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[MBC vs CJ] Shinhan R2 Proleague Playoffs 08/01/19 - Page 78

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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StripedBlueCrow
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States506 Posts
January 20 2008 09:44 GMT
#1541
Can we get the full post-games translations please?
Ransom notes keep falling out your mouth.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-20 13:03:21
January 20 2008 12:33 GMT
#1542
On January 19 2008 22:46 mrdx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2008 18:57 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
On January 19 2008 18:38 QibingZero wrote:
On January 19 2008 18:24 Saracen wrote:
On January 19 2008 18:22 The Storyteller wrote:
On January 19 2008 18:17 Aillusion wrote:
On January 19 2008 18:16 The Storyteller wrote:
Wait... why is this because Sea choked? I know he scouted the starport, but surely he would have expected some wraith harrass into expo for Darkelf, right? Who the hell does a tank/marine/wraith all in in an ace match? It doesn't sound like he played badly at all.


its not just the starport sea scouted, Before DE pushed, Sea even scounted DE's rax in middle pumping rines, and he didnt do anythin, choke?


It was a completely unorthodox build. That's not choking, that's natural.

On a different note... I wonder about three things:

1. Why DE scouted cross position first
2. Why DE let the SCV into his base (was it deliberate or did he just not care anymore by that point?)
3. Did DE change his mind about wrath harrass or did he have this planned from the start?

Watching the replay, his troop positioning for the all in was beautiful.

DE let scv in to scout port so sea would build armory and delay siege? o.O



That would solve nearly every question we have about this game, actually. It did seem like he let the SCV in.

So DE lets the scout into his base so Sea worries more about the wraiths than anything. Meanwhile, he's actually going fast siege and not an abundance of wraiths, or cloak or anything. Sea commits to a battle he thought he could win, but once he realizes DE has siege, it's already too late?

People aren't going to want to believe he intentionally let the scout in though (and he may not have, of course), if only because he's not considered a top tier player. If boxer happened to do it, we'd see it on PP2008 without a doubt. =P

But still, a timing push like that, with siege, and in an extremely important all-or-nothing game? I'm even more surprised now after analyzing all this.

Under no circumstance would it make sense to let your opponent scout you going 1 fact 1 port. NONE. Stop posting this crap Sea knew that darkelf was going fast siege with 1 port harass because its an excellent counter to fast expand. 1 fact into 2 port is total shit vs cc first builds.

Sea knew that DE had siege before he commited to the attack. He just didnt anticipate DE's excellent targeting with tanks + wriaths while repairing the tank that sea was targeting immediately with 3 scvs.

If boxer let the scv in we'd say, "Wtf boxer way to not stop an scv you should've stopped" because this is the only logical reaction. DE did not let the scv in on purpose because it MAKES NO SENSE TO DO SO. He may not have particularly cared about stopping it however, but thats a different story.

How long have you been following progaming? In the last 3 years, have you ever seen any Terran making that mistake with 4 freaking rines at his ramp, so early in game and so important in an ace match (and most importantly when it matters most that your build is not discovered so soon)?

It looks pretty obvious to me that DarkElf intentionally let Sea's SCV in. - To fool Sea to build an armory, or even to confuse Sea that he was just letting him in on purpose.. you can't just simply tell how the mental battle between the progamers went until they specifically say it,
Wait for the interview, I think DE will say he did it intentionally.

I totally agree with QibingZero - if it's Boxer everyone will know that it's his intention for sure

Ok listen. When an opponent is going 1 fact 1port YOU WANT A FUCKING ARMORY. There is no "fooling opponent into making an armory". He wants one. How do you expect to stop the wriaths without one? By slowly pumping rines out of 1 rax? Ya thatll work great!
It's pretty obvious to me that both you and Qibing have no idea what you're talking about in this case.

If you had any knowledge of TvT, and really bw in general at all, you would never say such a thing as "its pretty obvious to me DE let the scv in on purpose". The vod had several forms of evidence to the exact opposite. Even if it was Boxer, Mind, or any other terran; I, and anyone else with TvT knowledge would come to the same conclusion. The only ones who would think it was on purpose are mindless fanboys. And if you really must know, I've been at TL.net since the very beggining. I've played bw / sc since the game came out. And I've been a fan of progaming sense the days of X'Ds~Grrr...(period )

PS. Actually I've seen players make that mistake more than once. It's fairly easy to do on a map with a very wide choke. The idea is to block the scout from seeing the natural base so you move your army off the ramp. Had Sea scouted that there was avery late cc against his fast cc it wouldve been essentially the same as scouting the main anyways. He would know an early semi allin style attack was comming.

PSS. I am a huge nerd lol (no this wasn't added in by mods, I proudly admit it).
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-20 15:22:48
January 20 2008 12:43 GMT
#1543
Ok I just watched the vod again. DarkElf 100% DID NOT FUCKING LET THE SCV IN ON PURPOSE. He did not know that sea had even sent an scv to his nat area and had no idea that it was waiting above near his base. He moved his marines down the ramp in order to try and hide if he was going fast expand or not(by blocking further scouts from reaching his nat). He wanted to FURTHER HIDE HIS BUILD even more, not give it away on purpose. The reason DE didnt think an scv would be there is because Sea had scouted with his marine and DE had fired upon it. Anyone with TvT knowledge could tell you this. Like I said, there is NO REASON to let someone see you going 1 fact siege/port. It's like letting a toss see you going mnm on purpose. It makes no sense.

The interview will not vindicate you because DE knows it was clearly an accident, so it wouldn't even work to use it as an excuse
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-20 13:08:45
January 20 2008 12:58 GMT
#1544
On January 20 2008 02:55 Aepplet wrote:
I just rewatched that last game and realized DE didn't repair his tank, those 3 SCVs were all Sea's. I also noticed that Sea made and academy and researched goliath range, which indicates that he expected a more wraith focused strategy.

Good eye on the no repair thing and the acad. I watched again as well. Seas micro was really bad. He didn't focus fire on tanks like he needed to. Sea didnt get goliath range though. And the acad was not really a factor because he got it after his second fact. He probably ancipated a 1 fact siege 1 port/cloak style attack, which was a very real possibility had the first attack not won flat out. So he didnt really over commit to stopping wraiths. He simply just did not play correctly against the first attack.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-20 13:06:26
January 20 2008 13:05 GMT
#1545
On January 20 2008 01:28 joeki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2008 00:44 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
How long have YOU been following progaming? I agree with theforeverwar and you obviously don't know DarkElf very well if you think he can't make that mistake


Mind games as well as mistakes do exist. To judge what this was in DarkElfs case you have to know how DarkElf usually plays, sure, but it's MUCH more a question about knowing the game.

Anyone who isn't DarkElf or an extremely good player and still believes he is 100 % sure of what was going on, greatly overvalues his knowledge.

Ok I'm 99.5% sure(not that using %'s like this isn't bullshit anyways) Although I disagree that you need to really know that much in this situation. It was pretty clearly not intentional. You only have to be a pretty good TvT player to know that.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
mrdx
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Vietnam1555 Posts
January 20 2008 13:27 GMT
#1546
That's enough TheFoReveRwaR you're right here, DE's admitted it.
It's harder for me believe that hr actually made that mistake than doing it on purpose, but I guess I didn't really know that damn War3 n00b that well.
BoxerForever.com - the one and only international Boxer fansite since 2006 :)
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-20 13:50:27
January 20 2008 13:49 GMT
#1547
darkelf DIDNT repair that tank with 3 scvs, at most it was 1 scv, and there was 1 tank 1 vult couple of marines and 4-5 scv on that tank and it didnt die.

clearly darkelf cheats.


Having 15-1 doesnt lower the chances of getting another win, it raises them, since it shows that he is in GREAT shape.

Although getting another 15-1 after that is very unlikely.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-20 15:19:46
January 20 2008 15:19 GMT
#1548
On January 20 2008 22:27 mrdx wrote:
That's enough TheFoReveRwaR you're right here, DE's admitted it.
It's harder for me believe that hr actually made that mistake than doing it on purpose, but I guess I didn't really know that damn War3 n00b that well.

I already explained the mistake, and it really was a very understandable one given the nature of the map and the game. Not very clutch, but hey it worked out well.

It wasn't about knowing the player, I couldve came to same conclusion having never seen darkelf play a single game or knowing anything about him. The main reason , as I stated many times, is there is no reason to ever let someone scout you going 1 fact/1 port in TvT

You shouldn't make assumptions about people not being able to get into the minds of players when many people here most certainly can because we have an extensive background with bw. They don't even really need to know the players themselves, they simply know that progamers will try to make the best decesion to win and will use game knowledge to infer what decesions those are.

And yes, that is enough...*deep breath*
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
January 20 2008 15:21 GMT
#1549
On January 20 2008 22:49 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
darkelf DIDNT repair that tank with 3 scvs, at most it was 1 scv, and there was 1 tank 1 vult couple of marines and 4-5 scv on that tank and it didnt die.

clearly darkelf cheats.


Having 15-1 doesnt lower the chances of getting another win, it raises them, since it shows that he is in GREAT shape.

Although getting another 15-1 after that is very unlikely.

Clearly! Was probably a lastshadow version of python

Actually it was because Sea did not focus fire immediately on the tank. He waited until some of his rines had died. But mainly he was just fucked by DE's excellent micro. DE targeted to completely negate the scv advantage so his 2 tanks did maximum damage.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
January 20 2008 15:34 GMT
#1550
On January 21 2008 00:21 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2008 22:49 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
darkelf DIDNT repair that tank with 3 scvs, at most it was 1 scv, and there was 1 tank 1 vult couple of marines and 4-5 scv on that tank and it didnt die.

clearly darkelf cheats.


Having 15-1 doesnt lower the chances of getting another win, it raises them, since it shows that he is in GREAT shape.

Although getting another 15-1 after that is very unlikely.

Clearly! Was probably a lastshadow version of python

Actually it was because Sea did not focus fire immediately on the tank. He waited until some of his rines had died. But mainly he was just fucked by DE's excellent micro. DE targeted to completely negate the scv advantage so his 2 tanks did maximum damage.


He wasn't even focus firing at the end, iirc the last shot Sea's final tank in the big battle at his expo choke shot was onto a marine.
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32277 Posts
January 20 2008 15:37 GMT
#1551
Sea was getting goliath range. It's shown in the VOD
Moderator<:3-/-<
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
January 20 2008 15:37 GMT
#1552
On January 21 2008 00:34 cz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2008 00:21 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
On January 20 2008 22:49 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
darkelf DIDNT repair that tank with 3 scvs, at most it was 1 scv, and there was 1 tank 1 vult couple of marines and 4-5 scv on that tank and it didnt die.

clearly darkelf cheats.


Having 15-1 doesnt lower the chances of getting another win, it raises them, since it shows that he is in GREAT shape.

Although getting another 15-1 after that is very unlikely.

Clearly! Was probably a lastshadow version of python

Actually it was because Sea did not focus fire immediately on the tank. He waited until some of his rines had died. But mainly he was just fucked by DE's excellent micro. DE targeted to completely negate the scv advantage so his 2 tanks did maximum damage.


He wasn't even focus firing at the end, iirc the last shot Sea's final tank in the big battle at his expo choke shot was onto a marine.

Guess he was too busy trying to do something with scvs. Actually it sorta looked that way.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
January 20 2008 15:38 GMT
#1553
On January 21 2008 00:37 IntoTheWow wrote:
Sea was getting goliath range. It's shown in the VOD

You mean in the recap? Because I couldnt see it when I watched the game itself.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
January 20 2008 15:41 GMT
#1554
If he was thats pretty bad=/ Means Sea was way too overconfident and started preparing for early midgame before even making sure he was safe in the early game. Big strategical error.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
Aepplet
Profile Joined December 2003
Sweden2908 Posts
January 20 2008 15:43 GMT
#1555
On January 21 2008 00:38 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2008 00:37 IntoTheWow wrote:
Sea was getting goliath range. It's shown in the VOD

You mean in the recap? Because I couldnt see it when I watched the game itself.

yeah, when they show the replay afterwards.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-20 16:11:29
January 20 2008 16:06 GMT
#1556
Aha, and this is why Sea doesnt win starleagues, he doesnt have the brilliant starcraft mind necessary to ALWAYS (well almost always) make the correct decesions, even when he scouts what his opponent is doing(sure if you aren't able to scout, that's differnt). So despite being an amazing technical player, he allows himself strategic holes that ultimately stop in him the long run.

Sea was very strategically greedy. Going with a CC first build --> he has an advantage. So instead of playing super solid he tries to one up his opponent by trying to gain an advantage over his NEXT move as well. Instead of just focusing on the current situation.

Day's marginal advantage thread applies perfectly to what I'm talking about here. Sea is the kind of player who goes for the "big win". He displays spectacular micro/macro that eventually just rolls his opponent over. However he doesnt protect himself from a lot of strategic weaknesses like the champions do. Players like Savior/Mind/Bisu do just that. They will play builds that may not give them a direct macro advantage like Sea's do. However they won't put them at too much of a disadvantage either, and will be safe. They then rely on skill to just barely gain an edge over their opponent throughout the game unless their opponent makes a mistake, in which they dominate.

This is of course a huge oversimplification because starcraft has a lot of other factors and no player plays the same every game. But its just a general pattern I noticed.

Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32277 Posts
January 20 2008 16:13 GMT
#1557
On January 21 2008 00:38 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2008 00:37 IntoTheWow wrote:
Sea was getting goliath range. It's shown in the VOD

You mean in the recap? Because I couldnt see it when I watched the game itself.


Yes in the playback
Moderator<:3-/-<
joeki
Profile Joined June 2004
Sweden292 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-21 08:37:57
January 20 2008 16:26 GMT
#1558
On January 20 2008 22:05 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
You only have to be a pretty good TvT player to know that.


Ok pretty good instead of very good then. My point was that it is a question about knowing the game and not about who has watched the most vods.

I thought it was a mistake too, but I also realized the move could actually help him and since DarkElf himself said it DID help him it is pretty clear evidence that the move could be done on purpose even if it takes a genious, very specific circumstances and luck to do gain anything from it. But the possibilty is still there and that's why I think it's stupid to talk to everyone like their are idiots and clueless just because they mention the facts - the move did help him i.e. the move could be done on purpose.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-20 16:41:23
January 20 2008 16:29 GMT
#1559
On January 21 2008 01:26 joeki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2008 22:05 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
You only have to be a pretty good TvT player to know that.


Ok pretty good instead of very good then. My point was that it is a question about knowing the game and not about who has watched the most vods.

I thought it was a mistake too, but I also realized the move could actually help him and since DarkElf himself said it DID help him it is pretty clear evidence that the move could be done on purpose even if it takes a genious, very specific circumstances and luck to do gain anything from it. But the possibilty is still there and that's why I think it's stupid to talk to everyone like their are idiots and clueless just because they mention the facts - the move did help him i.e. the could be done on purpose.

Ya but it helped him only because Sea made mistakes and he won Blocking Sea from scouting completely(ie keeping him from seeing if DE expoed or not) would have also helped him. Basically, it helped him because he lucked out that Sea reacted the way he did. Sea could have very easily had seen what he saw and reacted perfectly in which case it would have cost him the game.

BTW where is this interview information?


I'm thinking Sea thought DE was going a 1 port cloak harass + small attack with intial army into expo + quick second expo at his island with a dropship after his first 2 wriaths while laying down a cc (dropship after cc is started). This would be a pretty strong build and I think Sea, again always playing for the big win/strong macro game advantage, wanted to make sure he was in the best possible position. Neglecting safety early on
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
Guybrush
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
Spain4744 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-20 18:48:15
January 20 2008 17:59 GMT
#1560
Im disregarding the 2v2s in my review as I never watch them. Overall bad games, and I dont think CJ proved anything in their 1v1 wins. Apart from game 2 and 7 the favorites won. Kwanros sunken trick was cute, but Pusan is still superior, he just happens to be a god damn choker every time hes under pressure. He didnt have to move out like he did, as Kwanro was clearly allining. And dont get me started on game 7. Ridiculous BO when you know you're the better player, and wtf didnt that tank die to 5 scvs ?

As I said before the final, MBC should have used Light instead of Hyun. The result might have been the same, but Much would have been a less favorite against Light than vs Hyun.

Congrats to CJ, I think their chances are good in the final. Comes down to Lecafs 2v2 perfomance and of course AT&JD.

EDIT: Saw game 7 again, and Sea wasnt microing good enough in that fight, while DE targeted properly. He still got outBOed, or outBOed himself if you might, and not outplayed imo.
Live2Win is awesome. Happy new year scarabi!
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