EPT[ASL19] Semifinal B - Page 21
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sas.Sziky
Hungary339 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3473 Posts
On May 15 2025 17:14 XenOsky wrote: is there really a protoss player that actually thought that snow had a chance to win the series? he was gonna lose anyway due to the nature of the match up ... 4-3 or 5-1 doest matter, bo5+++ vs zerg at equal skill, , protoss is never winning... bo1 mb bo3 mb bo5 nope bo7 rofl gtfo But Snow went up 3-2 so if it was bo5 with the same set of 5 maps, he would’ve won? | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2358 Posts
On May 15 2025 17:25 vndestiny wrote: But Snow went up 3-2 so if it was bo5 with the same set of 5 maps, he would’ve won? results oriented... z is in a favorable position in bo5 or bo7, if this series was bo5 maps order wouldave changed and soulkey prolly wins in some other fashion... the timeline changes completly from start to finish if bo5 instead of bo7, i belive that in any case SK wins, if not, that result is a fluke, like bisu was...+ Show Spoiler + like winning KK vs AA or like fliping a coin and having 10 tails in a row... or like fucking winning a bo7 vs zerg as protoss in a major bw tournament... also if bo5 less room for mistakes for z, so less likely to choose super aggro gambly shit, style that btw gives toss a fighting chance if defence is on point... SK is prolly bonjwa right now, so he deserves to win everything, but that doest change the fact that z>p so hard that makes the match up not even fun to watch or play... + Show Spoiler + season after season i just know that THE BEST PROTOSS is going to lose vs zerg deep in the tournament... i just dont know HOW is going to happen... ..fuck, im sick of that narrative, boring as fuck, is like knowing that the home team in futbol will always win deep in a CUP, you just dont know the score... patch the fucking match up already and let us move on to a really competitive state of pvz where the BEST PROTOSS OF THE WORLD has a chance to win vs zerg in long series... u dont even have to touch the other matchs , just give some + armer vs hidra, or gasless detection, idk man, just do something cause i remember toss lossing to zerg like this since like JulyZerg prime... lil too long imo | ||
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TMNT
3404 Posts
On May 15 2025 15:45 G5 wrote: SoulKey sacrificed eco early, SnOw held, SoulKey then turned it into legitimately a semi-island map (Protoss is the best race in these scenarios by the way) and SoulKey outplayed SnOw from there. SoulKey also did have to defend the right side of the map a bit and did so well. As I said, SnOw deserved the loss. He was in a fine position and misplayed it. You can have your opinion and I respect it but that is mine. I feel like you being stuck in the mindset of "Protoss tends to do well on island maps" makes you misread the game state at that point. Firstly (like Bonyth said), only Snow had to play the semi island map. Soulkey just had a normal map with two entrances and two lanes, sort of like Monty Hall. Secondly, the concept of Protoss doing well on island map, be it true or not, can't be simply over-generalized to any map with island features. It's only true when both players have to start on an island with only 1 base. Other than that you have to look at it case by case, matchup by matchup. For example : - Neo Arkanoid: it's a semi island map which later can be turned into a (sort of) normal map, but you start with 3 bases in your quadrant, so it's no issue for Z. In fact this map is a free win for Z if they go Hydra bust because Protoss can't defend 3 entrances at the same time. - 76: it's no issue for Zerg because small units can fit through the ramp - Monty Hall: this map is a massive graveyard for P in PvZ because the semi island feature on this map denies the potential pressure for Protoss in early game, allowing Zerg to freely drone up. All those 3 maps are massively Zerg favored. Now back to Death Valley, Soulkey essentially turned it into Monty Hall with 2 lanes for him BUT Snow could only play on 1 lane. It's true that Soulkey had to defend the right side "a bit" but it is the easiest defence for Z since P can only slip 1 zealot through at a time with a terrible success rate, and in some cases the probe slips through as well, effectively donating it to Z. Snow attempt to glitch zealots out probably did him more harm than good actually. So, droning up nonstop and free 3 bases which will never be threatened. What more could Zerg as for in ZvP lol? | ||
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TMNT
3404 Posts
Interesting that Best also picked Death Valley for the finals, so he must have some plan maybe. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On May 15 2025 15:31 vndestiny wrote: Did they mention why thus far? I’m noticing less/none late game econ storm drop in v Z too, but haven’t put much thought into it. I don't know. If I had to guess it's because shuttles are too slow, and the speed upgrade requires additional resources and time. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2358 Posts
On May 15 2025 18:28 Magic Powers wrote: I don't know. If I had to guess it's because shuttles are too slow, and the speed upgrade requires additional resources and time. have you ever played a pvz so intense that in your mind you are thinking "i need to kill some drones, i need to drop" but you just cant find the time/resources to do it? i guess that situation comes up a lot in a semi finals of ASL... | ||
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Sabu113
United States11112 Posts
Bleh. He just played some insanity though SK’s macro is wild. Map makers need to do some work for pvz though. Feels so rough in big box Edit Snow probably put up the best straight play pvz we’ll see. Handled going late better than I have ever seen toss tbh. Mostly when it goes super late they get ground down. Mini is still the god of the matchup for toss. Frustrating because snow was just beautiful today. | ||
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TMNT
3404 Posts
On May 15 2025 17:14 XenOsky wrote: is there really a protoss player that actually thought that snow had a chance to win the series? he was gonna lose anyway due to the nature of the match up ... 4-3 or 5-1 doest matter, bo5+++ vs zerg at equal skill, , protoss is never winning... bo1 mb bo3 mb bo5 nope bo7 rofl gtfo See I'm also a "PvZ whiner" but P can beat Z and Snow can beat Soulkey in a Bo5/7/9, as he actually did a few times in online series vs Soulkey this year. In fact, the last game had he not gone full Mini and just played it out normally, or tried something like a blind 12 Nexus (would have worked, since Soulkey wasn't doing 9 pool and it was cross spawn), he would have a good chance to win. And although I'm a "PvZ whiner", my complaints have never been result-based, but always gameplay-based. Actually the game that I have the most issue with (regarding balance) in this series is the game that Snow won on Dominator. It's just absurd that Zerg with 7 drones at 9th minutes, and 1 base less than Protoss in the late game, can almost beat the shit out of the P. If not for Zeratul single-handedly killing whole mineral line, Snow would have lost. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1328 Posts
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TMNT
3404 Posts
So Soulkey did gamble here and now that I think of it, there's no way Snow and JD during their practice wouldn't think about that, but they probably thought Soulkey wouldn't make that gamble. So mind game vs mind game here. | ||
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QRCode
United States62 Posts
On May 15 2025 18:28 Magic Powers wrote: I don't know. If I had to guess it's because shuttles are too slow, and the speed upgrade requires additional resources and time. It's hard to get two lines of tech running on 2 bases when you have to commit basically everything you have in keeping up a constant offense. Then having to manage multiple attacks, it's too much for some pros I think. In some situations it supplements an attack greatly and I think those are the best moments. Raw storm drops are too risky, and you win by being consistent. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia983 Posts
Letting lings into main is not a guarantee. It is entirely possible to start a cannon earlier, and pull probes from main and block at natural. What made it tricky was the drone block...even if the probe got in, it was late, so by that time even cannon in main resulted in some losses. Now, Snow could also get a cannon when seeing blocked passage and be completely safe...but SK had a game in ASL previously(if I am not misremembering players) where he blocked a ramp with a drone on a map with a backdoor expansion, and went for 3 hatch before pool, while the opponent blindly got cannons. So there was a mindgame component to it. But maybe there is a world where Snow starts a blind cannon when blocked on ramp, with intention to maybe cancel it after glitching the probe in, or smth like that. That being said, yeah, these maps are ass. | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada137 Posts
Dude has the second highest PvZ winrate in ASL iirc | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
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TMNT
3404 Posts
On May 16 2025 05:03 Soulforged wrote: Regarding 4/5 pool, it isn't _that_ much of an auto win on that map vs forge. Letting lings into main is not a guarantee. It is entirely possible to start a cannon earlier, and pull probes from main and block at natural. What made it tricky was the drone block...even if the probe got in, it was late, so by that time even cannon in main resulted in some losses. Now, Snow could also get a cannon when seeing blocked passage and be completely safe...but SK had a game in ASL previously(if I am not misremembering players) where he blocked a ramp with a drone on a map with a backdoor expansion, and went for 3 hatch before pool, while the opponent blindly got cannons. So there was a mindgame component to it. But maybe there is a world where Snow starts a blind cannon when blocked on ramp, with intention to maybe cancel it after glitching the probe in, or smth like that. That being said, yeah, these maps are ass. Bro, you might want to recheck the timings related to 4/5 Pool. By the time the probe got in Soulkey's base, which it wasn't supposed to anyway, the Forge hadn't even started. Can't get a blind cannon if you don't have a forge. Cannon in main is like the Bible response to 5 Pool vs FFE. The response you described just doesn't exist in BW, at least at their level. I guess the reason is (a) you can't block 6 lings with just probes and no area to drill, (b) the lings can just run to the main and you'll have a cannon at natural while tying gg. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2358 Posts
history is with me in this one... mb snow can beat sk in some online not so huge event. but hes most likely lossing in the biggest stage where preparation and mindgames play a much bigger role. | ||
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Comedy
484 Posts
On May 15 2025 18:48 Sabu113 wrote: Snow did his fans so proud Bleh. He just played some insanity though SK’s macro is wild. Map makers need to do some work for pvz though. Feels so rough in big box Edit Snow probably put up the best straight play pvz we’ll see. Handled going late better than I have ever seen toss tbh. Mostly when it goes super late they get ground down. Mini is still the god of the matchup for toss. Frustrating because snow was just beautiful today. snow completely fumbled game 1 and would have won the series if he didn't fuck up his wall. he also played vs 9 hatch 9 pool which is a direct counter to 2 gate. and still won the game. the only reason snow loses is that he is so much weaker at performing under pressure than soulkey. not cause of maps. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria387 Posts
Also, Hydra good unit. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia983 Posts
Bro, you might want to recheck the timings related to 4/5 Pool. By the time the probe got in Soulkey's base, which it wasn't supposed to anyway, the Forge hadn't even started. Can't get a blind cannon if you don't have a forge. An actual 150 mineral available non probe cut forge, is going to roll 4/5 pool with cannon being done before the lings even reach there. Now, nobody does that unless they face someone they know 5 pool a lot, but it is in realm of possibility. There's many reasons why P's delay the forge start, this has more to do with checking 1st scouting location main first before committing to send a 2nd probe to the natural, or double probe scout timing alignment(with 2nd probe scout starting forge and then reaching last location's natural at 1:55 to block overpool hatch placement). Not all of those reasons apply to 2 player maps, and mostly delay is for greed purposes / as late as you can make it and still live vs 9pool. Precisely because on a standard map a main cannon can still deal with 5pool. And 5 pool is very rare, so P's default on the as greedy as they can get away vs 9pool forge timing. TLDR, if there is a probe ready to start forge the second that a scout sees a blocked ramp(nevermind having 150), the option to never let the lings into main is very much exists. Snow starts forge with 250 minerals at 12/17(likely with a probe queued on top of that). That's the "defend 9 pool" forge timing. Forge is possible with no probe cuts at 10/17(that'd be the timing of "cannon is done when 5pool lings get there). There's good 20 seconds between these two extremes. A middle ground exists, where a probe pull to block natural with probe losses can still secure the nat. Snow starts to send probe to natural, with his 10th probe once it finished(so 11/17 it starts to move to nat); he sees the blocked ramp about same time...that is the standard timing. If he recognized that you cannot let 5 pool in your main on this map with a forge opener, and sent a probe there one probe round earlier, he'd: - lose out on something like 16-24 minerals vs overpool/hatch first if there is no ramp block. With ramp block, may have to start forge blindly. - have no difference vs 9 pool(start forge/go back to mining, sooner or later doesn't matter), - ez win vs 5 pool. Hope I got my point across this time. I'm mostly responding to statements that a forge opener on this map is an auto loss. This type of map design can force P to make extra early game concessions which are ass, but auto loss they are not. It is, however, on Snow that he didn't consider risks of standard delayed forge timings vs 5 pool on that map. | ||
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