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On March 25 2009 16:51 Samurai- wrote:Show nested quote +I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed. (c) Michael Jordan I have no idea how some people see that Flash played like shit.. Yes, he lost, but sometimes you loose, no matter how good you play, since your opponent plays better.. It was a great game that could turn either way, and i think you should all leave it at that...
best comment of all
also: he switched from lurkling to hydraling, he could've switched back easily.(although I agree...he may not had melee upgrades, but that's just a assumption(spelling?) ). And yeah, he didn't cast that many dark swarms, but guess why? he cast a lot of plagues, re-watch it pls, JD had enough defilers...and that number would've been even greater if flash had tanks 
But yeah, tanks could have helped Flash, I dont deny that, it's just that JD played incredible and I dont think a few tanks would've saved Flash, or any other Terran.
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On March 25 2009 14:13 SimonB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2009 14:02 koreasilver wrote:On March 25 2009 14:00 SimonB wrote:On March 25 2009 13:49 EternaLEnVy wrote:On March 25 2009 13:39 SimonB wrote:
Maybe I was a bit too crude when I said Flash played like absolute shit. He played decently (though I would still contend not close to his recent TvZ) through the first 15 minutes.
After that though, it was pretty bad. I'll reiterate, 20 vessels lost in the span of 10 minutes (and that's only caught on the observer!). It wasn't the kind where he plagued the whole lot and got them with a mutalisk either. It was in isolated cases each of malaise and terrible control. His micro was terrible. His macro looked pretty lousy from what I saw too. Zerg should not be able to compete with Terran on equal bases. Lack of tanks is one indication of failure on Flash's part, but it was more than that. He failed on multiple fronts. He had all the advantages; he should've been able to win. Jaedong played well, but he did not play at some kind of super level that excuses Flash's play. Obviously what you saw was not the game, since the observers pointed out how Flash was keeping his macro up despite everything. His barracks were always flashing, ALL of them, this was shown by the observers. Saying that Jaedong played well is quite funny actually, Jaedong played like a god, i'm sure even Jaedong agrees with me here inside. I'm sure Flash prepared lots for this series, especially for the chance to beat Jaedong. His multi tasking wasn't able to keep up with Jaedongs, as we saw multiple times, this is a case of Flash just not being good enough to keep up, not that he had wasn't playing at his best. Tell me how the observer was letting everybody know his macro was keeping up. They occasionally looked at his barracks every two minutes? Is that what you call macro? Did you even notice how he constantly conjured up mnm troops and a few science vessals regardless of how Jaedong constantly killed them? JD constantly killing pitiful isolated groups of units only proves my point further. He had no "critical mass" anywhere and he only had three passes to guard. 4 base terran can conjure up armies in no time.
I just have to comment on this, I didn't see anyone mention this yet. Besides pointing out how you are kind of dumb.
The reason jaedong killed quite a few isolated groups was because flash was putting on INSANE pressure, I swear to god every moment there was tons of fighting, Flash was running up every ramp shutting down expos, I think his main downfall was when he was harassing and killing the gas at 2, is that he didn't try to kill 8, which had a nydus, so it might not of happened anyway.
Flash HAD to keep attacking, he needed to shut down Jaedongs gas's so that Jaedong didn't gain momentum and destroy flash. Jaedong put up some amazing defenses on a bunch of different angles showing an insane level of multitasking which allowed him to handle what any other Zerg would of failed at. If Jaedong spent the time macroing up a huge blob, then he would of given up his pressure, Jaedong would of secured 4/5 gases and Flash would of been done.
Flash had damn good macro that game, its just Jaedong was able to endure and overcome in the end, with some insane play. and Flash was never truly running 4 bases. He had 3 at one point, but when he had all 4 right before Jaedong killed them and won the game, his main was definitely shot, and his nat was probably done as well, it was about 23 minutes in.
He wasn't running 4 bases, until Jaedong regained control, and when you have hydra lurker ling defiler coming down on your 2 just established bases, you are a dead man.
And of course he didn't make tanks, thats what SKTerran is about -_-
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but yeah, that was one of the best games I have seen in a while, and I owe that to PX <3 nice reccommendation.
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On March 25 2009 22:03 ASAzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2009 13:18 koreasilver wrote:
If you can't see the difference between the two games, then you're helpless.
Flash killed Jaedong's fourth twice, and for periods of time, he was running on more bases than Jaedong. He also won many fights compared to Hwasin, who lost every single fight he engaged in. Flash noticed Jaedong's hydralisks when he was running 4 bases (4 gas) vs. Jaedong's 3 bases (3 gas). Jaedong did get his fourth back up for the third time shortly after, but Flash still had the economic advantage. He also already had a factory with a machine shop attached to it at that point. If he began producing siege tanks after seeing the hydralisks, he could have easily made Jaedong's hydralurk unit composition much less effective. Once a zerg commits to hydralurk, it is difficult to change unit composition effectively, and Flash had the resources to make a third starport for vessals while he was running on four bases; he easily had the resources required to make tanks off of two factories while also producing vessals off of two ports.
Jaedong didn't prevent Flash from taking expansions at all. It was 4 base vs 4 base for like 6 minutes, and Jaedong did not have 6-7 bases; he only got up to 5 at the end of the game. Flash only lost his expansions when the game was already lost, and why would Flash need to take more expansions when he's running on the same number of expansions as Jaedong? Flash had the advantage during the mid to early late game, but because he stubbornly stuck with SK Terran when Jaedong switched to hydralurk with plague, he started to lose most of the fights and Jaedong eventually won due to it. You're seriously stupid for thinking Flash didn't need to expand when he was about to run out of mineral. To produce a big enough army to even just repel Jaedong's, Flash constantly needs 3-4 bases. Flash need to gain 2-3 more epansions during the hydra-lurk late game because his main and natural were about to get mined out. Did you see how he had to distant mine at the end? Jaedong prevented him from taking more expansions hence he was unable to produce enough troops and lost the game. And Jaedong did have more than 5 bases. Remember also that Flash was late to take down Jaedong 's expansion at 8 o'clock-ish. At the time, Jaedong already had hatcheries throughout most of the map. Flash, on the other hand, was stuck on his main, natural, and the expansion that he eventually take from Jaedong. Flash was able to win the early battles because Jaedong was busy expanding to gain more economic advantage. Just because Flash won the battles doesn't mean he had the overall advantage.
Did you even watch the right game? Flash's third and fourth still had healthy mineral patches, and he never distant mined; the scvs were merely maynarded when the main got mined out. No Terran in the fucking world needs more than 4 gas bases in a single game in order to beat a Zerg.
Jaedong only had a maximum of five bases throughout the entire game. He did not expand anywhere in the 5-6 o'clock positions.
A Terran is advantageous if he is running on the amount of bases the Zerg is running on.
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Terran going SK Terran is fine with just 2 geysers. Bio is insanely cheap, which is why Flash was able to go 3 starport science vessels despite constantly pumping infantry.
Look, to you Jaedong fans, I know it's hard to believe, but Jaedong isn't *so* much better than Flash that he could beat Flash on such an imbalanced map even while Flash played at his best. I think someone mentioned Flash is 4-8 in his last 12, so he hasn't exactly been cleaning house lately. My guess is he just needs some rest after being overworked. The kid's only 16 years old after all. His team's vacation time will do him some *real good*.
BTW, anyone know what Flash does about high school? Since he probably has to practice for SC all day... but aren't Koreans required to go to high school?
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On March 26 2009 02:32 latent wrote:
Terran going SK Terran is fine with just 2 geysers. Bio is insanely cheap, which is why Flash was able to go 3 starport science vessels despite constantly pumping infantry.
Look, to you Jaedong fans, I know it's hard to believe, but Jaedong isn't *so* much better than Flash that he could beat Flash on such an imbalanced map even while Flash played at his best. I think someone mentioned Flash is 4-8 in his last 12, so he hasn't exactly been cleaning house lately. My guess is he just needs some rest after being overworked. The kid's only 16 years old after all. His team's vacation time will do him some *real good*.
BTW, anyone know what Flash does about high school? Since he probably has to practice for SC all day... but aren't Koreans required to go to high school?
I believe he "attends" class, sort of like how Korean celebs his age do, but really doesn't put much effort into his studies at school. I'm pretty sure he "studies" while training. Hence, I believe he doesn't see his teachers or fellow peers at school often. But I'm pretty sure he goes to school.
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I dont get this shit about how tanks would've saved flash..
I love JD, and this was epic, but I love flash too and the reason is because of the game these two played. It was fucking epic. Any other Zerg in the world would've faltered to that IMMENSE pressure and multi tasking that Flash kept up, and seeing these two prodigies battle it out like this in a match like this was just so fucking awesome. JD was better that day at what they both excell so godly at. Multitasking.
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On March 26 2009 02:35 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2009 02:32 latent wrote:
Terran going SK Terran is fine with just 2 geysers. Bio is insanely cheap, which is why Flash was able to go 3 starport science vessels despite constantly pumping infantry.
Look, to you Jaedong fans, I know it's hard to believe, but Jaedong isn't *so* much better than Flash that he could beat Flash on such an imbalanced map even while Flash played at his best. I think someone mentioned Flash is 4-8 in his last 12, so he hasn't exactly been cleaning house lately. My guess is he just needs some rest after being overworked. The kid's only 16 years old after all. His team's vacation time will do him some *real good*.
BTW, anyone know what Flash does about high school? Since he probably has to practice for SC all day... but aren't Koreans required to go to high school? I believe he "attends" class, sort of like how Korean celebs his age do, but really doesn't put much effort into his studies at school. I'm pretty sure he "studies" while training. Hence, I believe he doesn't see his teachers or fellow peers at school often. But I'm pretty sure he goes to school.
I remember something about how he used to be a good student before SC, now his teachers give him a little bump in his grades whenever he needs it so he passes
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On March 26 2009 02:35 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2009 02:32 latent wrote:
Terran going SK Terran is fine with just 2 geysers. Bio is insanely cheap, which is why Flash was able to go 3 starport science vessels despite constantly pumping infantry.
Look, to you Jaedong fans, I know it's hard to believe, but Jaedong isn't *so* much better than Flash that he could beat Flash on such an imbalanced map even while Flash played at his best. I think someone mentioned Flash is 4-8 in his last 12, so he hasn't exactly been cleaning house lately. My guess is he just needs some rest after being overworked. The kid's only 16 years old after all. His team's vacation time will do him some *real good*.
BTW, anyone know what Flash does about high school? Since he probably has to practice for SC all day... but aren't Koreans required to go to high school? I believe he "attends" class, sort of like how Korean celebs his age do, but really doesn't put much effort into his studies at school. I'm pretty sure he "studies" while training. Hence, I believe he doesn't see his teachers or fellow peers at school often. But I'm pretty sure he goes to school.
there was something on flash and school, and like iirc he slept through them.
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probably answered already but why are they still wearing uniforms with Lecaf on them?
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Anyone know if there is an interview with the Winner/Loser of this series ? Really surprised I haven't seen this yet, as its quite common, especially on such a match.
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United States11393 Posts
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On March 26 2009 05:45 SaRangHaE wrote:
probably answered already but why are they still wearing uniforms with Lecaf on them?
Hwaseung is the company that owns Lecaf I think.
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On March 26 2009 00:32 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2009 22:03 ASAzerg wrote:On March 25 2009 13:18 koreasilver wrote:
If you can't see the difference between the two games, then you're helpless.
Flash killed Jaedong's fourth twice, and for periods of time, he was running on more bases than Jaedong. He also won many fights compared to Hwasin, who lost every single fight he engaged in. Flash noticed Jaedong's hydralisks when he was running 4 bases (4 gas) vs. Jaedong's 3 bases (3 gas). Jaedong did get his fourth back up for the third time shortly after, but Flash still had the economic advantage. He also already had a factory with a machine shop attached to it at that point. If he began producing siege tanks after seeing the hydralisks, he could have easily made Jaedong's hydralurk unit composition much less effective. Once a zerg commits to hydralurk, it is difficult to change unit composition effectively, and Flash had the resources to make a third starport for vessals while he was running on four bases; he easily had the resources required to make tanks off of two factories while also producing vessals off of two ports.
Jaedong didn't prevent Flash from taking expansions at all. It was 4 base vs 4 base for like 6 minutes, and Jaedong did not have 6-7 bases; he only got up to 5 at the end of the game. Flash only lost his expansions when the game was already lost, and why would Flash need to take more expansions when he's running on the same number of expansions as Jaedong? Flash had the advantage during the mid to early late game, but because he stubbornly stuck with SK Terran when Jaedong switched to hydralurk with plague, he started to lose most of the fights and Jaedong eventually won due to it. You're seriously stupid for thinking Flash didn't need to expand when he was about to run out of mineral. To produce a big enough army to even just repel Jaedong's, Flash constantly needs 3-4 bases. Flash need to gain 2-3 more epansions during the hydra-lurk late game because his main and natural were about to get mined out. Did you see how he had to distant mine at the end? Jaedong prevented him from taking more expansions hence he was unable to produce enough troops and lost the game. And Jaedong did have more than 5 bases. Remember also that Flash was late to take down Jaedong 's expansion at 8 o'clock-ish. At the time, Jaedong already had hatcheries throughout most of the map. Flash, on the other hand, was stuck on his main, natural, and the expansion that he eventually take from Jaedong. Flash was able to win the early battles because Jaedong was busy expanding to gain more economic advantage. Just because Flash won the battles doesn't mean he had the overall advantage. Did you even watch the right game? Flash's third and fourth still had healthy mineral patches, and he never distant mined; the scvs were merely maynarded when the main got mined out. No Terran in the fucking world needs more than 4 gas bases in a single game in order to beat a Zerg. Jaedong only had a maximum of five bases throughout the entire game. He did not expand anywhere in the 5-6 o'clock positions. A Terran is advantageous if he is running on the amount of bases the Zerg is running on.
That's a weird term that you're using. Not that it matters. Flash bases were nearly mined out and he had to pull SCVs to mine from the 8 o'clock ish mineral patches. Jaedong did not let him to mine tho' cause his hydras took the SCVs out. He needed to get 2 more expansions if he was to keep pumping troops that could hold Jaedong's massive army.
And Flash had 4 gas bases? Wow, kid, just wow. The 9 o'clock expansion main doesn't even have gas. The natural from that expansion had gas but that only amount to 3 gas bases for Flash. At least learn the map kid.
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Ah yes, the English commentaries. The very thing I mentioned much earlier in this thread, got into an argument over, and was (fairly I'll admit) banned for flaming over, turns out to be exactly what the commentators felt was the biggest problem: Jaedong's expansion at 11 o'clock. Instead of attacking 11, Flash kept on going for Jaedong's 12 o'clock expansion and losing tons of units in the process. Yes 11 had the nydus canal, but it's not the same as having *all your hatcheries and units* right there as at Jaedong's 12.
The commentators also were very disappointed by how Flash failed to make any tanks, and were just shocked at how many science vessels Flash lost. Probably the most telling quotes:
"He's so good, he's so smart, but he's so crazy at the same time. He just needs some mental help."
and...
"Flash just getting demolished, at the very end, by himself, I gotta say. He lost that game. Jaedong didn't beat him, so much as he just lost the game."
***End Transmission***
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The same commentators that said Flash recently had trouble with Jaedong, the same flash who all killed Oz and beat Jaedong brutally in the MSL. He was 2-0 against jaedong within 4 weeks.
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On March 26 2009 05:45 SaRangHaE wrote:
probably answered already but why are they still wearing uniforms with Lecaf on them?
Hwaseung is the mother company, and Lecaf is one of its divisions, that specializes in clothing production. So their outfits are still made by Lecaf, it's just that the bosses of Hwaseung decided to advertize the whole company instead of just one division.
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On March 26 2009 07:25 ASAzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2009 00:32 koreasilver wrote:On March 25 2009 22:03 ASAzerg wrote:On March 25 2009 13:18 koreasilver wrote:
If you can't see the difference between the two games, then you're helpless.
Flash killed Jaedong's fourth twice, and for periods of time, he was running on more bases than Jaedong. He also won many fights compared to Hwasin, who lost every single fight he engaged in. Flash noticed Jaedong's hydralisks when he was running 4 bases (4 gas) vs. Jaedong's 3 bases (3 gas). Jaedong did get his fourth back up for the third time shortly after, but Flash still had the economic advantage. He also already had a factory with a machine shop attached to it at that point. If he began producing siege tanks after seeing the hydralisks, he could have easily made Jaedong's hydralurk unit composition much less effective. Once a zerg commits to hydralurk, it is difficult to change unit composition effectively, and Flash had the resources to make a third starport for vessals while he was running on four bases; he easily had the resources required to make tanks off of two factories while also producing vessals off of two ports.
Jaedong didn't prevent Flash from taking expansions at all. It was 4 base vs 4 base for like 6 minutes, and Jaedong did not have 6-7 bases; he only got up to 5 at the end of the game. Flash only lost his expansions when the game was already lost, and why would Flash need to take more expansions when he's running on the same number of expansions as Jaedong? Flash had the advantage during the mid to early late game, but because he stubbornly stuck with SK Terran when Jaedong switched to hydralurk with plague, he started to lose most of the fights and Jaedong eventually won due to it. You're seriously stupid for thinking Flash didn't need to expand when he was about to run out of mineral. To produce a big enough army to even just repel Jaedong's, Flash constantly needs 3-4 bases. Flash need to gain 2-3 more epansions during the hydra-lurk late game because his main and natural were about to get mined out. Did you see how he had to distant mine at the end? Jaedong prevented him from taking more expansions hence he was unable to produce enough troops and lost the game. And Jaedong did have more than 5 bases. Remember also that Flash was late to take down Jaedong 's expansion at 8 o'clock-ish. At the time, Jaedong already had hatcheries throughout most of the map. Flash, on the other hand, was stuck on his main, natural, and the expansion that he eventually take from Jaedong. Flash was able to win the early battles because Jaedong was busy expanding to gain more economic advantage. Just because Flash won the battles doesn't mean he had the overall advantage. Did you even watch the right game? Flash's third and fourth still had healthy mineral patches, and he never distant mined; the scvs were merely maynarded when the main got mined out. No Terran in the fucking world needs more than 4 gas bases in a single game in order to beat a Zerg. Jaedong only had a maximum of five bases throughout the entire game. He did not expand anywhere in the 5-6 o'clock positions. A Terran is advantageous if he is running on the amount of bases the Zerg is running on. That's a weird term that you're using. Not that it matters. Flash bases were nearly mined out and he had to pull SCVs to mine from the 8 o'clock ish mineral patches. Jaedong did not let him to mine tho' cause his hydras took the SCVs out. He needed to get 2 more expansions if he was to keep pumping troops that could hold Jaedong's massive army. And Flash had 4 gas bases? Wow, kid, just wow. The 9 o'clock expansion main doesn't even have gas. The natural from that expansion had gas but that only amount to 3 gas bases for Flash. At least learn the map kid.
Watch the game again. All four of Flash's bases had gas.
Of course a Terran will maynard scvs mining from his main and nat as the game progresses. That's normal.
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On March 26 2009 08:43 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2009 07:25 ASAzerg wrote:On March 26 2009 00:32 koreasilver wrote:On March 25 2009 22:03 ASAzerg wrote:On March 25 2009 13:18 koreasilver wrote:
If you can't see the difference between the two games, then you're helpless.
Flash killed Jaedong's fourth twice, and for periods of time, he was running on more bases than Jaedong. He also won many fights compared to Hwasin, who lost every single fight he engaged in. Flash noticed Jaedong's hydralisks when he was running 4 bases (4 gas) vs. Jaedong's 3 bases (3 gas). Jaedong did get his fourth back up for the third time shortly after, but Flash still had the economic advantage. He also already had a factory with a machine shop attached to it at that point. If he began producing siege tanks after seeing the hydralisks, he could have easily made Jaedong's hydralurk unit composition much less effective. Once a zerg commits to hydralurk, it is difficult to change unit composition effectively, and Flash had the resources to make a third starport for vessals while he was running on four bases; he easily had the resources required to make tanks off of two factories while also producing vessals off of two ports.
Jaedong didn't prevent Flash from taking expansions at all. It was 4 base vs 4 base for like 6 minutes, and Jaedong did not have 6-7 bases; he only got up to 5 at the end of the game. Flash only lost his expansions when the game was already lost, and why would Flash need to take more expansions when he's running on the same number of expansions as Jaedong? Flash had the advantage during the mid to early late game, but because he stubbornly stuck with SK Terran when Jaedong switched to hydralurk with plague, he started to lose most of the fights and Jaedong eventually won due to it. You're seriously stupid for thinking Flash didn't need to expand when he was about to run out of mineral. To produce a big enough army to even just repel Jaedong's, Flash constantly needs 3-4 bases. Flash need to gain 2-3 more epansions during the hydra-lurk late game because his main and natural were about to get mined out. Did you see how he had to distant mine at the end? Jaedong prevented him from taking more expansions hence he was unable to produce enough troops and lost the game. And Jaedong did have more than 5 bases. Remember also that Flash was late to take down Jaedong 's expansion at 8 o'clock-ish. At the time, Jaedong already had hatcheries throughout most of the map. Flash, on the other hand, was stuck on his main, natural, and the expansion that he eventually take from Jaedong. Flash was able to win the early battles because Jaedong was busy expanding to gain more economic advantage. Just because Flash won the battles doesn't mean he had the overall advantage. Did you even watch the right game? Flash's third and fourth still had healthy mineral patches, and he never distant mined; the scvs were merely maynarded when the main got mined out. No Terran in the fucking world needs more than 4 gas bases in a single game in order to beat a Zerg. Jaedong only had a maximum of five bases throughout the entire game. He did not expand anywhere in the 5-6 o'clock positions. A Terran is advantageous if he is running on the amount of bases the Zerg is running on. That's a weird term that you're using. Not that it matters. Flash bases were nearly mined out and he had to pull SCVs to mine from the 8 o'clock ish mineral patches. Jaedong did not let him to mine tho' cause his hydras took the SCVs out. He needed to get 2 more expansions if he was to keep pumping troops that could hold Jaedong's massive army. And Flash had 4 gas bases? Wow, kid, just wow. The 9 o'clock expansion main doesn't even have gas. The natural from that expansion had gas but that only amount to 3 gas bases for Flash. At least learn the map kid. Watch the game again. All four of Flash's bases had gas. Of course a Terran will maynard scvs mining from his main and nat as the game progresses. That's normal.
Actually, the expos on top of the ramps at 9, 1 and 5 have no gas.
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EPT
