I admire your enthusiasm but why rushing it so hard? There are 3 days till then, I was planning to make some gfx and interviews for this MU... and fix the lineups and the team logos pls
On July 03 2009 08:56 disciple wrote: I admire your enthusiasm but why rushing it so hard? There are 3 days till then, I was planning to make some gfx and interviews for this MU... and fix the lineups and the team logos pls
gah O.O;; Kona didnt do the other xD can a mod delete this then?
Yeah, flip the team logos around. Where's Effort? Surely, he's would have been a better choice than Savior, especially since they're facing SKT1. A 3-0 SKT1 very possible here =(
I honestly don't see why people assume that the coaches/teams know who their opponent is going to be in the map. Savior's getting a lot of Z v Z's lately, but it's not like the coaches know that his opponent is going to be zerg.-.-
T-favored Neitral P-favored Z-favored. I think there's a big chance, since SKT has weak zergs. Why risk putting their good player on a Z favored map and not use the T/P favored maps to maximum advantage?
On July 03 2009 10:36 Dice84 wrote: Interesting lineup from both sides.
What's so interesting from T1? Seems like the standard Bisu/Best/Fantasy/Zerg combo they've been using for a while, except lately Best has been changing in and out with Canata.
you know, of all people i really do admire saviors games. yes, hes been lacking here and there and there will always be people taunting him and saying how bad he is, how he fails people betting on him, etc, excuses, but seriously. 2009 isnt over, i can still see him tearing up PL. hopefully he wins this tonight, if not, no big deal. 2010 isnt here yet. ZvZ has always been saviors worst MU but i believe still.
On July 03 2009 10:36 Dice84 wrote: Interesting lineup from both sides.
What's so interesting from T1? Seems like the standard Bisu/Best/Fantasy/Zerg combo they've been using for a while, except lately Best has been changing in and out with Canata.
I find it interesting that T1 is sending out Hyuk rather than TheZerg, which is their top Zerg imo. Other than that it's totally standard. You can see CJ isn't as desperate for the win as SKT is: they've already secured their playoff spot, but don't have any hopes of finishing first or second. The difference of ending up anywhere between 3rd and 6th is small, so rather than send out their big guns, they're giving other players like Snow a chance to play.
On July 03 2009 12:34 il0seonpurpose wrote: Wow SKT is a good team but they have no depth at all, Fantasy, Bisu, and Best. All well, FTW
There's not many teams out there with significantly more depth than SKT1. fantasy is good, Bisu is amazing, BeSt is good as long as he's not playing vZ, Canata is good, and both their Zerg mainstays Hyuk and TheZerg are okay.
STX and CJ might have more depth. Most other teams have less depth than SKT, in fact. Of the teams that can qualify in the top 6...
Hwaseung will suffer in a Bo7 if they have to field up to 6 different players- they have four solid players, but everyone else is terrible. Hite has comparable depth to SKT. KT's depth depends a lot on whether Luxury and fOrGG feel like sucking on any particular day. CJ and STX have the greatest depth out of all the teams. KHAN's depth is so bad that even as they're desperately trying to claw their way into the playoffs, they're fielding Miracle with a 3-9 lifetime record.
Mae Bonjwa!... =P Good lineups for both teams, lets hope for good matches. Snow is a new player but if he is better than Movie we shall see one hell of PvP
On July 03 2009 12:34 il0seonpurpose wrote: Wow SKT is a good team but they have no depth at all, Fantasy, Bisu, and Best. All well, FTW
wtf? say that to teams like KT. even Oz is getting a bit better. SKT is some where in the middle when in comes to depth. Also I don't see why you don't list Canata. If anything Canata > Best at the moment. And of course STX and CJ would be at the top.
On July 03 2009 12:34 il0seonpurpose wrote: Wow SKT is a good team but they have no depth at all, Fantasy, Bisu, and Best. All well, FTW
..not at all. They might not have the depth CJ has, but the players that they CAN feild are at a higher level than anyteam in the league. In a BO7 format, teams like CJ, SKT and STX will shine, while teams like KT, HITE, OZ and Khan will fail.
SKT has Bisu, BeST, Canata and Fantasy all of whom have the capability to take games off of A-S class players. Given that BeST doesn't play vs Z, that lineup in itself is almost an auto-win. Throw in Thezerg (who isnt REALLY that bad) and Hyuk, you have a lineup that could possibly win the PL grand finals.
Teams like Oz and Hite that rely on 1-2 "good" players are gonna die in a bo7. In a bo5 you can hope another player pulls a game, but in a bo7, you need at least 3 players winning their games. Oz has notorious for only haveing JD. Hite only has Leta.. ( i guess you could add Yarnc to this list)
On July 03 2009 14:18 DreaM)XeRO wrote: Teams like Oz and Hite that rely on 1-2 "good" players are gonna die in a bo7. In a bo5 you can hope another player pulls a game, but in a bo7, you need at least 3 players winning their games. Oz has notorious for only haveing JD. Hite only has Leta.. ( i guess you could add Yarnc to this list)
I have to disagree with you on Hite. They have:
Leta, their Ace player go.go, who's been having a comeback lately HoGiL, an unspectacular Zerg who is statistically better than Hyuk Horang2, a competent protoss YellOw[ArnC], who's been racking up a lot of wins lately type-b, who's been tearing up the OSL against the likes of Pure, BeSt and Stork
Hite is definitely not a team lacking in depth. KHAN is probably the one that is worst off out of all the teams that can qualify for the playoffs.
On July 03 2009 15:07 Kentor wrote: SKT must win for #1 spot. If anyone drops a game, i must cheer for Hyuk over savior :p
And even if SKT wins both of their remaining sets (the one against KT will be fierce), they still need Hwaseung to drop a set to get that #1 spot- and they only have KHAN, ACE and MBC left to face.
On July 03 2009 12:34 il0seonpurpose wrote: Wow SKT is a good team but they have no depth at all, Fantasy, Bisu, and Best. All well, FTW
..not at all. They might not have the depth CJ has, but the players that they CAN feild are at a higher level than anyteam in the league. In a BO7 format, teams like CJ, SKT and STX will shine, while teams like KT, HITE, OZ and Khan will fail.
SKT has Bisu, BeST, Canata and Fantasy all of whom have the capability to take games off of A-S class players. Given that BeST doesn't play vs Z, that lineup in itself is almost an auto-win. Throw in Thezerg (who isnt REALLY that bad) and Hyuk, you have a lineup that could possibly win the PL grand finals.
Teams like Oz and Hite that rely on 1-2 "good" players are gonna die in a bo7. In a bo5 you can hope another player pulls a game, but in a bo7, you need at least 3 players winning their games. Oz has notorious for only haveing JD. Hite only has Leta.. ( i guess you could add Yarnc to this list)
honestly... you are being very biased.
Canata truly does suck (even at TvT, his single 'good' matchup) and his individual league qualification doesn't really change that fact. Best is now bad enough that Kingdom quit. Fantasy and Bisu are solid. So SKT has 2 truly great players. Who is SK going to use for its first 6 games after Bisu, Best, Canata, Fantasy have played? TheZerg? Hyuk? ... Midas?
On the other hand, you make Hite (Leta, Yarnc, Horang2, Type-B, go.go, Hogil) and Oz (JD, Lomo, Hyuk, Backho) sound way worse than they really are.
Hwaseung has a plausible chance of losing vs Khan, especially since FBH has had some flashes of his old brilliance lately. I don't see any chance of them losing vs ACE or MBC, though. I don't see SKT dropping this set so they need Hwaseung to drop vs Khan (plausible) and have favorable draws against KT or have KT players suck and they'll probably be 1st.
On July 03 2009 12:34 il0seonpurpose wrote: Wow SKT is a good team but they have no depth at all, Fantasy, Bisu, and Best. All well, FTW
..not at all. They might not have the depth CJ has, but the players that they CAN feild are at a higher level than anyteam in the league. In a BO7 format, teams like CJ, SKT and STX will shine, while teams like KT, HITE, OZ and Khan will fail.
SKT has Bisu, BeST, Canata and Fantasy all of whom have the capability to take games off of A-S class players. Given that BeST doesn't play vs Z, that lineup in itself is almost an auto-win. Throw in Thezerg (who isnt REALLY that bad) and Hyuk, you have a lineup that could possibly win the PL grand finals.
Teams like Oz and Hite that rely on 1-2 "good" players are gonna die in a bo7. In a bo5 you can hope another player pulls a game, but in a bo7, you need at least 3 players winning their games. Oz has notorious for only haveing JD. Hite only has Leta.. ( i guess you could add Yarnc to this list)
honestly... you are being very biased.
Canata truly does suck (even at TvT, his single 'good' matchup) and his individual league qualification doesn't really change that fact. Best is now bad enough that Kingdom quit. Fantasy and Bisu are solid. So SKT has 2 truly great players. Who is SK going to use for its first 6 games after Bisu, Best, Canata, Fantasy have played? TheZerg? Hyuk? ... Midas?
On the other hand, you make Hite (Leta, Yarnc, Horang2, Type-B, go.go, Hogil) and Oz (JD, Lomo, Hyuk, Backho) sound way worse than they really are.
You can't be serious, Leta is good, Yarnc is ok, the rest is soso. At Oz JD is good, Backho is ok, rest sux...
As for this match, SKT should win it easily, CJ just isnt as strong anymore these days... Just 1 good player left (maybe 2 if skyhigh would perform) but the rest is just slightly above avg at best >_<;
I know that its coming down to the wire for the playoffs of the proleague and so each and every team is sending out their best all the time, hence SKT-t1 sending out bisu/best/fantasy for 1st 3 matches every round..
but Cj-eNtus trying to match Bisu up against some Protoss that i've never heard of? I mean, nothing against SnOw, I wish him well since he's a protoss user, but trying to go toe-to-toe w/ the King.. i'd be surprised if he even had a 20% chance, rating wise, against Bisu.
Looking forward to seeing the match though - anyone going to stream it? it starts pretty soon? like 2.5 hours?
Snow is new he can pull the upset here and savior well the coachs didnt know savior be play ZvZ again because they dont know the format until both teams sent out the players. i predict 3-1 CJ
On July 03 2009 12:34 il0seonpurpose wrote: Wow SKT is a good team but they have no depth at all, Fantasy, Bisu, and Best. All well, FTW
..not at all. They might not have the depth CJ has, but the players that they CAN feild are at a higher level than anyteam in the league. In a BO7 format, teams like CJ, SKT and STX will shine, while teams like KT, HITE, OZ and Khan will fail.
SKT has Bisu, BeST, Canata and Fantasy all of whom have the capability to take games off of A-S class players. Given that BeST doesn't play vs Z, that lineup in itself is almost an auto-win. Throw in Thezerg (who isnt REALLY that bad) and Hyuk, you have a lineup that could possibly win the PL grand finals.
Teams like Oz and Hite that rely on 1-2 "good" players are gonna die in a bo7. In a bo5 you can hope another player pulls a game, but in a bo7, you need at least 3 players winning their games. Oz has notorious for only haveing JD. Hite only has Leta.. ( i guess you could add Yarnc to this list)
honestly... you are being very biased.
Canata truly does suck (even at TvT, his single 'good' matchup) and his individual league qualification doesn't really change that fact. Best is now bad enough that Kingdom quit. Fantasy and Bisu are solid. So SKT has 2 truly great players. Who is SK going to use for its first 6 games after Bisu, Best, Canata, Fantasy have played? TheZerg? Hyuk? ... Midas?
On the other hand, you make Hite (Leta, Yarnc, Horang2, Type-B, go.go, Hogil) and Oz (JD, Lomo, Hyuk, Backho) sound way worse than they really are.
You can't be serious, Leta is good, Yarnc is ok, the rest is soso. At Oz JD is good, Backho is ok, rest sux...
As for this match, SKT should win it easily, CJ just isnt as strong anymore these days... Just 1 good player left (maybe 2 if skyhigh would perform) but the rest is just slightly above avg at best >_<;
Well Kwanro is playing more then well and so is Iris. Effort is the second best Z at the moment. Skyhigh is not playing as well as he did but he is not bad. Savior still can beat any P in the world. Cj hs four player in the top 30. Call them slighty about avrage is very harsh. With out any doubt Cj has the best 7-man lineup of all team.
On July 03 2009 12:34 il0seonpurpose wrote: Wow SKT is a good team but they have no depth at all, Fantasy, Bisu, and Best. All well, FTW
There's not many teams out there with significantly more depth than SKT1. fantasy is good, Bisu is amazing, BeSt is good as long as he's not playing vZ, Canata is good, and both their Zerg mainstays Hyuk and TheZerg are okay.
STX and CJ might have more depth. Most other teams have less depth than SKT, in fact. Of the teams that can qualify in the top 6...
Hwaseung will suffer in a Bo7 if they have to field up to 6 different players- they have four solid players, but everyone else is terrible. Hite has comparable depth to SKT. KT's depth depends a lot on whether Luxury and fOrGG feel like sucking on any particular day. CJ and STX have the greatest depth out of all the teams. KHAN's depth is so bad that even as they're desperately trying to claw their way into the playoffs, they're fielding Miracle with a 3-9 lifetime record.
tl;dr: SKT's depth is fine.
EDIT: Holy crap I'm a Zealot now!
OZ only has Jaedong, everyone else chokes or goes on a slump. STX has the best balance in terms of the overall team.
On July 03 2009 12:34 il0seonpurpose wrote: Wow SKT is a good team but they have no depth at all, Fantasy, Bisu, and Best. All well, FTW
..not at all. They might not have the depth CJ has, but the players that they CAN feild are at a higher level than anyteam in the league. In a BO7 format, teams like CJ, SKT and STX will shine, while teams like KT, HITE, OZ and Khan will fail.
SKT has Bisu, BeST, Canata and Fantasy all of whom have the capability to take games off of A-S class players. Given that BeST doesn't play vs Z, that lineup in itself is almost an auto-win. Throw in Thezerg (who isnt REALLY that bad) and Hyuk, you have a lineup that could possibly win the PL grand finals.
Teams like Oz and Hite that rely on 1-2 "good" players are gonna die in a bo7. In a bo5 you can hope another player pulls a game, but in a bo7, you need at least 3 players winning their games. Oz has notorious for only haveing JD. Hite only has Leta.. ( i guess you could add Yarnc to this list)
honestly... you are being very biased.
Canata truly does suck
Canata is 7-3 for his last 10 games, is still alive in both OSL and MSL, and sees semi-regular action in Proleague in one of the most star-studded teams out there.
On July 03 2009 12:34 il0seonpurpose wrote: Wow SKT is a good team but they have no depth at all, Fantasy, Bisu, and Best. All well, FTW
There's not many teams out there with significantly more depth than SKT1. fantasy is good, Bisu is amazing, BeSt is good as long as he's not playing vZ, Canata is good, and both their Zerg mainstays Hyuk and TheZerg are okay.
STX and CJ might have more depth. Most other teams have less depth than SKT, in fact. Of the teams that can qualify in the top 6...
Hwaseung will suffer in a Bo7 if they have to field up to 6 different players- they have four solid players, but everyone else is terrible. Hite has comparable depth to SKT. KT's depth depends a lot on whether Luxury and fOrGG feel like sucking on any particular day. CJ and STX have the greatest depth out of all the teams. KHAN's depth is so bad that even as they're desperately trying to claw their way into the playoffs, they're fielding Miracle with a 3-9 lifetime record.
tl;dr: SKT's depth is fine.
EDIT: Holy crap I'm a Zealot now!
OZ only has Jaedong, everyone else chokes or goes on a slump. STX has the best balance in terms of the overall team.
Let me put it this way. When you're in a Bo7 team game, your team needs to field up 6 different players if the series goes on for 6 or 7 sets. If Oz only had Jaedong, then they'd most likely win one set, then lose all the rest by default for not having any other players (cue the PirateZerg and MustacheZerg references). Oz is _not_ a one-man team. Yes, Jaedong is their best player by far. Winner's league aside (during which HiyA was just as pivotal as Jaedong for Hwaseung), Oz has won 26 Proleague series. Jaedong cannot win in Proleague alone, he needs his teammates to perform as well.
His teammates might not be at the level of Bisu, Leta or EffOrt, but they're not at the level of Rock or CuteAngel either. What I'm trying to say is: Not all players that aren't at the skill level of Flash are complete and utter garbage. There really is something in between a bonjwa and D-, skillwise. In fact, just about every progamer falls into that category.
Sure, Hwaseung fans may complain that their second and third best players aren't as good as those in SKT or STX. That's true. But I don't see Hwaseung resorting to using someone like Miracle in their lineup, either. When you need to field 6 players from a team, Backho Lomo and HiyA are _not bad choices_. Hwaseung's problem in a Bo7 format isn't that those three aren't good enough- it's that their choices for fifth and sixth slot are pretty crappy.
On July 03 2009 12:34 il0seonpurpose wrote: Wow SKT is a good team but they have no depth at all, Fantasy, Bisu, and Best. All well, FTW
..not at all. They might not have the depth CJ has, but the players that they CAN feild are at a higher level than anyteam in the league. In a BO7 format, teams like CJ, SKT and STX will shine, while teams like KT, HITE, OZ and Khan will fail.
SKT has Bisu, BeST, Canata and Fantasy all of whom have the capability to take games off of A-S class players. Given that BeST doesn't play vs Z, that lineup in itself is almost an auto-win. Throw in Thezerg (who isnt REALLY that bad) and Hyuk, you have a lineup that could possibly win the PL grand finals.
Teams like Oz and Hite that rely on 1-2 "good" players are gonna die in a bo7. In a bo5 you can hope another player pulls a game, but in a bo7, you need at least 3 players winning their games. Oz has notorious for only haveing JD. Hite only has Leta.. ( i guess you could add Yarnc to this list)
honestly... you are being very biased.
Canata truly does suck (even at TvT, his single 'good' matchup) and his individual league qualification doesn't really change that fact. Best is now bad enough that Kingdom quit. Fantasy and Bisu are solid. So SKT has 2 truly great players. Who is SK going to use for its first 6 games after Bisu, Best, Canata, Fantasy have played? TheZerg? Hyuk? ... Midas?
On the other hand, you make Hite (Leta, Yarnc, Horang2, Type-B, go.go, Hogil) and Oz (JD, Lomo, Hyuk, Backho) sound way worse than they really are.
You can't be serious, Leta is good, Yarnc is ok, the rest is soso. At Oz JD is good, Backho is ok, rest sux...
As for this match, SKT should win it easily, CJ just isnt as strong anymore these days... Just 1 good player left (maybe 2 if skyhigh would perform) but the rest is just slightly above avg at best >_<;
Well Kwanro is playing more then well and so is Iris. Effort is the second best Z at the moment. Skyhigh is not playing as well as he did but he is not bad. Savior still can beat any P in the world. Cj hs four player in the top 30. Call them slighty about avrage is very harsh. With out any doubt Cj has the best 7-man lineup of all team.
Edit did I even mension Much?
ranking doesnt mean that much, kwanro is ok but nothing special i would call him quite average... iris hasnt performed in ages and well hes quite average as well... savior on a good day could beat any protoss, unfortunately any other matchup is instaloss and he doesnt have much good days... Much well... don't think he's special either just your average protoss... then only have effort left who owns....
Snow only just joined the CJ team. So either a) CJ doesn't care whether he wins or loses, they just want to give him experience or b) he's been practising since January for this match =D
I think Skyhigh might have the advantage over Fantasy. He's a lot more unpredictable.
On July 03 2009 17:28 JFKWT wrote: noob question, but do the coaches know in advance what players are being sent by the other team?
Is it totally blind or 1-1 draft or something else
cos if its totally blind things like "why is Free playing PvP" or "don't send a zerg vs Jaedong" wont make much of a point =p
Coaches know what the maps are for all five games, and choose a player for each of the first four games without knowing what the other coach is sending out. Of course, you know that the other team is more likely to send out a Zerg player on a Zerg-favored map like God's Garden, or a Protoss on Heartbreak Ridge- but that's all. Of course, if you're facing Hwaseung, you know it's most likely they'll send out Jaedong in God's Garden. Do you want to send a Zerg to face him? Or would you rather send out a Protoss or Terran on an unfavorable map? Not an easy choice.
If after four games you end up 2-2, then coaches choose their Ace player without knowing who the other team has chosen.
Looks like 3-0 with SKT winning to me. Even if Cj win a game, Savior's ZvZ is a disaster. Cj is the #2 fail team of this round (for fpl), only Khan was worse compared to expectations.
I dont get it.. Why do CJ coaches INSIST on sending Savior in ZvZ's? He sucks at it.. >w<;; I mean.. he IS playing Hyuk but.. i'm not feeling a win for Savior.
On July 03 2009 12:34 il0seonpurpose wrote: Wow SKT is a good team but they have no depth at all, Fantasy, Bisu, and Best. All well, FTW
..not at all. They might not have the depth CJ has, but the players that they CAN feild are at a higher level than anyteam in the league. In a BO7 format, teams like CJ, SKT and STX will shine, while teams like KT, HITE, OZ and Khan will fail.
SKT has Bisu, BeST, Canata and Fantasy all of whom have the capability to take games off of A-S class players. Given that BeST doesn't play vs Z, that lineup in itself is almost an auto-win. Throw in Thezerg (who isnt REALLY that bad) and Hyuk, you have a lineup that could possibly win the PL grand finals.
Teams like Oz and Hite that rely on 1-2 "good" players are gonna die in a bo7. In a bo5 you can hope another player pulls a game, but in a bo7, you need at least 3 players winning their games. Oz has notorious for only haveing JD. Hite only has Leta.. ( i guess you could add Yarnc to this list)
honestly... you are being very biased.
Canata truly does suck (even at TvT, his single 'good' matchup) and his individual league qualification doesn't really change that fact. Best is now bad enough that Kingdom quit. Fantasy and Bisu are solid. So SKT has 2 truly great players. Who is SK going to use for its first 6 games after Bisu, Best, Canata, Fantasy have played? TheZerg? Hyuk? ... Midas?
On the other hand, you make Hite (Leta, Yarnc, Horang2, Type-B, go.go, Hogil) and Oz (JD, Lomo, Hyuk, Backho) sound way worse than they really are.
You can't be serious, Leta is good, Yarnc is ok, the rest is soso. At Oz JD is good, Backho is ok, rest sux...
As for this match, SKT should win it easily, CJ just isnt as strong anymore these days... Just 1 good player left (maybe 2 if skyhigh would perform) but the rest is just slightly above avg at best >_<;
funny.
SKT: bisu is good, fantasy is good, the rest are soso (Keep overhyping canata desperate SKT fans)
CJ is Effort, sKyHigh, much, movie, kwanro, savior, iris
On July 03 2009 17:28 JFKWT wrote: noob question, but do the coaches know in advance what players are being sent by the other team?
Is it totally blind or 1-1 draft or something else
cos if its totally blind things like "why is Free playing PvP" or "don't send a zerg vs Jaedong" wont make much of a point =p
each coach submits their lineup for the given maps to kespa. When the lineups are submitted, neither coach knows what players from the other team will play where when he is submitting his list.
However, the lineups are released about a week before the actual match, giving players a chance to practice for that week while knowing not only what map they will be playing on, but also who their opponent will be.
CJ is definitely the team with the most depth, STX is a close second, especially with players like Shutte showing they are good enough for PL.
SKT has fantasy and Bisu, Best has been in a slump since WL started, Canata is meh otherwise SKT would send him out more. And SKT are and will always be failzergs. :p
Oz has Jaedong, Hiya is in a slump (but ended his losing streak at least), BackHo is an awesome player as long as he doesn't get an early advantage. Lomo is a bit better than Canata. The rest is eh..., Killer maybe (he seems to be doing good in practice).
Hite used to be like Oz, Leta and someone else getting a win, Leta wins the ace match. But recently their players all improved so I would put them around SKT's strength. KT is the team full of fails, forgg, Lux. Flash and Violet are the only reason they still have a chance for the playoffs and Khan's players are all slumping.
On July 04 2009 01:47 cgrinker wrote: Maybe Savior should offrace against Hyuk.
Don't think that's possible. He would have to let KeSPA know in advance he's playing as a different race, you can't just switch races whenever you feel like it as far as I know.
This should be good; hoping it goes to ACE so we can see EffOrt v. Bisu.
sKyHigh < fantasy The better player over-all, the better player right now. Snow < Bisu Personally, I'd love this match if I'm Snow. Great way to get into the league; a no pressure game against one of the best. He'll lose though. Iris > BeSt BeSt's PvT is his only MO that hasn't slipped so much, but I still like Iris to take this. Poor Iris has been cheesed nearly every time he's played in this round, always by terran. Hopefully he'll get some mojo back with a win here. sAviOr < Hyuk Did I just pick an SKT1 failzerg to win? I guess, when it comes down to it, I've seen sAviOr lose so many ZvZ's recently, I don't believe in his micro. I'll be rooting for him though.
SKT1 - 3 CJ - 1 I hate to pick against CJ, but without EffOrt, I don't see it.
CJ's only chance here is for sKyHigh to beat fantasy, or for sAviOr to beat Hyuk. I really don't see either of these happening, but I'd say the latter is more likely. I am confused as to why EffOrt isn't in this line-up, but CJ's coaches seem to have a magic touch with unorthodox decisions (actually just Kwanro in ACE, but I digress...).
On July 04 2009 03:51 tree.hugger wrote: I am confused as to why EffOrt isn't in this line-up
they cant realistically reach rank 2, they cant drop out of ranks 3-6, the positioning withing ranks 3-6 doesnt really matter. so the outcome of their remaining pl games doesnt bother them at all.
so why not give newcomers or players from the b-team a chance to prove themselves and gain experience on the big stage? at the same time by doing that they free up their star players for their individual leagues and to relieve the stress a bit. u could see at zombie-flash what it does to a player if he has to play more than 1 pl game on average per match of his team plus makes it far in all the individual leagues.
imho it is a very wise decision by the coaches to "semi-give-away" these remaining matches by such a lineup.
On July 04 2009 05:52 AzureEye wrote: OP is dumb for saying Savior's ZvZ sucks.
He is 2-8 for his last 10 ZvZs. I wouldn't say his ZvZ necessarily sucks because of it, but the notion is plausible.
There's a difference in recent performance and overall skill. If you want to make a correlation, you have to use a bigger data sample rather than just 10 games. Savior is just in a slump, hence gets bad performance results lately Flash is 4-4 against Protoss. Just because his recent results are kinda bad doesn't mean his TvP is bad. He's still a favorite against almost any Protoss
yea, savior is doing great in zvz recently. *rolleyes*
How about you stop being an idiot and actually READ my post where I never argued whether he was doing great recently or not. I just said that he doesn't suck at ZvZ. Yes I know he's doing bad recently, but that doesn't make him suck at ZvZ
On July 04 2009 05:52 AzureEye wrote: OP is dumb for saying Savior's ZvZ sucks.
Well Savior really isn't doing too well in ZvZ right now huh?
Refer to my post above^
Well I didn't say his ZvZ sucked, I said he isn't doing to well. I think the 2-8 really backs me up there. I mean you can defend him all you want, but it doesn't really matter since he's dropping games left and right to the point where the CJ coach will only play him when he isn't going to be a huge detriment to the team.
On July 04 2009 05:52 AzureEye wrote: OP is dumb for saying Savior's ZvZ sucks.
Well Savior really isn't doing too well in ZvZ right now huh?
Refer to my post above^
Well I didn't say his ZvZ sucked, I said he isn't doing to well. I think the 2-8 really backs me up there. I mean you can defend him all you want, but it doesn't really matter since he's dropping games left and right to the point where the CJ coach will only play him when he isn't going to be a huge detriment to the team.
yup thats true, I would predict Savior losing this game as well
But some people are dull enough not to realize the difference between saying someone's matchup sucks or if that person's performance in that matchup is not great lately
Those are 2 different arguments, but they can be correlated if you use a bigger data sampling pool rather than just 10 games
yea, savior is doing great in zvz recently. *rolleyes*
How about you stop being an idiot and actually READ my post where I never argued whether he was doing great recently or not. I just said that he doesn't suck at ZvZ. Yes I know he's doing bad recently, but that doesn't make him suck at ZvZ
Chill dude, check the times, he posted that right as you posted your rebuttal. Doubt your post was up when he clicked "post".
That said, sAviOr's ZvZ does suck right now. Your contention that he is only in a "slump" is ridiculous, in the last twelve months he is 11-11 in ZvZs, and in 2009 he is 6-9. that's not good. sAviOr has been in a slump since 2007. The comparison to Flash simply doesn't hold water; in the last twelve months Flash is 34-15 against protoss, and 15-9 this year.
It's easy to see why Flash is the favorite against any toss, and why sAviOr isn't the favorite against a zerg, let alone anybody at this point.
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Now I hold out hope that sAviOr will win, since with any player save a certain Lee Jae Dong (and perhaps another certain Kim Jung Woo), ZvZ is pretty much a toss-up. Sending it to Ace would be great for CJ. Unfortunately, SKT1 has more ways to win this though.
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EDIT: Woah, totally unrelated to the above, but check out Iris's lifetime records against each race. Consistency, consistency, consistency.
On July 03 2009 15:19 Avidkeystamper wrote: Hwaseung has a plausible chance of losing vs Khan, especially since FBH has had some flashes of his old brilliance lately. I don't see any chance of them losing vs ACE or MBC, though. I don't see SKT dropping this set so they need Hwaseung to drop vs Khan (plausible) and have favorable draws against KT or have KT players suck and they'll probably be 1st.
yea, savior is doing great in zvz recently. *rolleyes*
How about you stop being an idiot and actually READ my post where I never argued whether he was doing great recently or not. I just said that he doesn't suck at ZvZ. Yes I know he's doing bad recently, but that doesn't make him suck at ZvZ
Chill dude, check the times, he posted that right as you posted your rebuttal. Doubt your post was up when he clicked "post".
That said, sAviOr's ZvZ does suck right now. Your contention that he is only in a "slump" is ridiculous, in the last twelve months he is 11-11 in ZvZs, and in 2009 he is 6-9. that's not good. sAviOr has been in a slump since 2007. The comparison to Flash simply doesn't hold water; in the last twelve months Flash is 34-15 against protoss, and 15-9 this year.
It's easy to see why Flash is the favorite against any toss, and why sAviOr isn't the favorite against a zerg, let alone anybody at this point.
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Now I hold out hope that sAviOr will win, since with any player save a certain Lee Jae Dong (and perhaps another certain Kim Jung Woo), ZvZ is pretty much a toss-up. Sending it to Ace would be great for CJ. Unfortunately, SKT1 has more ways to win this though.
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EDIT: Woah, totally unrelated to the above, but check out Iris's lifetime records against each race. Consistency, consistency, consistency.
IMO, Iris always looked like a really good player, but alot of people seem to underestimate him.
On July 05 2009 04:09 thinkzerg wrote: EffOrt vs Bisu rematch for ace
Given the map, SKT can expect EffOrt to come out for the ace game, so sending out anyone other than Bisu would be folly. Then again, I'm expecting 3-0 or 3-1 for SKT so I wouldn't worry much about the ace game yet.
On July 05 2009 04:09 thinkzerg wrote: EffOrt vs Bisu rematch for ace
Given the map, SKT can expect EffOrt to come out for the ace game, so sending out anyone other than Bisu would be folly. Then again, I'm expecting 3-0 or 3-1 for SKT so I wouldn't worry much about the ace game yet.
I'd make a good argument that Fantasy could beat Effort. Look at his record recently. He is currently on a 10 win streak against players such as Leta, Kal and Jangbi. His win over type-b in the OSL was impressive, and showcases his TvZ very well
On July 05 2009 04:09 thinkzerg wrote: EffOrt vs Bisu rematch for ace
Given the map, SKT can expect EffOrt to come out for the ace game, so sending out anyone other than Bisu would be folly. Then again, I'm expecting 3-0 or 3-1 for SKT so I wouldn't worry much about the ace game yet.
I'd make a good argument that Fantasy could beat Effort. Look at his record recently. He is currently on a 10 win streak against players such as Leta, Kal and Jangbi. His win over type-b in the OSL was impressive, and showcases his TvZ very well
You know why fantasy hasn't been sent out as ace for ages? Anyone can come out as their team's ace. Fantasy is only S-class if he can prepare against a single opponent. He isn't an all-round fighter like JD, Bisu, Flash, Effort, Leta.
Team matches depend on being able to send someone in every game. Upsets happen (Hoejja vs Bisu), people cheese, people choke, people suddenly step up to the plate and play amazingly (Skyhigh). Also, even slumping players tend to wake up a bit when their team's success in on the line in a big way --- people like Savior, Best, ForGG, and Lux all have the mental prowess to not suck completely when the big day comes.
Obviously CJ and STX have the strongest all-around Bo7 lineups, but I think that if KT's guys play at their highest level they can take anyone. STX suffers from not having an S-class ace player, whereas OZ, SKT, KT, and CJ have an obvious choice for ace.
edit: Also, people seem to forget that you only need 3 wins and a solid ace player to have a shot at winning. Even OZ can win a Bo7 if things go well for them: jaedong wins, 2 out backho/hiya/lomo win, jaedong takes ace. You can't count out a team with a strong ace just because they only have 4 halfway decent players, because 4 wins is all it takes.
On July 05 2009 05:45 Avidkeystamper wrote: I'm tentative about Tempest because we haven't seen from him in so long. Same for July, though I'm sure he has some fight left.
Tempest is definitely borderline. But as far as fillers go, he's a pretty good filler. Certainly better than someone like Spear or Miracle or Frozean, and about as good as Lomo or TheZerg (for example).
July cannot be counted out under any circumstances, nor can you count on him for a win unless it's ZvP
Hite also has Hogil, who's as good as Type-B at the very least.
An interesting note on the 3 good depth teams (CJ, STX, and Hite to a degree) with their six man line up, they are all 3 half zerg (CJ is Kwanro, Effort, Savior, Hite is Hogil, Yarnc, Type-B, STX is Calm, July, Hero). That means that, once best of seven hits, I think the teams with the best overall vZ line up will be able to take down the 'depth' teams that look like shoe ins.
With the exception to Khan, I think all the other teams are suspiciously good vs zerg. SKT has Bisu, Fantasy (With prep time ofc), and TheZerg (who's only reasonable match up is ZvZ, honestly). Oz? Jaedong is an autowin, Hiya fairs alright, and Lomo's specialty is Zerg -- Backho's also improved his PvZ immensely.
And let's not forget the arguable best anti zerg team (I know I know I'm biased, but hear me out): KT. KT's got Lux, formerly second best ZvZer and still capable of taking those games, Flash who has no weak match ups (he's been performing poorly lately, I'll admit, but this is all in theory and Flash is the only player who's never had an honestly weak match up), ForGG still has a sickening TvZ rate, and if he steps up he's arguably the best TvZer around. Violet, while underperforming ultra recently against the likes of Jaedong and Effort, still has shown obscenely impressive PvZs before. The only suspect players are Hoejja, who's formerly painfully bad results vZ have drastically improved, and Tempest who only seems to be able to pull out big games against good zergs (Ousting both Zero and Jaedong from GOM before).
I think if KT gets to a Bo7, and turns on even a little bit of their juice, they could absolutely trash the "depth" teams who seem to mostly rely on their Zerg line up (whereas KT's line up is 2 of each race, amusingly).
Kind of sad that their Playoff future doesn't look bright.
On July 05 2009 07:02 TwoToneTerran wrote: Hite also has Hogil, who's as good as Type-B at the very least.
An interesting note on the 3 good depth teams (CJ, STX, and Hite to a degree) with their six man line up, they are all 3 half zerg (CJ is Kwanro, Effort, Savior, Hite is Hogil, Yarnc, Type-B, STX is Calm, July, Hero). That means that, once best of seven hits, I think the teams with the best overall vZ line up will be able to take down the 'depth' teams that look like shoe ins.
With the exception to Khan, I think all the other teams are suspiciously good vs zerg. SKT has Bisu, Fantasy (With prep time ofc), and TheZerg (who's only reasonable match up is ZvZ, honestly). Oz? Jaedong is an autowin, Hiya fairs alright, and Lomo's specialty is Zerg -- Backho's also improved his PvZ immensely.
And let's not forget the arguable best anti zerg team (I know I know I'm biased, but hear me out): KT. KT's got Lux, formerly second best ZvZer and still capable of taking those games, Flash who has no weak match ups (he's been performing poorly lately, I'll admit, but this is all in theory and Flash is the only player who's never had an honestly weak match up), ForGG still has a sickening TvZ rate, and if he steps up he's arguably the best TvZer around. Violet, while underperforming ultra recently against the likes of Jaedong and Effort, still has shown obscenely impressive PvZs before. The only suspect players are Hoejja, who's formerly painfully bad results vZ have drastically improved, and Tempest who only seems to be able to pull out big games against good zergs (Ousting both Zero and Jaedong from GOM before).
I think if KT gets to a Bo7, and turns on even a little bit of their juice, they could absolutely trash the "depth" teams who seem to mostly rely on their Zerg line up (whereas KT's line up is 2 of each race, amusingly).
Kind of sad that their Playoff future doesn't look bright.
No one will say KT sucks if all their players would perform like they should be. Problem is we don't see them regaining their old self.
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player):
You are kidding right? As of now if you think that Much LET ALONE TEMPEST can take a game against an A class player, you are sorely mistaken.
-Movie has been demoted to B team on the CJ team so he wont be played -Shuttle? Really? -Thezerg is wildly inconsistant -ForGG Lux Hoejja and Tempest are playing GODAWFUL. I dont even know the last time Tempest was played. Lux is playing like a kid with down syndrome and ForGG flat out plays like Tossgirl.
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player): CJ: Kwanro, Effort, Savior, Much, Movie***, Skyhigh, Iris.....good (6+)
Kwanro in his last 10 = 5W 5L Savior in his last 10 = 3W 7L Much in his last 10 = 3W 7L ** Movie is on the B team as of now
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player): KTF: Flash, ForGG, Lux, Hoejja, Tempest, Violet.......good (6+)
ForGG in last 10 = 4W 6L Luxury in last 10 = 5W 5L Hojja in last 10 = 3 W 7 L Tempest in last 10 = 6 W 4 L ( suprised here )
ForGG and Lux have been slumping hard as of late, and Hoejja sucks in any matchup outside of ZvP and on the map Destination. tempest rarely gets any PL time b/c of Violet
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player):
You are kidding right? As of now if you think that Much LET ALONE TEMPEST can take a game against an A class player, you are sorely mistaken.
-Movie has been demoted to B team on the CJ team so he wont be played -Shuttle? Really? -Thezerg is wildly inconsistant -ForGG Lux Hoejja and Tempest are playing GODAWFUL. I dont even know the last time Tempest was played. Lux is playing like a kid with down syndrome and ForGG flat out plays like Tossgirl.
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player): KTF: Flash, ForGG, Lux, Hoejja, Tempest, Violet.......good (6+)
ForGG in last 10 = 4W 6L Luxury in last 10 = 5W 5L Hojja in last 10 = 3 W 7 L Tempest in last 10 = 6 W 4 L ( suprised here )
ForGG and Lux have been slumping hard as of late, and Hoejja sucks in any matchup outside of ZvP and on the map Destination. tempest rarely gets any PL time b/c of Violet
I'm talking about players who "have a realistic shot", not who would be favored against, an A-class gamer. More to the point, I think I was fairly even-handed in my estimation of the various teams; although I included some weak players on KTF (nothing gets past you), I was generous to the other teams as well. For example, I gave SKT Best and TheZerg, who are both struggling to break even in recent games. Really, unless you think I'm being biased I don't know what you're trying to say.
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player):
You are kidding right? As of now if you think that Much LET ALONE TEMPEST can take a game against an A class player, you are sorely mistaken.
-Movie has been demoted to B team on the CJ team so he wont be played -Shuttle? Really? -Thezerg is wildly inconsistant -ForGG Lux Hoejja and Tempest are playing GODAWFUL. I dont even know the last time Tempest was played. Lux is playing like a kid with down syndrome and ForGG flat out plays like Tossgirl.
I am sure you were one of those SKT>all in WL.
not at all. I understand that other factors determine who do well in WL. For example, Fantasy sucks at improvising on the spot. He needs a fixated build order and practice for him to do well. BeST has been sucking since PL round 3, and Canata and Thezerg have or were sucking at the time.
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player): KTF: Flash, ForGG, Lux, Hoejja, Tempest, Violet.......good (6+)
ForGG in last 10 = 4W 6L Luxury in last 10 = 5W 5L Hojja in last 10 = 3 W 7 L Tempest in last 10 = 6 W 4 L ( suprised here )
ForGG and Lux have been slumping hard as of late, and Hoejja sucks in any matchup outside of ZvP and on the map Destination. tempest rarely gets any PL time b/c of Violet
I'm talking about players who "have a realistic shot", not who would be favored against, an A-class gamer. More to the point, I think I was fairly even-handed in my estimation of the various teams; although I included some weak players on KTF (nothing gets past you), I was generous to the other teams as well. For example, I gave SKT Best and TheZerg, who are both struggling to break even in recent games. Really, unless you think I'm being biased I don't know what you're trying to say.
good point. Thezerg has been playing sub par and honestly, BeST sucks vs zerg. Though saying that TEMPEST or ForGG in their current states could beat for example Calm, or Iris is a mistake IMO. (Calm and iris being the hypothetical A class players.)
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player):
STX: Shuttle really can't do much :< OZ: Lomo? Really? He really isn't that great. Khan: Jangbi in his current condition really can't take anybody. SKT: TheZerg kinda sucks atm, not sure about him. Hite: type-b? Where did that come from? I guess he can take down stork and BeSt, though that's all. KT: forGG, sure, but he's wildly inconsistent, Lux is inconsistent, Hoejja is just bad, Tempest is bad when he doesn't cheese, and that makes him passable.
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player):
STX: Shuttle really can't do much :< OZ: Lomo? Really? He really isn't that great. Khan: Jangbi in his current condition really can't take anybody. SKT: TheZerg kinda sucks atm, not sure about him. Hite: type-b? Where did that come from? I guess he can take down stork and BeSt, though that's all. KT: forGG, sure, but he's wildly inconsistent, Lux is inconsistent, Hoejja is just bad, Tempest is bad when he doesn't cheese, and that makes him passable.
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player): KTF: Flash, ForGG, Lux, Hoejja, Tempest, Violet.......good (6+)
ForGG in last 10 = 4W 6L Luxury in last 10 = 5W 5L Hojja in last 10 = 3 W 7 L Tempest in last 10 = 6 W 4 L ( suprised here )
ForGG and Lux have been slumping hard as of late, and Hoejja sucks in any matchup outside of ZvP and on the map Destination. tempest rarely gets any PL time b/c of Violet
I'm talking about players who "have a realistic shot", not who would be favored against, an A-class gamer. More to the point, I think I was fairly even-handed in my estimation of the various teams; although I included some weak players on KTF (nothing gets past you), I was generous to the other teams as well. For example, I gave SKT Best and TheZerg, who are both struggling to break even in recent games. Really, unless you think I'm being biased I don't know what you're trying to say.
NOT WHO WILL WIN vs an A class but.. who has the 10% outside chance. The dark horse. The Hoejja > Bisu.
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player):
STX: Shuttle really can't do much :< OZ: Lomo? Really? He really isn't that great. Khan: Jangbi in his current condition really can't take anybody. SKT: TheZerg kinda sucks atm, not sure about him. Hite: type-b? Where did that come from? I guess he can take down stork and BeSt, though that's all. KT: forGG, sure, but he's wildly inconsistent, Lux is inconsistent, Hoejja is just bad, Tempest is bad when he doesn't cheese, and that makes him passable.
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player): KTF: Flash, ForGG, Lux, Hoejja, Tempest, Violet.......good (6+)
ForGG in last 10 = 4W 6L Luxury in last 10 = 5W 5L Hojja in last 10 = 3 W 7 L Tempest in last 10 = 6 W 4 L ( suprised here )
ForGG and Lux have been slumping hard as of late, and Hoejja sucks in any matchup outside of ZvP and on the map Destination. tempest rarely gets any PL time b/c of Violet
I'm talking about players who "have a realistic shot", not who would be favored against, an A-class gamer. More to the point, I think I was fairly even-handed in my estimation of the various teams; although I included some weak players on KTF (nothing gets past you), I was generous to the other teams as well. For example, I gave SKT Best and TheZerg, who are both struggling to break even in recent games. Really, unless you think I'm being biased I don't know what you're trying to say.
NOT WHO WILL WIN vs an A class but.. who has the 10% outside chance. The dark horse. The Hoejja > Bisu.
Exactly what I mean; Bisu is the better player by far, but if a team can field a six-man line-up whose weakest link is Hoejja, they are setting themselves up to get lucky.
I thought it was sometime soon - Porleague was supposed to be played Saturday too and it was played early Saturday morning - This supposed to be played Saturday too and normally played about this time, early in the morning - even though it's Sunday atm.. but no news of it going on..
On July 05 2009 17:26 Sosha wrote: so i mean.. when's this being played?!!?
I thought it was sometime soon - Porleague was supposed to be played Saturday too and it was played early Saturday morning - This supposed to be played Saturday too and normally played about this time, early in the morning - even though it's Sunday atm.. but no news of it going on..
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player):
STX: Shuttle really can't do much :< OZ: Lomo? Really? He really isn't that great. Khan: Jangbi in his current condition really can't take anybody. SKT: TheZerg kinda sucks atm, not sure about him. Hite: type-b? Where did that come from? I guess he can take down stork and BeSt, though that's all. KT: forGG, sure, but he's wildly inconsistent, Lux is inconsistent, Hoejja is just bad, Tempest is bad when he doesn't cheese, and that makes him passable.
read Djabanete's reply
On July 05 2009 11:03 Djabanete wrote:
On July 05 2009 10:46 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player): KTF: Flash, ForGG, Lux, Hoejja, Tempest, Violet.......good (6+)
ForGG in last 10 = 4W 6L Luxury in last 10 = 5W 5L Hojja in last 10 = 3 W 7 L Tempest in last 10 = 6 W 4 L ( suprised here )
ForGG and Lux have been slumping hard as of late, and Hoejja sucks in any matchup outside of ZvP and on the map Destination. tempest rarely gets any PL time b/c of Violet
I'm talking about players who "have a realistic shot", not who would be favored against, an A-class gamer. More to the point, I think I was fairly even-handed in my estimation of the various teams; although I included some weak players on KTF (nothing gets past you), I was generous to the other teams as well. For example, I gave SKT Best and TheZerg, who are both struggling to break even in recent games. Really, unless you think I'm being biased I don't know what you're trying to say.
NOT WHO WILL WIN vs an A class but.. who has the 10% outside chance. The dark horse. The Hoejja > Bisu.
Exactly what I mean; Bisu is the better player by far, but if a team can field a six-man line-up whose weakest link is Hoejja, they are setting themselves up to get lucky.
which is great, but really blurs the line between teams with real depth, and those who kind of have depth.
For example CJ vs KT
Effort/Flash, sKyHigh/Violet <- At this point its pretty even with perhaps a slight edge to KT much/forgg, iris/luxury <- here it starts to break down kwanro/hoejja, savior/tempest <- here it really really breaks down.
While both teams have 6 players who have a chance of winning vs A class players, CJ has a much stronger 6 man roster.
As an addendum, I would almost certainly pick hite as a deeper team than KT even with one less player listed on your chart
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player): KTF: Flash, ForGG, Lux, Hoejja, Tempest, Violet.......good (6+)
ForGG in last 10 = 4W 6L Luxury in last 10 = 5W 5L Hojja in last 10 = 3 W 7 L Tempest in last 10 = 6 W 4 L ( suprised here )
ForGG and Lux have been slumping hard as of late, and Hoejja sucks in any matchup outside of ZvP and on the map Destination. tempest rarely gets any PL time b/c of Violet
fOrGG had an awful WL, but since then he's been okay. He's an A-class gamer though, and look at who he's played recently in proleague:
UpMagic (top TvTer - WIN) Leta (top TvTer - loss) Light (another A-class, solid TvT - loss) EffOrt (top five player right now - loss)
And in the leagues:
OSL Prelims - Miracle (KHAN do anything? - loss) MSL - Much (2x cheesy wins), Pure (1x cheesy loss), advances.
He's not really been playing much recently, and the last week or so he's definitely been playing very well. I'd say he definitely can win games.
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player):
STX: Shuttle really can't do much :< OZ: Lomo? Really? He really isn't that great. Khan: Jangbi in his current condition really can't take anybody. SKT: TheZerg kinda sucks atm, not sure about him. Hite: type-b? Where did that come from? I guess he can take down stork and BeSt, though that's all. KT: forGG, sure, but he's wildly inconsistent, Lux is inconsistent, Hoejja is just bad, Tempest is bad when he doesn't cheese, and that makes him passable.
read Djabanete's reply
On July 05 2009 11:03 Djabanete wrote:
On July 05 2009 10:46 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player): KTF: Flash, ForGG, Lux, Hoejja, Tempest, Violet.......good (6+)
ForGG in last 10 = 4W 6L Luxury in last 10 = 5W 5L Hojja in last 10 = 3 W 7 L Tempest in last 10 = 6 W 4 L ( suprised here )
ForGG and Lux have been slumping hard as of late, and Hoejja sucks in any matchup outside of ZvP and on the map Destination. tempest rarely gets any PL time b/c of Violet
I'm talking about players who "have a realistic shot", not who would be favored against, an A-class gamer. More to the point, I think I was fairly even-handed in my estimation of the various teams; although I included some weak players on KTF (nothing gets past you), I was generous to the other teams as well. For example, I gave SKT Best and TheZerg, who are both struggling to break even in recent games. Really, unless you think I'm being biased I don't know what you're trying to say.
NOT WHO WILL WIN vs an A class but.. who has the 10% outside chance. The dark horse. The Hoejja > Bisu.
Exactly what I mean; Bisu is the better player by far, but if a team can field a six-man line-up whose weakest link is Hoejja, they are setting themselves up to get lucky.
which is great, but really blurs the line between teams with real depth, and those who kind of have depth.
For example CJ vs KT
Effort/Flash, sKyHigh/Violet <- At this point its pretty even with perhaps a slight edge to KT much/forgg, iris/luxury <- here it starts to break down kwanro/hoejja, savior/tempest <- here it really really breaks down.
While both teams have 6 players who have a chance of winning vs A class players, CJ has a much stronger 6 man roster.
As an addendum, I would almost certainly pick hite as a deeper team than KT even with one less player listed on your chart
Yeah.
That list is kind of lame though. You seemed to list every KT player versus their worst match up for those odd brackets (Hoejja vs Z, Savior ZvPing, ForGG tvp, Luxury ZvT, Flash TvZ, Violet PvT).
They aren't all the best match up for CJ but that list seems off. I know I'm a KT fan so I might sound a little bias but if you rearrange that list it comes out looking a lot better. Stuff like Hoejja vs Savior, Tempest vs Kwanro, Lux vs Much and ForGG vs Iris would look a lot better.
Just a nitpick though. It's not worth arguing that CJ has more realized depth than KT -- it's obviously true. KT just has and always will be the best team on paper/in theory/potentially. I think they'd make a good finals showing if only because their team, individually, has a pretty strong record against Zergs -- especially non-S class or S-Class MU zergs (Jaedong is S-Class, Yarnc is S-Class ZvT, July is s-class ZvP, etc).
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player):
STX: Shuttle really can't do much :< OZ: Lomo? Really? He really isn't that great. Khan: Jangbi in his current condition really can't take anybody. SKT: TheZerg kinda sucks atm, not sure about him. Hite: type-b? Where did that come from? I guess he can take down stork and BeSt, though that's all. KT: forGG, sure, but he's wildly inconsistent, Lux is inconsistent, Hoejja is just bad, Tempest is bad when he doesn't cheese, and that makes him passable.
read Djabanete's reply
On July 05 2009 11:03 Djabanete wrote:
On July 05 2009 10:46 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player): KTF: Flash, ForGG, Lux, Hoejja, Tempest, Violet.......good (6+)
ForGG in last 10 = 4W 6L Luxury in last 10 = 5W 5L Hojja in last 10 = 3 W 7 L Tempest in last 10 = 6 W 4 L ( suprised here )
ForGG and Lux have been slumping hard as of late, and Hoejja sucks in any matchup outside of ZvP and on the map Destination. tempest rarely gets any PL time b/c of Violet
I'm talking about players who "have a realistic shot", not who would be favored against, an A-class gamer. More to the point, I think I was fairly even-handed in my estimation of the various teams; although I included some weak players on KTF (nothing gets past you), I was generous to the other teams as well. For example, I gave SKT Best and TheZerg, who are both struggling to break even in recent games. Really, unless you think I'm being biased I don't know what you're trying to say.
NOT WHO WILL WIN vs an A class but.. who has the 10% outside chance. The dark horse. The Hoejja > Bisu.
Exactly what I mean; Bisu is the better player by far, but if a team can field a six-man line-up whose weakest link is Hoejja, they are setting themselves up to get lucky.
which is great, but really blurs the line between teams with real depth, and those who kind of have depth.
For example CJ vs KT
Effort/Flash, sKyHigh/Violet <- At this point its pretty even with perhaps a slight edge to KT much/forgg, iris/luxury <- here it starts to break down kwanro/hoejja, savior/tempest <- here it really really breaks down.
While both teams have 6 players who have a chance of winning vs A class players, CJ has a much stronger 6 man roster.
As an addendum, I would almost certainly pick hite as a deeper team than KT even with one less player listed on your chart
Yeah.
That list is kind of lame though. You seemed to list every KT player versus their worst match up for those odd brackets (Hoejja vs Z, Savior ZvPing, ForGG tvp, Luxury ZvT, Flash TvZ, Violet PvT).
They aren't all the best match up for CJ but that list seems off. I know I'm a KT fan so I might sound a little bias but if you rearrange that list it comes out looking a lot better. Stuff like Hoejja vs Savior, Tempest vs Kwanro, Lux vs Much and ForGG vs Iris would look a lot better.
Just a nitpick though. It's not worth arguing that CJ has more realized depth than KT -- it's obviously true. KT just has and always will be the best team on paper/in theory/potentially. I think they'd make a good finals showing if only because their team, individually, has a pretty strong record against Zergs -- especially non-S class or S-Class MU zergs (Jaedong is S-Class, Yarnc is S-Class ZvT, July is s-class ZvP, etc).
I would say that hoejja has a small lead on savior, kwanro is far better than tempest, much is currently better than luc, and iris is doing far better than forgg.
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player):
STX: Shuttle really can't do much :< OZ: Lomo? Really? He really isn't that great. Khan: Jangbi in his current condition really can't take anybody. SKT: TheZerg kinda sucks atm, not sure about him. Hite: type-b? Where did that come from? I guess he can take down stork and BeSt, though that's all. KT: forGG, sure, but he's wildly inconsistent, Lux is inconsistent, Hoejja is just bad, Tempest is bad when he doesn't cheese, and that makes him passable.
read Djabanete's reply
On July 05 2009 11:03 Djabanete wrote:
On July 05 2009 10:46 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
On July 05 2009 05:42 Djabanete wrote: In terms of Bo7 depth.... (listing only players that have a realistic shot at winning against an A-class player): KTF: Flash, ForGG, Lux, Hoejja, Tempest, Violet.......good (6+)
ForGG in last 10 = 4W 6L Luxury in last 10 = 5W 5L Hojja in last 10 = 3 W 7 L Tempest in last 10 = 6 W 4 L ( suprised here )
ForGG and Lux have been slumping hard as of late, and Hoejja sucks in any matchup outside of ZvP and on the map Destination. tempest rarely gets any PL time b/c of Violet
I'm talking about players who "have a realistic shot", not who would be favored against, an A-class gamer. More to the point, I think I was fairly even-handed in my estimation of the various teams; although I included some weak players on KTF (nothing gets past you), I was generous to the other teams as well. For example, I gave SKT Best and TheZerg, who are both struggling to break even in recent games. Really, unless you think I'm being biased I don't know what you're trying to say.
NOT WHO WILL WIN vs an A class but.. who has the 10% outside chance. The dark horse. The Hoejja > Bisu.
Exactly what I mean; Bisu is the better player by far, but if a team can field a six-man line-up whose weakest link is Hoejja, they are setting themselves up to get lucky.
which is great, but really blurs the line between teams with real depth, and those who kind of have depth.
For example CJ vs KT
Effort/Flash, sKyHigh/Violet <- At this point its pretty even with perhaps a slight edge to KT much/forgg, iris/luxury <- here it starts to break down kwanro/hoejja, savior/tempest <- here it really really breaks down.
While both teams have 6 players who have a chance of winning vs A class players, CJ has a much stronger 6 man roster.
As an addendum, I would almost certainly pick hite as a deeper team than KT even with one less player listed on your chart
You're right, I agree than CJ has a stronger 6-person front than KT, hands down --- unless Lux and ForGG were to (miraculously) return to form. I'd call things even then.
Great OP guys, love the effect. Pretty excited to see the VOD's of this tomorrow, this match doesn't really mean much to CJ, but it has the potential for some exciting games.
On July 06 2009 16:14 p4NDemik wrote: Great OP guys, love the effect. Pretty excited to see the VOD's of this tomorrow, this match doesn't really mean much to CJ, but it has the potential for some exciting games.
another sc2gg original getting recruited by TL congrats on blue
On July 06 2009 16:14 p4NDemik wrote: Great OP guys, love the effect. Pretty excited to see the VOD's of this tomorrow, this match doesn't really mean much to CJ, but it has the potential for some exciting games.
Best seems to be OK vs Terran, but Iris is no pushover Fantasy v Skyhigh can go either way IMO (although Fantasy is on an impressive streak and skyhigh hasn't been doing too well lately despite how good I think he is) Expecting a Bisu win but no clue how good Snow is Dunno about Savior or Hyuk but Savior's ZvZ is pretty lacking
mostly looking forward for some potentially good games
My predictions are sKyHigh>fantasy Though I might be a little biased, I do think sKyHigh can put up a good fight and hopefully he will win. Snow<Bisu Bisu should win this, because I don't think Snow has alot of experience playing with a high level Toss. Iris>BeSt I'm not really sure about this one, but I'll give Iris the benefit of the doubt. sAviOr<Hyuk sAviOr's ZvZ is shaky, so I'll give Hyuk the benefit of the doubt, cause his seems better. EffOrt>Bisu Even though Bisu probably will come out on top, I'll choose EffOrt instead, because his ZvP isn't that bad.
*sighs* i appreciate the livestream of the SKT vs CJ game, but the chinese commentary ruins the experience. not because its in chinese, but because im not hearing the familiar korean commentary, and theres no ingame audio! hearing mines go off and tanks pop makes it much more enjoyable.
On July 06 2009 18:52 Simple wrote: *sighs* i appreciate the livestream of the SKT vs CJ game, but the chinese commentary ruins the experience. not because its in chinese, but because im not hearing the familiar korean commentary, and theres no ingame audio! hearing mines go off and tanks pop makes it much more enjoyable.
On July 06 2009 18:52 Simple wrote: *sighs* i appreciate the livestream of the SKT vs CJ game, but the chinese commentary ruins the experience. not because its in chinese, but because im not hearing the familiar korean commentary, and theres no ingame audio! hearing mines go off and tanks pop makes it much more enjoyable.
Fantasy cleared the contain, guess he can be a little bit ahead now. I'm laughing @ those who were writing 'gg' on the konadora's stream chat. Hahaha, fools, it's fantasy. EDIT : And now it's fantasy who has the initative !
On July 06 2009 18:52 Simple wrote: *sighs* i appreciate the livestream of the SKT vs CJ game, but the chinese commentary ruins the experience. not because its in chinese, but because im not hearing the familiar korean commentary, and theres no ingame audio! hearing mines go off and tanks pop makes it much more enjoyable.
Have you got the volume really low or something? The in-game audio is pretty clear for me.
On July 06 2009 18:56 crucifix wrote: Fantasy cleared the contain, guess he can be a little bit ahead now. I'm laughing @ those who were writing 'gg' on the konadora's stream chat. Hahaha, fools, it's fantasy. EDIT : And now it's fantasy who has the initative !
skyhigh using a tank/wraith combo to push towards fantasy's expansion at 3. bases even atm but skyhigh has had his for longer. (oh wait skyhigh has +1)
skyhigh's tanks in range of the cc now, fantasy lifts. skyhigh also trying to push through the middle.
It should be over for fantasy but since it's TvT there's still going to be at least another 10 minutes. ok just as I write that some weird stuff happens
I thought the tank pushes were really good. Fantasy was behind economically but he almost seemed to take back the game. Using that science facility to take the hits from the turrets and then drop into SkyHigh's main was pretty pimp. It was a good game to me imo.
On July 06 2009 19:13 Marine50 wrote: thank god fantasy lost. I was worried when that big drop happened
Skyhigh was two bases ahead, he even started rebuilding the facs
Actually, Skyhigh was 3 bases ahead. He had that 3rd one at the 1'o clock expansion. But either way, he had massive advantage over Fantasy. Great game nonetheless!
On July 06 2009 19:18 deathgod6 wrote: I thought the tank pushes were really good. Fantasy was behind economically but he almost seemed to take back the game. Using that science facility to take the hits from the turrets and then drop into SkyHigh's main was pretty pimp. It was a good game to me imo.
edit- even though Fantasy lost.
that science facilities was crazy. I would have thought the turret ai would change its targets to the dropships, but I guess since dropships don't attack they just attacked the first thing that come to them
On July 06 2009 19:18 deathgod6 wrote: I thought the tank pushes were really good. Fantasy was behind economically but he almost seemed to take back the game. Using that science facility to take the hits from the turrets and then drop into SkyHigh's main was pretty pimp. It was a good game to me imo.
edit- even though Fantasy lost.
fantasy was never close to taking that game back lol
On July 06 2009 19:21 latent wrote: Hmm...there's no link in the intro to the actual feed...just konadora's link. Anyone have a direct link to MBC's feed?
I thought that was a pretty nice showing by Snow. He shouldn't have lost that first Shuttle (got greedy trying to get an extra hit) and if he had watched his DTs he could have killed that Reaver instead of getting killed by them. Those two things could have changed a lot in the game.
On July 06 2009 20:08 ondik wrote: how can you be so BAD best?
so bad even a D player can decode his PvT style.
So if I'm a D player I can't say that walking into mines which he knew were there was effin terrible? Just before he lost those three goons I was like "ok, there is NO way Best could lose to this 2 fact, Iris doesn't even have siege yet, and with FE he's going to walk over macro style" oh well..
On July 06 2009 20:09 Metallingus wrote: DT giving one-trick-pony-Protoss some breathing room, but Iris'd have to pull some pretty dumb shit to lose this.
On July 06 2009 20:33 SilverSkyLark wrote: Hey uhm, I think it would have been better if Iris imitated what Mind did against best on this map, fake fd then 2 fac.
I don't think it would have mattered because Best still didn't see the 2 fac coming. He didn't even build an AI pylon or send his goons out to stall for time. Sure he saw with the probe that he jumped through that there was no CC at the nat, but it could have also been fast dropship or the CC building inside his main.
Savior's mutalisks of doom, the very same ones that destroyed countless foes who stood in his path are now roaming the skies, looking for the defectors of the Swarm to kill.
The Maestro is now capitalizing on the fact that Hyuk is behind in economy, so he takes this opportunity to expand himself, while getting spore colonies just to be on the safe side. A very wise decision.
it hurts to say that... but saviour should think about retiring. he just has lost all his magic, his confidence, his mechanics and his gamesense. the longer he continues with that the more his legacy will fade away. he should focus on coaching effort and stop playing himself imho.
On July 06 2009 20:57 Black Gun wrote: it hurts to say that... but saviour should think about retiring. he just has lost all his magic, his confidence, his mechanics and his gamesense. the longer he continues with that the more his legacy will fade away. he should focus on coaching effort and stop playing himself imho.
how can you say that? he will destroy everyone in 2009. fool!
On July 06 2009 20:57 Black Gun wrote: it hurts to say that... but saviour should think about retiring. he just has lost all his magic, his confidence, his mechanics and his gamesense. the longer he continues with that the more his legacy will fade away. he should focus on coaching effort and stop playing himself imho.
Theres like one of these posts every thread with savior playing lol.
On July 06 2009 20:57 Black Gun wrote: it hurts to say that... but saviour should think about retiring. he just has lost all his magic, his confidence, his mechanics and his gamesense. the longer he continues with that the more his legacy will fade away. he should focus on coaching effort and stop playing himself imho.
Theres like one of these posts every thread with savior playing lol.
On July 06 2009 20:57 Black Gun wrote: it hurts to say that... but saviour should think about retiring. he just has lost all his magic, his confidence, his mechanics and his gamesense. the longer he continues with that the more his legacy will fade away. he should focus on coaching effort and stop playing himself imho.
On July 06 2009 20:57 Black Gun wrote: it hurts to say that... but saviour should think about retiring. he just has lost all his magic, his confidence, his mechanics and his gamesense. the longer he continues with that the more his legacy will fade away. he should focus on coaching effort and stop playing himself imho.
Someone says this EVERY time he loses a game and every time he wins one people say hes makin a come back, its rather amusing.
On July 06 2009 20:57 Black Gun wrote: it hurts to say that... but saviour should think about retiring. he just has lost all his magic, his confidence, his mechanics and his gamesense. the longer he continues with that the more his legacy will fade away. he should focus on coaching effort and stop playing himself imho.
man.. he lost after he destroyed opponent's nat.. what wouldn't be so terrible IF it wasn't ZvZ and IF it wasn't SKT zerg lol. That's even worse than what Iris did.
he should just stop playing until SC2 comes out, or just stop playing in proleague for a while so he doesn't hurt his record any further. Or just learn how to Z v Z.
I don't know what to think of Savior anymore. There used to be a time when I hated him, due to him beating my favorite tosses and the annoyance of his fanboys. But now I just cringe when I watch him. It's just so sad to see a legend falling so low.
On July 06 2009 20:57 Black Gun wrote: it hurts to say that... but saviour should think about retiring. he just has lost all his magic, his confidence, his mechanics and his gamesense. the longer he continues with that the more his legacy will fade away. he should focus on coaching effort and stop playing himself imho.
Someone says this EVERY time he loses a game and every time he wins one people say hes makin a come back, its rather amusing.
Methinks the BeSt hate is a bit much today. If he knows people can't stop him once he gets 2base arbs up, then pursuing that build isn't such a horrible idea.
Best showed both his strength and weakness today. So I guess you can say he's both worth bashing and worth complimenting.
His weakness is inability to adjust. Even after knowing Iris didn't expand following 14 Nex, Best still didn't stop probe production to get a bigger army to deal with the first push. All he had to do was make a few more goons and he would've won the game right there. Instead he fucked up, lost his goons to mines, and lost his natural.
His strength is being able to macro up an army that overruns the terran line when the terran has the ECON ADVANTAGE. How that happens I have no fucking idea. Not even Stork or Bisu, given 3-base vs 3-base, will just march in and overruns the terran army head on. That's just sick, sick macro.
On July 06 2009 21:26 baubo wrote: I don't know what to think of Savior anymore. There used to be a time when I hated him, due to him beating my favorite tosses and the annoyance of his fanboys. But now I just cringe when I watch him. It's just so sad to see a legend falling so low.
On July 06 2009 22:37 baubo wrote: Best showed both his strength and weakness today. So I guess you can say he's both worth bashing and worth complimenting.
His weakness is inability to adjust. Even after knowing Iris didn't expand following 14 Nex, Best still didn't stop probe production to get a bigger army to deal with the first push. All he had to do was make a few more goons and he would've won the game right there. Instead he fucked up, lost his goons to mines, and lost his natural.
His strength is being able to macro up an army that overruns the terran line when the terran has the ECON ADVANTAGE. How that happens I have no fucking idea. Not even Stork or Bisu, given 3-base vs 3-base, will just march in and overruns the terran army head on. That's just sick, sick macro.
Iris just had to turtle, Best couldnt have overrun
Nice play by Best, I'm impressed. On the other hand though, I would be quite disappointed in him if he lost, seeing how long he has to prepare for just this match.
well since savior lose to failzerg,then hes a real failzerg.Hes destroyed by every1 the year 2009.
seriously i dont know how saviour lost after hyuk lost the nat,when hyuk spend 300 ,he lost the nat later.When savior spend 300,he lost the game LOL.During the time where they showed both FP view ,i notice savior has like 6 muta where hyuk has 12,is it because hyuk mine the gas from the nat? is this the only reason why savior has lesser gas??
this might be the key where hyuk made the right decision,MJY didnt though of that...
SkyHigh played really well, i thought that no other terran could beat fantasy now. other than that there were no surprises, im amazed if Savior's loss was a surprise to someone..
On July 07 2009 00:20 pripple wrote: SkyHigh played really well, i thought that no other terran could beat fantasy now. other than that there were no surprises, im amazed if Savior's loss was a surprise to someone..
On July 07 2009 00:20 pripple wrote: SkyHigh played really well, i thought that no other terran could beat fantasy now. other than that there were no surprises, im amazed if Savior's loss was a surprise to someone..
On July 07 2009 04:57 3 Lions wrote: recommended games?
All of the are worth watching but most impressing game was BeSt vs Iris and awesome comeback shit sAviOr losing game he could easily win and sKyHigh breaking fantasy's winning streak :}
On July 06 2009 20:53 konadora wrote: NEXT TIME, SAVIOR
I STILL BELIEVE IN YOUUUUUUUUUUU
how naive....
i'm surprised cj is still sending savior out in the proleague, especially when cj now has 2 beastly zerg players, effort and kwanro... i guess it had something to do with publicity or to justify the salary they pay to savior : /
i'd weep everytime i see old legends fall and slowly fading away, then savior had to give every fan of his false hope by making bold statements like "i'm gonna destroy everyone in 2009"
On July 06 2009 20:53 konadora wrote: NEXT TIME, SAVIOR
I STILL BELIEVE IN YOUUUUUUUUUUU
how naive....
i'm surprised cj is still sending savior out in the proleague, especially when cj now has 2 beastly zerg players, effort and kwanro... i guess it had something to do with publicity or to justify the salary they pay to savior : /
i'd weep everytime i see old legends fall and slowly fading away, then savior had to give every fan of his false hope by making bold statements like "i'm gonna destroy everyone in 2009"
don't say it if u can't make it happen....
oh *facepalm* you are really missing the point. And by beating Bisu and FBH in 2009, the maestro destroyed what really mattered
On July 07 2009 07:16 Avidkeystamper wrote: Lol, who are you to rain on his parade? People aren't stupid, they're just excited for their legends.
Yeah. I only started watching SC about a year ago, and my favorite player was the then-rising-star BeSt. He may be past his prime, but seeing him win games still brings a smile to my face. I can see why many would have the same sentiment for Savior.
On July 06 2009 20:53 konadora wrote: NEXT TIME, SAVIOR
I STILL BELIEVE IN YOUUUUUUUUUUU
how naive....
i'm surprised cj is still sending savior out in the proleague, especially when cj now has 2 beastly zerg players, effort and kwanro... i guess it had something to do with publicity or to justify the salary they pay to savior : /
i'd weep everytime i see old legends fall and slowly fading away, then savior had to give every fan of his false hope by making bold statements like "i'm gonna destroy everyone in 2009"
don't say it if u can't make it happen....
you really think CJ is sending out savior because of publicity? I am sure savior is doing good in practice, he just has the bad luck of getting always a zerg...
On July 07 2009 08:07 Mykill wrote: savior NEEDS to practise ZvZ with kwanro and effort. its sad because they put him on zerg favoured maps which the other team also sends out zerg
It's weird how bad his decision-making is. It's one thing to lose because younger players can muta micro better than you. But he didn't even lose to that.
The FPV of each player right before Savior's attack show Savior with 5 mutas and Hyuk with 11... And then Savior scouted Hyuk with a ling... And then he attacked!? And I went WTF!?
On July 06 2009 20:53 konadora wrote: NEXT TIME, SAVIOR
I STILL BELIEVE IN YOUUUUUUUUUUU
how naive....
i'm surprised cj is still sending savior out in the proleague, especially when cj now has 2 beastly zerg players, effort and kwanro... i guess it had something to do with publicity or to justify the salary they pay to savior : /
i'd weep everytime i see old legends fall and slowly fading away, then savior had to give every fan of his false hope by making bold statements like "i'm gonna destroy everyone in 2009"
don't say it if u can't make it happen....
-__-
CJ probably expected another player (probably Bisu, since he played quite often on Outsider), can't be helped that sAviOr faced a zerg and lost. And nobody needs to say this but everyone knows how bad his ZvZ is.
There was a time where as bad as Savior's zvz was compared to his other matchups he was still the best zvz in the world. And even at the height of his slump his zvz could still be counted on to get the odd win. But the amount that players have grown in that matchup (not just simple things like muta micro vs scourge, but things like the calculations on how many lings to get and when, when to attack and things like that have all improved). I'm nowhere near a talented enough player to list out every change in approach, but I think any close looking viewer can look at a top level zvz user from a year ago vs a mid level zvz user and just see this amazing gap not just in build order or macro or micro, but in fundamental understanding of what to do at every moment. People might think I'm reaching a bit, but I havent seen any real decline in savior's zvz, just a tremendous upswing in the zvz of other players. Because of this he cant be called one of the top 5 zvzs anymore.
On July 07 2009 10:35 AzureEye wrote: Even if CJ expected Bisu for the 4th set, I would say Effort has more chance of beating Bisu than Savior would, no?
Yes, but effort has other things to practice for. CJ as a team is in a place where lots of players are still in individual leagues and need to perform while in PL, this match isnt quite as important. Sending out Snow and Savior and hoping for a snipe isnt entirely a bad move although they did get a bit unlucky with the lineups.
I think this is just a move by CJ to prevent effort in particular from getting worn out, and they have been rotating their other players throughout the season as well (whether this is because of practice rankigs or something else I cant say for sure).
I believe Mobile Rival Battle was an exhibition match between KTF and SKT during one of the breaks, as in the past they were considered rivals of some sorts. I believe that was the game that Flash owned Best when the two swapped races.
What? You guys didn't recommend Iris vs Best? That was sick! I mean, the god-mine, the EMP dodge, the onetiming... You know Best had so few opportunities to get back into the game but to make a switch like that in one move... How isn't it recommended... -_-;; It was a good classy game.
On July 07 2009 12:27 SuperJongMan wrote: What? You guys didn't recommend Iris vs Best? That was sick! I mean, the god-mine, the EMP dodge, the onetiming... You know Best had so few opportunities to get back into the game but to make a switch like that in one move... How isn't it recommended... -_-;; It was a good classy game.
Agreed, that was a very entertaining game. Honestly, I think the OP simply forgot to edit it in.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/maincopy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/skyfantacopy.jpg)
sKyHigh <Shades of Twilight>![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/irisbestcopy.jpg)
BeSt![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/snowbisucopy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/saviorhcopy.jpg)
sAviOr <Outsider>![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/acecopy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i39.tinypic.com/sxm4on.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i39.tinypic.com/14avuv8.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3997/68ssq8.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/gnuboard4/data/file/gallery/1964308273_33091897_P09060400228129.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images50.fotosik.pl/157/9e2573d745253e5c.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/dankaroo/bestmanpylons.jpg)
