the first game. I'd love to seem more replays of good active Zerg players. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
I think the short distances between mains might also have something to do with adapting/reacting to scouting as much as the difficulty of scouting itself. w_Ender_w you can check the replay thread, I've got lots of reps posted in there. | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
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rrowland
United States84 Posts
I will agree that the big problem I see stems from not only the wide variety of tech options that Terran has, but also the inability to scout it. There is a giant blind spot as the Zerg in ZvT spanning the moment he walls and kills your scout (if you have one inside) until the moment you get overlord speed. This period usually last 2 to 4 minutes, during which time the zerg really has no idea what he's up against. On one hand, you can get fast lair. Currently this seems like a great choice as it opens up scouting and lots of tech choices. However, fast teching to lair leaves you extremely vulnerable to early MM pushes and usually gives the Terran a free expansion. On the other hand, you can mass T1, which is lings, roaches and BLings to counter early aggression. However, their wall protects them from most attacks that aren't all-in (roach rush, bane bust) so while you're adequately defended, you can't really do any significant damage with this approach. Knowing this, the Terran is free to tech to banshees. The response time you have when you see the first banshee is almost non-existant. Either you have a hydra den up already, or you lose before getting one up / getting hydras out. Aside from banshees, the Terran can instead make about 8-10 vikings and effectively kill off all of your overlords, prevent you from teching to mutas and harass your mineral lines. In any of these cases, if you do end up going hydra, the Terran simply builds tanks and hard counters your hydras. Furthermore, tanks demolish all zerg ground units. 1-shot on lings/blings, 2-shot on hydra, 2 shot on infestor, 3-shot on roach. The only exception is the ultralisk, which not only is a Tier 3 response to a Tier 2 unit, but regardless will be focused down in about half a second each by the MMM ball that every Terran builds. All of this on its own is somewhat manageable. The "blind spot" just turns those crucial 2-4 minutes into a guessing game for the zerg, which does seem like an imbalance to me. Furthermore, the Terran can scout the zerg during this time with either units or a scan, and react to the zerg, who is already playing blind. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 04 2010 15:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: avilo, just out of curiosity, what level player are you? Basically what you said 'could' be true, but what does that matter if you are raping zergs early on with a slew of build orders that they can't prepare for and will die to. i'm a very good "plat" (what a stupid ranking system, iccup's works better). sure you can possibly rape zergs with some strange things but every game feels like, "oh, I do this banshee opening, and if I do zero damage, it's impossible to recover." Or, "oh, I'll do this unorthodox aggressive opening, i don't kill him, I lose." it's never, "oh I will play a macro game..." because every time you try it vs a good Z, they steamroll with roach/hydra/baneling/infestor and their exponential economy, kill off your 1 army, then insta-refill their supply with like 20 larva, and you're dead  so just learn to survive past the first 7-10 min bullshit and you have freewin  | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
Avilo, can we play some games right now? I can't find any terans to game with >.< msg me SpoR.spor @ US | ||
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rrowland
United States84 Posts
But when I'm really trying to play a decent game, I either go 14hatch 14pool or 15pool 16hatch. I feel like I usually have just enough to hold off the early MM push, but it still puts me behind on lair, which puts me behind on hydra den, which loses me games to banshees or vikings. I never have problems with reapers, I sometimes have problems with hellion harass, I always have problems with tanks. Early viking support just dominates any air started afterward, making tanks such an easy tech for the Terran to switch to and dominate ground with afterward. | ||
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jabberwokie
Canada142 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 04 2010 16:08 rrowland wrote: Yeah, I would have to agree. I won't claim to play any matchup without some problems, but ZvT is my worst. Unlike you I usually don't have problems with Planetary Fortresses as I usually just build a couple corruptors and shut it down before attacking it, ignoring it until that point. Also unlike you, I have most of my problems with tanks. I will agree that the big problem I see stems from not only the wide variety of tech options that Terran has, but also the inability to scout it. There is a giant blind spot as the Zerg in ZvT spanning the moment he walls and kills your scout (if you have one inside) until the moment you get overlord speed. This period usually last 2 to 4 minutes, during which time the zerg really has no idea what he's up against. On one hand, you can get fast lair. Currently this seems like a great choice as it opens up scouting and lots of tech choices. However, fast teching to lair leaves you extremely vulnerable to early MM pushes and usually gives the Terran a free expansion. On the other hand, you can mass T1, which is lings, roaches and BLings to counter early aggression. However, their wall protects them from most attacks that aren't all-in (roach rush, bane bust) so while you're adequately defended, you can't really do any significant damage with this approach. Knowing this, the Terran is free to tech to banshees. The response time you have when you see the first banshee is almost non-existant. Either you have a hydra den up already, or you lose before getting one up / getting hydras out. Aside from banshees, the Terran can instead make about 8-10 vikings and effectively kill off all of your overlords, prevent you from teching to mutas and harass your mineral lines. In any of these cases, if you do end up going hydra, the Terran simply builds tanks and hard counters your hydras. Furthermore, tanks demolish all zerg ground units. 1-shot on lings/blings, 2-shot on hydra, 2 shot on infestor, 3-shot on roach. The only exception is the ultralisk, which not only is a Tier 3 response to a Tier 2 unit, but regardless will be focused down in about half a second each by the MMM ball that every Terran builds. All of this on its own is somewhat manageable. The "blind spot" just turns those crucial 2-4 minutes into a guessing game for the zerg, which does seem like an imbalance to me. Furthermore, the Terran can scout the zerg during this time with either units or a scan, and react to the zerg, who is already playing blind. T can be completely blind too b4 banshee/viking though too, you really economically can only afford one scan before that like you said. 2 lings on creep basically stops all scouting wtf And who cares about tanks when you have 30+roaches/hydras. and baneling are horribly > marines and corruptor to shut down fortress is so good lofl. and whoever mentioned the thor/hellion mech strat, it was pretty sexy freewin-ish until some Z started to MC the thors @_@ I had so many wins off of thor/hellion mech until like three games in a row some kids friggin MC'd the thors in the push lol. On April 04 2010 16:15 CharlieMurphy wrote: rrowland, so do you just go 1 base tech every time versus terran? What happens when you find out that the terran was 1 rax FE with a Pfort? Avilo, can we play some games right now? I can't find any terans to game with >.< msg me SpoR.spor @ US ok, i'm avilo.avilo add me, I usually can only get in games late at night EST tho lmao. | ||
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zizzefex
Canada34 Posts
@CharlieMurphy: I'm high gold terran (was top 5) and I've been playing plats almost exclusively. TvZ is by far my easiest matchup for my favored strat (dual port banshee)... I love seeing zerg. My TvP isn't bad and TvT is horrible have to change strats completely. I almost feel it's free win vs zerg as terran. I don't know how viable a quick spire/mutalisk rush is, using extra minerals to put up some crawlers. Most (good) terran units people abuse can't hit air. I really don't know how good they do once vikings come out but I almost feel zerg needs air superiority on terran. | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
I really believe you're overthinking all of this, so much so that you're looking at things backwards. You have overlords stationed around the map, and likely zerglings near the Terran base and at the watch towers. The terran is lucky to have view over anything other than his base at this point in the game. He has to give up a large chunk of economy to scout in most instances (scanning, floating a rax), as it's easy to shut down SCV scouting with lings. Basically, the terran has less of an idea what you're doing than you do of what he's doing. So, why are you so frantic? Play however you'd like (within reason, for example don't FE and not automatically cover for Hellions somehow), and alter your build when you do see things. Zerg is incredibly strong when tech switching - much moreso than the other races. Use that fact to your advantage. Also, it's worth noting that the Terran does have a long stretch of the game in which they don't have access to stim and medivacs. This isn't BW, the stim/heal combo takes quite a while longer to become available. However, when it does get to that point, mix your units correctly and flank - play like a real zerg. Banelings mixed with pretty much any 2 other types of zerg units (ling, hydra, roach, muta) dominate most of the terran arsenal. | ||
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rrowland
United States84 Posts
On April 04 2010 16:23 avilo wrote: And who cares about tanks when you have 30+roaches/hydras. and baneling are horribly > marines If you have 2 tanks behind your MMM ball, you're going to demolish 30+ hydras. If you have 3 tanks behind your MMM ball, you're going to demolish 30+ roaches. Tanks are amazing and dominate all zerg ground (Except ultralisks, which are Tier 3 anyway). | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
But ya anyways Z>T just learn your counters and stuff and evolve like terrans have been. Scouting is super easy to overlords or the Very underestimation Clone scout really good : P. If anything terran have a harder time scouting you guys fucking overlords spawning creep and some corner and tossing down a hydra den, spire or banlings nest man thats allways a surprize omg thats sooo gay lol. Cost use the 300 min to do the scan to it cost you guys nothing. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 04 2010 16:33 rrowland wrote: If you have 2 tanks behind your MMM ball, you're going to demolish 30+ hydras. If you have 3 tanks behind your MMM ball, you're going to demolish 30+ roaches. Tanks are amazing and dominate all zerg ground (Except ultralisks, which are Tier 3 anyway). Get lings the counter to tanks send them in infront of your hydras and roachs and watch the tanks kill more marins then Zerlings thats allways great : / or go under ground with roachs pop up from back and be like wtf bitchs. Or snipe with mutas like you have to with colos Or if its really late Broodlords omfg the things they shoot if your tanks are siege say by by to your front lines lol. Ahhhh FF its great .... : ( | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 04 2010 16:31 QibingZero wrote: To be honest, I disagree with most of what you're saying, and especially the PF part. Building a PF is a huge sink to the Terran's economy. You're trading resources, SCV build time, MULEs, scan, and the ability to lift the CC off... all for a stationary defense vs ground only. Terran basically gives up even more map control than they already give up, just to secure a non-OC expansion. There's a reason you only see PF used sparingly. I initially thought PF was noobville to even consider building one since you do not get scan or mules, but I built some in my past few games and they can be more economical than a mule because you basically get to keep that expo so you end up with a solid econ whereas an OC is easily attackable. | ||
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