EPT[WL] Playoffs: KTF vs OZ - Page 87
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ichimarugin680
United States182 Posts
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ShmotZ
United States581 Posts
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
HoeJJa played decently, but couldn't finish the job. fOrGG played a terrible build. Even if he played perfectly, the build was just too easily exploited. Lux was just all-around bad, but he probably shouldn't of been there on that map in the first place. Flash played the worst I've seen him a long, long time against Zerg. He was no where near the skill level he had displayed in recent months. I honestly wonder if they were partying too much from the MSL win. Edit: I'm really shaking my head at people calling the last game "S-class" level. Jaedong played well, but Flash was just so completely sloppy and messed up. There was a brief period where it looked like his abilities were kicking in, but then he was just so disconnected all over place. He wasn't getting out that many marines considering he was on 4-base, he was so spread out with groups medics here and there with maybe only 2-3 marines accompanying them. His micro was just plain awful. He just walked in lurkers and let everybody get slaughtered. He was just a mess. That is not the TvZ of Flash we had seen the last 3 months. | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On March 24 2009 04:51 SimonB wrote: Edit: I'm really shaking my head at people calling the last game "S-class" level. I can't believe you are actually serious. This has to be a troll. | ||
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JohnBall
Brazil1272 Posts
Flash played amazingly well and was very close to winning the match on the mid game when he took down 2 of JD's expansions. For example, had he waited only a couple seconds more before attacking 9 o'clock, JD's army would have made it to the ramp and saved the expansion. Another genius thing that he did was going for vulture mines, which really slowed Jaedong's movement around the map and killed a dozen hidras. That game was amazing, they both were fighting all around the map. Very aggressive style from both of them and their multitasking was amazing. That was the TvZ of the season. | ||
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
4 base M&M should tear through hydra-lurker. It is not a strong strategy. Flash looked 50% of what he usually is. | ||
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[X]Ken_D
United States4653 Posts
On March 24 2009 06:14 SimonB wrote: The fact that he lasted as long as he did was almost completely a function of Rush Hour 3. His micro was the worst I can remember Flash ever playing. It looked like he wasn't even looking at his screen half the time. 4 base M&M should tear through hydra-lurker. It is not a strong strategy. Flash looked 50% of what he usually is. Jaedong did have a hidden expansion for a long time. Otherwise the results may be different. Flash lost to strategy, not his own mechanics. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On March 24 2009 06:14 SimonB wrote: The fact that he lasted as long as he did was almost completely a function of Rush Hour 3. His micro was the worst I can remember Flash ever playing. It looked like he wasn't even looking at his screen half the time. 4 base M&M should tear through hydra-lurker. It is not a strong strategy. Flash looked 50% of what he usually is. We weren't watching the same game apparently. M&M gets RAPED by hydra-lurker, I mean it gets so destroyed by Hydra/Lurk it's amazing. Your knowledge of anti Sk terran/M&M is a bit lacking. The only reason Hydra/Lurk isn't used more is because terrans like to go tank heavy and most zergs just don't have the defiler control necessary to conteract that. It's a really strong build. You're also fooling yourself if you think the map means anything between two S-Class players, those type of players have a real knack for completely disregarding map imbalance and winning anyway. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
If you do this strat you make +1 and 3rax with the soul purpose of beiong able to take mapcontrol in the early midgame, but he was denied that because of one early game mistake. From there he played as good as he could. I was really amazed that he was able to almost make a comeback, althought rushhour is favouring terrans i dont think any other terran would have played as good as he did from there vs jaedong. | ||
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Harem
United States11393 Posts
On March 24 2009 07:02 StylishVODs wrote: Flash actually played very well. He was at a huge disadvantage in the start. Jaedongs mutalisks/lings did way too much damage, considering flash opened +1 style 3rax and wasn't able to secure his briges until lurkers were morphed. If you do this strat you make +1 and 3rax with the soul purpose of beiong able to take mapcontrol in the early midgame, but he was denied that because of one early game mistake. From there he played as good as he could. I was really amazed that he was able to almost make a comeback, althought rushhour is favouring terrans i dont think any other terran would have played as good as he did from there vs jaedong. Flash's early +1 really stopped JD's mutas from doing even more damage. ~_~ | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On March 24 2009 06:58 Jayme wrote: We weren't watching the same game apparently. M&M gets RAPED by hydra-lurker, I mean it gets so destroyed by Hydra/Lurk it's amazing. Your knowledge of anti Sk terran/M&M is a bit lacking. The only reason Hydra/Lurk isn't used more is because terrans like to go tank heavy and most zergs just don't have the defiler control necessary to conteract that. It's a really strong build. You're also fooling yourself if you think the map means anything between two S-Class players, those type of players have a real knack for completely disregarding map imbalance and winning anyway. hydra/lurk fucking sucks against M&M if defilers aren't included. You're also fooling yourself if you think maps are irrelevant when it comes to S-Class players. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On March 24 2009 08:34 Harem wrote: Flash's early +1 really stopped JD's mutas from doing even more damage. ~_~ Yes it did. He did a good opening, but turret timing was 1 second off and his unit placement was off. This was the mistake. If he had units in natural and turrets up he would have been able to secure mapcontrol before lurkers were at his bridges. I didn't say early +1 give you disadvantage vs 3hatch mutaling. | ||
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EternaLEnVy
Canada513 Posts
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On March 24 2009 06:58 Jayme wrote: We weren't watching the same game apparently. M&M gets RAPED by hydra-lurker, I mean it gets so destroyed by Hydra/Lurk it's amazing. Your knowledge of anti Sk terran/M&M is a bit lacking. The only reason Hydra/Lurk isn't used more is because terrans like to go tank heavy and most zergs just don't have the defiler control necessary to conteract that. It's a really strong build. You're also fooling yourself if you think the map means anything between two S-Class players, those type of players have a real knack for completely disregarding map imbalance and winning anyway. Also hydra-lurker is quite costly.. people don't have the resources for it, that's why you can only see it in later stages of the game. This unit combo is the best one actually against SK. | ||
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
On March 24 2009 08:55 EternaLEnVy wrote: I think the devastation in Flash's face alone tells u that, Flash thought he played well too but was shocked from how good Jaedong is On the contrary, he generally does that when he should've won, but fucked up royally. I can think of three other games where he had similar looks of shock. Game 3 versus GGPlay on Plasma when he had a huge lead, and then got so overconfident that he didn't build any defenses except spider mines and so GGPlay just sent in a few groups of zerglings through. Soon after that, there was a game versus Jaedong where he 14cc and lost to a zergling rush. And just recently against Fantasy when he again lost after 14ccing. I think everybody who is saying Flash played well needs to watch the second half of that game again. That was not just below average play for Flash's standards. It's below average play for progamer standards. Counting only in a span of 10 minutes, I saw 20 vessels get sniped. I'm not exaggerating; I'm not rounding up. 20 vessels killed mostly by hydras because he was too late to move them. I saw pitiful groups of marines (without adequate medics, sometimes no medics) getting picked off doing hardly any damage. I saw them walking into lurkers. I saw groups of pure firebats going against groups of pure hydras (wtf?). I saw not a single tank. I saw a command center get sniped when he carelessly let it float within hydra range. Where were his units? He was on 4 base! You macro up huge armies of M&M on 4 base, not to mention a lot of tanks. I'll bet you he had an obscene amount of minerals left when he GGed. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On March 24 2009 08:41 koreasilver wrote: hydra/lurk fucking sucks against M&M if defilers aren't included. You're also fooling yourself if you think maps are irrelevant when it comes to S-Class players. Hence the whole you know, require defiler control I added in there at the end. I'm going to have to go with maps are pretty much irrelevant when it comes to S-class players, Flash likes to prove it routinely with his Katrina/Medusa records. They have the means and the skill to overcome the map disadvantages more often than not. To the guy above me... Hydra/lurk snipes vessels really well... Not only do hydras do full damage to vessels but they protect defilers really well too. Thats why Hydra/Lurk + Defiler is so amazing versus SK terran. I also very much doubt he had a couple thousand minerals in his bank when he GG'd seeing as Jaedong constantly killed M&M throughout the entire game. | ||
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BisuBoi
United States350 Posts
On March 24 2009 09:42 SimonB wrote: On the contrary, he generally does that when he should've won, but fucked up royally. I can think of three other games where he had similar looks of shock. Game 3 versus GGPlay on Plasma when he had a huge lead, and then got so overconfident that he didn't build any defenses except spider mines and so GGPlay just sent in a few groups of zerglings through. Soon after that, there was a game versus Jaedong where he 14cc and lost to a zergling rush. And just recently against Fantasy when he again lost after 14ccing. I think everybody who is saying Flash played well needs to watch the second half of that game again. That was not just below average play for Flash's standards. It's below average play for progamer standards. Counting only in a span of 10 minutes, I saw 20 vessels get sniped. I'm not exaggerating; I'm not rounding up. 20 vessels killed mostly by hydras because he was too late to move them. I saw pitiful groups of marines (without adequate medics, sometimes no medics) getting picked off doing hardly any damage. I saw them walking into lurkers. I saw groups of pure firebats going against groups of pure hydras (wtf?). I saw not a single tank. I saw a command center get sniped when he carelessly let it float within hydra range. Where were his units? He was on 4 base! You macro up huge armies of M&M on 4 base, not to mention a lot of tanks. I'll bet you he had an obscene amount of minerals left when he GGed. You fail to understand how much was going on in the game. The observer was basically random cycling through different areas of the map by the second half. There were huge fights going on EVERYWHERE. The small groups of marine/medic weren't idle. Those were split up on purpose to scout and to draw together when he saw where a big attack was coming from. His playstyle was due to the map, not to mismicro. Both players were trying to cover a LOT of territory. You're like trying to compare Flash's micro when he only has to focus on one battle on a map like Blue Storm or something compared to this huge sprawling war with tons of little battles going on everywhere. Yeah, of course Flash is gonna look sloppy when his attention is spread so thin. Hydra/lurk only sucks when the SK Terran has tank support. Flash couldn't risk tanks with how spread out the fights were and with how fast defilers were on the board. Simple as that. | ||
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
On March 24 2009 09:54 BisuBoi wrote: I am relying on the observer to some extent, but you can still observe for yourself a greater picture of Flash's just not controlling his units well. When you allow yourself to be divided and conquered so easily, it's reflection of your poor management. He never seemed to strike a good balance. He would have too many medics or he would not have enough medics. He generally seemed to have not enough units overall and his micro was just plain awful.You fail to understand how much was going on in the game. The observer was basically random cycling through different areas of the map by the second half. There were huge fights going on EVERYWHERE. The small groups of marine/medic weren't idle. Those were split up on purpose to scout and to draw together when he saw where a big attack was coming from. His playstyle was due to the map, not to mismicro. Both players were trying to cover a LOT of territory. You're like trying to compare Flash's micro when he only has to focus on one battle on a map like Blue Storm or something compared to this huge sprawling war with tons of little battles going on everywhere. Yeah, of course Flash is gonna look sloppy when his attention is spread so thin. Hydra/lurk only sucks when the SK Terran has tank support. Flash couldn't risk tanks with how spread out the fights were and with how fast defilers were on the board. Simple as that. 4-base M&M allows you to produce a hell of a lot of units and that includes tanks too. The zerg should probably be more worried about being divided and conquered than the Terran, especially on a map like this when Terran can defend a lot easier. | ||
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
I'll bet you he had an obscene amount of minerals left when he GGed. Why do I doubt that... hmmmm let me count the ways... 1.Flash is a high level player 2.He had so many units around and we see MnM constantly popping out 3.He was losing sci vessels a little carelessly therefore had to constantly replace. | ||
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BisuBoi
United States350 Posts
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