EPT[MBC vs CJ] Shinhan R2 Proleague Playoffs 08/01/19 - Page 78
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StripedBlueCrow
United States506 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 19 2008 22:46 mrdx wrote: How long have you been following progaming? In the last 3 years, have you ever seen any Terran making that mistake with 4 freaking rines at his ramp, so early in game and so important in an ace match (and most importantly when it matters most that your build is not discovered so soon)? It looks pretty obvious to me that DarkElf intentionally let Sea's SCV in. - To fool Sea to build an armory, or even to confuse Sea that he was just letting him in on purpose.. you can't just simply tell how the mental battle between the progamers went until they specifically say it, Wait for the interview, I think DE will say he did it intentionally. I totally agree with QibingZero - if it's Boxer everyone will know that it's his intention for sure  Ok listen. When an opponent is going 1 fact 1port YOU WANT A FUCKING ARMORY. There is no "fooling opponent into making an armory". He wants one. How do you expect to stop the wriaths without one? By slowly pumping rines out of 1 rax? Ya thatll work great! It's pretty obvious to me that both you and Qibing have no idea what you're talking about in this case. If you had any knowledge of TvT, and really bw in general at all, you would never say such a thing as "its pretty obvious to me DE let the scv in on purpose". The vod had several forms of evidence to the exact opposite. Even if it was Boxer, Mind, or any other terran; I, and anyone else with TvT knowledge would come to the same conclusion. The only ones who would think it was on purpose are mindless fanboys. And if you really must know, I've been at TL.net since the very beggining. I've played bw / sc since the game came out. And I've been a fan of progaming sense the days of X'Ds~Grrr...(period  ) PS. Actually I've seen players make that mistake more than once. It's fairly easy to do on a map with a very wide choke. The idea is to block the scout from seeing the natural base so you move your army off the ramp. Had Sea scouted that there was avery late cc against his fast cc it wouldve been essentially the same as scouting the main anyways. He would know an early semi allin style attack was comming. PSS. I am a huge nerd  lol (no this wasn't added in by mods, I proudly admit it). | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
The interview will not vindicate you because DE knows it was clearly an accident, so it wouldn't even work to use it as an excuse | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 20 2008 02:55 Aepplet wrote: I just rewatched that last game and realized DE didn't repair his tank, those 3 SCVs were all Sea's. I also noticed that Sea made and academy and researched goliath range, which indicates that he expected a more wraith focused strategy. Good eye on the no repair thing and the acad. I watched again as well. Seas micro was really bad. He didn't focus fire on tanks like he needed to. Sea didnt get goliath range though. And the acad was not really a factor because he got it after his second fact. He probably ancipated a 1 fact siege 1 port/cloak style attack, which was a very real possibility had the first attack not won flat out. So he didnt really over commit to stopping wraiths. He simply just did not play correctly against the first attack. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 20 2008 01:28 joeki wrote: Mind games as well as mistakes do exist. To judge what this was in DarkElfs case you have to know how DarkElf usually plays, sure, but it's MUCH more a question about knowing the game. Anyone who isn't DarkElf or an extremely good player and still believes he is 100 % sure of what was going on, greatly overvalues his knowledge. Ok I'm 99.5% sure(not that using %'s like this isn't bullshit anyways) Although I disagree that you need to really know that much in this situation. It was pretty clearly not intentional. You only have to be a pretty good TvT player to know that. | ||
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mrdx
Vietnam1555 Posts
you're right here, DE's admitted it.It's harder for me believe that hr actually made that mistake than doing it on purpose, but I guess I didn't really know that damn War3 n00b that well. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
clearly darkelf cheats. Having 15-1 doesnt lower the chances of getting another win, it raises them, since it shows that he is in GREAT shape. Although getting another 15-1 after that is very unlikely. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 20 2008 22:27 mrdx wrote: That's enough TheFoReveRwaR you're right here, DE's admitted it.It's harder for me believe that hr actually made that mistake than doing it on purpose, but I guess I didn't really know that damn War3 n00b that well. I already explained the mistake, and it really was a very understandable one given the nature of the map and the game. Not very clutch, but hey it worked out well. It wasn't about knowing the player, I couldve came to same conclusion having never seen darkelf play a single game or knowing anything about him. The main reason , as I stated many times, is there is no reason to ever let someone scout you going 1 fact/1 port in TvT You shouldn't make assumptions about people not being able to get into the minds of players when many people here most certainly can because we have an extensive background with bw. They don't even really need to know the players themselves, they simply know that progamers will try to make the best decesion to win and will use game knowledge to infer what decesions those are. And yes, that is enough...*deep breath* | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 20 2008 22:49 AnOth3rDAy wrote: darkelf DIDNT repair that tank with 3 scvs, at most it was 1 scv, and there was 1 tank 1 vult couple of marines and 4-5 scv on that tank and it didnt die. clearly darkelf cheats. Having 15-1 doesnt lower the chances of getting another win, it raises them, since it shows that he is in GREAT shape. Although getting another 15-1 after that is very unlikely. Clearly! Was probably a lastshadow version of python Actually it was because Sea did not focus fire immediately on the tank. He waited until some of his rines had died. But mainly he was just fucked by DE's excellent micro. DE targeted to completely negate the scv advantage so his 2 tanks did maximum damage. | ||
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cz
United States3249 Posts
On January 21 2008 00:21 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Clearly! Was probably a lastshadow version of python Actually it was because Sea did not focus fire immediately on the tank. He waited until some of his rines had died. But mainly he was just fucked by DE's excellent micro. DE targeted to completely negate the scv advantage so his 2 tanks did maximum damage. He wasn't even focus firing at the end, iirc the last shot Sea's final tank in the big battle at his expo choke shot was onto a marine. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 21 2008 00:34 cz wrote: He wasn't even focus firing at the end, iirc the last shot Sea's final tank in the big battle at his expo choke shot was onto a marine. Guess he was too busy trying to do something with scvs. Actually it sorta looked that way. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 21 2008 00:37 IntoTheWow wrote: Sea was getting goliath range. It's shown in the VOD You mean in the recap? Because I couldnt see it when I watched the game itself. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Aepplet
Sweden2908 Posts
On January 21 2008 00:38 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: You mean in the recap? Because I couldnt see it when I watched the game itself. yeah, when they show the replay afterwards. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Sea was very strategically greedy. Going with a CC first build --> he has an advantage. So instead of playing super solid he tries to one up his opponent by trying to gain an advantage over his NEXT move as well. Instead of just focusing on the current situation. Day's marginal advantage thread applies perfectly to what I'm talking about here. Sea is the kind of player who goes for the "big win". He displays spectacular micro/macro that eventually just rolls his opponent over. However he doesnt protect himself from a lot of strategic weaknesses like the champions do. Players like Savior/Mind/Bisu do just that. They will play builds that may not give them a direct macro advantage like Sea's do. However they won't put them at too much of a disadvantage either, and will be safe. They then rely on skill to just barely gain an edge over their opponent throughout the game unless their opponent makes a mistake, in which they dominate. This is of course a huge oversimplification because starcraft has a lot of other factors and no player plays the same every game. But its just a general pattern I noticed. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
On January 21 2008 00:38 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: You mean in the recap? Because I couldnt see it when I watched the game itself. Yes in the playback | ||
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joeki
Sweden292 Posts
On January 20 2008 22:05 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: You only have to be a pretty good TvT player to know that. Ok pretty good instead of very good then. My point was that it is a question about knowing the game and not about who has watched the most vods. I thought it was a mistake too, but I also realized the move could actually help him and since DarkElf himself said it DID help him it is pretty clear evidence that the move could be done on purpose even if it takes a genious, very specific circumstances and luck to do gain anything from it. But the possibilty is still there and that's why I think it's stupid to talk to everyone like their are idiots and clueless just because they mention the facts - the move did help him i.e. the move could be done on purpose. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 21 2008 01:26 joeki wrote: Ok pretty good instead of very good then. My point was that it is a question about knowing the game and not about who has watched the most vods. I thought it was a mistake too, but I also realized the move could actually help him and since DarkElf himself said it DID help him it is pretty clear evidence that the move could be done on purpose even if it takes a genious, very specific circumstances and luck to do gain anything from it. But the possibilty is still there and that's why I think it's stupid to talk to everyone like their are idiots and clueless just because they mention the facts - the move did help him i.e. the could be done on purpose. Ya but it helped him only because Sea made mistakes and he won Blocking Sea from scouting completely(ie keeping him from seeing if DE expoed or not) would have also helped him. Basically, it helped him because he lucked out that Sea reacted the way he did. Sea could have very easily had seen what he saw and reacted perfectly in which case it would have cost him the game. BTW where is this interview information? I'm thinking Sea thought DE was going a 1 port cloak harass + small attack with intial army into expo + quick second expo at his island with a dropship after his first 2 wriaths while laying down a cc (dropship after cc is started). This would be a pretty strong build and I think Sea, again always playing for the big win/strong macro game advantage, wanted to make sure he was in the best possible position. Neglecting safety early on | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
As I said before the final, MBC should have used Light instead of Hyun. The result might have been the same, but Much would have been a less favorite against Light than vs Hyun. Congrats to CJ, I think their chances are good in the final. Comes down to Lecafs 2v2 perfomance and of course AT&JD. EDIT: Saw game 7 again, and Sea wasnt microing good enough in that fight, while DE targeted properly. He still got outBOed, or outBOed himself if you might, and not outplayed imo. | ||
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