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On March 24 2009 09:42 SimonB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2009 08:55 EternaLEnVy wrote:
I think the devastation in Flash's face alone tells u that, Flash thought he played well too but was shocked from how good Jaedong is On the contrary, he generally does that when he should've won, but fucked up royally. I can think of three other games where he had similar looks of shock. Game 3 versus GGPlay on Plasma when he had a huge lead, and then got so overconfident that he didn't build any defenses except spider mines and so GGPlay just sent in a few groups of zerglings through. Soon after that, there was a game versus Jaedong where he 14cc and lost to a zergling rush. And just recently against Fantasy when he again lost after 14ccing. I think everybody who is saying Flash played well needs to watch the second half of that game again. That was not just below average play for Flash's standards. It's below average play for progamer standards. Counting only in a span of 10 minutes, I saw 20 vessels get sniped. I'm not exaggerating; I'm not rounding up. 20 vessels killed mostly by hydras because he was too late to move them. I saw pitiful groups of marines (without adequate medics, sometimes no medics) getting picked off doing hardly any damage. I saw them walking into lurkers. I saw groups of pure firebats going against groups of pure hydras (wtf?). I saw not a single tank. I saw a command center get sniped when he carelessly let it float within hydra range. Where were his units? He was on 4 base! You macro up huge armies of M&M on 4 base, not to mention a lot of tanks. I'll bet you he had an obscene amount of minerals left when he GGed.
No man this one was different, u need to look at this again. The other ones u know that he was juz pissed off about himself. But this one showed signs of doubt, heavy doubt. He did it multiple times like 3 times. And looked confused, not just angry at himself.
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On March 24 2009 11:27 EternaLEnVy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2009 09:42 SimonB wrote:On March 24 2009 08:55 EternaLEnVy wrote:
I think the devastation in Flash's face alone tells u that, Flash thought he played well too but was shocked from how good Jaedong is On the contrary, he generally does that when he should've won, but fucked up royally. I can think of three other games where he had similar looks of shock. Game 3 versus GGPlay on Plasma when he had a huge lead, and then got so overconfident that he didn't build any defenses except spider mines and so GGPlay just sent in a few groups of zerglings through. Soon after that, there was a game versus Jaedong where he 14cc and lost to a zergling rush. And just recently against Fantasy when he again lost after 14ccing. I think everybody who is saying Flash played well needs to watch the second half of that game again. That was not just below average play for Flash's standards. It's below average play for progamer standards. Counting only in a span of 10 minutes, I saw 20 vessels get sniped. I'm not exaggerating; I'm not rounding up. 20 vessels killed mostly by hydras because he was too late to move them. I saw pitiful groups of marines (without adequate medics, sometimes no medics) getting picked off doing hardly any damage. I saw them walking into lurkers. I saw groups of pure firebats going against groups of pure hydras (wtf?). I saw not a single tank. I saw a command center get sniped when he carelessly let it float within hydra range. Where were his units? He was on 4 base! You macro up huge armies of M&M on 4 base, not to mention a lot of tanks. I'll bet you he had an obscene amount of minerals left when he GGed. No man this one was different, u need to look at this again. The other ones u know that he was juz pissed off about himself. But this one showed signs of doubt, heavy doubt. He did it multiple times like 3 times. And looked confused, not just angry at himself. Okay man. To me he looked like he was exasperated because his TvZ, which had been the strongest of his career, looked like total shit this game.
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On March 24 2009 02:48 koreasilver wrote:
Wait, people actually look at the Power Rank as indicators of who is better?
Seriously?
Uh, well, that is one of the things it's supposed to tell you, so speculating about who should be on it is completely valid.
Yes, of course it gets fanboyish at times.
And if you notice, the argument was actually about which players should be in which order because one is better or worse, not arguing from the Power Rank itself to say who is better or worse.
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On March 24 2009 11:37 SimonB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2009 11:27 EternaLEnVy wrote:On March 24 2009 09:42 SimonB wrote:On March 24 2009 08:55 EternaLEnVy wrote:
I think the devastation in Flash's face alone tells u that, Flash thought he played well too but was shocked from how good Jaedong is On the contrary, he generally does that when he should've won, but fucked up royally. I can think of three other games where he had similar looks of shock. Game 3 versus GGPlay on Plasma when he had a huge lead, and then got so overconfident that he didn't build any defenses except spider mines and so GGPlay just sent in a few groups of zerglings through. Soon after that, there was a game versus Jaedong where he 14cc and lost to a zergling rush. And just recently against Fantasy when he again lost after 14ccing. I think everybody who is saying Flash played well needs to watch the second half of that game again. That was not just below average play for Flash's standards. It's below average play for progamer standards. Counting only in a span of 10 minutes, I saw 20 vessels get sniped. I'm not exaggerating; I'm not rounding up. 20 vessels killed mostly by hydras because he was too late to move them. I saw pitiful groups of marines (without adequate medics, sometimes no medics) getting picked off doing hardly any damage. I saw them walking into lurkers. I saw groups of pure firebats going against groups of pure hydras (wtf?). I saw not a single tank. I saw a command center get sniped when he carelessly let it float within hydra range. Where were his units? He was on 4 base! You macro up huge armies of M&M on 4 base, not to mention a lot of tanks. I'll bet you he had an obscene amount of minerals left when he GGed. No man this one was different, u need to look at this again. The other ones u know that he was juz pissed off about himself. But this one showed signs of doubt, heavy doubt. He did it multiple times like 3 times. And looked confused, not just angry at himself. Okay man. To me he looked like he was exasperated because his TvZ, which had been the strongest of his career, looked like total shit this game.
Seems that you're the only one so far (out of over 1000 posts) that says Flash play is 'total shit'. Don't you question your opinion at all?
Flash played well. Jaedong simply played better. The reason why Flash made some of those mistakes was because Jaedong did insane multitasking/micro that forced Flash to mis-micro some of his units. Remember also that tanks are not as mobile as bio units and they could get caught horribly with dark swarm. It's better to save the gas for vessels to irradiate the defilers/lurkers.
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On March 24 2009 11:37 SimonB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2009 11:27 EternaLEnVy wrote:On March 24 2009 09:42 SimonB wrote:On March 24 2009 08:55 EternaLEnVy wrote:
I think the devastation in Flash's face alone tells u that, Flash thought he played well too but was shocked from how good Jaedong is On the contrary, he generally does that when he should've won, but fucked up royally. I can think of three other games where he had similar looks of shock. Game 3 versus GGPlay on Plasma when he had a huge lead, and then got so overconfident that he didn't build any defenses except spider mines and so GGPlay just sent in a few groups of zerglings through. Soon after that, there was a game versus Jaedong where he 14cc and lost to a zergling rush. And just recently against Fantasy when he again lost after 14ccing. I think everybody who is saying Flash played well needs to watch the second half of that game again. That was not just below average play for Flash's standards. It's below average play for progamer standards. Counting only in a span of 10 minutes, I saw 20 vessels get sniped. I'm not exaggerating; I'm not rounding up. 20 vessels killed mostly by hydras because he was too late to move them. I saw pitiful groups of marines (without adequate medics, sometimes no medics) getting picked off doing hardly any damage. I saw them walking into lurkers. I saw groups of pure firebats going against groups of pure hydras (wtf?). I saw not a single tank. I saw a command center get sniped when he carelessly let it float within hydra range. Where were his units? He was on 4 base! You macro up huge armies of M&M on 4 base, not to mention a lot of tanks. I'll bet you he had an obscene amount of minerals left when he GGed. No man this one was different, u need to look at this again. The other ones u know that he was juz pissed off about himself. But this one showed signs of doubt, heavy doubt. He did it multiple times like 3 times. And looked confused, not just angry at himself. Okay man. To me he looked like he was exasperated because his TvZ, which had been the strongest of his career, looked like total shit this game.
You have some unreal expectations if you think Flash played like "total shit".
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OH MY GOD
I just came back into to town and cannot believe these results.
How does Flash give games like TvZ on Rush Hour 3 away?
I'm completely flabbergasted.
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SimonB can you teach us the way of TvZ please. I beg you.
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who ever is saying flash played like shit i think u need to re watch it again. If it was any other zerg player they wouldve loss. JD is so godly. Both players multitask like crazy even the guy controlling what u see coulndt keep up
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SimonB, if you honestly think Flash's play looked like "total shit" then you're:
a) a really annoying troll
b) completely clueless about pro Starcraft.
The unit micro wasn't as clean because the game involved immense multitasking over multiple fronts. If this was "total shit", then nearly every game any progamer has player EVER is worse than total shit. Seriously, you're either new to pro Starcraft (in which case, don't be so opinionated when you're ignorant) or just trolling us hard.
And no, tanks were not called for. You don't understand the matchup at all.
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Hey guys maybe simonb can play better than flashes shitty play let's just cheer for him on a tournament somwhere....
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On March 24 2009 18:11 FieryBalrog wrote:
SimonB, if you honestly think Flash's play looked like "total shit" then you're:
a) a really annoying troll
b) completely clueless about pro Starcraft.
c) deliberately violating the rules on LR threads
d) want a ban so badly but wants to be subtle about it.
The unit micro wasn't as clean because the game involved immense multitasking over multiple fronts. If this was "total shit", then nearly every game any progamer has player EVER is worse than total shit. Seriously, you're either new to pro Starcraft (in which case, don't be so opinionated when you're ignorant) or just trolling us hard.
And no, tanks were not called for. You don't understand the matchup at all.
fixed. ^^
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well Flash lost so many vessels for many reasons:
-so many fights around the whole map, the multitasking capability was pushed to the limit
-he was goin` for 3starports....It's simply 'OK' to lose a little more vessels because you produce a ton of vessels.
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On March 24 2009 18:11 FieryBalrog wrote:
SimonB, if you honestly think Flash's play looked like "total shit" then you're:
a) a really annoying troll
b) completely clueless about pro Starcraft.
The unit micro wasn't as clean because the game involved immense multitasking over multiple fronts. If this was "total shit", then nearly every game any progamer has player EVER is worse than total shit. Seriously, you're either new to pro Starcraft (in which case, don't be so opinionated when you're ignorant) or just trolling us hard.
And no, tanks were not called for. You don't understand the matchup at all.
Actually, I think it would have been a better decision for Flash if he put down a factory instead of a third starport. Tanks should always be produced if an opponent goes hydralurk.
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On March 25 2009 00:09 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2009 18:11 FieryBalrog wrote:
SimonB, if you honestly think Flash's play looked like "total shit" then you're:
a) a really annoying troll
b) completely clueless about pro Starcraft.
The unit micro wasn't as clean because the game involved immense multitasking over multiple fronts. If this was "total shit", then nearly every game any progamer has player EVER is worse than total shit. Seriously, you're either new to pro Starcraft (in which case, don't be so opinionated when you're ignorant) or just trolling us hard.
And no, tanks were not called for. You don't understand the matchup at all. Actually, I think it would have been a better decision for Flash if he put down a factory instead of a third starport. Tanks should always be produced if an opponent goes hydralurk.
yes, but JD has great defiler usage and I`m sure tanks wouldn`t have saved him coz there were sooo many battles everywhere. The tanks simply don't have the mobility required in that game 
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if i ws flash id use tons of vults for mobility and since jd was ground heavy get mines all over lol then focus fire on an expansion. but im sure hydra overlord will clean it up easy but it takes alota time for alota mines.
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I actually agree that Flash played kind of poorly in the 2nd half. He lost so, so many science vessels to hydras. Not to discredit Jeadong, who played better than any other zerg to ever play on this highly Terran-favored map. But when 2 S class players clash on an imbalanced map like RH3, the one with the map advantage really should win if he's playing at his normal level. One of the keys to late-game SK terran is having a ton of science vessels to irradiate everything in view. But despite having so many starports non-stop pumping science vessels, Flash never seemed to have even 10 at one time. And let's not forget how long it took Flash to find Jaedong's secret mineral-only expansion at 9, which allowed Jaedong to expand like crazy.
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On March 25 2009 00:11 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2009 00:09 koreasilver wrote:On March 24 2009 18:11 FieryBalrog wrote:
SimonB, if you honestly think Flash's play looked like "total shit" then you're:
a) a really annoying troll
b) completely clueless about pro Starcraft.
The unit micro wasn't as clean because the game involved immense multitasking over multiple fronts. If this was "total shit", then nearly every game any progamer has player EVER is worse than total shit. Seriously, you're either new to pro Starcraft (in which case, don't be so opinionated when you're ignorant) or just trolling us hard.
And no, tanks were not called for. You don't understand the matchup at all. Actually, I think it would have been a better decision for Flash if he put down a factory instead of a third starport. Tanks should always be produced if an opponent goes hydralurk. yes, but JD has great defiler usage and I`m sure tanks wouldn`t have saved him coz there were sooo many battles everywhere. The tanks simply don't have the mobility required in that game
Jaedong didn't even build defilers that much as the end of the game neared, and he just spammed hydras and lings. As Jaedong started relying less on defilers, Flash's triple starport became kinda useless, and he would have benefited more from tank production. Flash had the money to support a factory, and even just keeping tanks to defend his nat would have made it more difficult to Jaedong to just assult him head on with hydraling.
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On March 25 2009 00:51 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2009 00:11 Jaeden wrote:On March 25 2009 00:09 koreasilver wrote:On March 24 2009 18:11 FieryBalrog wrote:
SimonB, if you honestly think Flash's play looked like "total shit" then you're:
a) a really annoying troll
b) completely clueless about pro Starcraft.
The unit micro wasn't as clean because the game involved immense multitasking over multiple fronts. If this was "total shit", then nearly every game any progamer has player EVER is worse than total shit. Seriously, you're either new to pro Starcraft (in which case, don't be so opinionated when you're ignorant) or just trolling us hard.
And no, tanks were not called for. You don't understand the matchup at all. Actually, I think it would have been a better decision for Flash if he put down a factory instead of a third starport. Tanks should always be produced if an opponent goes hydralurk. yes, but JD has great defiler usage and I`m sure tanks wouldn`t have saved him coz there were sooo many battles everywhere. The tanks simply don't have the mobility required in that game Jaedong didn't even build defilers that much as the end of the game neared, and he just spammed hydras and lings. As Jaedong started relying less on defilers, Flash's triple starport became kinda useless, and he would have benefited more from tank production. Flash had the money to support a factory, and even just keeping tanks to defend his nat would have made it more difficult to Jaedong to just assult him head on with hydraling.
well, I`m sure Flash knows better than us ^^
Oh and, I think goin` tanks just for the only purpose of defending the nat is simply wrong, u can't let the other player take the whole map. And without tanks, he could build more vessels which would be more valuable ( coz JD sniped a lot of them ). Anyway I`m sure Flash would've use the tanks for more than that, but a few more units to raid on JD's expansions were more valuable it seems.
And Jd probably produced less defilers because he saw flash didn`t build any tanks. If he did, I`m sure JD would've gone with more defilers, after all, his builds changed very often and very fast just to counter the opponent's
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Hwasin has shown a bunch of games where he will fly around the map with his bionic forces while building up a tank force at his nat.
Regardless, Flash's triple starport was overkill, and two starports are more than enough to produce enough vessals. Not producing tanks against hydralurk is just stupid, it's like deliberately making a game harder for yourself. Flash was producing more than enough vessals to irradiate defilers, and if he made tanks the hydras would not have been able to shoot down vessals as easily. He already had enough barracks, and he already had a factory with a machine shop attached to it that he used to produce vultures for mines. Constant tank production from just one factory would have been enough to make Jaedong's hydralurk unit composition much less effective.
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On March 25 2009 00:21 ichimarugin680 wrote:
if i ws flash id use tons of vults for mobility and since jd was ground heavy get mines all over lol then focus fire on an expansion. but im sure hydra overlord will clean it up easy but it takes alota time for alota mines.
I know it's bad to 'self advertise' on a site but you leave me no choice:
Please read this
Thank you.
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EPT
