[Shinhan PL] Lecaf OZ vs eSTRO June '08

On June 09 2008 15:44 EvoChamber wrote:

Zerg units have far less HP than Protoss units, and far less range than Terran units. They are supposed to be more numerous, though there's been very little evidence of that in recent matches. Their combat units are built from the same larvae as their workers; the trade-off between economy and army is direct and painful. That's why when Terran sacrifices worker production for more units, it's a timing push, whereas when Zerg sacrifices worker production for more units, it's an all-in. Deciding when to build drones and when to build combat units is dependent on correctly reading the flow of the game, otherwise known as game sense. Terran and Protoss macro can be standardized/mechanized because they have specialized unit production. Zerg macro can never be standardized because workers and fighters are drawn from the same limited pool of larva. Thus macro and game sense can't be detached from one another. A faulty game sense is tolerable for Protoss, a burden for Terran, and death for Zerg, since it directly affects his economy. If Zerg units are more fragile and have less range, then they need to be managed more closely. If there are more Zerg units, then they are harder to manage.

But of course this is just my bias, right?

Raw will is worthless. It has to be channeled to be effective. Jaedong didn't beat Kal by gritting his teeth or howling at the monitor.

The fact that Jaedong had to improve his ZvP matchup proves nothing, since no one was arguing that he had mastered ZvP since his first days as a progamer.

Claiming that 2hatch all-ins versus Protoss FE are invincible simply shows how little you know about both ZvP and about the term "all-in."

You don't amplify mechanics with play in Zerg. Mechanics and game sense are the same thing. There is no set formula, only feel. Jaedong wins as much as he does because he understands this and acts based on this.

btw, it looks like just because you know that long words like "concurring," "causation," and "correlation" exist doesn't mean that you can use them "correctly" or well.

You talk like you know the game in and out on a pro-gaming level and this is coming out from your own level of analysis. One can argue terran is the hardest race because of the difficulty multitasking the difficult nature of TvZ in late game against hive tech units and fragility of their abiltiy early game. But of course they're ranged and have units that shoot half way across the map and they have more hp and we all know that zerglings are so much harder to clump and micro efficiently. Thats pretty damn arrogant statement to make, going as far as telling me how the game balance is. If you were a pro-gamer and you told me this, I would be more convinced, but your own personal reference is not enough.
Wasn't there an old thread about what race you think was hardest and Terran got the most votes by tl.netters?

Raw will is worthless? Qualities of intuition and logic go under the same intelligence?
I read up some psychological pieces on my free time:
http://artificial-intuition.com/intuition.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_(knowledge)

Read through it all. Think of the logical puzzles found in a typical game of BW and how he plays through the game. I personally interpret Jaedong's play as something highly logical and the mistakes he make does not always show adaptive play. When he's getting pounded in ZvT, he makes all the practical decision making and choices involved with practice, such as that loss vs Inter.Mind on Blue Storm. He attacked without using his defliers when he had them out and he relied on his own estimated timing that it was an open door for a flanking to further escalate his effectiveness with his deflier on a more offensive ground for later. Bad move, cost him the game. Did he get too cocky? overly confident? Had a clear feel of that game? A man can judge art by his own accord, interpret movie endings by his own way as he pleases, and your telling me that basis is wrong as hell.
Make only four sunkens on a map with close positions with the terran and without even scouting him, get raped by a sunken break. Brilliant and intuitive, but my guess is he probably had so much confidence in his opening through practice he made the choice to do something like that. That was a practical decision, and so far off from this intuitive, sixth sense player. The games he wins are the ones where he simply makes practical decisions based on advantages, or in defensive positions. No mind-blowing wtf moments based on decisions, he is to me, a very practical player, not like Gorush/Savior. You can argue that recent game with him vs Lucifer was mind blowing and "Wtf", but he won that game with concise micro and building placement. Especially when he entangled the first zealots between his well placed creep/hach gap.

Now lets look at the skills for ZvP. I find it similar in aspect to the qualities a good PvT'er has. Focus on lower tier units, macro well, and have strong variability with introductory build orders..-->Dt drop/reaver vs 3 hatch muta/hydra break. Fast lings-->Zeal harass. And in many cases, they are the aggressors, dictators of the early-midgame because of their formula based on more cost effective early units and their ability to mass intensely more than the opposing race, as well as having the ability to contain their opponent early on. However a big difference is that the Zerg knows exactly what the intro build for the protoss is. This is unique in the for interracial matchups, as zerg is not allowed it in ZvT due to marines and in other mu's its about smelling/guessing from what you see. Of course, the good ol' proxy will catch you off guard, but for most games, this is the factor.

When you see whats coming at you, its a problem-solution basis. A test question you can read right on the paper, not like some abstract art you try to interpret as a logical message.

(significantly higher more gateways in PvT as supposed to the Terran in TvP, significantly faster unit production in ZvP as supposed to the Protoss)

Are you telling me that Jaedong was godly in ZvP since his early days? Are you kidding me? He lost to Nal_rock 1-3, got raped left and right by 3rd rate protoss, an ex by name the of Tester[gm]. His ZvP was suspect back then and he held a substantial mediocre 50% win rate. When Finals came around for him vs Stork, he transformed himself, and then he became the Jaedong he knew now. That stress and will to win, is useless? It is admirable to see, and it is an important psychological aspect of competition, as you can see from the pitiful weak-minded Stork.

I'm sorry I should have reiterated my statements more clearly because you are being condescending and nitpicking my statements without seeing it more depth. When a protoss goes FE he takes a risk with various predicaments. If zerg fast pools with speed he can deny probe scouting, forcing the p into a harrowing guessing game. Despite best efforts,he clearly does not know the whole plan of what is coming. He go for sair tech asap but that window of opportunity is still there. He can cannon up and risk zerg going for more expansions, cannon up front and end up getting muta'd, or have lings run by in Mondragon'esque style. This disadvantage has been shown in game 4 of Kal vs Jaedong, Daezang vs Luxury on blue storm, and it was the basis for many people whinning about pvz imbalance.

Correlation does not mean causation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Not some "fancy" long word I use to mask my horrible horrible English skills.

Please, let's talk this over PM. I'll gladly talk it over with you, I hate cluttering up topics with discussion like these.

Annnd I'm late for school, damn sc -_-

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