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On August 15 2009 23:57 Foucault wrote:
I have no idea where you think that I said it works 100% of the time, man.
He didn't fend off anything. A second wave of lings was everything Jaedong needed. Fantasy had like what, 1 marine in the bunker? Good luck defending that against a horde of early lings.
As soon as Jaedongs lings entered Fantasy's main, the game was pretty much over. I have no idea why Fantasy didn't build a second barracks/e-bay or whatever in the unfinished wall in an attempt to block off the zerglings
Ever... gotten bunker rushed with 5+ SCVs? Ever tried attacking a bunker with 1 marine in it using like 16 lings and 4 drones with 6 SCVs repairing it? You'd be surprised. All he needed to do was to repair.
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The only reason Fantasy lost in the third game was because he wasn't being careful enough. Jaedong pretty much did the only thing he could do to win the game with a 4pool.
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I miss this time:
Needs a come back like that. Go Jaedong! 3-0 against MS!
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On August 16 2009 02:36 GoSu wrote:I miss this time: Needs a come back like that. Go Jaedong! 3-0 against MS!
I remember those matches. Vs Sparkyz, I couldn't believe my eyes that JD was actually doing a reverse All-Kill and ended it by destroying Leta. And vs Flash on Rush Hour 3.. that match was speechless. Both side played spectacular but JD came out on top in that match. JD was in God mode during WL.
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On August 15 2009 14:08 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 12:59 Harem wrote:On August 15 2009 12:21 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 15 2009 10:43 konadora wrote:
Wtf game 4
Fantasy is so unlucky rofl Game 4 was not "unlucky", just very bad. + Show Spoiler +His building placement was just plain horrendous. Anyone going 9 pool would have won against him with that build, even a D+ ICCUP player. I have no clue what he was thinking. He was unlucky because of his spawn location. Which would still make it his fault for going for the wall? Not sure what you're implying. Are you saying he shouldn't have walled in? And just let lings run amok inside his base. Fantasy was going to use the fast-Factory OP. He had no choice BUT to wall in. He just happened to spawn at a location where his wall in is perfectly countered by 9 pool. There is such a thing as luck in SC, you know.
You do realize that Terrans can not wall-in and still easily defend from ling rushes right? 9 pool speed? No problem, just make sure to construct a good simcity in your base
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Question about the ling surround on the factory: Can't you rally point upwards and immediately lift the factory to get your first vulture out safe? I think he might have been able to lift his cc to get a repair on the bunker in game 3 too, but it might've been too late anyway.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
If he lifted the factory he was dead. Speedlings would have streamed through and wreck the entire economy.
Sure Fantasy would have had to be a God to lift factory -> get vulture behind scvs -> micro 1 damaged vultrue and scvs vs 10-12 speedlings.
It was his only chance though.
In game 3, Jaedong said himself he had 1 oppurtunity to seal the win. The fact that he capitulized on that 1 split second window of opportunity makes him a genius, not the actual 4 pool. How many other zergs would have won that game using a 4 pool? Not many.
This is what starcraft legends do; they create that split second window of opportunity and drive a screw right through it.
Jaedong you the man.
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On August 16 2009 06:13 sdvc wrote:
Question about the ling surround on the factory: Can't you rally point upwards and immediately lift the factory to get your first vulture out safe? I think he might have been able to lift his cc to get a repair on the bunker in game 3 too, but it might've been too late anyway.
game 4 fantasy was fucked either way, vults without speed upgrade cant kill speedlings
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On August 16 2009 01:07 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2009 01:01 Ota Solgryn wrote:On August 15 2009 23:57 Foucault wrote:
I have no idea where you think that I said it works 100% of the time, man.
He didn't fend off anything. A second wave of lings was everything Jaedong needed. Fantasy had like what, 1 marine in the bunker? Good luck defending that against a horde of early lings.
As soon as Jaedongs lings entered Fantasy's main, the game was pretty much over. I have no idea why Fantasy didn't build a second barracks/e-bay or whatever in the unfinished wall in an attempt to block off the zerglings
Ok. seems like you dont get it. Im zerg, and Ive had a period where I 4pooled on iccup to try it out because I was sick of getting 8 raxed/bunkerrushed. What I found out was that most terrans defended it pretty easily to the point where fantasy defended it, and then it was impossible to win, because of sim city, even with an extra wave of lings. Because there was 2 marines in the bunker and sim city + mass repair = lings dead. Now what JD did was genious. He ran around with his initial lings as if he had stopped making lings and started macroing drones. Fantasy fell for it and stacked his scvs everytime jd tried to pick some off. Then JD made a timing attack juts before the factory would finish, and made a fake as if he would pick off more scv's. Fantasy stacked and at the exact same time JDs second wave came in. The genious part was that he used the initial lings to get around the sim city, and attacked AND blocked any scv's trying to repair the bunker. This was SO smart done by JD and it really shows why he is so succesful at being so aggresive. He always makes his opponents make wrong decisions. Yeah, truly genious.
This is less egregious than the crap you spouted about a D+ player being able to beat Fantasy with 4-pool.
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On August 16 2009 07:34 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2009 06:13 sdvc wrote:
Question about the ling surround on the factory: Can't you rally point upwards and immediately lift the factory to get your first vulture out safe? I think he might have been able to lift his cc to get a repair on the bunker in game 3 too, but it might've been too late anyway. game 4 fantasy was fucked either way, vults without speed upgrade cant kill speedlings
Actually, it's a lot easier to micro non-upped vults vs lings than it is with speed vults.
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On August 16 2009 08:17 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2009 07:34 iamho wrote:On August 16 2009 06:13 sdvc wrote:
Question about the ling surround on the factory: Can't you rally point upwards and immediately lift the factory to get your first vulture out safe? I think he might have been able to lift his cc to get a repair on the bunker in game 3 too, but it might've been too late anyway. game 4 fantasy was fucked either way, vults without speed upgrade cant kill speedlings Actually, it's a lot easier to micro non-upped vults vs lings than it is with speed vults.
Against zerglings without speed, sure, but speedlings are faster than vults without speed.
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Sweden95 Posts
I can't describe how happy I am having Jaedong winning over Fantasy...
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On August 15 2009 23:14 Foucault wrote:
4-pool is just building a spawning pool, hatch zerglings and run them in your opponents base. Even a D+ player with decent micro could pull this off against Fantasy at this point. It's not like he's invisible, and every pro is just mortal when they only have workers available as fighting units.
Wow yeah any D+ player can 4 pool fantasy and win.
On August 16 2009 01:07 Foucault wrote:
Yeah, truly genious.
yeah ignore entire arguments against your extremely faulty and illogical posts and instead respond by talking about spelling
edit: This post is severely lacking any substance but honestly what more can you say after that first quote
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Hmm... I'm actually curious what would have happened in the last game if fantasy had simply built a 2nd barracks inside his base instead of 2 failed vultures. He had 150 minerals at one point early on in the ling attack.
If Fantasy had been able to repel the attack with marines built from a 2nd barracks inside his base, I don't think Jaedong would have been in much of a lead, considering the lack of drones and fantasy's obvious ramp up to vultures.
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The rax would have been too slow to get out marines. There was just no way Fantasy's wall wasn't going to get broken by then.
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On August 16 2009 03:26 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 14:08 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:59 Harem wrote:On August 15 2009 12:21 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 15 2009 10:43 konadora wrote:
Wtf game 4
Fantasy is so unlucky rofl Game 4 was not "unlucky", just very bad. + Show Spoiler +His building placement was just plain horrendous. Anyone going 9 pool would have won against him with that build, even a D+ ICCUP player. I have no clue what he was thinking. He was unlucky because of his spawn location. Which would still make it his fault for going for the wall? Not sure what you're implying. Are you saying he shouldn't have walled in? And just let lings run amok inside his base. Fantasy was going to use the fast-Factory OP. He had no choice BUT to wall in. He just happened to spawn at a location where his wall in is perfectly countered by 9 pool. There is such a thing as luck in SC, you know. You do realize that Terrans can not wall-in and still easily defend from ling rushes right? 9 pool speed? No problem, just make sure to construct a good simcity in your base
While going mech with early gas and early factory?
There's a reason why terrans wall-in TvZ 99% of the time when going mech.
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I don't understand why Fantasy chose a build that is going to fail from time to time just based on spawn location. I mean when you think about it, if you're sitting there planning out your build on RotK, and you go "hm, if I spawn in the top right, or bottom right, that means that there's a 50% chance my wall-in will be spawning units outside my wall" (correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't know if it's the same on the bottom right, it looks like it because it's facing south also but I'm not sure) And then after knowing that, being like "well, if that 50% chance doesn't land in my favor, then I have a 35-40% chance (roughly) that jaedong will open early aggression, and if that doesn't land in my favor either, I'm basically fucked."
While you can argue that it was a more than 50% chance to succeed, I honestly don't understand why he would take such a huge risk rather than just opting for something that's a lot more safe in terms of % chance to fail on a map. And even if he did decide to use that build, he should have at least come up with some other build he would use as a backup plan if he did indeed spawn in the location that he spawned in, rather than going through with his original plan and essentially gambling a 35-40% chance to auto-lose, and only a 60-65% chance to not auto lose, and then play a standard game which he may or may not win in the first place.
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On August 16 2009 08:17 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2009 07:34 iamho wrote:On August 16 2009 06:13 sdvc wrote:
Question about the ling surround on the factory: Can't you rally point upwards and immediately lift the factory to get your first vulture out safe? I think he might have been able to lift his cc to get a repair on the bunker in game 3 too, but it might've been too late anyway. game 4 fantasy was fucked either way, vults without speed upgrade cant kill speedlings Actually, it's a lot easier to micro non-upped vults vs lings than it is with speed vults.
Not if the lings have speed. Speedlings kill unupgraded vultures with abandon.
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On August 16 2009 10:36 koreasilver wrote:
The rax would have been too slow to get out marines. There was just no way Fantasy's wall wasn't going to get broken by then.
I don't know...the time between when Fantasy built that first vulture when he instead could have built a 2nd rax, and the time when his wall finally came down, was very long (edit: 1 minute and 15 seconds to be exact).
I think it would've been close enough to make it difficult to predict. Certainly it would've been more interesting than what actually transpired.
I'm curious though how long it officially takes a rax and marine to be built. I want to measure it against the VOD.
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It's only an issue with 4pool, I believe the timing of a 9pool wouldn't be fast enough to stop a marine going behind the wall after a barracks lift.
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