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Currently in patch 7 beta (and probably before)
Preface:
+ Show Spoiler +I'm a rank 12~ platinum zerg player and I have this habit of asking people every game what rank they are. It seems that I play mostly plats around my level until I run into a terran and I die, then I will sometimes play either lower ranked plat or top level gold. (and I even lose to these terrans often)
Also, ever since the reset I have been keeping track of matchup records on a piece of paper. My ZvZ and ZvP are winning records (59% & 58%) but my ZvT is a horrible 44%. It's funny because my ZvT actually used to be my best matchup a few patches ago (probably mostly because terrans weren't as seasoned yet).
So anyways, I don't know if it's just me and something I don't know/do in the matchup, but for the life of me I cannot figure out how to not get owned in this matchup.
I have been trying all kinds of openings just trying to find a decent safe one, but it seems the terran can easily scout it and counter it, or just play standard and be fine anyways. I have tried: 14 hatch/13 pool, 15 hatch/14 pool, 1 hatch speedlings/blings, 1 hatch roaches, fast muta, etc.
The real problem imo, is that it is nearly impossible to scout the terran, while they can easily scout you. The reason why scouting is so important in this early is because you need to know what to counter.
Typical Terran openings:
- Reaper
- Hellions
- Bunker/proxy rush
- MnM
- Marauder/Hellion
- FE
- Banshee
- Viking
Almost all of which require different units/defenses.
For the first 2, FE/roach opening works ok, but the reapers can still show up before the roach warren is up, and queens don't really cut it. You're gonna lose some drones, and even if you make some crawlers they don't cover all the angles, same as the queen they're too slow.
Hellions, are usually easy to scout if they walled and you can use a ling/drone scout to see the factory on the reactor at their door.
Just to note, roaches are too slow to keep up with harassers as well, but usually you can have a few to cover the angles.
Bunker rush is basically the same thing in BW, just send a lord/drone to your not and react accordingly with drones/lings/queens/crawlers.
Now the last 5 strats are the real killers.
A good terran will keep only a few units (like 1 marine/marauder) at the wall and disguise whatever he is making in his base. So he could easily have 2-3 more rax by his CC pumping men until he scans or whatever and makes the timing push, expands, gets medivacs, etc.
Just as easily, he could be making marauder/hellion and keep pumping the units at you.
He can also build his CC further in his base (so you can't see with lord/ling) and have less units and just drop bunkers/p-fort when he expands quickly. And then take it from there.
Alternatively, he can tech to starports, and either get banshee (which do too much damage imho) or vikings which can at the very least rape half your lords, but can also harass mineral lines etc. meanwhile he is expanding and pumping marauders and then just moves out and lands the vikings on the floor to help dish out the dps and tank.
It feels to me that marauders, banshees, and planetary fortress are a bit overpowered for this matchup. I could be wrong, because the real problem for me is just scouting and reacting in time.
If I rush to lair, I won't have ovie speed or overseer in time to see his tech and be able to react at my base in time. (And I'm not even gonna get into if the terran hides his structures somewhere else on the map.) Crawlers build in 50 seconds, throwing down hydra den, roach warren, or bling nest AND trying to make the units of of them in time is impossible.
So basically what happens is I am just building blindly and hoping I guess right, or trying to make a little bit of everything in order to respond in time to my scouts, which usually leaves my econ trashed or just doesn't give enough units to counter anyways.
Again, I could be completely wrong about all of this, but I seem to have tried everything and in the other matchups I am doing fine. So if anyone has any advice, I'll take it. I also don't seem to have high level terran players to game with, so if you are one, I'd like to mass game with you.
Also, assuming we are playing properly and making correct counters (imagine maphax on or whatever). It seems to me that these units are too poweful
Marauders: They have a ton of HP and are a semi small unit , can stim , have a slowing attack to kite, can be healed by medivacs, (all of those making ling surrounds not easy / as effective) and do ridiculous damage to armored/structures. They basically do well versus hydras, lings, roaches, blings, crawlers, even ultras. They have no hard counters on the ground, and mutas take a long time to kill them.
Some suggestions would be to make stim do more damage since it seems that marauders can stim almost indefinitely. Marines lose ~20% of their life when they stim, marauders lose 8%. It could possible to scale with their HP and 20% of their life would be 25hp. So both marines and marauders would lose 20% when they stim. I mean, lorewise it's not like stim ruins their armor, it ruins the person's body inside. Afaik marauders are the same human criminals inside as marines. So 3-4 stims and you're out.
Other suggestions would be to make them slightly larger, shorten their stim duration, nerf the slowing attack (maybe even remove it altogether), reduce their max HP, or increase build time.
Banshees: Fast, very mobile, decent HP, High damage, good range, and they can cloak eventually. What are their weaknesses again?
early on they can take a queen 1v1, they can 2 shot drones/lings, good damage to roaches, DPS buildings pretty well, and even hydras in low or equal numbers seem to melt under them. Especially off creep where hydras are super slow and early where hydras don't have range yet. Spore crawlers have to be placed everywhere in order to stop them because of their range, and that's not really cost effective.
Planetary Fortress: This thing is supposed to help with defense not be a show stopper. Just about any time I see a Pfort I say to myself "Ok, can't attack/stop that expo, what else can I do?" And I made a thread about this thing before. If you have equal armies and you fight near a pfort its GG for zerg. Where if a zerg had 4 crawlers and a queen with equal numbers, it's nothing. Any kind of raid or backdoor assault near a pfort is also completely suicidal. Also http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118040 granted, most people didn't agree with me, but higher level zerg players seem to (even terrans using them on me). I only ask for the simple corruption buffs.
Allow corruption to remove all attack AI priority from the PF for attack units being attack moved near it. So you can get at the SCV, and at the very least just make them run away instead of staying mining or repairing. Allow corruption to be recasted over something already corrupted to refresh the 30 second timer.
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i hate the PF, i think it should be more of a take forever to kill fortress rather than this ultra-powerful cannon that can wipe out an entire army. maybe +500/1000 hp and +5 armor with a small single target attack instead?
serves the purpose of protecting an expo from attacks until your army gets there
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As a gold player, I find it hard to say it's imbalanced, but there are certainly a few things they can change to make it better. I think the problem with playing a Terran player is that their hard counters are HARD counters, and really force the Zerg player into a very homogenous army. Hellions counter anything early on the ground except Roaches. Marauders do well against everything but Speedlings and Hydra (which only require a small amount of Hellions to effectively destroy).
The whole Marauder/Roach thing seems to be the problem here. Roaches are the only good counter to most Terran ground units (mostly due to the high prevalence of splash damage by Hellions and Tanks), but Marauders smash Roaches to pieces. And then Marauders also smash other units to pieces.
As far as Banshee's go... yeah, they are a huge pain, but they also require a sacrifice to tech quickly to and can be beaten back. If the guy is good, it requires the Zerg player to spend a pretty hefty amount of resources to be secure, but SC2 seems to emphasize that detection and ground-to-air is costly.
Planetary Fortress is a bit silly. One guy was able to push back around 12-15 Muta's and what must have been 30 Roaches with a PF and 2 thors and a lot of SCV's. I'll try to find the replay. Won eventually, but it really opened my eyes at the effectiveness of the PF. But it requires the guy to not get more scan/mules. I'm not sold on it being overpowered, but I do agree when you say it completely shuts down raiding and harassment (beyond Mutas, which get toasted by the new Turrets/Thor's).
I hate to call "imbalance", so I won't yet, but it does seem like much smaller amounts of Terran units can counter very large amounts of Zerg units for pretty cheap, without much tech, and even the Zerg counters to units like Marauders are just not very viable. To beat a Terran player it really feels like you have to outwork/outproduce/outexpand and outmicro.
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On April 04 2010 15:08 Chen wrote:
i hate the PF, i think it should be more of a take forever to kill fortress rather than this ultra-powerful cannon that can wipe out an entire army. maybe +500/1000 hp and +5 armor with a small single target attack instead?
serves the purpose of protecting an expo from attacks until your army gets there
well, that would be kinda redundant then, because terran could just as easily make it an OC and lift away where zerg can't hit it.
other suggestions I had for it
# Reduce the range to 5 and make it +1 to 6. This way hydras w/ range can outrange it until he gets the upgrade at least.
# Change the attack, to instead of doing splash, to attack faster and hit 1 target at a time.
# Change the damage from 40, to 25+15 light or something similar.
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if you play the attrition game with terran, zerg has a huge advantage. If you are trying to bust him constantly, a fail attempt will cost u games.
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i have been feeling the opposite. If you do not win vs Zerg or gain an advantage in around 7 minutes, you die to exponential economy and whatever they want to literally throw at you to deny your third...then you die.
everything you literally mentioned OP, that can kill or hurt you, are just build orders/initial units early or right as the mid-game is starting. Once it's past that stage (if you survive, which good Z can), then ZvT is essentially free win for Zerg.
baneling/roach/hydra can pretty much rape any marine heavy army with very little micro, and if terran loses their first ball of marines, they lose the game because of how fast Z can reproduce supply limit.
feels like a much harder, if not impossible late game for Terran, whereas like you described, the early game build orders, or little tricky unit ratios work out well for Terran...before the 7-10 min mark. After that, if Terran did not equalize or get some type of advantage, it's Zerg freewin imo.
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avilo, just out of curiosity, what level player are you?
Basically what you said 'could' be true, but what does that matter if you are raping zergs early on with a slew of build orders that they can't prepare for and will die to.
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On April 04 2010 15:12 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 15:08 Chen wrote:
i hate the PF, i think it should be more of a take forever to kill fortress rather than this ultra-powerful cannon that can wipe out an entire army. maybe +500/1000 hp and +5 armor with a small single target attack instead?
serves the purpose of protecting an expo from attacks until your army gets there well, that would be kinda redundant then, because terran could just as easily make it an OC and lift away where zerg can't hit it. other suggestions I had for it Show nested quote +# Reduce the range to 5 and make it +1 to 6. This way hydras w/ range can outrange it until he gets the upgrade at least.
# Change the attack, to instead of doing splash, to attack faster and hit 1 target at a time.
# Change the damage from 40, to 25+15 light or something similar.
well if the zerg has any AA (hydras) it cant run away in time right? idk i just think more hp/armor for less attack makes it less game-breaking in a battle while providing the defense you want when under attack even just getting rid of splash would help. esp with the comp auto-targeting the fortress instead of the 20 repairing scv's
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Im a platinum player and it always seemed to me that Zergs > Terrans. But could be me since its probably my worse matchup.
Planetary Fortress is BS i agree it needs some kind of nerf like you cant repair it so fast or less damage.
As a terran i dont see roaches having a place in this matchup they die so quickly to everything except rines and helions. Banelings/mutas are the most scary thing for me since they do so much damage (seriously they need to make the banelings do splash damage to friendly units like tanks) and the movility of the mutas is just too good
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I sincerely feel that Blizs overdid buffing terrans in latest patches.
The other problem is that terran units are multipurpose, even tier1 units of terran basically counter 90% of Z or P army. That's a serious problem.
When I play zerg I have to rush to get Lair and Hydras because of the possible banshee harass. But sometimes terran doesn't build a single starport and roll over me with MM and helions 
There is no way I can scout what is going on. Its retarted.
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mutas were inherently nerfed in this matchup by giving thors flak cannons and making turrets do way more damage though.
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On April 04 2010 15:13 SirNeb wrote:
if you play the attrition game with terran, zerg has a huge advantage. If you are trying to bust him constantly, a fail attempt will cost u games.
Tell me how the zerg can win the attrition game with terran. With both races turtling, terrans can have PFs, siege tanks, ravens, thors, bunkers, and turrets, all of which destroy large zerg armies with very little effort. Where as zerg has...? And with medivacs being standard in all terran bio armies, it's very easy for the terran to doom drop the zerg in late stages of the game and kill all of zergs tech before zerg can react.
To me this match up seems really difficult; there are games where I was ahead in base count, and still lost to a large terran push/drop. Before mutas seemed to be a viable opening but at patch 7 going mutas seem to be an autoloss as your mutas will do jackshit against even 3 turrets guarding the mineral line.
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i agree with you on Marauders and PF, though i have decent win percentage against Terrans for the past 2-3 weeks (i sucked terribly beforehand)
i open speedling
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maybe zvt was imbalanced b4 in favor of zerg now ur strat isnt working bcause of patch and u cant adjust to it
god i love words
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On April 04 2010 15:31 splcer wrote:
maybe zvt was imbalanced b4 in favor of zerg now ur strat isnt working bcause of patch and u cant adjust to it
god i love words
dont talk about stuff u dont know
kinda funny, but anyways. I said in the op that I've tried different strats..
The problem is scouting, which has always been a problem from the start. Before though, terrans were predictable and didn't know they could do all those things I listed in the op.
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Marauder stim pack takes 20HP to stim, not 10. I wouldn't mind seeing it being increased to 25 though since it makes Marauders so powerful when stimmed.
As for Banshees, I think the downside to them is their price and time it takes to get them; they also can't attack air I guess.
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I'll give an input from the Terran point of view. Plat 27 right now with TvZ being my most capable matchup
Reaper
In a reaper-optimized BO, reaper comes at the time that allows the terran to punish hatch first. Personally, I think that hatch first is not necessary in SC2 thanks to the queen. I'm not saying that a zerg has to play 1 base against a 1 base terran, but generally zerg has more mapcontrol early game than a T, allowing for a safer earlier expansion anyways. Nospeed reapers can be countered (for lack of a better word, reacted?) by both zerglings and speedlings and queen. Speeded reapers can be countered by speedlings. It is also countered by roaches. As the T, I think that a zerg can play safe by going poolfirst and then expanding during/after lingspeed will allow the Z to be safe against reapers and at the same time let the Z get early expansion.
Hellions
Just like the reaper, hellions can be stopped quite easily by speedlings and roaches (not slow zerglings). Since it comes at a much later time, the Z shouldn't find it TOO difficult to prepare for it. In a good scenario the Z can scout it and react immediately. In a bad scenario the Z may not scout it, but getting a roach warren and 2~4 roaches as insurance would prevent much harm. If it's a medivac drop, it's more potent, and it comes down to micro imo (using queen to attack medivac while controlling drones to separatethem and attacking hellions with lings/roaches)
Bunker rush
Honestly, it's not impossible or very difficult to take down a bunker with 1~2 marines before the hatch goes down. a good surround with a mixture of drones, zerglings, and a queen will take down a bunker rather quickly. Of course, target fire repairing SCVs first. I know as the T that a skilled Z can stop a bunker rush from taking down the hatch. Of course, it damages the zerg's economy but the zerg is taking a gamble when it chooses to hatch first.
MnM
MnM alone is rather easily stopped...I'm guessing you mean MnMnM? Baneling+lings are the key to destroying any MMX force, and honestly I've found that hydras are surprisingly effective against MMM without tank with good positioning. I would say the best way to counter MMX before tier 3 would be hydra doubleling (or I guess mutal doubling but I would say hdyras are better than mutalisks right now because of turrets and thor). Banelings can be ridiculously cost-effective with the right control and scenario from my experience.
Marauder/Hellion
I've never really done this because if the zerg can survive until mutas it puts the T at a terrible position.
FE
I feel like Terran 1rax FE is a lot more viable in SC2 because of the durability of buildings against lings. I haven't done this because in practice games my friend always defeated me with a specific cheese. But frankly if you can get mutalisks out before thors and the terran skimps on turrets, it will be gg because marines cannot protect 2 bases from mutalisks effectively because of muta's mobility
Banshee
I've won a lot of games in early beta using banshees. But banshees are a huge investment as the terran, and if it's stopped well the zerg is hugely in favor in my opinion which is why I rarely use them anymore. A nocloak banshee comes out between 6:30~7 iirc. So if the T goes 1port, that's 1, and 2port, that's 2. Now, if there's only 1, 2 queens can defend it. Korean pros will get 2~3 queens and place them near each other if they suspect banshees. Of course, this is to buy time until lair and hydra or muta and overseer. As for cloaked banshees, cloaking taking 2 minutes to research, and it's definitely viable to get a lair before cloaked banshee can come in. If the T goes 1port, it's probably on even ground with similar skill level, and if the T goes 2 port the game is pretty much decided at that point depending on how well the zerg is prepared (either complete loss or a VERY favorable position). I don't use this so much anymore, and I would say it's not overpowered because it's like any cheese, it can be stopped if you spot a starport with a tech lab.
Viking
1~2 vikings can be stopped with queens only or hydras. Getting 4~5 vikings is a HUGE investment, and if the Z has overlords all over the place it will pay off. But if not, the T is in a VERY bad position IF the Zerg doesn't rush broodlords because the viking's ground mode isn't good enough for it to be important part of the terran one-punch army.
Almost all of which require different units/defenses.
I kinda disagree with the statement. I think speedlings or roach warren-expand-lair-hydra den is a pretty versatile opening that can stop all the things mentioned above with proper control and some information.
I know scouting must be a pain, but as the Z you have to throw in 1~2 overlords to see what the T is doing. The good thing is that once you see a starport with techlab or factory with a reactor you have a good idea how to shut the build down. And frankly, as long as Z doesn't get caught completely unprepared, Z can recover majority of the losses it suffers thanks to map control and faster and safer expansions. Not to mention Z can pump drones very quickly once it is safe.
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i've always found I could rush ovie speed and get into his base enough to rush to defend any type of fast banshee or weird mech builds, but it always comes really close and i need to make the upgrade a big priority.
I do 13 pool
queen @ 100% pool
lair @ 100% queen
ovie speed@ 100% lair
with at least 2 ovies on either side of his main, ready to rush in when the upgrade finishes. hope this helps!
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Just like in BW when a factory opening could mean a lot of things, I just sacrifice a slowverlord into the main at a certain time to see what's up. A lot of maps are kinda big and you might not see everything, but you'll always get some valuable info like how many marines he has at the very least. I do this when terran is being sneaky and putting one marine at his wall like you mentioned. I almost always do a very greedy roach FE and if I see a fast factory I drone less and lair faster. Otherwise I just continue as normal and drone while saving some larva in case of some timing attack etc.
+ Show Spoiler +disclaimer: I'm only rank 19 in plat atm with not an immense amount of games under my belt.
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zvt is imba yes, z >>>>>>>> t lol
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u complaining about scouting ? lol? speed ovie is pretty much free and rines cant kill them without stimming wtf
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I also forgot to mention that I've even lost to the same low apm, predictable, bad terran player multiple times in ZvT because of this scouting issue and marauders/planetary forts.
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On April 04 2010 15:22 ivirj wrote:
Im a platinum player and it always seemed to me that Zergs > Terrans. But could be me since its probably my worse matchup.
Planetary Fortress is BS i agree it needs some kind of nerf like you cant repair it so fast or less damage.
As a terran i dont see roaches having a place in this matchup they die so quickly to everything except rines and helions. Banelings/mutas are the most scary thing for me since they do so much damage (seriously they need to make the banelings do splash damage to friendly units like tanks) and the movility of the mutas is just too good
The problem for me seems to come when everything else the Zerg player has dies so quickly to units like the Hellion. Hydra's or Ling's seem like the only good "meat" unit to base my ground army around, but they get torn by a few Hellions and Marauders with Medivacs and stim seem capable of taking down an equal (or greater) number of Hydra's.
I'm really quite thankful that more Terran players don't do Hellion/Marauder, because there is nothing I have on the ground that can handle a moderately well micro'd force of those. If I go air, Mutalisks are effective until the Terran player tosses a few turrets or Thor's out there.
Oh, and I checked that replay about PF's. 17 Mutalisks and 36 Roaches fail to kill a PF defended by 4 turrets, a single sieged tank, and 2 Thor's.
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Idra completely dominated a terran today, go check out some of his zvt replays or something I suppose. If he can do it then others can too :p
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On April 04 2010 15:45 duckhunt wrote:
u complaining about scouting ? lol? speed ovie is pretty much free and rines cant kill them without stimming wtf
I'm blown away by your intelligence.
On April 04 2010 15:46 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I also forgot to mention that I've even lost to the same low apm, predictable, bad terran player multiple times in ZvT because of this scouting issue and marauders/planetary forts.
Yeah, those seem to be my primary issues as well. Do you have any replays (I don't mean specifically about this issue; I'm a relatively inexperienced RTS player (especially compared to most TL'ers) but have been doing well in the SC2 Beta and loved the first game. I'd love to seem more replays of good active Zerg players.
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1 replay doesn't really explain how to scout/adapt to all the builds of terrans. I mean sure, I can just blindly make one of those counters but what if they went banshee when I went bling? What If they made marauders/marines when I went hydras? What if they rush to hellions when im teching to muta?
I think the short distances between mains might also have something to do with adapting/reacting to scouting as much as the difficulty of scouting itself.
w_Ender_w you can check the replay thread, I've got lots of reps posted in there.
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Why don't you use an ovie to see exactly what units he's getting? Unless he's going pure marines, you'll scout him before your ovie dies.
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Yeah, I would have to agree. I won't claim to play any matchup without some problems, but ZvT is my worst. Unlike you I usually don't have problems with Planetary Fortresses as I usually just build a couple corruptors and shut it down before attacking it, ignoring it until that point. Also unlike you, I have most of my problems with tanks.
I will agree that the big problem I see stems from not only the wide variety of tech options that Terran has, but also the inability to scout it. There is a giant blind spot as the Zerg in ZvT spanning the moment he walls and kills your scout (if you have one inside) until the moment you get overlord speed. This period usually last 2 to 4 minutes, during which time the zerg really has no idea what he's up against.
On one hand, you can get fast lair. Currently this seems like a great choice as it opens up scouting and lots of tech choices. However, fast teching to lair leaves you extremely vulnerable to early MM pushes and usually gives the Terran a free expansion.
On the other hand, you can mass T1, which is lings, roaches and BLings to counter early aggression. However, their wall protects them from most attacks that aren't all-in (roach rush, bane bust) so while you're adequately defended, you can't really do any significant damage with this approach. Knowing this, the Terran is free to tech to banshees. The response time you have when you see the first banshee is almost non-existant. Either you have a hydra den up already, or you lose before getting one up / getting hydras out. Aside from banshees, the Terran can instead make about 8-10 vikings and effectively kill off all of your overlords, prevent you from teching to mutas and harass your mineral lines.
In any of these cases, if you do end up going hydra, the Terran simply builds tanks and hard counters your hydras. Furthermore, tanks demolish all zerg ground units. 1-shot on lings/blings, 2-shot on hydra, 2 shot on infestor, 3-shot on roach. The only exception is the ultralisk, which not only is a Tier 3 response to a Tier 2 unit, but regardless will be focused down in about half a second each by the MMM ball that every Terran builds.
All of this on its own is somewhat manageable. The "blind spot" just turns those crucial 2-4 minutes into a guessing game for the zerg, which does seem like an imbalance to me. Furthermore, the Terran can scout the zerg during this time with either units or a scan, and react to the zerg, who is already playing blind.
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On April 04 2010 15:21 CharlieMurphy wrote:
avilo, just out of curiosity, what level player are you?
Basically what you said 'could' be true, but what does that matter if you are raping zergs early on with a slew of build orders that they can't prepare for and will die to.
i'm a very good "plat" (what a stupid ranking system, iccup's works better).
sure you can possibly rape zergs with some strange things but every game feels like, "oh, I do this banshee opening, and if I do zero damage, it's impossible to recover." Or, "oh, I'll do this unorthodox aggressive opening, i don't kill him, I lose."
it's never, "oh I will play a macro game..." because every time you try it vs a good Z, they steamroll with roach/hydra/baneling/infestor and their exponential economy, kill off your 1 army, then insta-refill their supply with like 20 larva, and you're dead
so just learn to survive past the first 7-10 min bullshit and you have freewin 
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rrowland, so do you just go 1 base tech every time versus terran? What happens when you find out that the terran was 1 rax FE with a Pfort?
Avilo, can we play some games right now? I can't find any terans to game with >.<
msg me SpoR.spor @ US
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Well lately I've been going 1base baneling bust, which works like 90% of the time since everybody in US walls with depots, LOL
But when I'm really trying to play a decent game, I either go 14hatch 14pool or 15pool 16hatch. I feel like I usually have just enough to hold off the early MM push, but it still puts me behind on lair, which puts me behind on hydra den, which loses me games to banshees or vikings. I never have problems with reapers, I sometimes have problems with hellion harass, I always have problems with tanks. Early viking support just dominates any air started afterward, making tanks such an easy tech for the Terran to switch to and dominate ground with afterward.
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SirNeb speak truth. You have to play macro on terran and this means shutting them down to 1 or two base and deffinitely NOT a high yield. Hellion marauder with banshee suport seems to be the strongest anti ground army there is. it's unstoppable without air support. You don't need more then 1 spore per base for detection with an overseer patrol backup. You have queens remember, so if he early banshees then start building those 2 extra queens RIGHT away cause the ones you have now... they're going to die. get 2 base asap saturate first and get 5 or so drones + queen at natrual, with minimal defense- like 4 roach and 2 spine or something then move into roach hydra until around 60 supply at which point you should have scouting info from fast ovi which should be your first lair upgrade and lair should be first 100 gas imho. (skip lings entirely against terran for first bit unless proxy rax or bunker on your expand) If he goes ground (marauder hellion) go air ,get banelings for dropping and keep making roaches. Baneling tech should be obtained after lair and ovi speed imo as they realyl have limited use in the matchup currently. I favor drop tech over nydus against terran as they can still doom drop for back-dooring and it is harder to abuse cliffs etc against a drop-teched zerg. You should only have a token few military units before you havve full saturation with 24 drones. Delaying 2nd gas to get 7-8 on natural for a more econ focus is possible but I highly favor the tech options the early saturation allows. imho there are a few upgrades that are essential, all the speed and the hydra range upgrade are necessary in EVERY game so get them early and benefit the most. Getting 3 queens for 2 bases is a good idea to open up transfusion as a reasonable option, allow early creep tumors which are also more benificial the longer they are active and you will need a 3rd queen eventualy for your 3rd base anyways. Queens have good dps against no armor units however even 1 armor cuts their effectiveness by 25% against ground. I can't say enough for the benifits of creep, your army is SOOO much more effective on it. try to fight in open areas and split your army to execute pincer, or multi pronged/ faced attacks to 1) increase fighting surface area (more units will actively engage at once) you will cut off reinforcements or retreat or you will lose a chunk of army to gain huge advantage with the other. against terran keep your army outside your base or in areas where it won't get scanned easily or you can gain favorable position on an attack, you can invite said attack and then benefit from it.
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On April 04 2010 16:08 rrowland wrote:
Yeah, I would have to agree. I won't claim to play any matchup without some problems, but ZvT is my worst. Unlike you I usually don't have problems with Planetary Fortresses as I usually just build a couple corruptors and shut it down before attacking it, ignoring it until that point. Also unlike you, I have most of my problems with tanks.
I will agree that the big problem I see stems from not only the wide variety of tech options that Terran has, but also the inability to scout it. There is a giant blind spot as the Zerg in ZvT spanning the moment he walls and kills your scout (if you have one inside) until the moment you get overlord speed. This period usually last 2 to 4 minutes, during which time the zerg really has no idea what he's up against.
On one hand, you can get fast lair. Currently this seems like a great choice as it opens up scouting and lots of tech choices. However, fast teching to lair leaves you extremely vulnerable to early MM pushes and usually gives the Terran a free expansion.
On the other hand, you can mass T1, which is lings, roaches and BLings to counter early aggression. However, their wall protects them from most attacks that aren't all-in (roach rush, bane bust) so while you're adequately defended, you can't really do any significant damage with this approach. Knowing this, the Terran is free to tech to banshees. The response time you have when you see the first banshee is almost non-existant. Either you have a hydra den up already, or you lose before getting one up / getting hydras out. Aside from banshees, the Terran can instead make about 8-10 vikings and effectively kill off all of your overlords, prevent you from teching to mutas and harass your mineral lines.
In any of these cases, if you do end up going hydra, the Terran simply builds tanks and hard counters your hydras. Furthermore, tanks demolish all zerg ground units. 1-shot on lings/blings, 2-shot on hydra, 2 shot on infestor, 3-shot on roach. The only exception is the ultralisk, which not only is a Tier 3 response to a Tier 2 unit, but regardless will be focused down in about half a second each by the MMM ball that every Terran builds.
All of this on its own is somewhat manageable. The "blind spot" just turns those crucial 2-4 minutes into a guessing game for the zerg, which does seem like an imbalance to me. Furthermore, the Terran can scout the zerg during this time with either units or a scan, and react to the zerg, who is already playing blind.
T can be completely blind too b4 banshee/viking though too, you really economically can only afford one scan before that like you said. 2 lings on creep basically stops all scouting wtf
And who cares about tanks when you have 30+roaches/hydras. and baneling are horribly > marines
and corruptor to shut down fortress is so good lofl.
and whoever mentioned the thor/hellion mech strat, it was pretty sexy freewin-ish until some Z started to MC the thors @_@ I had so many wins off of thor/hellion mech until like three games in a row some kids friggin MC'd the thors in the push lol.
On April 04 2010 16:15 CharlieMurphy wrote:
rrowland, so do you just go 1 base tech every time versus terran? What happens when you find out that the terran was 1 rax FE with a Pfort?
Avilo, can we play some games right now? I can't find any terans to game with >.<
msg me SpoR.spor @ US
ok, i'm avilo.avilo add me, I usually can only get in games late at night EST tho lmao.
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Sup rrowland haha :>
@CharlieMurphy: I'm high gold terran (was top 5) and I've been playing plats almost exclusively. TvZ is by far my easiest matchup for my favored strat (dual port banshee)... I love seeing zerg. My TvP isn't bad and TvT is horrible have to change strats completely. I almost feel it's free win vs zerg as terran.
I don't know how viable a quick spire/mutalisk rush is, using extra minerals to put up some crawlers. Most (good) terran units people abuse can't hit air. I really don't know how good they do once vikings come out but I almost feel zerg needs air superiority on terran.
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To be honest, I disagree with most of what you're saying, and especially the PF part. Building a PF is a huge sink to the Terran's economy. You're trading resources, SCV build time, MULEs, scan, and the ability to lift the CC off... all for a stationary defense vs ground only. Terran basically gives up even more map control than they already give up, just to secure a non-OC expansion. There's a reason you only see PF used sparingly.
I really believe you're overthinking all of this, so much so that you're looking at things backwards. You have overlords stationed around the map, and likely zerglings near the Terran base and at the watch towers. The terran is lucky to have view over anything other than his base at this point in the game. He has to give up a large chunk of economy to scout in most instances (scanning, floating a rax), as it's easy to shut down SCV scouting with lings.
Basically, the terran has less of an idea what you're doing than you do of what he's doing. So, why are you so frantic? Play however you'd like (within reason, for example don't FE and not automatically cover for Hellions somehow), and alter your build when you do see things. Zerg is incredibly strong when tech switching - much moreso than the other races. Use that fact to your advantage.
Also, it's worth noting that the Terran does have a long stretch of the game in which they don't have access to stim and medivacs. This isn't BW, the stim/heal combo takes quite a while longer to become available. However, when it does get to that point, mix your units correctly and flank - play like a real zerg. Banelings mixed with pretty much any 2 other types of zerg units (ling, hydra, roach, muta) dominate most of the terran arsenal.
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On April 04 2010 16:23 avilo wrote:And who cares about tanks when you have 30+roaches/hydras. and baneling are horribly > marines
If you have 2 tanks behind your MMM ball, you're going to demolish 30+ hydras. If you have 3 tanks behind your MMM ball, you're going to demolish 30+ roaches. Tanks are amazing and dominate all zerg ground (Except ultralisks, which are Tier 3 anyway).
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corruptor to shut down fortress as many have said and immortals for toss both Rape the fortress and make it worthless.
But ya anyways Z>T just learn your counters and stuff and evolve like terrans have been. Scouting is super easy to overlords or the Very underestimation Clone scout really good : P.
If anything terran have a harder time scouting you guys fucking overlords spawning creep and some corner and tossing down a hydra den, spire or banlings nest man thats allways a surprize omg thats sooo gay lol. Cost use the 300 min to do the scan to it cost you guys nothing.
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On April 04 2010 16:33 rrowland wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 16:23 avilo wrote:And who cares about tanks when you have 30+roaches/hydras. and baneling are horribly > marines If you have 2 tanks behind your MMM ball, you're going to demolish 30+ hydras. If you have 3 tanks behind your MMM ball, you're going to demolish 30+ roaches. Tanks are amazing and dominate all zerg ground (Except ultralisks, which are Tier 3 anyway).
Get lings the counter to tanks send them in infront of your hydras and roachs and watch the tanks kill more marins then Zerlings thats allways great : / or go under ground with roachs pop up from back and be like wtf bitchs. Or snipe with mutas like you have to with colos
Or if its really late Broodlords omfg the things they shoot if your tanks are siege say by by to your front lines lol.
Ahhhh FF its great .... : (
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On April 04 2010 16:31 QibingZero wrote:
To be honest, I disagree with most of what you're saying, and especially the PF part. Building a PF is a huge sink to the Terran's economy. You're trading resources, SCV build time, MULEs, scan, and the ability to lift the CC off... all for a stationary defense vs ground only. Terran basically gives up even more map control than they already give up, just to secure a non-OC expansion. There's a reason you only see PF used sparingly.
I initially thought PF was noobville to even consider building one since you do not get scan or mules, but I built some in my past few games and they can be more economical than a mule because you basically get to keep that expo so you end up with a solid econ whereas an OC is easily attackable.
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Couple thoughts on all this.
I'll start with the most important. You can always know what the Terran player is doing by sacrificing overlords at key moments in the game. You just have to know when. This is a skill you have to learn or you will face many unnecessary losses. There's no excuse for not doing it. Every race has to pay a price to scout a walled off Terran player, including Terrans.
Secondly, Planetary Fortress can only attack ground. It's a significant investment, really. If the player has to get a Planetary Fortress, he's giving up a significant economic bonus. It's like if you played with one less queen or if the Protoss built a nexus without Chrono Boost. I think it's a fair tradeoff, and should realistically only deter small attacks. If his entire army is there and you still lose, one could argue that it's not the Fortress that's securing the deal.
Banshees, also, require an absolutely astronomical investment in time and resources, especially if the player goes double Starport early on. If you don't scout it, you have no right to win.
Marauders might be an issue. I think intelligent players can deal with them, but they are definitely strong with stim, I can't argue that. The problem is compounded by the fact that Marines take so much longer to get into production, both because of the increased production time and the length on reactors, so Terrans favor Marauders even more with the patch.
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On April 04 2010 16:34 xnub wrote:
corruptor to shut down fortress as many have said and immortals for toss both Rape the fortress and make it worthless.
But ya anyways Z>T just learn your counters and stuff and evolve like terrans have been. Scouting is super easy to overlords or the Very underestimation Clone scout really good : P.
If anything terran have a harder time scouting you guys fucking overlords spawning creep and some corner and tossing down a hydra den, spire or banlings nest man thats allways a surprize omg thats sooo gay lol. Cost use the 300 min to do the scan to it cost you guys nothing.
I don't understand the sentiment that scouting is free for a Zerg player. The Changeling is arguably free after we tech to lair and upgrade some Overlords, but other scouting attempts usually require a Zergling sacrifice (cheap, but doesn't work against a wall and costs larvae) or an Overlord sacrifice, which sometimes doesn't work, costs minerals, and costs supply. Imagine if you scouted by catapulting supply depots across the map (which would be AWESOME) and we scouted by using an ability called "Queen Remote Viewing" or something, and then said your scouting was free.
This is by no means to say they are equivalent by cost or effectiveness (I don't want to derail this thread) but saying that scouting is free isn't true. Nothing is free.
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My problem is even when I do go lings, they evaporate before really reaching the MMM ball or the tanks. Maybe I should be dropping a third or fourth hatch for more larva when I'm going lings, I don't know. I just know that in my experience, even when I switch to mostly lings, tanks + MMM seem to evaporate my lings before doing what I want them to do.
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On April 04 2010 16:41 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 16:31 QibingZero wrote:
To be honest, I disagree with most of what you're saying, and especially the PF part. Building a PF is a huge sink to the Terran's economy. You're trading resources, SCV build time, MULEs, scan, and the ability to lift the CC off... all for a stationary defense vs ground only. Terran basically gives up even more map control than they already give up, just to secure a non-OC expansion. There's a reason you only see PF used sparingly.
I initially thought PF was noobville to even consider building one since you do not get scan or mules, but I built some in my past few games and they can be more economical than a mule because you basically get to keep that expo so you end up with a solid econ whereas an OC is easily attackable.
if you do it on your first expand it is noob vile need 2 CC first then go PF. But ya immortals or 1 corruptor and your pf is gone lol. Like said above
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On April 04 2010 16:42 w_Ender_w wrote:
I don't understand the sentiment that scouting is free for a Zerg player. The Changeling is arguably free after we tech to lair and upgrade some Overlords, but other scouting attempts usually require a Zergling sacrifice (cheap, but doesn't work against a wall and costs larvae) or an Overlord sacrifice, which sometimes doesn't work, costs minerals, and costs supply. Imagine if you scouted by catapulting supply depots across the map (which would be AWESOME) and we scouted by using an ability called "Queen Remote Viewing" or something, and then said your scouting was free.
Terran pay ~250 minerals to scan in the same situation, and there's no guarantee the scan location will show them everything. Protoss spend, what, 100/100 on an Observer that could potentially be shot down before it sees anything as well. Why should the Zerg get a free ride when it comes to scouting?
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On April 04 2010 16:42 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 16:34 xnub wrote:
corruptor to shut down fortress as many have said and immortals for toss both Rape the fortress and make it worthless.
But ya anyways Z>T just learn your counters and stuff and evolve like terrans have been. Scouting is super easy to overlords or the Very underestimation Clone scout really good : P.
If anything terran have a harder time scouting you guys fucking overlords spawning creep and some corner and tossing down a hydra den, spire or banlings nest man thats allways a surprize omg thats sooo gay lol. Cost use the 300 min to do the scan to it cost you guys nothing. I don't understand the sentiment that scouting is free for a Zerg player. The Changeling is arguably free after we tech to lair and upgrade some Overlords, but other scouting attempts usually require a Zergling sacrifice (cheap, but doesn't work against a wall and costs larvae) or an Overlord sacrifice, which sometimes doesn't work, costs minerals, and costs supply. Imagine if you scouted by catapulting supply depots across the map (which would be AWESOME) and we scouted by using an ability called "Queen Remote Viewing" or something, and then said your scouting was free. This is by no means to say they are equivalent by cost or effectiveness (I don't want to derail this thread) but saying that scouting is free isn't true. Nothing is free.
Overlords Free Scouting till mid game need them for supply nothing to take them down unless you leave them right in the enemys base or are very stupid with them. Mid game you get overseer for any stealth anyways so you get the cloans for mid game very fast unit easy to shit down a cloan in base.
Late game is the only point where you could say it become a issue cause lot air is up lots turrents cannons and lots units roming the map. Probly lose a few overlords even if you are crafull but most times worth it cause you are really mostly looking for expos at this point in game,
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On April 04 2010 16:49 RatherGood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 16:42 w_Ender_w wrote:
I don't understand the sentiment that scouting is free for a Zerg player. The Changeling is arguably free after we tech to lair and upgrade some Overlords, but other scouting attempts usually require a Zergling sacrifice (cheap, but doesn't work against a wall and costs larvae) or an Overlord sacrifice, which sometimes doesn't work, costs minerals, and costs supply. Imagine if you scouted by catapulting supply depots across the map (which would be AWESOME) and we scouted by using an ability called "Queen Remote Viewing" or something, and then said your scouting was free.
Terran pay ~250 minerals to scan in the same situation, and there's no guarantee the scan location will show them everything. Protoss spend, what, 100/100 on an Observer that could potentially be shot down before it sees anything as well. Why should the Zerg get a free ride when it comes to scouting?
its not a free ride it is a little gayer late game with overlord hunts. But ya early and mid game hehe
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PF is easily counterable with Corruptor... I don't think it's my biggest issue...
I just think that it's really tough to fight stimmed, upgraded mass marauders with medivacs no what matter what unit composition you have, they destroy everything...
and banshees deal just way too much damage and kill Queens too easily...
ZvT is easier than ZvP in my opinion tho...
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On April 04 2010 16:57 zazen wrote:
PF is easily counterable with Corruptor... I don't think it's my biggest issue...
I just think that it's really tough to fight stimmed, upgraded mass marauders with medivacs no what matter what unit composition you have, they destroy everything...
and banshees deal just way too much damage and kill Queens too easily...
ZvT is easier than ZvP in my opinion tho...
I agree on the Marauder thing. It's like Hydralisks are missing +armored damage. They should be the counter to Marauder, but still fail due to Stim and slow walking speed.
As far as ZvT compared to ZvP... ZvP became a LOT more manageable when I learned to counter the Immortal timing push. Once I got over that hump it became a really fun match up. Same way ZvZ became fun when Speedlings became viable as an alternative to 1 base mass Roach vs. 1 base mass Roach :D
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The short answer is: no. ZvT is not imbalanced.
The long answer is: we don't know. People really suck at SC2. Nothing is more ridiculous or more humorous than when someone says something like "Korean pros make 2-3 queens and group them together to stop banshees." Granted, these people are not only behind the curve, they're probably on a different curve altogether, but aside from them, everyone still really sucks. But the fact is, there are no Korean pros. SC2 has only been available for a very short time and is a long way from being anywhere near optimized. Until game play is a lot more stable we can't really comment on balance because the rate of change will be so high from day to day.
I'm #1 in Platinum as Zerg (or at least I was last night. I'm probably not any more). And even though I think I'm a lot better at understanding RTS-style games than nearly everyone, I still surprise myself from day to day saying, "wow, I didn't see this match up anything like this." So I think that there is a lot to learn and that there are gonna be a lot of subtle and major shifts that eventually transform SC2 so that the current understanding of racial balance will look misguided. It's another question altogether whether we should judge balance from the standpoint of current game knowledge or not. I'm sure you could make a strong case that we should use current game knowledge to decide racial balance, and then you might have a case for the possibility of ZvT being imbalanced, but even if we used that rubric I think that it would have to come with the caveat that our knowledge is very likely to be wrong
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I agree on the Marauder thing. It's like Hydralisks are missing +armored damage. They should be the counter to Marauder, but still fail due to Stim and slow walking speed.
But Hydralisks do counter Marauders. They take only base damage from them, and they do damage much faster than Marauders.
The problem is that Marauders can be paired with Hellions, which with their upgrade and mass numbers destroy Hydralisks by the dozen. Roach/Hydralisk can stop this, but Marauder/Hellion is a lot less gas intensive. Given equal econ, the Zerg player can't deal with it. Not directly, at any rate.
It's another question altogether whether we should judge balance from the standpoint of current game knowledge or not. I'm sure you could make a strong case that we should use current game knowledge to decide racial balance, and then you might have a case for the possibility of ZvT being imbalanced, but even if we used that rubric I think that it would have to come with the caveat that our knowledge is very likely to be wrong
What else is there besides current game knowledge to base understanding about game balance on? Nothing.
It is entirely possible that any apparent imbalances currently seen are due to a lack of strategy. With a game as complex as StarCraft, it is very difficult to prove that there isn't a strategy that beats this. The question is how long would you, as Blizzard, be willing to wait to see if a strategy is eventually found. And therefore, how much evidence do you need for an imbalance before acting?
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On April 04 2010 17:02 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 16:57 zazen wrote:
PF is easily counterable with Corruptor... I don't think it's my biggest issue...
I just think that it's really tough to fight stimmed, upgraded mass marauders with medivacs no what matter what unit composition you have, they destroy everything...
and banshees deal just way too much damage and kill Queens too easily...
ZvT is easier than ZvP in my opinion tho... I agree on the Marauder thing. It's like Hydralisks are missing +armored damage. They should be the counter to Marauder, but still fail due to Stim and slow walking speed. As far as ZvT compared to ZvP... ZvP became a LOT more manageable when I learned to counter the Immortal timing push. Once I got over that hump it became a really fun match up. Same way ZvZ became fun when Speedlings became viable as an alternative to 1 base mass Roach vs. 1 base mass Roach :D
Hydras allready destroy rines when rines are the counter /shrug hydras would own all then
On April 04 2010 17:10 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +I agree on the Marauder thing. It's like Hydralisks are missing +armored damage. They should be the counter to Marauder, but still fail due to Stim and slow walking speed. But Hydralisks do counter Marauders. They take only base damage from them, and they do damage much faster than Marauders. The problem is that Marauders can be paired with Hellions, which with their upgrade and mass numbers destroy Hydralisks by the dozen. Roach/Hydralisk can stop this, but Marauder/Hellion is a lot less gas intensive. Given equal econ, the Zerg player can't deal with it. Not directly, at any rate.
Hellions are over rated vs hydras they are cool and all but they only destroy them when they are no microed right and get caught in balls spread them out make them a line focus the hellions as they try and pick at your edges don't give them splash and they can be easy.
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On April 04 2010 17:16 ColorsOfRainbow wrote:
z>t
z>p
t>p
nerf z
push p
Soon as they make zealots the counter to Marauders by makeing them immune to slow t>p will be almost balanced i would say. early game is where we kill them late game is 50/50 maybe a bit P favored.
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I should have clarified that I'm not saying that Hydra's should have +armored, just that there is something of a lack there from a role standpoint.
On April 04 2010 17:10 NicolBolas wrote:
But Hydralisks do counter Marauders. They take only base damage from them, and they do damage much faster than Marauders.
The problem is that Marauders can be paired with Hellions, which with their upgrade and mass numbers destroy Hydralisks by the dozen. Roach/Hydralisk can stop this, but Marauder/Hellion is a lot less gas intensive. Given equal econ, the Zerg player can't deal with it. Not directly, at any rate.
Right, that's what I've been saying the last few points. Exactly my point, except that it seems to me that for Hydra's being the counter to Marauders, those Marauders seem pretty darn effective against them.
On April 04 2010 17:10 xnub wrote:
Hydras allready destroy rines when rines are the counter /shrug hydras would own all then
If the only role the Hydra has is to take out Rines (which are already countered by quite a bit) and be our only combat unit to hit air, then something has gone wrong.
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The wings that lings get from metabolic boost should turn them into flying units, hitting air and ground. That would be pretty balanced imo.
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On April 04 2010 17:21 w_Ender_w wrote:I should have clarified that I'm not saying that Hydra's should have +armored, just that there is something of a lack there from a role standpoint. Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 17:10 NicolBolas wrote:
But Hydralisks do counter Marauders. They take only base damage from them, and they do damage much faster than Marauders.
The problem is that Marauders can be paired with Hellions, which with their upgrade and mass numbers destroy Hydralisks by the dozen. Roach/Hydralisk can stop this, but Marauder/Hellion is a lot less gas intensive. Given equal econ, the Zerg player can't deal with it. Not directly, at any rate. Right, that's what I've been saying the last few points. Exactly my point, except that it seems to me that for Hydra's being the counter to Marauders, those Marauders seem pretty darn effective against them. Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 17:10 xnub wrote:
Hydras allready destroy rines when rines are the counter /shrug hydras would own all then
If the only role the Hydra has is to take out Rines (which are already countered by quite a bit) and be our only combat unit to hit air, then something has gone wrong.
Hydras do great vs marauders to just need meat shields in front of them like the rines that are countered by hydras and roachs /shrug
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xnub i wish I could hand out sc2 strat forum bans
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On April 04 2010 17:23 rrowland wrote:
The wings that lings get from metabolic boost should turn them into flying units, hitting air and ground. That would be pretty balanced imo.
Fund it!
But seriously, if you could morph Speedlings into flying Banelings and pretend they were Scourge, I'd be so damn happy.
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The game is pretty balanced currently.
Only concern is maradeurs, could they exchange their power with tanks. MM is so boring
Protoss are a bit weak when there is constant/continous battle. I think P doesn't have enough time to catch up with Z or T army rebuilding.
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On April 04 2010 15:53 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 15:45 duckhunt wrote:
u complaining about scouting ? lol? speed ovie is pretty much free and rines cant kill them without stimming wtf I'm blown away by your intelligence. Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 15:46 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I also forgot to mention that I've even lost to the same low apm, predictable, bad terran player multiple times in ZvT because of this scouting issue and marauders/planetary forts. Yeah, those seem to be my primary issues as well. Do you have any replays (I don't mean specifically about this issue; I'm a relatively inexperienced RTS player (especially compared to most TL'ers) but have been doing well in the SC2 Beta and loved the first game. I'd love to seem more replays of good active Zerg players.
you are just a noob so i forgive your insults
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I really don't think Z needs to scout T before a normally timed Lair and OL speed. The problem (for both Z and T) is that roaches "counter" everything. (Please don't read this is af I'm saying roaches are overpowered, because they're simply not). I recently wrote this in another thread, but roaches are are as cost effective as hydras against marauders. The first time you need to add hydras is when they add medivacs, at least it feels so in my experience.
The only thing you need to scout early is the banshee thing. It's something you can't really see if it's coming, only that it isn't coming (by scouting their army or expansion). And it's usually possible to see one of their rax, and how often they keep the lights on in there. Maybe it's a good idea to add more queens and an evo chamber if you can't write early banshees off.
But I agree that Z vs T is a tough matchup. Marauders are a little bit too strong, and banshees reach a little bit too far... And you have no good transition after you've added hydras, cause you need to be constantly cranking out units, which will delay your hive tech. Corruptors are useless unless morphed into brood lords, and mutas are way too weak in this game and matchup, and can't be morphed into shit. It feels like you're stuck pumping the same two units the entire game, and once they've added on medivacs, ravens, thors, tanks and even ghosts for nuking your expansions, they are way too strong for your units too handle now that they've made the hive upgrades for roaches useless too.
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he was calling you dumb i believe for saying overlords with speed are how zerg are meant to scout a walled off terran?
when lair+upgrade come after banshees are already raining down on your drones for example.
it helps you scout whatever they might be massing AFTER that. but OP was complaining theres no way to scout that kind of rush. but thats just part of the game in my opinion. my only advice is early lair/den to be safe from air
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imo this is the most broken mu right now... even more than ZvZ
Late GAME is PHUKKKKKEEEEEDDDDDD. Wtf do you do when T has turtled and only moves out trying to take out one of ur expos severly hurting ur army while he waits for a couple of thors and its GG.
vs an Equally skilled player the Terran has a HUGE EDGE, zerg has to be clever tactics and when he wants to commit to and attack.
Now imagine this!!! LURKERS!!! funny how sc2 units that are supposed to be in the future got so much worse!!
GOD I MISS LURKERS!!!!!
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Zurich15327 Posts
Actually took the time to read this. So, Charlie, you lose and thus ZvT is imba?
And everyone else either disagrees or agrees based on them losing ZvT/TvZ?
I think we can safely answer to the OP: No, most likely not.
If you want to reopen this provide solid data outside of personal experience and theorycrafting.
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EPT
