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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On February 23 2010 06:03 Oddysay wrote: blizzard will kill the e-sports if they dont stop about license . i know you guy are fanboy and love blizzard but what they are doing right now = just wrong . I agree. | ||
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TArujo
Portugal1687 Posts
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
On February 23 2010 06:03 Oddysay wrote: blizzard will kill the e-sports if they dont stop about license . i know you guy are fanboy and love blizzard but what they are doing right now = just wrong . Explain to me why Brood War is around then because they have the same policy there. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On February 23 2010 06:32 Eury wrote: Explain to me why Brood War is around then because they have the same policy there. yay it is not like if there are/were plenty of broodwar tourneys without licensing... Also gl explaining how Iccup is legal  | ||
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
On February 23 2010 06:34 Boblion wrote: yay it is not like if there are/were plenty of broodwar tourneys without licensing... Also gl explaining how Iccup is legal Ok, explain to me then how TSL exist. | ||
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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On February 23 2010 06:32 TArujo wrote: Because asking a fee to run a game that took them maybe 10 years to make is unreasonable, come on they have been doing this for wc3 and they dont want to do the same mystake they did in the battle versus Kespa Do they not get paid when they sell their product? What about long term research and development? Should we grant everything that takes 5+ years to produce de-facto complete ownership over their product? If this was the case, then we would never own anything, only be leasing or renting everything. As for me, I'd rather not be a feudal serf. When I buy SCII I expect to have complete ownership over my property. If Blizzard makes it explicit that those who purchase SCII will not own the game, then I may just have to think twice about "purchasing" it. | ||
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Gedrah
465 Posts
I also agree that ideas are meant to spread and empower people with intelligence and wisdom, but the fact is that we have a society where you must make money to stay alive and part of that process is preventing other people from putting you out of business by using your ideas to enter business and compete against you. We are all in competition with one another--for money--and that's completely fundamental in an economy. The one problem arises because "Blizzard" is not a person. It's an entity, and many many people work together to create the many ideas that become "SC2" but "Blizzard" is the only one who owns those ideas or is allowed to profit from them. This means that employees of Blizzard aren't guaranteed to get payed a fair amount for their work and contribution to Blizzard's products. However, that's their decision to contribute and they gay a paycheck. I can see how you dislike the idea of IP, since the idea of owning knowledge is contrary to the beneficial process of spreading knowledge and empowering people with intelligence. But that's fundamental to our way of life. That's why we have words like Rube and Mark and Fish. An economy, like a poker game, is a zero-sum system where we compete for one another's money and using a knowledge advantage over others is the main way people earn money at all. I know how to paint houses and you don't, but if you pay me I'll paint yours. You're just a rube that didn't make SC2, Blizzard made SC2 and since you couldn't do it yourself they're willing to let you play it in exchange for buying a license. Am I wrong? Is this wrong of them? I'm asking this for reals. In plain English, your own please, I'm not following your links ever again after the last tax protest thread, please tell me why this is wrong as I am genuinely curious what you think. | ||
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
Answer my question first please. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
someone done posted they had to get a license for TSL.. | ||
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Gedrah
465 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
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Manbear
Canada306 Posts
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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On February 23 2010 06:38 Gedrah wrote: Rothbardian, I think you are too exclusively opposed to anyone doing anything that gives them power over you. I agree that IP can and has been used for nefarious purposes but that doesn't mean the entire concept is evil, and you're being unrealistic if you think it's going away entirely without major constitutional amendments which provide protections that preclude such practices. I also agree that ideas are meant to spread and empower people with intelligence and wisdom, but the fact is that we have a society where you must make money to stay alive and part of that process is preventing other people from putting you out of business by using your ideas to enter business and compete against you. We are all in competition with one another--for money--and that's completely fundamental in an economy. The one problem arises because "Blizzard" is not a person. It's an entity, and many many people work together to create the many ideas that become "SC2" but "Blizzard" is the only one who owns those ideas or is allowed to profit from them. This means that employees of Blizzard aren't guaranteed to get payed a fair amount for their work and contribution to Blizzard's products. However, that's their decision to contribute and they gay a paycheck. I can see how you dislike the idea of IP, since the idea of owning knowledge is contrary to the beneficial process of spreading knowledge and empowering people with intelligence. But that's fundamental to our way of life. That's why we have words like Rube and Mark and Fish. An economy, like a poker game, is a zero-sum system where we compete for one another's money and using a knowledge advantage over others is the main way people earn money at all. I know how to paint houses and you don't, but if you pay me I'll paint yours. You're just a rube that didn't make SC2, Blizzard made SC2 and since you couldn't do it yourself they're willing to let you play it in exchange for buying a license. Am I wrong? Is this wrong of them? I'm asking this for reals. In plain English, your own please, I'm not following your links ever again after the last tax protest thread, please tell me why this is wrong as I am genuinely curious what you think. Bolded. Wrong. In a voluntary exchange both parties end up better than they were going into the trade. This is a priori. I'm tired of seeing this fallacy perpetuated. As for why I don't like IP? I'm both morally and utility-driven against IP. For one, IP raises the cost of all products due to the sheer size of bureaucracy involved to keep track of the thousands and thousands and thousands of patents, copyrights, trademarks, etc. It also costs companies to employ lawyers for the specific purpose of IP, not to mention all the court fees involved (Which, come from the Taxpayer). As for the moral argument which I believe is much stronger, is that one cannot own an idea. An idea is an abstract principle. It is not a scarce physical good. You cannot tell me what I can or cannot think. Similarly, you cannot tell me what I can or cannot do with my own property. IP and Private Property are antithetical terms. Moreover, IP does not contribute to increased innovation. If this was the case, then we should be handing out monopolies left and right, since that is what IP is. I'm an anti-monopolist, pro-private property, pro-Natural Law. I'm not opposed per se, to what Blizzard is doing; I'm opposed because they do not make it well known, and you sign no contract upon "purchasing" the license. I gave the link where Kinsella describes his position on EULA, TOS, Fine Print, etc. I happen to agree with his analysis. | ||
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StarsPride
United States364 Posts
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
Iccup isn't legal, I'm glad that those assholes will have a harder time in SC 2. They not only allow piracy, they encourage it. Hosting warez and what not. But you see most serious communities that are based in the civilized world follow laws and regulations, for an example Team Liquid. And they had no issues applying for licenses in BW so I don't see how it will be any different in SC 2. Blizzard isn't dumb, they are not going to go after community run tournaments and charge them. They want to have their cut when it comes to organizations like KeSPA that profit millions each year on their product. | ||
p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
There's absolutely nothing in the OP that is shocking/indicating Blizzard is going to come down with an iron fist here - they're just inquiring for information. It's not like Blizzard has shut Zotac down and said "NO YOU CAN'T!" in fact its just Zotac got hasty and announced/scheduled the cup before they should have (considering they hadn't secured the license yet). | ||
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Manbear
Canada306 Posts
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
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Gedrah
465 Posts
On February 23 2010 06:49 Rothbardian wrote: Bolded. Wrong. In a voluntary exchange both parties end up better than they were going into the trade. This is a priori. I'm tired of seeing this fallacy perpetuated. As for why I don't like IP? I'm both morally and utility-driven against IP. For one, IP raises the cost of all products due to the sheer size of bureaucracy involved to keep track of the thousands and thousands and thousands of patents, copyrights, trademarks, etc. It also costs companies to employ lawyers for the specific purpose of IP, not to mention all the court fees involved (Which, come from the Taxpayer). As for the moral argument which I believe is much stronger, is that one cannot own an idea. An idea is an abstract principle. It is not a scarce physical good. You cannot tell me what I can or cannot think. Similarly, you cannot tell me what I can or cannot do with my own property. IP and Private Property are antithetical terms. Moreover, IP does not contribute to increased innovation. If this was the case, then we should be handing out monopolies left and right, since that is what IP is. I'm an anti-monopolist, pro-private property, pro-Natural Law. I'm not opposed per se, to what Blizzard is doing; I'm opposed because they do not make it well known, and you sign no contract upon "purchasing" the license. I gave the link where Kinsella describes his position on EULA, TOS, Fine Print, etc. I happen to agree with his analysis. IP raises the cost of products while employing tons and tons of people who work to enforce the system of IP. Without this system, wouldn't we simply have a WHOLE LOT more unemployment? I agree with your various moral objections to IP but it does generate jobs and I don't think getting rid of IP would generate more jobs. Or would it? Basically, I want to know how you think the world would be a factually better place without IP. And I don't just mean in terms of how it would be harder for people to screw each other over with various deceptions. I mean, since we have an economic system where people must prove their worth by earning money BEFORE WE ARE WILLING TO FEED THEM, how does eliminating IP allow more people to successfully live their lives? Because I can already see how the existence of IP centralized the power to perform certain kinds of work and thus reduces the number of people that can work in the system, but I can't see how eliminating IP will result in net social improvements. I definitely see your opposition now and I tend to agree that the whole thing is a kludge that slows down all sorts of positive natural processes in a society, but you must realize what an Atlas situation we're in. A whole, whole, whole, whole, whole lot of people depend on various aspects of the big, heavy, interweaved system in order to make the money that feeds their families. Sudden and destructive changes like this are exactly what we taxpayers spent $800,000,000,000 to prevent in 2008 (even though we didn't want to). This is why I ask you how your change will effect positive change to the system without "casualties" or "collateral damage". | ||
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