|
United States1865 Posts
Detailed Predictions:
+ Show Spoiler +Lecaf is looking scarily strong lately, with 3/8 slots in the MSL, a good portion in the GSL, and a contender in the OSL (not to mention the leader in proleague). Its a testament to this that they can NOT send out Jaedong or Anytime (easily their strongest players last season) and still have a godlike lineup. Strong B/A-class terrans seem to show up in Lecaf every other day, and all three of them are out today, and from the looks of it, all three will win.
The 2v2 team for eStro has a solid record this season and should have an above 50% chance of taking down BackHo (unlike any fan-favorite in an individual league, apparantly).
Results:
+ Show Spoiler +FORGG > UpMagiC (The "creative terran" is now just creativly bad)
Lomo < REALLY (Lomester obviously forgot his bubblegum, tried an all-in rush so he could go get some more ASAP)
LECAF > eSTRO (MAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELSTROMM)
HIYA > Suny (There is simply nothing interesting to say about this game)
GG Lecaf Wins 3:1
|
United States1865 Posts
Put the thread up in the afternoon since I will be going to sleep early so I can wake up for the games.
Lecaf Hype:
+ Show Spoiler +
|
I predict 3-0 for lecaf. Really sad to predict this 
|
really sweet op! the best i've seen between among ops 
|
Get ready guys, it's LOMO!!!!
|
Hungary11297 Posts
What a cool thread for three TvTs. Props to you.
|
Hong Kong20321 Posts
oh yeah what the fuck 3 TvTs what is this shit no body is gonna watch this  LOL
|
On June 09 2008 07:00 freelander wrote:really sweet op! the best i've seen between among ops
Totally agree =)
The Lecaf terrans really do look strong. I'm glad they dont send JD out, and actually let him practice for once. I think he needs it.
Anyway, if Anytime can wake up from his slumber, I think no one will be able to stop Lecaf from winning this years Proleague with that many Really Strong players.
|
On June 09 2008 07:33 alffla wrote:oh yeah what the fuck 3 TvTs what is this shit no body is gonna watch this LOL
if it goes to ace match it better be something good like Jaedong vs. UpMagic
|
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
I've been wondering for well over a year now when the lecaf T"s would really step it up.
Looks like they're really starting to turn the corner, for the last 3 months or so.
|
Wow 3tvts. Lecaf t's are looking strong though.
|
I fucking hate lecaf.
They are all bland, mechanical perfectionists with no glaring charisma and continuously level my favorite players, especially one by the name of Boxer. Oh and Backho too, guy needs to get raped out.
Denied the golden mouse, denied a perfect TvZ record, and getting hatchery'd on Katrina.
Fuck them, I hope they all get raped by Flash.
I want estro to win, surprise everyone, go 3-0 and let upmagic out of his sad little slump.
|
this is going to be painful... (for estro)
|
four mirror matches ... wtf.
|
u gotta skate8152 Posts
Get Up magic and fight!!!
|
Maybe if it somehow gets to ace we'll see Jaedong there for a change.
Also lol @ lecaf being called bland.
|
3-1 for lecaf with estro winning the 2on2. If somehow upmagic beats forgg lecaf can still send jaedong or anytime for ace and rape estro.
|
if anytime and jaedong is bland, you defintly do not watch starcraft
|
How someone can not like Lecaf is beyond me.
|
United States1865 Posts
Man Lecaf is one of the least bland teams out there. (Look at Jaedong when he plays! hes one of the few progamers that really look like they are into the game while they play)
I could see that label being applied to CJ, even though they are my second favorite team, because yeah they do have the CJ-face and most times are extremely subdued before/after/during games (Much's sleek <3 agaisnt FBH notwithstanding), but it really doesnt apply to Lecaf.
|
|
|
On June 09 2008 08:31 kyjori wrote:
if anytime and jaedong is bland, you defintly do not watch starcraft
They are, of course strong mechanical players, but I personally do not like that kind of style. Sure, it may be exciting to most people to watch typical play executed with brilliance, but you know from the very start how they're going to play and they'll play the game off like a boxing match.
Jaedong is like that light-weight, fast hitting bastard, frantically defeating his opponents in that fashion. Anytime is a hulking giant, methodically breaking down his opponent over a long game.
Not my cup of tea, they bring nothing exciting to me, they are like any other generic pro-gamer with strong mechanics. They also rarely bring emotion to the battlefield, and they plow their games like any other.
When you watch them play, you know how they're going to lose/win. You don't see savior-esque struggles from a disadvantage, nor the momentum of Bisu's dangerous moves.
Although I will admit, Jaedongs ZvZ is entertaining at times, but I never really liked his other styles of play.
Anytime and Jaedong bring nothing new to SC for me, and I will never ever forgive shinhwa for denying boxer.
Yes they are top tier players, but I simply don't like them, I love originality and even some flaws in my players. Thats why I think Casy is the shit
|
there is nothing like a DT rush against yellow or oov executed by anytime.
july[zerg] has an exciting, overaggressive zerg strat. he isnt considered boring. how is jaedong's aggressiveness a sign of boring mechanical play?
and randomko, u are a dumbass lol. all i can gauge is that you are some oversensitive little douche from the response i got from ur post
|
Everyone is a Julyzerg, a gorush, a chojja nowadays. Jaedong fits right into this 2nd-3rd generation of their mentors and he lacks originality for it. His muta micro is godly, his timing is pinpoint, and he looks invincible at times, but once you see it over and over again similarly from other players one way or another, its easy to clump that characteristic as part of a collaborative group.
Anytime was cool early on, crushing his opponents with his do or die dts and testing his "Fall" skills up to that point vs Nada, but you have to realize, for most of the seasons, hes rather boring. Ah yes, you've reminded me of that old anytime, when he was the new kid on the block who did all that funky shit to get up there. I will admit I neglected that when I wrote that post but what do you see him do now? He follows trends, he musters his mechanics, and hes a good player for it, but I don't think we'll ever see the 2005-2006 Fall funky Anytime, and his past plays over the course of this last year shows it.
|
The problem is that there is very little ways in which to be original nowadays. The "exciting" aspect of old-school players was in that they had visible faults but they made up for it with one or two abilities that made them stand out from the crowd: be it oov's macro, Julyzerg's and yellow's aggressiveness and micro, sAviOr's overall game management, etc. Now, all these styles have been combined into one resulting in very technically sound players such as Flash, Jaedong, etc. People who don't catch up with the trends or adapt fast enough instead opting for cute do or die strategies fall behind and are forgotten. So really, it isn't fair to call these players boring at all, it's just the style they play is so similar now that they can't create an obvious distinction for different fans.
|
On June 09 2008 10:07 ._. wrote:
Everyone is a Julyzerg, a gorush, a chojja nowadays. Jaedong fits right into this 2nd-3rd generation of their mentors and he lacks originality for it. His muta micro is godly, his timing is pinpoint, and he looks invincible at times, but once you see it over and over again similarly from other players one way or another, its easy to clump that characteristic as part of a collaborative group.
Anytime was cool early on, crushing his opponents with his do or die dts and testing his "Fall" skills up to that point vs Nada, but you have to realize, for most of the seasons, hes rather boring. Ah yes, you've reminded me of that old anytime, when he was the new kid on the block who did all that funky shit to get up there. I will admit I neglected that when I wrote that post but what do you see him do now? He follows trends, he musters his mechanics, and hes a good player for it, but I don't think we'll ever see the 2005-2006 Fall funky Anytime, and his past plays over the course of this last year shows it.
lets not forget lomo now, forgg is a macro beast but sometime he does pop out the cheese. i dunno, 2007 proleague season 2 had some great games played by anytime. not all of them generic boring play.
the problem is the maps FAVOR the player that goes standard, macro play. we do not have maps like 815, parallel lines and whatever. even with neo arkanoid there was freaking 2 natural expos inside that "island" starting positions.
but on new maps like andromeda, othello and what not, u cant even play low econ style because of narrow chokes, easy to defend expos, and what not. i think that is why everyone plays so fucking standard..
|
And that is why I cherish July/Boxer so much.
Boring is my own personal opinion it isn't a fact of the matter, a person can dislike a group if he wants based on his own biases right?
I don't like those who follow trends, I like the people who make trends. Everyone talked about how Katrina was impossible for TvP, and then Flash came along and raped the living hell out of every toss in existence on that map. He came up with an original solution of his own and other terrans have noticeably followed suit with variants of the "flash build". He didn't follow any desperate trends from other terrans, he wasn't pulled down to map dictated flow. He broke it entirely.
Savior played well on maps hard for ZvT when every other zerg suffered. He put 3 gas deflier usage on a whole new level, and opened eyes to incredible lengths. Jaedong dominates on balanced maps and in a similar train with the others, executing modern standardized play.
I would disagree that originality has "stagnated". There will be, to me, no doubt another original player will come out and rise, there always was one every year, that quality keeps the game alive imo.
kyjori u sound a little mad, lets not clutter this off topic discussion on this thread and do it over pm if you want.
The players I personally like are the ones that are not dictated by maps and trends imo.
|
|
|
Strong mechanics and strong standard play aside, I have a really hard time to see or understand how one can view Jaedong as a player that only does standard play and perfects it with mechanics?
Almost every game I see played by Jaedong, I sense (not only from his mechanical godness which no other player match in the world) his creativity and adaptability. The second makes it incredibly fun to watch him play imho.
And I'm sure no one has missed JDs recent play vs Protoss with his hydra burrow play and timing swap to mutas to deflect storms. We saw quite a few ZvPs after that doing the same things from players like Lux and yellow. It might not be entirely new, but the execution made it new and inovative and perhaps even trend making? Similar to the Flash-build.
I also agree with Wizards points, it's a big diffrence nowadays in general. The diffrences are created with small fundaments and those I can clearly see from players such as Jaedong.
Not saying people have no right to express their opinion I just feel some arguments are abit unfair here
|
On June 09 2008 10:59 Kyuki wrote:Strong mechanics and strong standard play aside, I have a really hard time to see or understand how one can view Jaedong as a player that only does standard play and perfects it with mechanics? Almost every game I see played by Jaedong, I sense (not only from his mechanical godness which no other player match in the world) his creativity and adaptability. The second makes it incredibly fun to watch him play imho. And I'm sure no one has missed JDs recent play vs Protoss with his hydra burrow play and timing swap to mutas to deflect storms. We saw quite a few ZvPs after that doing the same things from players like Lux and yellow. It might not be entirely new, but the execution made it new and inovative and perhaps even trend making? Similar to the Flash-build. I also agree with Wizards points, it's a big diffrence nowadays in general. The diffrences are created with small fundaments and those I can clearly see from players such as Jaedong. Not saying people have no right to express their opinion I just feel some arguments are abit unfair here
July's done all of this excellently before, and its been around for a long time. The most recent showing was a lost vs Bisu on blue storm where he almost caught the game but let his overaggressive tendency get a hold of him. Not new, even Savior's used this technique against fast expo and I bet Jae probably picked it up as well. Flash's build was genius in the sense that pretty much no one can emulate his wins on Katrina, although many have already tried to pick up with a trendy execution of its basic form. Kind of get the feeling Jaedong just made it something that went under the radar for a while and made it bigger for everyone else to notice, unfair to say that Jae started it all and was original for it.
His recent ZvTs have also been in quite shaky form, lacking this adaptability you've spoken of, losing a few games to people he shouldn't. but as of late he's looked invincible ZvP because he focus heavily on will power and multitasking, a quality that is rewarded most in ZvP, instead of that old intuitive grasp he had with ZvT, where he made the flow of the game look easy. His ZvP originally sucked cause he had no feel for that matchup, but he has found cute little patterns to mask that disability to fit his own style of mechanical, standard play. But it still, pretty much feels like so many zergs out there to me, and discerning it as his own creativity is something I don't buy.
Yeah I like the rare, anomalies from the other guys. It is an unfair way of looking at things, but pointing that out really isn't going to change anyone's sides on this opinion of this matter.
|
On June 09 2008 07:46 Wizard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2008 07:33 alffla wrote:oh yeah what the fuck 3 TvTs what is this shit no body is gonna watch this LOL if it goes to ace match it better be something good like Jaedong vs. UpMagic
Lets hope
|
fOrGG, Lomo, Lecaf
Lecaf wins 3-0 imo
|
On June 09 2008 11:25 ._. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2008 10:59 Kyuki wrote:Strong mechanics and strong standard play aside, I have a really hard time to see or understand how one can view Jaedong as a player that only does standard play and perfects it with mechanics? Almost every game I see played by Jaedong, I sense (not only from his mechanical godness which no other player match in the world) his creativity and adaptability. The second makes it incredibly fun to watch him play imho. And I'm sure no one has missed JDs recent play vs Protoss with his hydra burrow play and timing swap to mutas to deflect storms. We saw quite a few ZvPs after that doing the same things from players like Lux and yellow. It might not be entirely new, but the execution made it new and inovative and perhaps even trend making? Similar to the Flash-build. I also agree with Wizards points, it's a big diffrence nowadays in general. The diffrences are created with small fundaments and those I can clearly see from players such as Jaedong. Not saying people have no right to express their opinion I just feel some arguments are abit unfair here July's done all of this excellently before, and its been around for a long time. The most recent showing was a lost vs Bisu on blue storm where he almost caught the game but let his overaggressive tendency get a hold of him. Not new, even Savior's used this technique against fast expo and I bet Jae probably picked it up as well. Flash's build was genius in the sense that pretty much no one can emulate his wins on Katrina, although many have already tried to pick up with a trendy execution of its basic form. Kind of get the feeling Jaedong just made it something that went under the radar for a while and made it bigger for everyone else to notice, unfair to say that Jae started it all and was original for it. His recent ZvTs have also been in quite shaky form, lacking this adaptability you've spoken of, losing a few games to people he shouldn't. but as of late he's looked invincible ZvP b ecause he focus heavily on will power and multitasking, a quality that is rewarded most in ZvP, instead of that old intuitive grasp he had with ZvT, where he made the flow of the game look easy. His ZvP originally sucked cause he had no feel for that matchup, but he has found cute little patterns to mask that disability to fit his own style of mechanical, standard play. But it still, pretty much feels like so many zergs out there to me, and discerning it as his own creativity is something I don't buy. Yeah I like the rare, anomalies from the other guys. It is an unfair way of looking at things, but pointing that out really isn't going to change anyone's sides on this opinion of this matter.
Trend: Zerg players lose most of their games.
Fact: Jaedong wins most of his games.
Conclusion: Jaedong does not follow the trend of Zerg players losing most of their games.
Zerg is the race that depends the most on game sense. It also happens to be the race for which macro and unit control are the most difficult. Calling Jaedong "boring" because he manages to have a lot of units, control them well, and have them in good positions at the right time is as stupid as calling Flash uninspired. The standardization of skill Wizard refers to benefits Protoss and Terran players far more than it does Zerg players. Nowadays, a mid-level Protoss or Terran with strong macro and passable micro will almost always beat a mid-level Zerg with strong macro and passable micro, simply because game sense is a crucial and fragile skill that most Zerg players can never develop, whose absence (the mark of a mid-level player) hurts Zerg far more than it does Protoss or Terran. A Zerg who beats a Protoss these days is typically one or two levels above his opponent and had to play perfectly while his opponent made unforced errors (see yesterday's game between Luxury vs. Lucifer). A Zerg who forces errors in ZvP, as Jaedong does, is creative by definition: he understands the flow between economy, army, timing, and location and can orchestrate this flow to his advantage while disrupting his that of his opponent's. Your statements about the matchup and Jaedong's style are uninformed and wrong.
|
United States1865 Posts
On June 09 2008 13:34 EvoChamber wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2008 11:25 ._. wrote:On June 09 2008 10:59 Kyuki wrote:Strong mechanics and strong standard play aside, I have a really hard time to see or understand how one can view Jaedong as a player that only does standard play and perfects it with mechanics? Almost every game I see played by Jaedong, I sense (not only from his mechanical godness which no other player match in the world) his creativity and adaptability. The second makes it incredibly fun to watch him play imho. And I'm sure no one has missed JDs recent play vs Protoss with his hydra burrow play and timing swap to mutas to deflect storms. We saw quite a few ZvPs after that doing the same things from players like Lux and yellow. It might not be entirely new, but the execution made it new and inovative and perhaps even trend making? Similar to the Flash-build. I also agree with Wizards points, it's a big diffrence nowadays in general. The diffrences are created with small fundaments and those I can clearly see from players such as Jaedong. Not saying people have no right to express their opinion I just feel some arguments are abit unfair here July's done all of this excellently before, and its been around for a long time. The most recent showing was a lost vs Bisu on blue storm where he almost caught the game but let his overaggressive tendency get a hold of him. Not new, even Savior's used this technique against fast expo and I bet Jae probably picked it up as well. Flash's build was genius in the sense that pretty much no one can emulate his wins on Katrina, although many have already tried to pick up with a trendy execution of its basic form. Kind of get the feeling Jaedong just made it something that went under the radar for a while and made it bigger for everyone else to notice, unfair to say that Jae started it all and was original for it. His recent ZvTs have also been in quite shaky form, lacking this adaptability you've spoken of, losing a few games to people he shouldn't. but as of late he's looked invincible ZvP b ecause he focus heavily on will power and multitasking, a quality that is rewarded most in ZvP, instead of that old intuitive grasp he had with ZvT, where he made the flow of the game look easy. His ZvP originally sucked cause he had no feel for that matchup, but he has found cute little patterns to mask that disability to fit his own style of mechanical, standard play. But it still, pretty much feels like so many zergs out there to me, and discerning it as his own creativity is something I don't buy. Yeah I like the rare, anomalies from the other guys. It is an unfair way of looking at things, but pointing that out really isn't going to change anyone's sides on this opinion of this matter. Trend: Zerg players lose most of their games. Fact: Jaedong wins most of his games. Conclusion: Jaedong does not follow the trend of Zerg players losing most of their games. Zerg is the race that depends the most on game sense. It also happens to be the race for which macro and unit control are the most difficult. Calling Jaedong "boring" because he manages to have a lot of units, control them well, and have them in good positions at the right time is as stupid as calling Flash uninspired. The standardization of skill Wizard refers to benefits Protoss and Terran players far more than it does Zerg players. Nowadays, a mid-level Protoss or Terran with strong macro and passable micro will almost always beat a mid-level Zerg with strong macro and passable micro, simply because game sense is a crucial and fragile skill that most Zerg players can never develop, whose absence (the mark of a mid-level player) hurts Zerg far more than it does Protoss or Terran. A Zerg who beats a Protoss these days is typically one or two levels above his opponent and had to play perfectly while his opponent made unforced errors (see yesterday's game between Luxury vs. Lucifer). A Zerg who forces errors in ZvP, as Jaedong does, is creative by definition: he understands the flow between economy, army, timing, and location and can orchestrate this flow to his advantage while disrupting his that of his opponent's. Your statements about the matchup and Jaedong's style are uninformed and wrong.
Great post. I was just trying to write one like it but you articulated it perfectly.
Its within your full right to have the opinion that Jaedong is boring, but some of the "facts" you were stating are plain false, and there is an enormous amount of details in jaedongs play that show him to be far more than just the zerg with the best multitask. His games vs Bisu in particular are some of the most inspired ZvP i've seen since early-mid sAviOr.
|
|
|
I can't believe all of the people calling Jaedong and Anytime "boring", "uninventive", etc.
Name a zerg player, other than Jaedong or Luxury, that is having any type of success right now. Oh wait, you can't. Somehow, in this era of zerg-death, JD and Lux are managing to stay alive. Is this pure chance? I doubt it.
Anytime... well, he's fallen a lot since last season. But still, he was rather unique back in his day. You wouldn't say that Nada's boring, even though he follows others' trends nowadays. Same goes with Savior, Xellos, etc.
|
|
|
O christ I was afraid I was gonna nitpicked for that statement.
Calling Zerg the race with the most game sense the one with the most macro difficult and unit control difficult feels like a lot of bias to me. you are being as presumptuous as my initial statements were by concurring from your own opinion and perspective from your own view.
If anything, his series vs Kal was by far the most "inspiring". Raw will and insane recovery from macroing and replacing his drones and unit count. His first game vs Bisu was incredible, as he won that game in a similar fashion. but 2nd-3rd was mostly the fault of Bisu. seriously, he made 2 citadels in one game and cluttered his buildings up together making it shit vs drops.
Zerg has superior recon in the ZvP matchup, zerg can get away with denying protoss early game scouting and its near impossible to stop a 2 hatch all-in if the zerg's got all corners covered. Protoss FE follow up of course.
If you seen his games in old replays and old vods you can clearly see his ZvP was quite weaker to his other matchups and its only been recently he's leveled his game sense in that match up.
Causation does not always mean correlation with your analogy. Jae antes up his play with his mechanics while staying true to formulaic zerg play. He indeed plays like any pro zerg and there is nothing wrong with the trends of these poor "losing" zergs as they practice hours on end for optimal builds and timing, he executes these trends well enough by his own accord to get to where he is today.
|
On June 09 2008 13:53 Sunyveil wrote:
I can't believe all of the people calling Jaedong and Anytime "boring", "uninventive", etc.
Name a zerg player, other than Jaedong or Luxury, that is having any type of success right now. Oh wait, you can't. Somehow, in this era of zerg-death, JD and Lux are managing to stay alive. Is this pure chance? I doubt it.
Anytime... well, he's fallen a lot since last season. But still, he was rather unique back in his day. You wouldn't say that Nada's boring, even though he follows others' trends nowadays. Same goes with Savior, Xellos, etc.
I feel there are many zerg players waiting for their chances and have not been able to see the starlight .I can name you quite a few zergs that I find amazing, it may be a while before we see them. Remember savior got denied osl x4 in prelims during his prime? wtf was that about? Was he not good enough? Same with Jae, absolutely dominating even his proleague games, but it took him awhile to break out.
|
On June 09 2008 07:46 Wizard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2008 07:33 alffla wrote:oh yeah what the fuck 3 TvTs what is this shit no body is gonna watch this LOL if it goes to ace match it better be something good like Jaedong vs. UpMagic
Jaedong v. Goodfriend would be better, UpMagic hasn't played well in like, forever.
|
On June 09 2008 13:56 ._. wrote:
O christ I was afraid I was gonna nitpicked for that statement.
Calling Zerg the race with the most game sense the one with the most macro difficult and unit control difficult feels like a lot of bias to me. you are being as presumptuous as my initial statements were by concurring from your own opinion and perspective from your own view.
If anything, his series vs Kal was by far the most "inspiring". Raw will and insane recovery from macroing and replacing his drones and unit count. His first game vs Bisu was incredible, as he won that game in a similar fashion. but 2nd-3rd was mostly the fault of Bisu. seriously, he made 2 citadels in one game and cluttered his buildings up together making it shit vs drops.
Zerg has superior recon in the ZvP matchup, zerg can get away with denying protoss early game scouting and its near impossible to stop a 2 hatch all-in if the zerg's got all corners covered. Protoss FE follow up of course.
If you seen his games in old replays and old vods you can clearly see his ZvP was quite weaker to his other matchups and its only been recently he's leveled his game sense in that match up.
Causation does not always mean correlation with your analogy. Jae antes up his play with his mechanics while staying true to formulaic zerg play. He indeed plays like any pro zerg and there is nothing wrong with the trends of these poor "losing" zergs as they practice hours on end for optimal builds and timing, he executes these trends well enough by his own accord to get to where he is today.
Zerg units have far less HP than Protoss units, and far less range than Terran units. They are supposed to be more numerous, though there's been very little evidence of that in recent matches. Their combat units are built from the same larvae as their workers; the trade-off between economy and army is direct and painful. That's why when Terran sacrifices worker production for more units, it's a timing push, whereas when Zerg sacrifices worker production for more units, it's an all-in. Deciding when to build drones and when to build combat units is dependent on correctly reading the flow of the game, otherwise known as game sense. Terran and Protoss macro can be standardized/mechanized because they have specialized unit production. Zerg macro can never be standardized because workers and fighters are drawn from the same limited pool of larva. Thus macro and game sense can't be detached from one another. A faulty game sense is tolerable for Protoss, a burden for Terran, and death for Zerg, since it directly affects his economy. If Zerg units are more fragile and have less range, then they need to be managed more closely. If there are more Zerg units, then they are harder to manage.
But of course this is just my bias, right?
Raw will is worthless. It has to be channeled to be effective. Jaedong didn't beat Kal by gritting his teeth or howling at the monitor.
The fact that Jaedong had to improve his ZvP matchup proves nothing, since no one was arguing that he had mastered ZvP since his first days as a progamer.
Claiming that 2hatch all-ins versus Protoss FE are invincible simply shows how little you know about both ZvP and about the term "all-in."
You don't amplify mechanics with play in Zerg. Mechanics and game sense are the same thing. There is no set formula, only feel. Jaedong wins as much as he does because he understands this and acts based on this.
btw, it looks like just because you know that long words like "concurring," "causation," and "correlation" exist doesn't mean that you can use them "correctly" or well.
|
United States1865 Posts
On June 09 2008 15:31 Metallingus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2008 07:46 Wizard wrote:On June 09 2008 07:33 alffla wrote:oh yeah what the fuck 3 TvTs what is this shit no body is gonna watch this LOL if it goes to ace match it better be something good like Jaedong vs. UpMagic Jaedong v. Goodfriend would be better, UpMagic hasn't played well in like, forever.
Lol to be more specific, he hasnt played well since he lost to Jaedong 3-0, so yeah I dont think UpMagic/Jaedong as ace would be a very hard win for LJD.
|
This is a pretty good discussion, and it's a shame it's going to be buried here pretty soon. I'll just add one thing.
It should be fairly obvious that a huge part of zerg success lies in the complete mastery of the game just by examining the various zerg players that have come across in recent times. In Yellow's day, zerg didn't need to be perfect because terran was not yet perfect. Once players like NaDa and oov came around and revolutionized the way the game was played, it took a lot more than smart lurker play to win.
Savior, of course, is the perfect example of what it means to master the zerg race. Savior did not burst onto the scene like the majority of the great terran and protoss players do. That's usually not how it works with zerg. IPXZerg was around for quite some time before becoming the maestro. However, there is a point in a zerg's tenure as a great player in which if he has the ultimate game sense and knowledge of his opponents and how they play, he will become nearly invincible. Very little changed for Savior mechanics-wise when he became the amazing player he was in his prime. It was rather strange how he was able to become so damn unstoppable without doing anything 'game breaking'. Sure, his play was definitely top-notch, but it was his decision making and game sense that brought him to the ultimate level.
Jaedong has really followed a similar path, and I believe we would be talking about him in much the same manner as Savior if not for his surge coinciding with the new terran monster of recent day. Jaedong has been around, and he seemed to be a decent zerg, but not much more. Then, it seemed almost overnight, he was mercilessly tearing through player after player with the micro skills of July and the absolute game mastery of Savior, except maybe even better. There just seems to be a point when something 'clicks' for zerg players, and everything is going their way.
I guess the overall point is that game sense is a huge aspect of the game for every race, and every great starcraft player over the years has been at their best because of it. However, it just seems to make or break zerg players in a much more drastic sense than it does other races.
|
Anytime was/is a strategic genius. Yeah he has solid mechanics, but his success is due to his game sense.
Jaedong's mechanics, however, have far more to do with his success. His style reminds me so much of July, except better.
I don't see how either of these makes a player boring. They both use very diverse builds, have short/long games, and can make for very exciting comebacks or defeats.
Take Savior. He style is very deliberate. He won't attack you with his zerglings if he hasn't been planning it since before the game started. If the terran has buildings exposed to muta harrass, but he already killed a few scvs, he will be content to just expand and macro. If his defilers are building, he will wait for them even if he doesn't need to. Stork also. He never harrasses. He expands and attacks only when he is comfortable. These styles to me are boring.
|
On June 09 2008 07:00 freelander wrote:really sweet op! the best i've seen between among ops
|
On June 09 2008 16:42 QibingZero wrote:
Jaedong has really followed a similar path, and I believe we would be talking about him in much the same manner as Savior if not for his surge coinciding with the new terran monster of recent day. Jaedong has been around, and he seemed to be a decent zerg, but not much more. Then, it seemed almost overnight, he was mercilessly tearing through player after player with the micro skills of July and the absolute game mastery of Savior, except maybe even better. There just seems to be a point when something 'clicks' for zerg players, and everything is going their way.
Jaedong has not been "around." He is a very new progamer. And he was good almost as soon as he started. He was the prodigy of the Lecaf team.
|
No thread up for the other match?
|
|
|
Hungary11297 Posts
I would appreciate some live-reports, as I am currently not able to watch. Thanks guys!
|
Unfortunately, Jaedong isn't playing today. It's 3 TvT matches. So we'll need more Jaedong discussion soon - to distract us from 24 hours of battlecruiser bingo.
Aesop I am happy to report.
|
Why would you watch TvTs? I rather watch SKT vs ACE than a bunch of no-name terrans getting slaughtered by a bunch of up-and-coming terrans...
|
Okay, fOrGG vs UpMagic. Both 5-5 last 10 vT, Kespas 22 and 17 respectively, etc.
My Daum stream is dying a lot - I don't know why, I can't read the error message - so I'm sorry if I cut out.
|
Yellow 5 and blue 7 respectively for forGG and Up. Both are going FE.
|
How do you all feel about the Lecaf gum policy?
Lately all the players have been chewing gum during games... I don't know if it's some sort of advertisement for some random korean gum, or maybe a show of disrespect to the other team by a display of taking it casually... Ionno how I feel about it.
|
Both scout up (wrong way for both). Both making factories. forGG has a bunker outside his nat. So does UpMagic. The scouting SCVs meet, pass each other, continue to the right bases. forGG is up an SCV despite mirror build, since bunker killed Up's and not his. Starport and second fact going up for Up. Third fact? Armory and academy for forGG. Up researching cloak for wraiths.
|
A wraith of Up's was turned away, being repaired now. Two cloaked wraiths take down (? DAUM!!! ugh) a dropship. Sieging up midmap. Looks like up at 5 tanks/2 wraiths to 4 tanks/4 gols for forGG, about now. Both players getting 3rd. forGG breaks Up's siege to his north rather than going to the west. Huge overmatch of forces, forGG breaks the other contain as well. Just a few tanks sieging outside Up's 3rd, this looks grim.
|
Tanks stop mining at Up's 3rd. forGG setting up like 4th and 5th. A billion gols destroy the shit out of a sniping wraith. Up going for a 4th. forGG setting up a new barracks (his was killed). Make that something like six CCs up for forGG. Big battle outside Up's potential 4th (9 o'clock). Up seems to hold the passage. His tank count has improved. Lomo and someone (I know I recognized him) watching game intently. Totally cute. Oh, Up had to retreat from 4th, now setting up a new one. forGG setting up a missile turret right next to Up's 4th CC, what a dick.
|
Hungary11297 Posts
forGG is so greedy
|
It fits his gamestyle to a T.
|
Wraiths now coming out for forGG, and Up not as far behind on tanks. Getting that 9 o'clock base back. Unit count is evening up but forGG's base advantage will kick in like nuts soon I expect. Have not thought to check upgrades; one side was at 0/0. Both sides at 0/0 I think. forGG now seriously out-wraithing Up, has a genuine control group out there harassing SCVs and tanks. Not many goliaths for Up. He builds some turrets but meh. Attempts to expand some more but the wraiths shut it down.
|
forGG's wraiths are now basically rocking the shit out of all of Up's tanks and expos, there's very little for him to do in response except make some lame wraiths that get killed very soon. Up builds a few goliaths, there's a smart Terran now. forGG starts like six new factories at once. I have to admit he is owning but sort of acting like a bitch while he does that. Up's wraiths run into some goliaths, get slaughtered. forGG sieges the shit out of 9 o'clock expo AGAIN, SCVs run away. Counterattack by Up on forGG's base around 5:30 midmap. Seems to have been somewhat effective, a failure would have been almost certain GG.
|
forGG now sieging Up's 3rd, gets taken down by some wraiths but kills most of the SCVs. Armories everywhere for forGG, tanks show 0/2 to 0/0 for Up. forGG runs an SCV into Up's next 11 o'clock expo and a sieged tank of Up's kills more of Up's SCVs than forGG's. What a silly move. Daum buffers and when we return we see some blue tanks killing some yellow tanks and Up GGs.
|
On June 09 2008 18:43 Nintu wrote:
How do you all feel about the Lecaf gum policy?
Lately all the players have been chewing gum during games... I don't know if it's some sort of advertisement for some random korean gum, or maybe a show of disrespect to the other team by a display of taking it casually... Ionno how I feel about it.
Nevermind, I figured it out.
|
Hungary11297 Posts
I might be unfair, but it sounds like a typical Upmagic game. Be smart in the beginning, try to do something clever, get stomped by someone with better mechanics and macro.
|
Yeah. Except, well, it wasn't that clever, since it failed right away.
Now Lomo v. Really. Lomo is one of my favorites so forgive me if the commentary is a little biased.
|
Lomo (white 7) with a proxy 8rax. Really (blue 11) with standard 12rax/gas. Double scout for Lomo, one of them gets it right. Not the one that the proxy is nearer, though.
Stream buffers and... Marines invading Really's main, Lomo bunkering up while Really sets up a factory. SCVs come off mine line for Really, unsurprisingly. Lomo's attack fails and marines come out and destroy the bunker. Vulture out for Really and now he machine-shops it. More marines in from Lomo but they fail - meanwhile Really's vulture attacks his base. Starport for Really, more factories and an armory for Lomo. Wraith coming over to harass, two vultures (Lomo) fight a tank (Really). Goliaths coming out for Lomo. Really expanding, Lomo not. After failed attack he is behind.
|
Lomo expands to his nat, has a pretty respectable force with tanks, vultures, goliaths. Small fight around midmap. Really near to 6facts. Sieged around 9 o'clock.
Really seems to take the siege battle, no movement but a clear tank advantage. Taking his 3rd? not sure. A sizable vulture contingent moving down from Really.
|
|
|
A lot of Lomo's tanks destroyed by good mining on Really's part. Midmap siege war still inconclusive. Really beginning to have perceptible unit advantage. Sets up a 4th as Lomo goes for 3rd. Pushes through the middle. Sieges right over Lomo's 3rd. This does not look good. Lomo agrees. GG.
|
In the end Really just rolls over lomo with huge army of unsieged tanks and vultures. It seems that failed rush of lomo lost him the game
|
Hungary11297 Posts
Winstreak broken, poor Lomo.
And he is up to meet Flash next. Double poor Lomo.
On the other hand, in GSL he is up against Odin. That one is winnable at least.
|
Lomo v Flash? That's exciting. Lomo has really great TvT, it was just this failed rush that messed this one up. I agree with jetpower.
BTW, try to watch a little of GoRush v Rage on YouTube - I won't spoil it, but some very, very unconventional play with very diverse use of spells.
|
Sea.really is like estro's only hope
|
Really really isn't usually that good, though.
Sorry about the delay. Positions: ToSky/BackHo purple 11/red 2; hyvaa/tester teal 8/blue 5. Appears to be normal 2v2 so far.
|
Lots of corsairs out for BackHo, not looking good re: hyvaa's overlord count. Dragoons and scourge to counter them, and eSTRO attempts to raid BackHo while he's out pirating. Probes off mineral line to block ramp after a zealot on zealot struggle. ToSky sends a whole bunch of zerglings in after hyvaa now, does not look good for him. Some of tester's dragoons come in to try and save the day and they do okay. DT coming out for BackHo, this looks pretty done.
|
United States1865 Posts
BackHo's ramp defense against Tester was fucking spartan
|
Massive zergling force from ToSky dies to dragoon/drone block from eSTRO, but corsairs take the opportunity to run in and kill even more overlords. More zerglings from ToSky, tester basically on his own. He tries to expand. Zerglings killing it, zealots intervene. Someone from Lecaf yelling, don't know which is which. DTs out for tester too now. Slicing at a force of red zealots. Huge zealot/zergling combined force for Lecaf but a substantial defense including cannons, archons, HTs, overlord from hyvaa lol. Now tester moving across the map.
|
Nice shuttle snipe by some of hyvaa's scourge! He can still do... stuff. tester doing a good job basically on his own though. Sends some zealots after some high templars who were over his expansion. A shuttle of tester's own gets sniped, but not after a great near-escape. hyvaa has mutas but now his drones get stormed! ugh.
|
Ok, finally the push into tester's. hyvaa comes back to defend with his mutas but this will be GG. Nat goes down, army down, everything down with purple and red all over his base. Some DTs coming out but there can't honestly be a chance for eSTRO here. Attack is sent away at least. eSTRO GGs after it calms down because there is no way they can recover. Huge deficit.
|
that maelstorm was sick on hyvaas mutas, gg
|
Hey guys, sorry I haven't been reporting this one. Just waiting for Suny to go down. HiyA pretty much has it.
|
|
|
Suny really uses his Scvs alot. Lost alot of scvs defending
|
Short summary: HiyA with insane map control, turrets and bases everywhere, tons of units, Suny dropshipping everything around the edges, sieged up everywhere. Losing maybe his only mining expansion as I type. A successful drop past all those turrets. Suny crying, that must have been ridiculously frustrating. GG. Don't know why HiyA didn't just win. Humiliating map control, about 80% of it, complete immobilization.
|
Haha I just noticed the outfits of the commentators.
Very... butch.
edit: in the SKT vs ACE match.
|
|
|
On June 09 2008 15:44 EvoChamber wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2008 13:56 ._. wrote:
O christ I was afraid I was gonna nitpicked for that statement.
Calling Zerg the race with the most game sense the one with the most macro difficult and unit control difficult feels like a lot of bias to me. you are being as presumptuous as my initial statements were by concurring from your own opinion and perspective from your own view.
If anything, his series vs Kal was by far the most "inspiring". Raw will and insane recovery from macroing and replacing his drones and unit count. His first game vs Bisu was incredible, as he won that game in a similar fashion. but 2nd-3rd was mostly the fault of Bisu. seriously, he made 2 citadels in one game and cluttered his buildings up together making it shit vs drops.
Zerg has superior recon in the ZvP matchup, zerg can get away with denying protoss early game scouting and its near impossible to stop a 2 hatch all-in if the zerg's got all corners covered. Protoss FE follow up of course.
If you seen his games in old replays and old vods you can clearly see his ZvP was quite weaker to his other matchups and its only been recently he's leveled his game sense in that match up.
Causation does not always mean correlation with your analogy. Jae antes up his play with his mechanics while staying true to formulaic zerg play. He indeed plays like any pro zerg and there is nothing wrong with the trends of these poor "losing" zergs as they practice hours on end for optimal builds and timing, he executes these trends well enough by his own accord to get to where he is today. Zerg units have far less HP than Protoss units, and far less range than Terran units. They are supposed to be more numerous, though there's been very little evidence of that in recent matches. Their combat units are built from the same larvae as their workers; the trade-off between economy and army is direct and painful. That's why when Terran sacrifices worker production for more units, it's a timing push, whereas when Zerg sacrifices worker production for more units, it's an all-in. Deciding when to build drones and when to build combat units is dependent on correctly reading the flow of the game, otherwise known as game sense. Terran and Protoss macro can be standardized/mechanized because they have specialized unit production. Zerg macro can never be standardized because workers and fighters are drawn from the same limited pool of larva. Thus macro and game sense can't be detached from one another. A faulty game sense is tolerable for Protoss, a burden for Terran, and death for Zerg, since it directly affects his economy. If Zerg units are more fragile and have less range, then they need to be managed more closely. If there are more Zerg units, then they are harder to manage. But of course this is just my bias, right? Raw will is worthless. It has to be channeled to be effective. Jaedong didn't beat Kal by gritting his teeth or howling at the monitor. The fact that Jaedong had to improve his ZvP matchup proves nothing, since no one was arguing that he had mastered ZvP since his first days as a progamer. Claiming that 2hatch all-ins versus Protoss FE are invincible simply shows how little you know about both ZvP and about the term "all-in." You don't amplify mechanics with play in Zerg. Mechanics and game sense are the same thing. There is no set formula, only feel. Jaedong wins as much as he does because he understands this and acts based on this. btw, it looks like just because you know that long words like "concurring," "causation," and "correlation" exist doesn't mean that you can use them "correctly" or well.
You talk like you know the game in and out on a pro-gaming level and this is coming out from your own level of analysis. One can argue terran is the hardest race because of the difficulty multitasking the difficult nature of TvZ in late game against hive tech units and fragility of their abiltiy early game. But of course they're ranged and have units that shoot half way across the map and they have more hp and we all know that zerglings are so much harder to clump and micro efficiently. Thats pretty damn arrogant statement to make, going as far as telling me how the game balance is. If you were a pro-gamer and you told me this, I would be more convinced, but your own personal reference is not enough.
Wasn't there an old thread about what race you think was hardest and Terran got the most votes by tl.netters?
Raw will is worthless? Qualities of intuition and logic go under the same intelligence?
I read up some psychological pieces on my free time:
http://artificial-intuition.com/intuition.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_(knowledge)
Read through it all. Think of the logical puzzles found in a typical game of BW and how he plays through the game. I personally interpret Jaedong's play as something highly logical and the mistakes he make does not always show adaptive play. When he's getting pounded in ZvT, he makes all the practical decision making and choices involved with practice, such as that loss vs Inter.Mind on Blue Storm. He attacked without using his defliers when he had them out and he relied on his own estimated timing that it was an open door for a flanking to further escalate his effectiveness with his deflier on a more offensive ground for later. Bad move, cost him the game. Did he get too cocky? overly confident? Had a clear feel of that game? A man can judge art by his own accord, interpret movie endings by his own way as he pleases, and your telling me that basis is wrong as hell.
Make only four sunkens on a map with close positions with the terran and without even scouting him, get raped by a sunken break. Brilliant and intuitive, but my guess is he probably had so much confidence in his opening through practice he made the choice to do something like that. That was a practical decision, and so far off from this intuitive, sixth sense player. The games he wins are the ones where he simply makes practical decisions based on advantages, or in defensive positions. No mind-blowing wtf moments based on decisions, he is to me, a very practical player, not like Gorush/Savior. You can argue that recent game with him vs Lucifer was mind blowing and "Wtf", but he won that game with concise micro and building placement. Especially when he entangled the first zealots between his well placed creep/hach gap.
Now lets look at the skills for ZvP. I find it similar in aspect to the qualities a good PvT'er has. Focus on lower tier units, macro well, and have strong variability with introductory build orders..-->Dt drop/reaver vs 3 hatch muta/hydra break. Fast lings-->Zeal harass. And in many cases, they are the aggressors, dictators of the early-midgame because of their formula based on more cost effective early units and their ability to mass intensely more than the opposing race, as well as having the ability to contain their opponent early on. However a big difference is that the Zerg knows exactly what the intro build for the protoss is. This is unique in the for interracial matchups, as zerg is not allowed it in ZvT due to marines and in other mu's its about smelling/guessing from what you see. Of course, the good ol' proxy will catch you off guard, but for most games, this is the factor.
When you see whats coming at you, its a problem-solution basis. A test question you can read right on the paper, not like some abstract art you try to interpret as a logical message.
(significantly higher more gateways in PvT as supposed to the Terran in TvP, significantly faster unit production in ZvP as supposed to the Protoss)
Are you telling me that Jaedong was godly in ZvP since his early days? Are you kidding me? He lost to Nal_rock 1-3, got raped left and right by 3rd rate protoss, an ex by name the of Tester[gm]. His ZvP was suspect back then and he held a substantial mediocre 50% win rate. When Finals came around for him vs Stork, he transformed himself, and then he became the Jaedong he knew now. That stress and will to win, is useless? It is admirable to see, and it is an important psychological aspect of competition, as you can see from the pitiful weak-minded Stork.
I'm sorry I should have reiterated my statements more clearly because you are being condescending and nitpicking my statements without seeing it more depth. When a protoss goes FE he takes a risk with various predicaments. If zerg fast pools with speed he can deny probe scouting, forcing the p into a harrowing guessing game. Despite best efforts,he clearly does not know the whole plan of what is coming. He go for sair tech asap but that window of opportunity is still there. He can cannon up and risk zerg going for more expansions, cannon up front and end up getting muta'd, or have lings run by in Mondragon'esque style. This disadvantage has been shown in game 4 of Kal vs Jaedong, Daezang vs Luxury on blue storm, and it was the basis for many people whinning about pvz imbalance.
Correlation does not mean causation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
Not some "fancy" long word I use to mask my horrible horrible English skills.
Please, let's talk this over PM. I'll gladly talk it over with you, I hate cluttering up topics with discussion like these.
Annnd I'm late for school, damn sc -_-
|
Evochamber isn't arguing that zerg is the hardest race to play, he's simply arguing that playing zerg requires the most game sense because of how the production method works. Playing as other races, many times you can simply train up your micro-macro and continually get better, but as a zerg you have to have the superior grasp and understanding of the timing and flow of the game (which is much harder to learn or gain through practice) in order to succeed, especially in the current pro-scene. Which is why zerg players are losing more recently, as top players in other races begin to gain better and better micro-macro, zerg players simply can't keep up as a better micro-macro doesn't help them nearly as much if they still don't have the understanding of how the game plays out.
On June 09 2008 13:56 ._. wrote:Causation does not always mean correlation with your analogy..
Linking wikipedia articles doesn't make you look smart.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7649/lecafestro1aq2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.mymym.com/gfx/proleague2008_lecafoz1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/377/badmirrorii6.jpg)
