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On April 07 2010 19:21 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
I've yet to see a single high-level Replay where Ultralisks were indeed useful. Its not like this game has been out let alone out for several years for you to be able to even legitimately say that with any credibility. Not to mention how many good players are there out there right now? if you only have a handful of players its not unthinkable some really powerful strategies or just simply units are just being ignored since the players just never thought of them or do not wish to use them. We're human, the other guy gets planes we get planes, the other guy gets tanks we get tanks.
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Cool story bro but it makes little to no sense. Also there are a tons of skilled players already.
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On April 07 2010 22:00 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Cool story bro but it makes little to no sense. Also there are a tons of skilled players already.
It's .. very relative and what depends on what you actually consider good, a year from now and all the current top players will be considered terrible newbies. No one in the world has yet found the most optimal ways to use certain units let alone builds that would allow one specific unit to be used well.
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Last time I'll go off topic:
No. The best players now would not be considered terrible newbies. The overall skill level risen when the amount of new players drop but heck, you wouldn't consider current "pros" like that.
OT:
I still have to see a Replay where they're useful. I've used them myself but rather for my own enjoyment of finishing off the players who certainly haven't had any chances left.
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Indeed... it took several years before Zerg was using DarkSwarm as a regular part of the game, Ultra-Ling also took a long time to Develop.
And I'm sure everyone knows about Muta-Stacking.
I'd like to think, that Starcraft2 has things in it, that will evolve into usefulness over the course if its life, years and years into it. To think that we should expect to see the full gambit of strategy and unit usage over the course of the beta would be expecting a pretty shallow and stagnant game when it comes time to release and hopefully E-Sports.
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As long as the ultralisk is easily interrupted by anything tiny in its path it will not shine. You cant easily get all lings aside and let the ultralisk pass. It wouldve been so good if lings wouldnt interrupt its path so damn easy.
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I believe the problem is that too many other units are overpowered, while the Ultralisk is about fine. It lacks darkswarm, but it does so much more damage now to units that clump up even better in SC2 that it's about even. The problem is that Roaches are simply better, more versatile, and more cost effective against almost every unit then the Ultralisk, and pretty much everything that counters the Roach counters the Ultralisk about as well. Its not really a matter of skill or micro. If anything, Roaches are the ones that get even better as players get better at micro. We have two units, both armored type, both intended to be high armor/high health tanks that also deal fairly significant damage. One of these is going to end up being strictly better then the other. Consequentially, when other races are given units that are designed to be the balancing factor against Roaches, those same units become overwhelmingly ridiculously powerful against Ultra's.
Would anyone even build Ultralisks (outside of possible gimmicks like burrow ambushes) if they were moved to T1.5, producable alongside the Roach from the Roach Warren? The answer may well be yes, but the mere fact that you have to think for a second about that means something is horribly wrong with the Roach.
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On April 08 2010 00:23 Cyclon wrote:
I believe the problem is that too many other units are overpowered, while the Ultralisk is about fine. It lacks darkswarm, but it does so much more damage now to units that clump up even better in SC2 that it's about even. The problem is that Roaches are simply better, more versatile, and more cost effective against almost every unit then the Ultralisk, and pretty much everything that counters the Roach counters the Ultralisk about as well. Its not really a matter of skill or micro. If anything, Roaches are the ones that get even better as players get better at micro. We have two units, both armored type, both intended to be high armor/high health tanks that also deal fairly significant damage. One of these is going to end up being strictly better then the other. Consequentially, when other races are given units that are designed to be the balancing factor against Roaches, those same units become overwhelmingly ridiculously powerful against Ultra's.
Would anyone even build Ultralisks (outside of possible gimmicks like burrow ambushes) if they were moved to T1.5, producable alongside the Roach from the Roach Warren? The answer may well be yes, but the mere fact that you have to think for a second about that means something is horribly wrong with the Roach.
I wouldn't hesitate. Heck I would make a couple ultras. As long as I dont have to get that much upgrades and investments done to get a single ultra out, which isnt that good in lategame.
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You needed 4 gas to pump out ultras in SC1. Maybe get good eco before you transition to ultras?
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On March 28 2010 22:45 laste wrote:
if you've ever used like 10 ultras with max upgrades alongside a little support against a heavy terran bio build for example you wouldn't even think of making such a silly post. ultras are just plain awesome, altho they require a ton of tech and cash, I trully believe that they're an effective unit in some situations(maybe not in uberpr0 games tho).
I'll attach some replays of mine when I get a chance.
If you're sitting on 10 ultras with max upgrades then you're clearly outplaying your opponent and/or they are massively below your skill level. Combine taht with the fact that TvZ's trending toward including thors which wreck ultras w/ the special ability.
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On March 28 2010 20:11 AmstAff wrote:
if u build 2 ultras without any support they suck of course, like every other unit too. mix in ultras in the lategame and they are so damn strong together with your main army. seriously if u build one ultra and think "yes i won now" u play the wrong game.
yes marines/stalkers/range units can try to hit n run but z has the fastest units in the game and a group of speedlings prevent the opponent from running away.
people should stop this "my tier3 unit sucks, cause it doesnt make me win the game" thread. yesterday the BC was shit and today its the ultra. next thread the colossus sux cause it can be attacked by air and ground.
btw yesterday i watched the stream of an ally TvZ and the Z mixed in 3-4 Ultras and guess waht? they survived liked 20 tankshoots + attacks from 3/4 planetaryfortresses + stimed marines + marauders.
they kill the p meatshield in seconds so i dont get your problem really.
Except the fact that if the terran has 1 medivac for every 3 ground units, the medivacs will heal ALL THE DAMGE DELT by ultras faster than they can deal it, esp w/ ling back up.....Hydra Ultra is the ONLY way to use ultras vs terran bioball... Even then Hydra/Ling/Broodlord and Hydra/roach is much much much more cost effective, and faster to rebuild if you mess up slightly....
So yes, Ultras are a waste of Mins...
Oh, and LOL ultras deal 1/3 damage to a thor that a thor deals to it (this is DPS damage and not just damage damage) Now if thors counted as a "building" it would put the thor back where it belongs as an extremely powerful backup mech for the rest of the terran army, not a massable super unit that rapes anything zerg can throw at it (save for broodlords, and please don't ask me to prove that you can mass thors before zerg can get broodlords in a "normal" game. Hellion harrass, esp MASS hellion harrass forces a zerg to waste mins and more importantly gas on roaches. While the terran builds ONE MORE BUILDING to get the uncounterable anti zerg super unit.)
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waste of money, go broodlords
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ultras are INSANE in this game. they need a buff like a fish needs a bicycle
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On April 23 2010 12:22 innoby wrote:
Except the fact that if the terran has 1 medivac for every 3 ground units, the medivacs will heal ALL THE DAMGE DELT by ultras faster than they can deal it, esp w/ ling back up.....Hydra Ultra is the ONLY way to use ultras vs terran bioball...
Medivacs heal slower than medics did in SC, and cost significantly more. I don't think a Medivac can out-heal the dmg an ultra does to a single target, yet alone the damage it can do to a dozen due to splash.
Ultras are a very focused unit. They pretty much shit stomp lings, zeals and marines but don't do so well vs most other units. (esp Thors and Sentries)
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On April 23 2010 12:40 Louder wrote:
ultras are INSANE in this game. they need a buff like a fish needs a bicycle
You are toss, you can have immortals and chances are WILL have immortals before I can even get one Ultra, guess what, ultras do what 3 damage to immortals and immortals do what? 50 to ultras...yeah waaaay too powerful WAAAAAY too powerful.
To counter the contention that Medivacs heal SLOWER than medics, medics healed two damage for one energy, medivac does 3, same rate of energy usage larger energy pool AND more HP, AND they don't have to move to melee range to heal a unit...
So how the FUCK do you get that medivacs heal slower? I can't even kill ONE with 8 mutas before 6 marines kill ALL 8 MUTAS....(tried to snipe medivacs and learned NO CAN DO, gotta kill the marines then the medivacs, until I get 15+ mutas then I can muta micro and kill one medivac with each run...) So yeah again prove it.
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I've encountered ultralisks only once in a PvZ where my opponent had me crushed early but made a huge mistake by not pushing when he could have wiped me out.
I was in the process of macroing back into the game as he was being passive and massing ultras. My 125supply army absolutely destroyed his 200 army comprised mostly of ultras, with a dash of hydras (at the end of the key battle his supply went from 200 to 60 and mine went from 125 to 110). It wasn't even close. Mind you I had the perfect counter, mass Immortal/Sentry, but it was kind of ridiculous how little damage I took to take out his entire 200 army with upgrades.
Moral of the story: ultras need some sort of buff, or at the very least should be cheaper.
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Brood lords are also the only thing stopping 4-5 colossi and mass stalkers from raping everything Z has. Same goes for any terran force with an abundance of tanks.
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all i know is that blizzard still has a lot of balancing to do...and if they mess up my precious zerg they'll be hell to pay. =P
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EPT
