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On June 09 2008 13:56 ._. wrote:
O christ I was afraid I was gonna nitpicked for that statement.
Calling Zerg the race with the most game sense the one with the most macro difficult and unit control difficult feels like a lot of bias to me. you are being as presumptuous as my initial statements were by concurring from your own opinion and perspective from your own view.
If anything, his series vs Kal was by far the most "inspiring". Raw will and insane recovery from macroing and replacing his drones and unit count. His first game vs Bisu was incredible, as he won that game in a similar fashion. but 2nd-3rd was mostly the fault of Bisu. seriously, he made 2 citadels in one game and cluttered his buildings up together making it shit vs drops.
Zerg has superior recon in the ZvP matchup, zerg can get away with denying protoss early game scouting and its near impossible to stop a 2 hatch all-in if the zerg's got all corners covered. Protoss FE follow up of course.
If you seen his games in old replays and old vods you can clearly see his ZvP was quite weaker to his other matchups and its only been recently he's leveled his game sense in that match up.
Causation does not always mean correlation with your analogy. Jae antes up his play with his mechanics while staying true to formulaic zerg play. He indeed plays like any pro zerg and there is nothing wrong with the trends of these poor "losing" zergs as they practice hours on end for optimal builds and timing, he executes these trends well enough by his own accord to get to where he is today.
Zerg units have far less HP than Protoss units, and far less range than Terran units. They are supposed to be more numerous, though there's been very little evidence of that in recent matches. Their combat units are built from the same larvae as their workers; the trade-off between economy and army is direct and painful. That's why when Terran sacrifices worker production for more units, it's a timing push, whereas when Zerg sacrifices worker production for more units, it's an all-in. Deciding when to build drones and when to build combat units is dependent on correctly reading the flow of the game, otherwise known as game sense. Terran and Protoss macro can be standardized/mechanized because they have specialized unit production. Zerg macro can never be standardized because workers and fighters are drawn from the same limited pool of larva. Thus macro and game sense can't be detached from one another. A faulty game sense is tolerable for Protoss, a burden for Terran, and death for Zerg, since it directly affects his economy. If Zerg units are more fragile and have less range, then they need to be managed more closely. If there are more Zerg units, then they are harder to manage.
But of course this is just my bias, right?
Raw will is worthless. It has to be channeled to be effective. Jaedong didn't beat Kal by gritting his teeth or howling at the monitor.
The fact that Jaedong had to improve his ZvP matchup proves nothing, since no one was arguing that he had mastered ZvP since his first days as a progamer.
Claiming that 2hatch all-ins versus Protoss FE are invincible simply shows how little you know about both ZvP and about the term "all-in."
You don't amplify mechanics with play in Zerg. Mechanics and game sense are the same thing. There is no set formula, only feel. Jaedong wins as much as he does because he understands this and acts based on this.
btw, it looks like just because you know that long words like "concurring," "causation," and "correlation" exist doesn't mean that you can use them "correctly" or well.
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United States1866 Posts
On June 09 2008 15:31 Metallingus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2008 07:46 Wizard wrote:On June 09 2008 07:33 alffla wrote:oh yeah what the fuck 3 TvTs what is this shit no body is gonna watch this  LOL if it goes to ace match it better be something good like Jaedong vs. UpMagic Jaedong v. Goodfriend would be better, UpMagic hasn't played well in like, forever.
Lol to be more specific, he hasnt played well since he lost to Jaedong 3-0, so yeah I dont think UpMagic/Jaedong as ace would be a very hard win for LJD.
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This is a pretty good discussion, and it's a shame it's going to be buried here pretty soon. I'll just add one thing.
It should be fairly obvious that a huge part of zerg success lies in the complete mastery of the game just by examining the various zerg players that have come across in recent times. In Yellow's day, zerg didn't need to be perfect because terran was not yet perfect. Once players like NaDa and oov came around and revolutionized the way the game was played, it took a lot more than smart lurker play to win.
Savior, of course, is the perfect example of what it means to master the zerg race. Savior did not burst onto the scene like the majority of the great terran and protoss players do. That's usually not how it works with zerg. IPXZerg was around for quite some time before becoming the maestro. However, there is a point in a zerg's tenure as a great player in which if he has the ultimate game sense and knowledge of his opponents and how they play, he will become nearly invincible. Very little changed for Savior mechanics-wise when he became the amazing player he was in his prime. It was rather strange how he was able to become so damn unstoppable without doing anything 'game breaking'. Sure, his play was definitely top-notch, but it was his decision making and game sense that brought him to the ultimate level.
Jaedong has really followed a similar path, and I believe we would be talking about him in much the same manner as Savior if not for his surge coinciding with the new terran monster of recent day. Jaedong has been around, and he seemed to be a decent zerg, but not much more. Then, it seemed almost overnight, he was mercilessly tearing through player after player with the micro skills of July and the absolute game mastery of Savior, except maybe even better. There just seems to be a point when something 'clicks' for zerg players, and everything is going their way.
I guess the overall point is that game sense is a huge aspect of the game for every race, and every great starcraft player over the years has been at their best because of it. However, it just seems to make or break zerg players in a much more drastic sense than it does other races.
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Anytime was/is a strategic genius. Yeah he has solid mechanics, but his success is due to his game sense.
Jaedong's mechanics, however, have far more to do with his success. His style reminds me so much of July, except better.
I don't see how either of these makes a player boring. They both use very diverse builds, have short/long games, and can make for very exciting comebacks or defeats.
Take Savior. He style is very deliberate. He won't attack you with his zerglings if he hasn't been planning it since before the game started. If the terran has buildings exposed to muta harrass, but he already killed a few scvs, he will be content to just expand and macro. If his defilers are building, he will wait for them even if he doesn't need to. Stork also. He never harrasses. He expands and attacks only when he is comfortable. These styles to me are boring.
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On June 09 2008 07:00 freelander wrote:really sweet op! the best i've seen between among ops 
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On June 09 2008 16:42 QibingZero wrote:
Jaedong has really followed a similar path, and I believe we would be talking about him in much the same manner as Savior if not for his surge coinciding with the new terran monster of recent day. Jaedong has been around, and he seemed to be a decent zerg, but not much more. Then, it seemed almost overnight, he was mercilessly tearing through player after player with the micro skills of July and the absolute game mastery of Savior, except maybe even better. There just seems to be a point when something 'clicks' for zerg players, and everything is going their way.
Jaedong has not been "around." He is a very new progamer. And he was good almost as soon as he started. He was the prodigy of the Lecaf team.
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No thread up for the other match?
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Hungary11305 Posts
I would appreciate some live-reports, as I am currently not able to watch. Thanks guys!
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Unfortunately, Jaedong isn't playing today. It's 3 TvT matches. So we'll need more Jaedong discussion soon - to distract us from 24 hours of battlecruiser bingo.
Aesop I am happy to report.
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Why would you watch TvTs? I rather watch SKT vs ACE than a bunch of no-name terrans getting slaughtered by a bunch of up-and-coming terrans...
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Okay, fOrGG vs UpMagic. Both 5-5 last 10 vT, Kespas 22 and 17 respectively, etc.
My Daum stream is dying a lot - I don't know why, I can't read the error message - so I'm sorry if I cut out.
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Yellow 5 and blue 7 respectively for forGG and Up. Both are going FE.
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How do you all feel about the Lecaf gum policy?
Lately all the players have been chewing gum during games... I don't know if it's some sort of advertisement for some random korean gum, or maybe a show of disrespect to the other team by a display of taking it casually... Ionno how I feel about it.
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Both scout up (wrong way for both). Both making factories. forGG has a bunker outside his nat. So does UpMagic. The scouting SCVs meet, pass each other, continue to the right bases. forGG is up an SCV despite mirror build, since bunker killed Up's and not his. Starport and second fact going up for Up. Third fact? Armory and academy for forGG. Up researching cloak for wraiths.
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A wraith of Up's was turned away, being repaired now. Two cloaked wraiths take down (? DAUM!!! ugh) a dropship. Sieging up midmap. Looks like up at 5 tanks/2 wraiths to 4 tanks/4 gols for forGG, about now. Both players getting 3rd. forGG breaks Up's siege to his north rather than going to the west. Huge overmatch of forces, forGG breaks the other contain as well. Just a few tanks sieging outside Up's 3rd, this looks grim.
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Tanks stop mining at Up's 3rd. forGG setting up like 4th and 5th. A billion gols destroy the shit out of a sniping wraith. Up going for a 4th. forGG setting up a new barracks (his was killed). Make that something like six CCs up for forGG. Big battle outside Up's potential 4th (9 o'clock). Up seems to hold the passage. His tank count has improved. Lomo and someone (I know I recognized him) watching game intently. Totally cute. Oh, Up had to retreat from 4th, now setting up a new one. forGG setting up a missile turret right next to Up's 4th CC, what a dick.
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Hungary11305 Posts
forGG is so greedy
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It fits his gamestyle to a T.
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Wraiths now coming out for forGG, and Up not as far behind on tanks. Getting that 9 o'clock base back. Unit count is evening up but forGG's base advantage will kick in like nuts soon I expect. Have not thought to check upgrades; one side was at 0/0. Both sides at 0/0 I think. forGG now seriously out-wraithing Up, has a genuine control group out there harassing SCVs and tanks. Not many goliaths for Up. He builds some turrets but meh. Attempts to expand some more but the wraiths shut it down.
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EPT
