EPT[Shinhan PL] Lecaf OZ vs eSTRO June '08 - Page 2
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lIlIlIlIlIlI
Korea (South)3851 Posts
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._.
1133 Posts
On June 09 2008 08:31 kyjori wrote: if anytime and jaedong is bland, you defintly do not watch starcraft They are, of course strong mechanical players, but I personally do not like that kind of style. Sure, it may be exciting to most people to watch typical play executed with brilliance, but you know from the very start how they're going to play and they'll play the game off like a boxing match. Jaedong is like that light-weight, fast hitting bastard, frantically defeating his opponents in that fashion. Anytime is a hulking giant, methodically breaking down his opponent over a long game. Not my cup of tea, they bring nothing exciting to me, they are like any other generic pro-gamer with strong mechanics. They also rarely bring emotion to the battlefield, and they plow their games like any other. When you watch them play, you know how they're going to lose/win. You don't see savior-esque struggles from a disadvantage, nor the momentum of Bisu's dangerous moves. Although I will admit, Jaedongs ZvZ is entertaining at times, but I never really liked his other styles of play. Anytime and Jaedong bring nothing new to SC for me, and I will never ever forgive shinhwa for denying boxer. Yes they are top tier players, but I simply don't like them, I love originality and even some flaws in my players. Thats why I think Casy is the shit  | ||
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kyjori
371 Posts
july[zerg] has an exciting, overaggressive zerg strat. he isnt considered boring. how is jaedong's aggressiveness a sign of boring mechanical play? and randomko, u are a dumbass lol. all i can gauge is that you are some oversensitive little douche from the response i got from ur post | ||
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1133 Posts
Anytime was cool early on, crushing his opponents with his do or die dts and testing his "Fall" skills up to that point vs Nada, but you have to realize, for most of the seasons, hes rather boring. Ah yes, you've reminded me of that old anytime, when he was the new kid on the block who did all that funky shit to get up there. I will admit I neglected that when I wrote that post but what do you see him do now? He follows trends, he musters his mechanics, and hes a good player for it, but I don't think we'll ever see the 2005-2006 Fall funky Anytime, and his past plays over the course of this last year shows it. | ||
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Wizard
Poland5055 Posts
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kyjori
371 Posts
On June 09 2008 10:07 ._. wrote: Everyone is a Julyzerg, a gorush, a chojja nowadays. Jaedong fits right into this 2nd-3rd generation of their mentors and he lacks originality for it. His muta micro is godly, his timing is pinpoint, and he looks invincible at times, but once you see it over and over again similarly from other players one way or another, its easy to clump that characteristic as part of a collaborative group. Anytime was cool early on, crushing his opponents with his do or die dts and testing his "Fall" skills up to that point vs Nada, but you have to realize, for most of the seasons, hes rather boring. Ah yes, you've reminded me of that old anytime, when he was the new kid on the block who did all that funky shit to get up there. I will admit I neglected that when I wrote that post but what do you see him do now? He follows trends, he musters his mechanics, and hes a good player for it, but I don't think we'll ever see the 2005-2006 Fall funky Anytime, and his past plays over the course of this last year shows it. lets not forget lomo now, forgg is a macro beast but sometime he does pop out the cheese. i dunno, 2007 proleague season 2 had some great games played by anytime. not all of them generic boring play. the problem is the maps FAVOR the player that goes standard, macro play. we do not have maps like 815, parallel lines and whatever. even with neo arkanoid there was freaking 2 natural expos inside that "island" starting positions. but on new maps like andromeda, othello and what not, u cant even play low econ style because of narrow chokes, easy to defend expos, and what not. i think that is why everyone plays so fucking standard.. | ||
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1133 Posts
Boring is my own personal opinion it isn't a fact of the matter, a person can dislike a group if he wants based on his own biases right? I don't like those who follow trends, I like the people who make trends. Everyone talked about how Katrina was impossible for TvP, and then Flash came along and raped the living hell out of every toss in existence on that map. He came up with an original solution of his own and other terrans have noticeably followed suit with variants of the "flash build". He didn't follow any desperate trends from other terrans, he wasn't pulled down to map dictated flow. He broke it entirely. Savior played well on maps hard for ZvT when every other zerg suffered. He put 3 gas deflier usage on a whole new level, and opened eyes to incredible lengths. Jaedong dominates on balanced maps and in a similar train with the others, executing modern standardized play. I would disagree that originality has "stagnated". There will be, to me, no doubt another original player will come out and rise, there always was one every year, that quality keeps the game alive imo. kyjori u sound a little mad, lets not clutter this off topic discussion on this thread and do it over pm if you want. The players I personally like are the ones that are not dictated by maps and trends imo. | ||
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Descent
1244 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
Almost every game I see played by Jaedong, I sense (not only from his mechanical godness which no other player match in the world) his creativity and adaptability. The second makes it incredibly fun to watch him play imho. And I'm sure no one has missed JDs recent play vs Protoss with his hydra burrow play and timing swap to mutas to deflect storms. We saw quite a few ZvPs after that doing the same things from players like Lux and yellow. It might not be entirely new, but the execution made it new and inovative and perhaps even trend making? Similar to the Flash-build. I also agree with Wizards points, it's a big diffrence nowadays in general. The diffrences are created with small fundaments and those I can clearly see from players such as Jaedong. Not saying people have no right to express their opinion I just feel some arguments are abit unfair here  | ||
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._.
1133 Posts
On June 09 2008 10:59 Kyuki wrote: Strong mechanics and strong standard play aside, I have a really hard time to see or understand how one can view Jaedong as a player that only does standard play and perfects it with mechanics? Almost every game I see played by Jaedong, I sense (not only from his mechanical godness which no other player match in the world) his creativity and adaptability. The second makes it incredibly fun to watch him play imho. And I'm sure no one has missed JDs recent play vs Protoss with his hydra burrow play and timing swap to mutas to deflect storms. We saw quite a few ZvPs after that doing the same things from players like Lux and yellow. It might not be entirely new, but the execution made it new and inovative and perhaps even trend making? Similar to the Flash-build. I also agree with Wizards points, it's a big diffrence nowadays in general. The diffrences are created with small fundaments and those I can clearly see from players such as Jaedong. Not saying people have no right to express their opinion I just feel some arguments are abit unfair here July's done all of this excellently before, and its been around for a long time. The most recent showing was a lost vs Bisu on blue storm where he almost caught the game but let his overaggressive tendency get a hold of him. Not new, even Savior's used this technique against fast expo and I bet Jae probably picked it up as well. Flash's build was genius in the sense that pretty much no one can emulate his wins on Katrina, although many have already tried to pick up with a trendy execution of its basic form. Kind of get the feeling Jaedong just made it something that went under the radar for a while and made it bigger for everyone else to notice, unfair to say that Jae started it all and was original for it. His recent ZvTs have also been in quite shaky form, lacking this adaptability you've spoken of, losing a few games to people he shouldn't. but as of late he's looked invincible ZvP because he focus heavily on will power and multitasking, a quality that is rewarded most in ZvP, instead of that old intuitive grasp he had with ZvT, where he made the flow of the game look easy. His ZvP originally sucked cause he had no feel for that matchup, but he has found cute little patterns to mask that disability to fit his own style of mechanical, standard play. But it still, pretty much feels like so many zergs out there to me, and discerning it as his own creativity is something I don't buy. Yeah I like the rare, anomalies from the other guys. It is an unfair way of looking at things, but pointing that out really isn't going to change anyone's sides on this opinion of this matter. | ||
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Marine50
Australia1764 Posts
On June 09 2008 07:46 Wizard wrote: if it goes to ace match it better be something good like Jaedong vs. UpMagic Lets hope | ||
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clazziquai
6685 Posts
Lecaf wins 3-0 imo | ||
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EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
On June 09 2008 11:25 ._. wrote: July's done all of this excellently before, and its been around for a long time. The most recent showing was a lost vs Bisu on blue storm where he almost caught the game but let his overaggressive tendency get a hold of him. Not new, even Savior's used this technique against fast expo and I bet Jae probably picked it up as well. Flash's build was genius in the sense that pretty much no one can emulate his wins on Katrina, although many have already tried to pick up with a trendy execution of its basic form. Kind of get the feeling Jaedong just made it something that went under the radar for a while and made it bigger for everyone else to notice, unfair to say that Jae started it all and was original for it. His recent ZvTs have also been in quite shaky form, lacking this adaptability you've spoken of, losing a few games to people he shouldn't. but as of late he's looked invincible ZvP because he focus heavily on will power and multitasking, a quality that is rewarded most in ZvP, instead of that old intuitive grasp he had with ZvT, where he made the flow of the game look easy. His ZvP originally sucked cause he had no feel for that matchup, but he has found cute little patterns to mask that disability to fit his own style of mechanical, standard play. But it still, pretty much feels like so many zergs out there to me, and discerning it as his own creativity is something I don't buy. Yeah I like the rare, anomalies from the other guys. It is an unfair way of looking at things, but pointing that out really isn't going to change anyone's sides on this opinion of this matter. Trend: Zerg players lose most of their games. Fact: Jaedong wins most of his games. Conclusion: Jaedong does not follow the trend of Zerg players losing most of their games. Zerg is the race that depends the most on game sense. It also happens to be the race for which macro and unit control are the most difficult. Calling Jaedong "boring" because he manages to have a lot of units, control them well, and have them in good positions at the right time is as stupid as calling Flash uninspired. The standardization of skill Wizard refers to benefits Protoss and Terran players far more than it does Zerg players. Nowadays, a mid-level Protoss or Terran with strong macro and passable micro will almost always beat a mid-level Zerg with strong macro and passable micro, simply because game sense is a crucial and fragile skill that most Zerg players can never develop, whose absence (the mark of a mid-level player) hurts Zerg far more than it does Protoss or Terran. A Zerg who beats a Protoss these days is typically one or two levels above his opponent and had to play perfectly while his opponent made unforced errors (see yesterday's game between Luxury vs. Lucifer). A Zerg who forces errors in ZvP, as Jaedong does, is creative by definition: he understands the flow between economy, army, timing, and location and can orchestrate this flow to his advantage while disrupting his that of his opponent's. Your statements about the matchup and Jaedong's style are uninformed and wrong. | ||
Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
On June 09 2008 13:34 EvoChamber wrote: Trend: Zerg players lose most of their games. Fact: Jaedong wins most of his games. Conclusion: Jaedong does not follow the trend of Zerg players losing most of their games. Zerg is the race that depends the most on game sense. It also happens to be the race for which macro and unit control are the most difficult. Calling Jaedong "boring" because he manages to have a lot of units, control them well, and have them in good positions at the right time is as stupid as calling Flash uninspired. The standardization of skill Wizard refers to benefits Protoss and Terran players far more than it does Zerg players. Nowadays, a mid-level Protoss or Terran with strong macro and passable micro will almost always beat a mid-level Zerg with strong macro and passable micro, simply because game sense is a crucial and fragile skill that most Zerg players can never develop, whose absence (the mark of a mid-level player) hurts Zerg far more than it does Protoss or Terran. A Zerg who beats a Protoss these days is typically one or two levels above his opponent and had to play perfectly while his opponent made unforced errors (see yesterday's game between Luxury vs. Lucifer). A Zerg who forces errors in ZvP, as Jaedong does, is creative by definition: he understands the flow between economy, army, timing, and location and can orchestrate this flow to his advantage while disrupting his that of his opponent's. Your statements about the matchup and Jaedong's style are uninformed and wrong. Great post. I was just trying to write one like it but you articulated it perfectly. Its within your full right to have the opinion that Jaedong is boring, but some of the "facts" you were stating are plain false, and there is an enormous amount of details in jaedongs play that show him to be far more than just the zerg with the best multitask. His games vs Bisu in particular are some of the most inspired ZvP i've seen since early-mid sAviOr. | ||
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iloveHieu
United States1919 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/377/badmirrorii6.jpg) hoping for eSTRO ^.^ | ||
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Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
Name a zerg player, other than Jaedong or Luxury, that is having any type of success right now. Oh wait, you can't. Somehow, in this era of zerg-death, JD and Lux are managing to stay alive. Is this pure chance? I doubt it. Anytime... well, he's fallen a lot since last season. But still, he was rather unique back in his day. You wouldn't say that Nada's boring, even though he follows others' trends nowadays. Same goes with Savior, Xellos, etc. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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1133 Posts
Calling Zerg the race with the most game sense the one with the most macro difficult and unit control difficult feels like a lot of bias to me. you are being as presumptuous as my initial statements were by concurring from your own opinion and perspective from your own view. If anything, his series vs Kal was by far the most "inspiring". Raw will and insane recovery from macroing and replacing his drones and unit count. His first game vs Bisu was incredible, as he won that game in a similar fashion. but 2nd-3rd was mostly the fault of Bisu. seriously, he made 2 citadels in one game and cluttered his buildings up together making it shit vs drops. Zerg has superior recon in the ZvP matchup, zerg can get away with denying protoss early game scouting and its near impossible to stop a 2 hatch all-in if the zerg's got all corners covered. Protoss FE follow up of course. If you seen his games in old replays and old vods you can clearly see his ZvP was quite weaker to his other matchups and its only been recently he's leveled his game sense in that match up. Causation does not always mean correlation with your analogy. Jae antes up his play with his mechanics while staying true to formulaic zerg play. He indeed plays like any pro zerg and there is nothing wrong with the trends of these poor "losing" zergs as they practice hours on end for optimal builds and timing, he executes these trends well enough by his own accord to get to where he is today. | ||
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1133 Posts
On June 09 2008 13:53 Sunyveil wrote: I can't believe all of the people calling Jaedong and Anytime "boring", "uninventive", etc. Name a zerg player, other than Jaedong or Luxury, that is having any type of success right now. Oh wait, you can't. Somehow, in this era of zerg-death, JD and Lux are managing to stay alive. Is this pure chance? I doubt it. Anytime... well, he's fallen a lot since last season. But still, he was rather unique back in his day. You wouldn't say that Nada's boring, even though he follows others' trends nowadays. Same goes with Savior, Xellos, etc. I feel there are many zerg players waiting for their chances and have not been able to see the starlight .I can name you quite a few zergs that I find amazing, it may be a while before we see them. Remember savior got denied osl x4 in prelims during his prime? wtf was that about? Was he not good enough? Same with Jae, absolutely dominating even his proleague games, but it took him awhile to break out. | ||
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Metallingus
Philippines468 Posts
On June 09 2008 07:46 Wizard wrote: if it goes to ace match it better be something good like Jaedong vs. UpMagic Jaedong v. Goodfriend would be better, UpMagic hasn't played well in like, forever. | ||
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