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[WL] Playoffs: KTF vs OZ - Page 89

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ASAzerg
Profile Joined November 2008
Canada33 Posts
March 24 2009 20:30 GMT
#1761
So it seems that some random guys think they have better decision-making than Flash who's not just extremely talented in Starcraft, but practices around 12 hours a day with other pros. Bravo! Perfect logic.
EternaLEnVy
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada513 Posts
March 24 2009 20:43 GMT
#1762
On March 25 2009 05:30 ASAzerg wrote:
So it seems that some random guys think they have better decision-making than Flash who's not just extremely talented in Starcraft, but practices around 12 hours a day with other pros. Bravo! Perfect logic.


Although what u say may sound right, I don't think thats always true. Sure pros do all that stuff but remember durnig a game they may be nervous and they have to do so many things while making those decisions. We have time to analysis whats gonig on and what Flash did wrong. Although i completely do not agree with what he said, I think its arrogant to beleive that w/e decisions pros make will be better than ours during their games. ofc their analysis after the game of what they did wrong should be better than ours.
Hell in my head
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-24 20:57:29
March 24 2009 20:55 GMT
#1763
On March 25 2009 05:30 ASAzerg wrote:
So it seems that some random guys think they have better decision-making than Flash who's not just extremely talented in Starcraft, but practices around 12 hours a day with other pros. Bravo! Perfect logic.

Of course Flash is better than anyone on this forum, he's open to errors. Just because someone is better than us doesn't mean that we cannot criticize his mistakes. You're the one that has presented a fallacious argument.
latent
Profile Joined March 2009
United States428 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-24 21:11:29
March 24 2009 21:10 GMT
#1764
On March 25 2009 01:31 koreasilver wrote:
Hwasin has shown a bunch of games where he will fly around the map with his bionic forces while building up a tank force at his nat.

Regardless, Flash's triple starport was overkill, and two starports are more than enough to produce enough vessals. Not producing tanks against hydralurk is just stupid, it's like deliberately making a game harder for yourself. Flash was producing more than enough vessals to irradiate defilers, and if he made tanks the hydras would not have been able to shoot down vessals as easily. He already had enough barracks, and he already had a factory with a machine shop attached to it that he used to produce vultures for mines. Constant tank production from just one factory would have been enough to make Jaedong's hydralurk unit composition much less effective.


Totally agree. I was surprised when I saw the vultures + mines but no tanks. Generally tanks' splash damage is extremely important late game to deal with dark swarm. Tanks are devastating against hydralisks, even when they're under dark swarm, especially when they're on the high ground. Flash started running his firebats straight into hydralisks because his marines were totally ineffective with dark swarm everywhere, but of course the bats were completely pwned. And if you remember part of the reason Flash couldn't attack the base at 11 were the lurkers. He actually had his army right at the entrance of the base, but had to pull out. An SK terran needs a ton of units to take on multiple lurkers (unless you're Boxer and have immortal marines heh), and Flash needed his army to safely establish an expansion at 9 (and later the min + gas expansion right next to 9). With just a couple of tanks and a small group of MnM to protect them, he could have safely sieged the expansion to death.

But...we all know how stubborn Flash can be. But he's only 16 (!!!), and he has a lot of time to grow, which is quite scary to think about.
Moo
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
March 24 2009 21:11 GMT
#1765
On March 25 2009 05:43 EternaLEnVy wrote:
ofc their analysis after the game of what they did wrong should be better than ours.

waaaaaaaay better, but yeah, I agree with anything you said, 2bad we don't have an after-match interview with Flash himself
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
March 24 2009 21:13 GMT
#1766
On March 25 2009 06:10 latent wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2009 01:31 koreasilver wrote:
Hwasin has shown a bunch of games where he will fly around the map with his bionic forces while building up a tank force at his nat.

Regardless, Flash's triple starport was overkill, and two starports are more than enough to produce enough vessals. Not producing tanks against hydralurk is just stupid, it's like deliberately making a game harder for yourself. Flash was producing more than enough vessals to irradiate defilers, and if he made tanks the hydras would not have been able to shoot down vessals as easily. He already had enough barracks, and he already had a factory with a machine shop attached to it that he used to produce vultures for mines. Constant tank production from just one factory would have been enough to make Jaedong's hydralurk unit composition much less effective.


Totally agree. I was surprised when I saw the vultures + mines but no tanks. Generally tanks' splash damage is extremely important late game to deal with dark swarm. Tanks are devastating against hydralisks, even when they're under dark swarm, especially when they're on the high ground. Flash started running his firebats straight into hydralisks because his marines were totally ineffective with dark swarm everywhere, but of course the bats were completely pwned. And if you remember part of the reason Flash couldn't attack the base at 11 were the lurkers. He actually had his army right at the entrance of the base, but had to pull out. An SK terran needs a ton of units to take on multiple lurkers (unless you're Boxer and have immortal marines heh), and Flash needed his army to safely establish an expansion at 9 (and later the min + gas expansion right next to 9). With just a couple of tanks and a small group of MnM to protect them, he could have safely sieged the expansion to death.

But...we all know how stubborn Flash can be. But he's only 16 (!!!), and he has a lot of time to grow, which is quite scary to think about.

yeah but I still believe that JD would've also changed his army composition if flash had tanks, so uhm no...I don`t think tanks would've saved him.
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
March 24 2009 21:50 GMT
#1767
Jaedong already invested heavily into his hydralurk composition by upgrading hydra speed, hydra range, and missile attack. It's rather hard to change your unit composition into something else if you've committed that heavily into hydralurk.
r1fl3m4n
Profile Joined March 2009
United States28 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-24 21:59:34
March 24 2009 21:59 GMT
#1768
What's the counter to hydra/lurk?

Tanks? Even more mines?
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-24 22:04:56
March 24 2009 22:03 GMT
#1769
Tanks are the counter to hydralurk. Hydralurk works well against SK Terran due to the absence of tanks.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
March 24 2009 22:08 GMT
#1770
Zergs have the benefit of being able to change techs very rapidly. He transitioned to hydralurk from lurkerling, I doubt it would take too much to transition back into it.
Jaedong
latent
Profile Joined March 2009
United States428 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-24 22:11:37
March 24 2009 22:09 GMT
#1771
Even if JD changed unit composition tanks are still effective and necessary against dark swarm. Heck most of JD's attacks on the expo at 10 didn't even use dark swarm. Imagine how much damage a couple tanks situated at the high-ground expo at 9 would do. Just surround them with lots of infantry units for protection. I don't know any zerg units other than guardians that are really effective against MnM + tanks. Oh wait...QUEENS!
Moo
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-24 22:14:40
March 24 2009 22:10 GMT
#1772
Did Jaedong upgrade melee attack during the game? I'm not really sure if he was. The problem about hydralurk is that it requires a great investment of resources and it usually causes the zerg to forgo ultralisk tech. A lot of the time lurkers are unable to land a killing blow to a terran, and sometimes ultralisks are required to do this.
ASAzerg
Profile Joined November 2008
Canada33 Posts
March 24 2009 22:17 GMT
#1773
On March 25 2009 05:55 koreasilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2009 05:30 ASAzerg wrote:
So it seems that some random guys think they have better decision-making than Flash who's not just extremely talented in Starcraft, but practices around 12 hours a day with other pros. Bravo! Perfect logic.

Of course Flash is better than anyone on this forum, he's open to errors. Just because someone is better than us doesn't mean that we cannot criticize his mistakes. You're the one that has presented a fallacious argument.


We can criticize their errors when they lack scouting or information and get caught off guard. Flash clearly saw that Jaedong had switched tech to hydra-lurk and chose not to build tank. It could be that it'll be harder to micro such a slow moving unit in a huge map, and many other reasons. Let me remind you that we're just watching through the eyes of the observer who could not even keep up with all the actions. So, no, your argument is stupid.

Oh and you think you're so smart? Hwasin did tanks with bio build as you said and by.Hero completely trounced him with hydra-lurk push late game that seemed very similar to Jaedong. Try watch more games, kid.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-24 22:51:52
March 24 2009 22:36 GMT
#1774
On March 25 2009 07:17 ASAzerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2009 05:55 koreasilver wrote:
On March 25 2009 05:30 ASAzerg wrote:
So it seems that some random guys think they have better decision-making than Flash who's not just extremely talented in Starcraft, but practices around 12 hours a day with other pros. Bravo! Perfect logic.

Of course Flash is better than anyone on this forum, he's open to errors. Just because someone is better than us doesn't mean that we cannot criticize his mistakes. You're the one that has presented a fallacious argument.


We can criticize their errors when they lack scouting or information and get caught off guard. Flash clearly saw that Jaedong had switched tech to hydra-lurk and chose not to build tank. It could be that it'll be harder to micro such a slow moving unit in a huge map, and many other reasons. Let me remind you that we're just watching through the eyes of the observer who could not even keep up with all the actions. So, no, your argument is stupid.

Oh and you think you're so smart? Hwasin did tanks with bio build as you said and by.Hero completely trounced him with hydra-lurk push late game that seemed very similar to Jaedong. Try watch more games, kid.

That game on RotK was terrible. The two games aren't even comparable; Flash halted Jaedong's muta harassment very quickly while by.Hero was able to inflict a lot of damage to Hwasin, and he saw Hwasin lift his factory, which is a rather tell-tale sign that Hwasin was planning on going SK Terran. Flash managed to inflict a lot of economic damage while Hwasin wasn't able to do dick all with his forces, and he was stuck in his little area while by.Hero was able to macro up with absolutely no damage done to him. by.Hero could have done whatever the fuck he wanted to do and win when he ran over Hwasin's natural. Hwasin did start to make tanks when he saw that by.Hero was going hydralurk but at that point it was meaningless because by.Hero was eating more than twice the amount of resources that Hwasin was eating and he was winning every single fight.

The two games weren't similar at all.
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States8196 Posts
March 24 2009 22:39 GMT
#1775
On March 25 2009 07:17 ASAzerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2009 05:55 koreasilver wrote:
On March 25 2009 05:30 ASAzerg wrote:
So it seems that some random guys think they have better decision-making than Flash who's not just extremely talented in Starcraft, but practices around 12 hours a day with other pros. Bravo! Perfect logic.

Of course Flash is better than anyone on this forum, he's open to errors. Just because someone is better than us doesn't mean that we cannot criticize his mistakes. You're the one that has presented a fallacious argument.

Oh and you think you're so smart? Hwasin did tanks with bio build as you said and by.Hero completely trounced him with hydra-lurk push late game that seemed very similar to Jaedong. Try watch more games, kid.


lol I think someone needs to take a chill pill. Not everyone is going to agree with your opinion, no need to talk down to people.
ASAzerg
Profile Joined November 2008
Canada33 Posts
March 25 2009 02:55 GMT
#1776
On March 25 2009 07:36 koreasilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2009 07:17 ASAzerg wrote:
On March 25 2009 05:55 koreasilver wrote:
On March 25 2009 05:30 ASAzerg wrote:
So it seems that some random guys think they have better decision-making than Flash who's not just extremely talented in Starcraft, but practices around 12 hours a day with other pros. Bravo! Perfect logic.

Of course Flash is better than anyone on this forum, he's open to errors. Just because someone is better than us doesn't mean that we cannot criticize his mistakes. You're the one that has presented a fallacious argument.


We can criticize their errors when they lack scouting or information and get caught off guard. Flash clearly saw that Jaedong had switched tech to hydra-lurk and chose not to build tank. It could be that it'll be harder to micro such a slow moving unit in a huge map, and many other reasons. Let me remind you that we're just watching through the eyes of the observer who could not even keep up with all the actions. So, no, your argument is stupid.

Oh and you think you're so smart? Hwasin did tanks with bio build as you said and by.Hero completely trounced him with hydra-lurk push late game that seemed very similar to Jaedong. Try watch more games, kid.

That game on RotK was terrible. The two games aren't even comparable; Flash halted Jaedong's muta harassment very quickly while by.Hero was able to inflict a lot of damage to Hwasin, and he saw Hwasin lift his factory, which is a rather tell-tale sign that Hwasin was planning on going SK Terran. Flash managed to inflict a lot of economic damage while Hwasin wasn't able to do dick all with his forces, and he was stuck in his little area while by.Hero was able to macro up with absolutely no damage done to him. by.Hero could have done whatever the fuck he wanted to do and win when he ran over Hwasin's natural. Hwasin did start to make tanks when he saw that by.Hero was going hydralurk but at that point it was meaningless because by.Hero was eating more than twice the amount of resources that Hwasin was eating and he was winning every single fight.

The two games weren't similar at all.


??? I don't see much difference cause at the end of the game when Jaedong went hydra-lurk, Flash still could not prevent Jaedong running strong out of 6-7 bases (could be more). He took 1-2 hatcheries but Jaedong still had several others constantly running. In fact, Flash was about to run out of resources because Jaedong constantly prevented him from taking more expansion. Based on your argument, it's already too late for Flash to make tanks, too.
Pufftrees
Profile Joined March 2009
2449 Posts
March 25 2009 04:16 GMT
#1777
That final game was incredible, I wish I didn't spoil it before watching.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
March 25 2009 04:18 GMT
#1778
If you can't see the difference between the two games, then you're helpless.

Flash killed Jaedong's fourth twice, and for periods of time, he was running on more bases than Jaedong. He also won many fights compared to Hwasin, who lost every single fight he engaged in. Flash noticed Jaedong's hydralisks when he was running 4 bases (4 gas) vs. Jaedong's 3 bases (3 gas). Jaedong did get his fourth back up for the third time shortly after, but Flash still had the economic advantage. He also already had a factory with a machine shop attached to it at that point. If he began producing siege tanks after seeing the hydralisks, he could have easily made Jaedong's hydralurk unit composition much less effective. Once a zerg commits to hydralurk, it is difficult to change unit composition effectively, and Flash had the resources to make a third starport for vessals while he was running on four bases; he easily had the resources required to make tanks off of two factories while also producing vessals off of two ports.

Jaedong didn't prevent Flash from taking expansions at all. It was 4 base vs 4 base for like 6 minutes, and Jaedong did not have 6-7 bases; he only got up to 5 at the end of the game. Flash only lost his expansions when the game was already lost, and why would Flash need to take more expansions when he's running on the same number of expansions as Jaedong? Flash had the advantage during the mid to early late game, but because he stubbornly stuck with SK Terran when Jaedong switched to hydralurk with plague, he started to lose most of the fights and Jaedong eventually won due to it.
Person514cs
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
1004 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-25 04:35:28
March 25 2009 04:30 GMT
#1779
On March 24 2009 11:27 EternaLEnVy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2009 09:42 SimonB wrote:
On March 24 2009 08:55 EternaLEnVy wrote:
I think the devastation in Flash's face alone tells u that, Flash thought he played well too but was shocked from how good Jaedong is

On the contrary, he generally does that when he should've won, but fucked up royally.

I can think of three other games where he had similar looks of shock.

Game 3 versus GGPlay on Plasma when he had a huge lead, and then got so overconfident that he didn't build any defenses except spider mines and so GGPlay just sent in a few groups of zerglings through.

Soon after that, there was a game versus Jaedong where he 14cc and lost to a zergling rush.

And just recently against Fantasy when he again lost after 14ccing.

I think everybody who is saying Flash played well needs to watch the second half of that game again. That was not just below average play for Flash's standards. It's below average play for progamer standards.

Counting only in a span of 10 minutes, I saw 20 vessels get sniped. I'm not exaggerating; I'm not rounding up. 20 vessels killed mostly by hydras because he was too late to move them. I saw pitiful groups of marines (without adequate medics, sometimes no medics) getting picked off doing hardly any damage. I saw them walking into lurkers. I saw groups of pure firebats going against groups of pure hydras (wtf?). I saw not a single tank. I saw a command center get sniped when he carelessly let it float within hydra range.

Where were his units? He was on 4 base! You macro up huge armies of M&M on 4 base, not to mention a lot of tanks. I'll bet you he had an obscene amount of minerals left when he GGed.


No man this one was different, u need to look at this again. The other ones u know that he was juz pissed off about himself. But this one showed signs of doubt, heavy doubt. He did it multiple times like 3 times. And looked confused, not just angry at himself.


He played worst then normal because Jaedong was out multitasking him. He had too much faith in his pure sk army. Should of marines drop + tanks. He was just stubborn didn't even try to change his strategy.
Peace and love, for ever.
Gumbo
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada807 Posts
March 25 2009 04:34 GMT
#1780
Right now, I think some people watched the wrong game.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
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