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On August 15 2009 13:10 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 12:28 Neighbor wrote:
How was his building placement horrendous? It was a perfectly legitimate ling-proof wall. Fantasy just had the bad luck of spawning in the one position that would cause his rines/vultures to spawn right into the lings.
Of course if he hadn't canceled his first marine, he would have been able to get it safely to the other side before the lings got to his base. Fantasy's fault there. Which is why he maybe shouldn't have walled there because it would get you automatically screwed against lings. Also, his marine couldn't get through to the other side BECAUSE it was ling-proof, which made it marine-proof as well. Marines can only get through if it's zealot-proof but not ling-proof. He screwed himself by walling himself in like that.
I was talking about the marine that he was building before he put his factory down but canceled shortly after he started the factory. He would have had ample time to lift his barracks to let that marine through before the lings arrived.
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On August 15 2009 10:55 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 09:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:On August 15 2009 09:08 Hot_Bid wrote:On August 15 2009 08:42 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 15 2009 06:30 Foucault wrote:
How are all games crazy good?
Jaedong fucking cheesed the last 2 games, and I respect him even less now. I mean c'mon 4 pool and next game all in lings again and Fantasy made some weird wall and Jaedong got very lucky.
At least Jaedong knows how to be lame, whereas Fantasy probably would have won if the last games were straight up.
And yeah I'm kinda speaking in rage but still I think the last games were very lame. Typical ignorant T player. First off, T has the most cheesing capability out of any race, while Z has the least. Secondly, 9 pool speed is NOT cheese whatsoever. It's Fantasy's fault for building a shitty wall. JD just decided to go all-in and continue pumping Lings because he saw a window of opportunity. Thirdly, Fantasy cheesed his TWICE in the finals. Besides that, I think this proves that JD is definitely out of the slump he was going in to. You're blind if you didn't see the pure rage in his eyes - it looked like he was about ready to tear Fantasy's head off. He's back, he's pissed, and there is NO WAY that Yarnc is winning this final. With JD back and ready for vengeance, and the fact that this is the only thing he's practicing for, Yarnc should just huddle in a corner and cry in the fetal position and hope it ends quickly. errr Terran can 8 rax or bunker rush, i don't really consider a wraith build cheese Zerg has like a half dozen all-ins it can do in ZvT and ZvP, the strongest of which is just make a lot of speedlings and a-move, sometimes succeeding even if they scout it in PvT, Protoss can do a shitton different cheeses at the T while the Terran can only really SCV+marine rush and that only works vs 14nex (sometimes not even) so how can T possibly have the most "cheesing capability" Here's a fact, Terrans cheese more than zergs, assuming that we count 8rax-> bunker rush as a cheese. Why? 8 rax with only 1 or 2 scvs is the equivalent of a 9 pool, it can kill them if theyre not ready or they fuck up and even if it does no damage you're not at an unwinnable disadvantage, so if you dont think 9 pool is a cheese you cant say 8 rax is.
How does that have anything to do with what I posted?
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On August 15 2009 12:59 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 12:21 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 15 2009 10:43 konadora wrote:
Wtf game 4
Fantasy is so unlucky rofl Game 4 was not "unlucky", just very bad. + Show Spoiler +His building placement was just plain horrendous. Anyone going 9 pool would have won against him with that build, even a D+ ICCUP player. I have no clue what he was thinking. He was unlucky because of his spawn location. Which would still make it his fault for going for the wall?
Not sure what you're implying. Are you saying he shouldn't have walled in? And just let lings run amok inside his base. Fantasy was going to use the fast-Factory OP. He had no choice BUT to wall in. He just happened to spawn at a location where his wall in is perfectly countered by 9 pool.
There is such a thing as luck in SC, you know.
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On August 15 2009 14:08 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 12:59 Harem wrote:On August 15 2009 12:21 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 15 2009 10:43 konadora wrote:
Wtf game 4
Fantasy is so unlucky rofl Game 4 was not "unlucky", just very bad. + Show Spoiler +His building placement was just plain horrendous. Anyone going 9 pool would have won against him with that build, even a D+ ICCUP player. I have no clue what he was thinking. He was unlucky because of his spawn location. Which would still make it his fault for going for the wall? Not sure what you're implying. Are you saying he shouldn't have walled in? And just let lings run amok inside his base. Fantasy was going to use the fast-Factory OP. He had no choice BUT to wall in. He just happened to spawn at a location where his wall in is perfectly countered by 9 pool. There is such a thing as luck in SC, you know.
WTF? Luck had nothing to do with his loss. Why did he go for that strategy if it forced him to do that retarded wall in? He should've just used another strategy then.
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I'm pretty sure that before the series, he thought that the changes that he would get top-right AND JD going for early ling pressure would be worth the risk of the build he had planned.
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On August 15 2009 14:21 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 14:08 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:59 Harem wrote:On August 15 2009 12:21 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 15 2009 10:43 konadora wrote:
Wtf game 4
Fantasy is so unlucky rofl Game 4 was not "unlucky", just very bad. + Show Spoiler +His building placement was just plain horrendous. Anyone going 9 pool would have won against him with that build, even a D+ ICCUP player. I have no clue what he was thinking. He was unlucky because of his spawn location. Which would still make it his fault for going for the wall? Not sure what you're implying. Are you saying he shouldn't have walled in? And just let lings run amok inside his base. Fantasy was going to use the fast-Factory OP. He had no choice BUT to wall in. He just happened to spawn at a location where his wall in is perfectly countered by 9 pool. There is such a thing as luck in SC, you know. WTF? Luck had nothing to do with his loss. Why did he go for that strategy if it forced him to do that retarded wall in? He should've just used another strategy then.
I guess you don't play the game much. Because if you did, you'd know that there is no such thing as a "perfectly safe" opening. All builds carry risks. All builds have counter builds.
To berate Fantasy for using a build that isn't 100% safe is indeed ludicrous. If you do that, you might as well berate every single SC build that ever existed.
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Yeah... if you can't make a wall-in (or at least a good one), don't go for a fast factory. That is definitely fantasy's fault and luck had nothing to do with it.
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On August 15 2009 14:32 baubo wrote:
To berate Fantasy for using a build that isn't 100% safe is indeed ludicrous. If you do that, you might as well berate every single SC build that ever existed.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Iloveoov_Fake_Mech#Hard_Counters
No counter as of yet. :D
Besides, why would he wall with a Supply, Rax, Fac if all the units spawned on the outside?
If he went Supply Supply Rax or something, with Fac on the inside, he could've defended with vults...
Or just go sim-city which carried less risk than a wall where units spawn on the outside for lings to eat them up.
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On August 15 2009 14:27 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I'm pretty sure that before the series, he thought that the changes that he would get top-right AND JD going for early ling pressure would be worth the risk of the build he had planned.
Before the series this reasoning may be true, which might affect the strategies he practiced the most.
However, once the game started and he KNEW he had top right, it was a very poor choice to go with the one strat that guaranteed a loss if JD (or any amateur) goes for any sort of ling pressure. Its pretty rare to see such a clear loss / bad game due to a building placement. In a pretty important game...
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On August 15 2009 14:32 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 14:21 Holgerius wrote:On August 15 2009 14:08 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:59 Harem wrote:On August 15 2009 12:21 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 15 2009 10:43 konadora wrote:
Wtf game 4
Fantasy is so unlucky rofl Game 4 was not "unlucky", just very bad. + Show Spoiler +His building placement was just plain horrendous. Anyone going 9 pool would have won against him with that build, even a D+ ICCUP player. I have no clue what he was thinking. He was unlucky because of his spawn location. Which would still make it his fault for going for the wall? Not sure what you're implying. Are you saying he shouldn't have walled in? And just let lings run amok inside his base. Fantasy was going to use the fast-Factory OP. He had no choice BUT to wall in. He just happened to spawn at a location where his wall in is perfectly countered by 9 pool. There is such a thing as luck in SC, you know. WTF? Luck had nothing to do with his loss. Why did he go for that strategy if it forced him to do that retarded wall in? He should've just used another strategy then. I guess you don't play the game much. Because if you did, you'd know that there is no such thing as a "perfectly safe" opening. All builds carry risks. All builds have counter builds. To berate Fantasy for using a build that isn't 100% safe is indeed ludicrous. If you do that, you might as well berate every single SC build that ever existed.
Opting for a build that is autoloss against 9-pool is not a very smart move. 
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On August 15 2009 14:32 baubo wrote:
To berate Fantasy for using a build that isn't 100% safe is indeed ludicrous. If you do that, you might as well berate every single SC build that ever existed.
The point is not that he didn't choose a "100% safe" opening, it is that he chose a 100% failing opening vs. any ling pressure (not exactly rare). This throws away 50% of his chances right there, for no good reason: even if he did live, there is no guarantee he'd win; pretty bad gamble, no?
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On August 15 2009 14:40 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 14:27 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I'm pretty sure that before the series, he thought that the changes that he would get top-right AND JD going for early ling pressure would be worth the risk of the build he had planned. Before the series this reasoning may be true, which might affect the strategies he practiced the most. However, once the game started and he KNEW he had top right, it was a very poor choice to go with the one strat that guaranteed a loss if JD (or any amateur) goes for any sort of ling pressure. Its pretty rare to see such a clear loss / bad game due to a building placement. In a pretty important game...
But is he gonna spend timing preparing another strategy seeing how unlikely it was that he would spawn top right AND JD would go for an early pool?
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On August 15 2009 14:48 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 14:32 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 14:21 Holgerius wrote:On August 15 2009 14:08 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:59 Harem wrote:On August 15 2009 12:21 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 15 2009 10:43 konadora wrote:
Wtf game 4
Fantasy is so unlucky rofl Game 4 was not "unlucky", just very bad. + Show Spoiler +His building placement was just plain horrendous. Anyone going 9 pool would have won against him with that build, even a D+ ICCUP player. I have no clue what he was thinking. He was unlucky because of his spawn location. Which would still make it his fault for going for the wall? Not sure what you're implying. Are you saying he shouldn't have walled in? And just let lings run amok inside his base. Fantasy was going to use the fast-Factory OP. He had no choice BUT to wall in. He just happened to spawn at a location where his wall in is perfectly countered by 9 pool. There is such a thing as luck in SC, you know. WTF? Luck had nothing to do with his loss. Why did he go for that strategy if it forced him to do that retarded wall in? He should've just used another strategy then. I guess you don't play the game much. Because if you did, you'd know that there is no such thing as a "perfectly safe" opening. All builds carry risks. All builds have counter builds. To berate Fantasy for using a build that isn't 100% safe is indeed ludicrous. If you do that, you might as well berate every single SC build that ever existed. Opting for a build that is autoloss against 9-pool is not a very smart move.
And opting to play standard MnM OP against Jaedong is? Have you ever seen Fantasy win a standard MnM TvZ?
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On August 15 2009 15:03 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 14:48 Holgerius wrote:On August 15 2009 14:32 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 14:21 Holgerius wrote:On August 15 2009 14:08 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:59 Harem wrote:On August 15 2009 12:21 baubo wrote:On August 15 2009 12:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 15 2009 10:43 konadora wrote:
Wtf game 4
Fantasy is so unlucky rofl Game 4 was not "unlucky", just very bad. + Show Spoiler +His building placement was just plain horrendous. Anyone going 9 pool would have won against him with that build, even a D+ ICCUP player. I have no clue what he was thinking. He was unlucky because of his spawn location. Which would still make it his fault for going for the wall? Not sure what you're implying. Are you saying he shouldn't have walled in? And just let lings run amok inside his base. Fantasy was going to use the fast-Factory OP. He had no choice BUT to wall in. He just happened to spawn at a location where his wall in is perfectly countered by 9 pool. There is such a thing as luck in SC, you know. WTF? Luck had nothing to do with his loss. Why did he go for that strategy if it forced him to do that retarded wall in? He should've just used another strategy then. I guess you don't play the game much. Because if you did, you'd know that there is no such thing as a "perfectly safe" opening. All builds carry risks. All builds have counter builds. To berate Fantasy for using a build that isn't 100% safe is indeed ludicrous. If you do that, you might as well berate every single SC build that ever existed. Opting for a build that is autoloss against 9-pool is not a very smart move. And opting to play standard MnM OP against Jaedong is? Have you ever seen Fantasy win a standard MnM TvZ?
Well, there you go, you've just proven my point; the loss had nothing to do with luck, he lost because his lack of skills. The loss can, and should, be attributed to his poor skills with MnM and inability to adapt.
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The loss should first and foremost be attributed to Jaedong. But yeah.
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On August 15 2009 14:48 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 14:32 baubo wrote:
To berate Fantasy for using a build that isn't 100% safe is indeed ludicrous. If you do that, you might as well berate every single SC build that ever existed. The point is not that he didn't choose a "100% safe" opening, it is that he chose a 100% failing opening vs. any ling pressure (not exactly rare). This throws away 50% of his chances right there, for no good reason: even if he did live, there is no guarantee he'd win; pretty bad gamble, no?
It's the simple unlogic of this wall-in, why wall in against speedlings with wall that fails against them? bad play from fantasy
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i dont think he scouted for them in time.
he sent the scout when the lings were halfway to his base and he moved around the lings (jaedong was kinda sending them cross-map until he saw where fantasy was).
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On August 15 2009 17:15 johanes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 14:48 citi.zen wrote:On August 15 2009 14:32 baubo wrote:
To berate Fantasy for using a build that isn't 100% safe is indeed ludicrous. If you do that, you might as well berate every single SC build that ever existed. The point is not that he didn't choose a "100% safe" opening, it is that he chose a 100% failing opening vs. any ling pressure (not exactly rare). This throws away 50% of his chances right there, for no good reason: even if he did live, there is no guarantee he'd win; pretty bad gamble, no? It's the simple unlogic of this wall-in, why wall in against speedlings with wall that fails against them? bad play from fantasy
It doesn't fail against lings. It fails against NINE POOL lings not in cross positions. If any of the following had happened, the wall-in would've succeeded.
1. Jaedong opt for overpool or 12 hatch. Both of which are more standard ZvT play than 9 pool.
2. Fantasy not spawning at 2 o'clock.
3. Spawn locations are at cross positions
The marine came out right when the lings arrived. If the lings arrived even a few seconds later, the marine would've been inside and Jaedong's build would've failed.
I don't know why people has to disregard Fantasy just for the sake of pumping Jaedong up.
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EPT
