EPTfantasy... he still aint no second flash... thats all i have to say
[OSL] Bacchus OSL Semi-Final B - fantasy vs Jaedong - Page…
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Heimatloser
Germany1494 Posts
fantasy... he still aint no second flash... thats all i have to say | ||
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Alsar
United States130 Posts
On August 15 2009 19:14 baubo wrote: It doesn't fail against lings. It fails against NINE POOL lings not in cross positions. If any of the following had happened, the wall-in would've succeeded. 1. Jaedong opt for overpool or 12 hatch. Both of which are more standard ZvT play than 9 pool. 2. Fantasy not spawning at 2 o'clock. 3. Spawn locations are at cross positions The marine came out right when the lings arrived. If the lings arrived even a few seconds later, the marine would've been inside and Jaedong's build would've failed. I don't know why people has to disregard Fantasy just for the sake of pumping Jaedong up. 1. 9 pool is an incredibly standard opening, though yes it is more rare than 12 hatch and gives a slightly worse starting economy for the sake of early aggression. 2. When fantasy did spawn at 2 o'clock and still decided to go through with his build, he was basically making the decision to have a 50% (roughly) chance to automatically lose. That's kind of silly thinking when he could have just done something else and had a way higher chance of winning then. 3. Again, a pretty big chance of then not spawning at cross positions, which is why I don't understand fantasy's logic of still going through with the build. Also Jaedong's build wouldn't have "failed", because 9 pool is a completely standard opening and he would have followed up with mutas or hydras or whatever he was going to do. Once he saw fantasy's wall and knew the units were going to be on the outside however, was when he made the decision to pump lings rather than continue to play standard. If the marine did pop out and get behind the wall and jaedong knew he couldn't win with ling pressure, he would have immediately stopped pumping lings and went straight into a completely regular build. Not trying to start anything or specifically call out the person I quoted, but I just felt the need to post that stuff because it's really confusing that so many people are being like "omg if jaedong's 9 pool failed with his lings, he would have been fucked!" when 9 pool is a ridiculously standard build to open with. D: Especially with the amount that fantasy has opened with proxy barracks's in the past against jaedong, I'd call it a pretty safe opening. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On August 15 2009 07:45 AzureEye wrote: "A lot of people" who say this turn out to be mostly Terrans. Would you rather watch an action-packed, micro-fest 10 minute game or would you rather watch a 30 minute game with slowwwww tanks that take forever to siege and re-locate with multiple bases and macro macro The latter obviously. TvT involves chess-like strategy and can be extremely amusing to watch. ZvZ on the other hand has to be the most repetitive matchup in Starcraft, where every game is almost the same. Also, Terrans use more units in a typical TvT than zergs do in a ZvZ. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On August 15 2009 12:21 baubo wrote: He was unlucky because of his spawn location. Yeah but it was stupid of him to make that build, knowing his starting location. Everone knows the units pop out down from the fac/rax. I facepalmed hard when I noticed what was about to happen, and asked myself why on earth he would make this wall instead of a normal wall-in. I guess Jaedongs 4-pool (...) in game 3 made Fantasy a bit shaky. Seriously though, 4 pool has to be the build/cheese in Starcraft that requires the least amount of skill. Jaedong knows that it's hard to make a good wall in on this map, and besides Fantasy's wall-in won't be anywhere near complete against 4-pool. 4-pool is just building a spawning pool, hatch zerglings and run them in your opponents base. Even a D+ player with decent micro could pull this off against Fantasy at this point. It's not like he's invisible, and every pro is just mortal when they only have workers available as fighting units. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On August 15 2009 14:32 baubo wrote: I guess you don't play the game much. Because if you did, you'd know that there is no such thing as a "perfectly safe" opening. All builds carry risks. All builds have counter builds. To berate Fantasy for using a build that isn't 100% safe is indeed ludicrous. If you do that, you might as well berate every single SC build that ever existed. What are you talking about? A wall-in is a very low risk opening against a zerg. A stupid wall-in like Fantasy's suddenly, is a possible high risk opening, thus making these builds very different from each other. This is not about wall-in being risky, but Fantasy's wall in being built in a stupid way when he KNEW that his units would pop out the "wrong" way. | ||
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JohnBall
Brazil1272 Posts
Anyway, if Fantasy had not walled in that way, Jaedong would have found another way to wreak his game. Botton line is, I think, Fantasy is an escellent sniper for single games. Maybe he is the perfect sniper, featuring a veritable arsenal of unorthodox builds and very good mechanincs to transition into from his unorthodox oppenings. In a series, however, he gets very easily countered by smart opponents. Once he is put out of his comfort zone, Fantasy seems to have a hard time surviving. Jaedong is certainly his mechanical and strategical match, but way stronger in a series of games given that weak spot of Fantasy. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
On August 15 2009 23:14 Foucault wrote: Yeah but it was stupid of him to make that build, knowing his starting location. Everone knows the units pop out down from the fac/rax. I facepalmed hard when I noticed what was about to happen, and asked myself why on earth he would make this wall instead of a normal wall-in. I guess Jaedongs 4-pool (...) in game 3 made Fantasy a bit shaky. Seriously though, 4 pool has to be the build/cheese in Starcraft that requires the least amount of skill. Jaedong knows that it's hard to make a good wall in on this map, and besides Fantasy's wall-in won't be anywhere near complete against 4-pool. 4-pool is just building a spawning pool, hatch zerglings and run them in your opponents base. Even a D+ player with decent micro could pull this off against Fantasy at this point. It's not like he's invisible, and every pro is just mortal when they only have workers available as fighting units. Are you serious? 4 pool works 100% of the time? Try 4 pooling on iccup. Yeah, you'll win some, but you will lose others horribly. I am D+ with decent micro and I guarantee you fantasy would have out-microed me and beat me easily. Fantasy even fended it off, he just wasn't expecting the second wave. I don't see how it's much different from any other cheese, including fantasy's Neo Medusa cheese (which boxer and fantasy even said that anyone could pull off), except that it's even easier to scout. | ||
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Delerium
United States324 Posts
On August 14 2009 19:16 Oxygen wrote: This is all part of the plan. this was posted right after game 1 (fantasy > ljd on HBR) here's a demonstration of my fanboyism: is it possible that jaedong wasn't too concerned about losing HBR because he knew it favored T over Z, and felt confident about outsider, since it conversely favors Z over T? I'm sure he tried to win HBR, but it didn't look like he wanted to tire himself out..... ....or, he didn't mind, even wanted to appear weak. Because he had practiced and figured out that TvZ Mech is weak... when? during the early game, as we saw. As someone commented to me on vent, TvZ Mech takes forever to get going. So JD was planning cheese (9-pool/4-pool), and he knew that his performance in games 1 and 2 would leave Fantasy suspecting nothing. In the same way that LJD knew it wasn't a big deal to lose HBR because of its T>Z race imbalance, he also knew Fantasy wouldn't be too bothered losing Outsider because of its Z>T race imbalance. As Oxygen wrote, it could have been all part of a plan. The 4-pool on Holy World was LJD's answer to Fantasy's wall-fake on Medusa. Both games were over before they even started. During the Batoo OSL finals, it looked like Jaedong figured out halfway through the series that Fantasy sucks against 2 hatch. Then Fantasy went home to the T1 house furious and schemed, and figured out how to ruin JD.... it's been pointed out that Fantasy hasn't lost to JD since Batoo... until now. JD may have gone home in much the same way and figured out where TvZ mech is weak, and now we're back to square 1. Thoughts? edit: fixed map name | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
He didn't fend off anything. A second wave of lings was everything Jaedong needed. Fantasy had like what, 1 marine in the bunker? Good luck defending that against a horde of early lings. As soon as Jaedongs lings entered Fantasy's main, the game was pretty much over. I have no idea why Fantasy didn't build a second barracks/e-bay or whatever in the unfinished wall in an attempt to block off the zerglings | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On August 15 2009 23:57 Foucault wrote: I have no idea where you think that I said it works 100% of the time, man. He didn't fend off anything. A second wave of lings was everything Jaedong needed. Fantasy had like what, 1 marine in the bunker? Good luck defending that against a horde of early lings. As soon as Jaedongs lings entered Fantasy's main, the game was pretty much over. I have no idea why Fantasy didn't build a second barracks/e-bay or whatever in the unfinished wall in an attempt to block off the zerglings Ok. seems like you dont get it. Im zerg, and Ive had a period where I 4pooled on iccup to try it out because I was sick of getting 8 raxed/bunkerrushed. What I found out was that most terrans defended it pretty easily to the point where fantasy defended it, and then it was impossible to win, because of sim city, even with an extra wave of lings. Because there was 2 marines in the bunker and sim city + mass repair = lings dead. Now what JD did was genious. He ran around with his initial lings as if he had stopped making lings and started macroing drones. Fantasy fell for it and stacked his scvs everytime jd tried to pick some off. Then JD made a timing attack juts before the factory would finish, and made a fake as if he would pick off more scv's. Fantasy stacked and at the exact same time JDs second wave came in. The genious part was that he used the initial lings to get around the sim city, and attacked AND blocked any scv's trying to repair the bunker. This was SO smart done by JD and it really shows why he is so succesful at being so aggresive. He always makes his opponents make wrong decisions. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On August 16 2009 01:01 Ota Solgryn wrote: Ok. seems like you dont get it. Im zerg, and Ive had a period where I 4pooled on iccup to try it out because I was sick of getting 8 raxed/bunkerrushed. What I found out was that most terrans defended it pretty easily to the point where fantasy defended it, and then it was impossible to win, because of sim city, even with an extra wave of lings. Because there was 2 marines in the bunker and sim city + mass repair = lings dead. Now what JD did was genious. He ran around with his initial lings as if he had stopped making lings and started macroing drones. Fantasy fell for it and stacked his scvs everytime jd tried to pick some off. Then JD made a timing attack juts before the factory would finish, and made a fake as if he would pick off more scv's. Fantasy stacked and at the exact same time JDs second wave came in. The genious part was that he used the initial lings to get around the sim city, and attacked AND blocked any scv's trying to repair the bunker. This was SO smart done by JD and it really shows why he is so succesful at being so aggresive. He always makes his opponents make wrong decisions. Yeah, truly genious. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On August 15 2009 22:55 Foucault wrote: The latter obviously. TvT involves chess-like strategy and can be extremely amusing to watch. ZvZ on the other hand has to be the most repetitive matchup in Starcraft, where every game is almost the same. Also, Terrans use more units in a typical TvT than zergs do in a ZvZ. This. Unless someone decides to go 12hatch -> mass spores, ZvZ is more like rock-paper-scissors with some micro. If Hyuk can beat Jaedong, you better believe ZvZ isn't all about who the better player is. TvT is much more "strategically exciting" - especially once they get le battlecruisers. lol. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
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Mania[K]al
United States359 Posts
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GoSu
Korea (South)1773 Posts
On August 16 2009 02:08 Mania[K]al wrote: Sad day when JD wins. I guess you were happy during PL final... | ||
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
On August 15 2009 23:57 Foucault wrote: I have no idea where you think that I said it works 100% of the time, man. He didn't fend off anything. A second wave of lings was everything Jaedong needed. Fantasy had like what, 1 marine in the bunker? Good luck defending that against a horde of early lings. As soon as Jaedongs lings entered Fantasy's main, the game was pretty much over. I have no idea why Fantasy didn't build a second barracks/e-bay or whatever in the unfinished wall in an attempt to block off the zerglings Here. 4-pool is just building a spawning pool, hatch zerglings and run them in your opponents base. Even a D+ player with decent micro could pull this off against Fantasy at this point. It's not like he's invisible, and every pro is just mortal when they only have workers available as fighting units. Basically you're saying that if your lings get in the opponent's base it's game over and even a D+ player could win which is so far from the truth it's not even funny. SCVs have far more HP than lings and do the same amount of damage, and the opponent is going to have more SCVs than you have Zerglings. Now, of course lings attack faster, but even still, SCVs are fully capable of killing Zerglings. Now throw a marine into the mix. The marine is going to be protected by the SCVs at all costs. So it takes a lot of micro and split-second decision making to know what to attack and when or all of your lings may die while trying to get to the marine. I don't see how this is much easier than other cheeses. Bunker rush? Proxy gateways? Yeah, those take so much more skill to do. | ||
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