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On March 05 2004 01:43 Beyonder wrote:
The point that it is proven to be very important for a child to have both a father and a mother.
Can u direct me to whom said that? I was told as a child by many people i considered smart and educated that sitting close to the TV would ruin my eyes. I then asked my optomologist, optometrist, and optician and they all had the same response: it's a myth.
I believe it neccessary for a child to have a functional, positive environment to grow up in. I believe that this can be provided in a household that has 8 adults all partaking in the raising of a child, or a household of 1 parent. Parenting is not restricted to 2 people. Let alone restricted to 1 mother or father. Your studies are inconclusive, whereever they are from. They have not tested the effect of having 20 parents and the effect of having only 2. I would then add that gender would have even less a role in parenting.
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On March 05 2004 12:08 Ilintar wrote: TigG, I think you're doing this completely the wrong way. I could write probably 15 points about "why should computer players have free internet" outlining the commonly mentioned evils of computer games and disposing of them one by one. That's not the case though. Tell me please - why should governments give _privileges_ to homosexual couples? An institution of marriage is a privilege. This privilege is granted to heterosexual couples because a heterosexual couple is a natural (and please don't tell me homosexuality is natural, it isn't, nature created two species the way it did) way of promoting procreation - even if not every heterosexual couple is capable of having kids, as a _general_ heterosexual couples are capable of having kids. Homosexual ones are not. That's why I don't think they should get any kind of active support from the government. True, sodomy laws are a relict from the middle ages (  ) and should be revoked, gay people shouldn't be discriminated in any way because that's simply not fair. But promoting something that is against the human nature just because there's a large lobby group is going a little too far...
I guess i expressed myself wrong, as i don't get why you say that about computer games.
I agree with you, that is the pourpouse of the privileges that the goverment gives to couples, but, as said before, what if a couple doesn't have child? should those privileges be revoked at the end of their lives? I don't think so.
And that problem would be fixed if gay couples were allowed to adopt kids, but that's an issue i don't have a firm opinion on, so i won't say anything.
And i do think you are born gay or not. Being born gay is an error of course, but shit happens. If they are truly born gay, denying them their gayness would be like denying you the right to love women.
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On March 05 2004 01:48 Commander[SB] wrote: Show nested quote +On March 05 2004 01:43 Beyonder wrote:
The point that it is proven to be very important for a child to have both a father and a mother. Of course, and in an ideal world every kid would have a very loving mother and father. But in our not-so-ideal-world with kids already in orphanages, how does a gay couple adopting them hurt anyone in any way? They still love there kid just as much. And thats really what the world needs the most right now. A little bit of love.
in an ideal world, hate and prejudice would not exist. in an ideal world, there would be mutual love by both parents. I do not believe that gender of the parents would be ideal.
I have dealt with more hate because of my sexuality, than most heterosexuals will in their lifetime. I personally think that this experience will benefit a child (if i ever have one). I can teach him what love is and what hate is. The difference between them, and where tolerance comes in. I do not hate heterosexuals (though, i do, by far, have a greater reason to than *any* heterosexual on this planet). I abhor hate. To harbor such a thing would be a flaw. Homosexuality is considered many a flaw of nature. Be that as it may. Those people who *condemn* me for that *percieved* flaw in nature, i in turn condemn. For their flaw is far greater. And it exists in their *human nature*. They think it natural and acceptable to hate. For that, do i condemn.
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On March 05 2004 01:48 baal wrote:
Commander[SB] In my opinino your freedom ends when anotherone starts.
I mean they can marry and do whatever they want, but having a child means to put a boy with no possible opinino into a huge stress into school.
I cant really imagine how they manage to survive school having 2 queers taking care of him... just imagine the mental abuse.
Remember that post of that guy who was beated in hongkong?, well now imagine a kid with gay parents OMG! endless torture just because 2 god damn queers wanted to take care of someone... well buy a god damn cat.
Can you imagine having a parent who is in a wheelchair? (i dont know what kind of life u live, but i know that being that my dad is a professional soccer coach, the thought of him not having that aspect in his life would completely change who he is, and therefore make it 'unimagineable' to think otherwise).
Your parents greatly effect the person you are. You can't imagine homosexual parents because u do not have homosexual parents. Being that you seem to have a prejudice against homosexuals having children, i would argue that your parents are poor ones. Had you been *my* son, you would not hate any1, nor hold prejudice. That is not something i would teach my kids.
If my kids will suffer teasing at school, so be it. I will have dealt with far worse teasing than them, and through that experience and strength i will be able to help them through theirs. They will be better for it. If it can be avoided, by all means. But i wont refrain from having children because someone might have a problem with my child having *me* as a parent.
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On March 05 2004 01:54 baal wrote: Show nested quote +On March 05 2004 01:51 TranCe wrote:
i like to think i turned out fine.i can't speak for every other single parent/child though. interesting. but im not saying its a rule, im saying its a big possibility, if they pick sometimes on random targets imagine having such a "tail"... I only know that i'd really wouldnt want to be a child raised by homosexuals.
good. as a homosexual, i sure as hell wouldnt want u as a child.
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[B]On March 05 2004 14:01 Teroru wrote
I was told as a child by many people i considerd smart and educated that sitting close to the TV would ruin my eyes. I then asked my optomologist, optometrist, and optician and they all had the same response: it's a myth.
thats funny. my eyes deteriorated from +1.0 to -1.1 because of watching tv very closely when I was a kid. (or so my eyedoctors said. yep not one)
damn I never knew my eye-glasses were just a myth 
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On March 05 2004 02:01 Beyonder wrote: Show nested quote +On March 05 2004 01:57 Commander[SB] wrote: On March 05 2004 01:54 baal wrote: On March 05 2004 01:51 TranCe wrote:
i like to think i turned out fine.i can't speak for every other single parent/child though. interesting. but im not saying its a rule, im saying its a big possibility, if they pick sometimes on random targets imagine having such a "tail"... I only know that i'd really wouldnt want to be a child raised by homosexuals. Why? would you be ashamed of your parents? If you would, thats sad. Having two parents of the same sex is not as optimal as having two parents of different sex. Combine that with the point that you'll get teased and it will have a lifetime effect on you, that its not widely accepted, and looked at as gross - makes me perfectly understand why he would say such a thing. And about sad, your average parents take kids to stuff together, and kiss there for example. Imagine a person under 16 with their two male parents out, and they kiss? You'd feel really awkward, and would be ashamed. That's just the way society and the evolution of a person works in most cases?
I don't blindly accept that a straight parenting couple is better than a homosexual one. Point me to someone who can back up their arguement.
If your parent likes to pick his nose and wipe it on his partner, and this parent knows that it will embarass his kid, does he do it?
Thats a very shallow arguement. If my child had grown his whole life learning what sexuality truly is, i dont think he would be embarassed by it. but *if he was*, there is no fucking way in hell, as a father, that i would put my child through that. No good parent would.
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On March 05 2004 02:02 DV8 wrote: Show nested quote +On March 05 2004 01:42 Commander[SB] wrote:
Whats wrong with gay couples adopting kids? My reasoning being, first off I don't think I could survive so I can't say im ok with someone else going through it, but than again I am already raised a certain way which makes it seem to awkward. Secondly although there are 2 parents its as if the child only receives parenting from one parent in this case only one sex. How is that bad for the child you ask, well just look at men and women, both different on the mental and physical surfaces, so only being subjected to one sex they are deprieved of what the other sex may have to offer in the form of parenting such as insight or the sheer presence. I don't think the 2 same sex parents would be bad for them but rather the child would be missing out on something. I mean take a look at single parents, I mean its possible but is it really what you would want for a child. And please no hypotheticals such as what if the child were raised in a abusive home, because the arguement can be easily reversed.
in the form of insight and sheer presence? Yeah, thats true. And a professor of philosophy and a professor of physics will by far be able to provide more insight than a garbage man and a welfare mom. Heterosexuals do *not* have more insight than a homosexual simply because of their sexuality. They *may have more insight*; but this is because of their experiences in life and what they can share, not because they are attracted to the same sex or not.
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On March 05 2004 02:02 Commander[SB] wrote: Show nested quote +On March 05 2004 01:54 Beyonder wrote: On March 05 2004 01:50 Commander[SB] wrote:
Maybe they need to go to a better school. I go to a school where one of my brothers best friends dad is now technically a woman, dresses in female clothes, and comes to our school on a regular basis.
My brothers friend doesn't have to live through much 'mental abuse'.
Edit: to baal The level of acceptance on these kind of matters differs based on region, and population. In some places live the kind of people that easilly accept this, and their kids will take over this behaviour. In some places there are a lot of these people, in some not. I'm sure that at the point where I got teased for having glasses, it was already a normal thing somewhere else. It however isn't rational to send your kids to school 100 miles away now is it? If a gay couple adopts a kid in like the middle of Redneck, Kentucky. Yeah maybe thats not the safest for the kid, but perhaps there are ways to prevent other students from knowing about him/hers parents. I mean I don't think it will be very good for the self-esteem of the kid to have to lie about his parents, but it surely beats being teased to death by kids in the classroom.
You really dig up some odd circumstances.
Being that i am homosexual, i think i know more than any heterosexual where would be a positive environment for me to raise my kid. If i know that he would have a hard life living in Kentucky, then i, as a parent who wishes to be a good one, would not raise him there.
And the parents that would? well, thats their right *as a parent*. I look at the parenting in the world, and i see a plethora of problems. Do u know what that means? Well, since not a single one of these parenting relationships are homosexual, they are a part of your heterosexual problems. Your presuming that homosexual parents will have the same problems that heterosexual parents have, and more. I argue that homosexual and heterosexual parents alike have problems, and not one more than the other because of their sexuality.
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On March 05 2004 02:16 DV8 wrote: Show nested quote +On March 05 2004 02:08 Commander[SB] wrote: On March 05 2004 02:01 Beyonder wrote: On March 05 2004 01:57 Commander[SB] wrote: On March 05 2004 01:54 baal wrote: On March 05 2004 01:51 TranCe wrote:
i like to think i turned out fine.i can't speak for every other single parent/child though. interesting. but im not saying its a rule, im saying its a big possibility, if they pick sometimes on random targets imagine having such a "tail"... I only know that i'd really wouldnt want to be a child raised by homosexuals. Why? would you be ashamed of your parents? If you would, thats sad. Having two parents of the same sex is not as optimal as having two parents of different sex. Combine that with the point that you'll get teased and it will have a lifetime effect on you, that its not widely accepted, and looked at as gross - makes me perfectly understand why he would say such a thing. And about sad, your average parents take kids to stuff together, and kiss there for example. Imagine a person under 16 with their two male parents out, and they kiss? You'd feel really awkward, and would be ashamed. That's just the way society and the evolution of a person works in most cases? yes, I guess it would be up to the wisdom of the gay couple to decide if they should kiss in public eh? I'm not saying gay marriage couples wouldn't have a lot more rescrictions about raising there kids, but like I said, it sure beats kids growing up without ANY parents. People get teased for pretty much everything that people can target. Although I'm not saying its right to use this as an excuse, but a lot of kids are teased for many reasons and are able to shrug it off and they turn out fine. I think as long as the kid doesn't wear a shirt that says 'GAY PRIDE' in junior high - it really wouldn't be as big of an issue as you make it out to be. Well hell some kids go nuts (columbine) And they probably had straight parents, now imagine what a child would go through in our society today if his parents were gay and not to mention every gay couple won't be spectacular parents. Personally the teen suicide rate will go up because those kids will not be ready for the society we live in today.
"personally the teen suicide rate will go up". Personally? As in your person? As in ur own suicide rate will go up? Or do u mean 'personally, i think'.
Well, sir, what u 'personally think' is flawed. U say that my kid will not be ready for society because i am gay. I argue that my kid will be more equipped to handle society *because* i am gay. I will teach him that people will blindly hate, and that u must defend yourself against such people, but not hate them. I will teach that there are people who surf forums and talk out of their ass without using their brain, but that you can ignore these people. I will teach that u can be stronger than any hate directed towards you, and that u will be better for it.
You condemn me for the effects that my sexuality will have on my kid. i condemn you for encouraging those effects by perceiving them in the first place.
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On March 05 2004 14:16 Teroru wrote:
in the form of insight and sheer presence? Yeah, thats true. And a professor of philosophy and a professor of physics will by far be able to provide more insight than a garbage man and a welfare mom. Heterosexuals do *not* have more insight than a homosexual simply because of their sexuality. They *may have more insight; but this is because of their experiences in life and what they can share, not because they are attracted to the same sex.
lets take a gay couple for example. lets say they adopt a girl. that girl one day has her first period. being that she only has male parents there wont be anyone close to her that knows what she is going through. noone that can truly understand her. sure a gynaecologist could but its not the same as talking about it with her mom is it? and thats just one example there are numerous others.
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On March 05 2004 02:19 Beyonder wrote:
Perhaps, but what you must realise (which Baal said too) is that what you mention isn't the only way to make it widely accepted. There are other ways, positive propoganda - you name it. These do not effect a shit load of kids in a negative way.
But sure, at one point this will be a point - but this should be later, after the world is more ready. I would not 'take a child' during the first stages, but that is just because of my morals, values, and experiences.
This is where i believe the arguement is horribly wrong. People think that its about gays getting equal rights. Its not. It's about homosexuality not being reason enough for us not to be equal in rights. The lot of you think that because of my sexuality i am ill-suited to be a parent. But you guys do not know me. Your judging my ability to be a parent based solely on something that is not related to parenting. You guys take away my right and then hold it against me.
I have never done any harm to any of you. I have not proven myself to be a bad parent. On the contrary. Time after time on this forum i have responded to hate with logic. I keep cool despite the rampant homophobia present in life. I have proven that i can take your shit, accept it, and move on. I, like many many other homosexuals, have shown the world that despite your fear and hate, we *can* survive, *can* be happy, and i now argue that despite you injustices and prejudices, we can be * damn * good parents.
So fuck you.
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On March 05 2004 02:28 Powerpill wrote:
Gay marriage is no problem in my book, it doesn't harm anyone. However, gay couples adopting children is a BIG nono..I'm sure there may be certain situations where it would be alright(such as no m/f couples will adopt them, and the kid is over 10yrs old)..but not many.
Why is it a big nono? by nono, im going to assume u mean 'bad' or 'wrong'.
So, tell me sir, what *specifically* about my parenting skills is bad or wrong. Tell me.
Well?
Wait, do u even know my parenting skills? i see.. So these skills (that u do not know) are bad because? Oh, you don't know that either...
well then. im glad we've concluded that u dont know a whole lot about much at all.
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On March 05 2004 02:37 rplant wrote:
Beyonder, are you just shamelessly plagiarizing or what? That same bit has been posted all over the place and is months old.
samelessly plagiarizing??
He provides a good arguement with no intent to take credit for that arguement, and u accuse him of plaguerising?
Do u have a fucking brain?
I can't belive you people would believe this person who posted this bullshit to be more fit a parent than myself. This angers me.
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On March 05 2004 14:29 Teroru wrote:
I keep cool despite the rampant homophobia present in life.
So fuck you.
way to keep it cool
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On March 05 2004 02:38 DV8 wrote:
The reason being a man/woman couple raising a child tends to do better than any other situation.
Edit: You didn't think he did that just for the sake for keeping men and women together did you?
'tends to do better'.
How?
Define success as a parent before you claim that heterosexuals are better at it.
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On March 05 2004 02:41 rplant wrote:
Fags should be allowed to marry, but they shouldn't be allowed to adopt kids. I don't know how to justify this, but man, I'd be fucking pissed if my parents were two homos. That's my justification.
and if i were a parent, i'd be fucking pissed if my child was a homophobic prick such as yourself.
I would say we're even, but we're not. You said you'd be pissed off if ur parents were homosexual. I'm pissed off that your *real* parents lack the ability to teach their son tolerance, accpetance, and morals. Thats *my* fucking justification.
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very nicely worded teroru. It is a very valid personal explanation of exactly the same point that Drone brought up.
your kind of losing your cool now though
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On March 05 2004 02:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:
The REAL argument against gay marriage is one that Beyonder never mentioned, though he came close.
It perverts the institution of marriage, and here's why: marriage has a religious foundation. You get married to your partner in the eyes of God. However, God does not approve of homosexual relationships. Therefore He will not allow them to be married. As such, any marriage between two gay people is void. So, they must resort to being joined in a civil union by a justice of the peace. Many atheists choose this route because they don't want to have to partake in a religious ceremony, and that is the only option for gays. I don't have a problem with gays joined in civil unions, just as long as they aren't married. They are NOT the same thing.
I know I'm going to get a lot of flak from anti-religious infidels who supposedly want equal rights for gays, but hey I don't make the rules. It has nothing to do with equal rights, and everything to do with perverting the institution of marriage in the way I described.
i won't waste much time on you. You blindly follow a religion that preaches hate and discrimination.
Your right, marriage was once, at one time, about religion. That was a big oops. Don't set us back in the times for fixing that mistake.
You condemn me because of your religion. I, in turn, believe i have the right to condemn that dogma you believe in.
Marriage is not about Christianity. Whether you agree with me or not is irrelevant. By law, i am correct. So fuck your religion, and fuck your god while ur at it.
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EPT
