|
Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 1?No (12) 71% Yes (4) 24% If you have time (1) 6% 17 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 2?Yes (17) 89% If you have time (2) 11% No (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 3?Yes (41) 100% No (0) 0% If you have time (0) 0% 41 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 3? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 4?Yes (27) 96% No (1) 4% 28 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 4? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
I fat fingered it, no 3rd option and don't want to remake. Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 5?Yes (21) 100% No (0) 0% If you have time (0) 0% 21 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 5? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 6?If you have time (8) 42% Yes (6) 32% No (5) 26% 19 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 6? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 7?No (11) 42% If you have time (9) 35% Yes (6) 23% 26 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 7? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
|
I really don't think it has anything to do with multitask, especially when they're still storm dropping all the time in PvT.
Probably more to do with optimisation these days. Like in every PvZ now I hear people screaming about making a Dark Archon as if it never occurs to the players who are 100x better than them. It's just not optimised.
If anything players these days are doing more, not less. Ten years ago PvT was all about making Arbiters and running around with the 1a2a3a army. Now you have to do Shuttle Reaver micro and handle multiple Shuttles with HTs in the late game. The latter style is obviously more mechanically demanding. Ironically it is only Bisu who can't play that style effectively out of all the current Protosses.
|
Until about five years ago I would've agreed that players aren't as fast anymore, but nowadays they're all over the place. It's hard to keep up with them in first person vods.
|
no one is multitasking in pvz because nobody is capable of it right now. bisu can't do it anymore, mini/snow/best lol can't. your toolset to tackle pvz will always be limited and no amount of optimalsation can resolve that. so enjoy the peak strats of just busting out cheeses and/or playing sparkle maps. tho u only have to do that against soon to be 4 peat soulkey, today snow would have won a boX against action/jd/hero anyway with just solid play.
|
On May 14 2025 22:21 Magic Powers wrote:
Until about five years ago I would've agreed that players aren't as fast anymore, but nowadays they're all over the place. It's hard to keep up with them in first person vods.
i disagree bisu fpv is more ridiculous in the past. just his decision making is sus sometimes.
|
On May 14 2025 22:25 ggsimida wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2025 22:21 Magic Powers wrote:
Until about five years ago I would've agreed that players aren't as fast anymore, but nowadays they're all over the place. It's hard to keep up with them in first person vods. i disagree bisu fpv is more ridiculous in the past. just his decision making is sus sometimes.
Ive tracked player speed and everyone is faster with apm and eapm. but you can argue more apm and eapm can eat mental bandwidth and cause players have worse multitasking. soulkey specifically plays a bit slower with apm in order to have more oversight!
|
On May 14 2025 22:28 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2025 22:25 ggsimida wrote:On May 14 2025 22:21 Magic Powers wrote:
Until about five years ago I would've agreed that players aren't as fast anymore, but nowadays they're all over the place. It's hard to keep up with them in first person vods. i disagree bisu fpv is more ridiculous in the past. just his decision making is sus sometimes. Ive tracked player speed and everyone is faster with apm and eapm. but you can argue more apm and eapm can eat mental bandwidth and cause players have worse multitasking. soulkey specifically plays a bit slower with apm in order to have more oversight!
im only talking about bisu not others..yes multitasking isnt just apm is that not obvious already. or do you think we like to watch a 500 apm B rank player?
|
I think modern use and implementation of mutas in ZvP gives less opportunities for storm drops to make sense as part of the go-to toolkit.
|
On May 14 2025 22:36 Smorrie wrote:
I think modern use and implementation of mutas in ZvP gives less opportunities for storm drops to make sense as part of the go-to toolkit.
of course mutas are OP when u have dohsairs on the other side. every protoss is dohsair-ing them nowadays
why is old school bisu is so revered to begin with hmmm do u protect your corsairs?
|
On May 14 2025 17:48 namkraft wrote:
Just imagine you don't have Death Valley in the map pool. It's a free win for zerg.
I'm thinking the only way to play on this map as protoss is to go 1 gate (in your main) & no gas, then blindly expand into the base behind the 3 minerals. If Zerg tries early zergling aggression, Protoss can try to block the 2 extractor door with 1/2 zealots and some probes. Then eventually seal himself in.
With the gate shut, Protoss is not in a bad position if he can survive until the late game. The secret I think is to expand towards the left lane and use reavers. U see the left lane has more bases than the right lane. To win late game, Soulkey needs to take some of the left lane bases and that will put him in direct conflict with Snow's closely knitted armies and bases. For a defensive posture, Snow should add some reavers and not just HT. If Soulkey tries to take a hatchery on the left lane, Snow's job is just to shut it down then retreat to his bases, covered with reavers and HTs.
In this specific set up, Zerg doesn't enjoy the mobility that he often enjoys in late-game on a normal map (like a 4-player map). Their late game advantage of defilers is better countered with reavers than HT. Snow's natural at 1 o clock can be taken by Zerg, but realistically speaking he can never mine it with dragoons and HTs on the high ground.
With even number of bases between P & Z, Zerg will eventually tap out.
I also support this. Ts and Zs often get maps that are really favoring them, while I can't remember when was the last time it happened for Protoss. Usually island/semi islands are like that for Protoss, but the race doesn't deserve such luxury I guess.
|
On May 14 2025 14:56 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2025 06:52 Miragee wrote:
This is not true. You forgot the game where Snow went center 9/9 gate, didn't kill a single drone and transitioned out of it. Also, in the game with the 5 pool, Soulkey killed enough probes to have an almost even worker count (Snow was 2 ahead or so maybe). Of course you can transition out of that if you do that much damage You are totally wrong on this point. In fact the game state in both those games was the opposite of what you think. The 9 9 Gate game Snow didn't have to kill drones to be ahead. He just had to force lings. Soulkey had 7 drones at 9 minutes ffs. It was negated by the fact that Snow didn't have an expansion as well but Snow was surely ahead after that opening. That's why Soulkey had to turtle so hard later (he built tons of sunken at every base) and was even behind Snow in number of bases. His strategy was to turtle up on 4 bases and max out with Defiler to usurp the game from there, and it almost worked. It was actually Soulkey who had to transition out of a bad opening. And the 5 Pool game Soulkey didn't kill enough probes (he killed like 2 or something).In every standard map, holding a 4/5 Pool = Zerg taps out, because the economic losses is just too big for Zerg. What allowed him to transition out of it is the map. By killing the gas he had that side of the map for himself and was able to build Hatch and drones without building a single ling. Nothing is scarier than Zerg being able to do that. That's why in the map Monty Hall where Zerg is allowed to do that, the ZvP win rate is 80%. Soulkey was behind for like 1 minute because of the 5 Pool choice, then automatically got ahead just because of the map feature.
I just respond to the 5 pool game because I don't think I stated my view of the game state of the 9/9 gate anywhere. My remark was just a polemic rebuttal to the previous point.
Regarding the the 5 pool game you are correct and I need to revise my statement a bit. Soulkey killed 3 probes. However, he only build 8 lings and went immediately into droning. So when the cannon finished up, Snow was mining with 13 probes and Soulkey with 8 drones. This is not you standard 5 pool game because in a standard 5 pool game, the zerg would sit at home with 5 drones at that point. Soulkey was also able to get another pylon and the forge with his initial lings (this would have happened on any map). At this point I think Snow had a pretty good lead but it was not the kind of lead you usually have in a 5 pool game. The rest I fully agree with you on. The map basically gifted Soulkey 2 free bases and at least 5 minutes of drone up time without pressure opportunity, which is just stupid.
|
Does anyone else feel like some earlier reavers could have made a difference? At least if a Zerg goes as hard on Lurkers as Soulkey did?
I mean, even the few lurkers Snow made seemed to at least recoup their cost and would have relieved some pressure (offense is a different story)?
Anyway awesome series  .
|
The best part of this thread is when people react to the events live with simple words like: "wtf was that", "storms incoming", "Snow channeling his inner Mini".. All this aftertalk about what should have been right or wrong is a waste of time. Also a waste of time is my lament about this being the most heartbreaking loss in ASL history (probably). I am sick of Soulkey and i WANTED a freaking PvP just so we could have A NEW champion! Why not!!! We had plenty of TvT and ZvZ!
|
On May 14 2025 06:52 Miragee wrote:
The 9 9 Gate game Snow didn't have to kill drones to be ahead. He just had to force lings. Soulkey had 7 drones at 9 minutes ffs. It was negated by the fact that Snow didn't have an expansion as well but Snow was surely ahead after that opening.
Soulkey also wasn't forced to keep massing lings once he got the sunken up ~4:50. At that point he's stable and can start adding drones (not pure drones but some drones), and his economy would quickly pass Snow's since he's got more patches to mine. Instead he tried to kill Snow, failed, and belatedly transitioned after he was firmly behind.
|
On May 15 2025 08:49 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2025 06:52 Miragee wrote:
The 9 9 Gate game Snow didn't have to kill drones to be ahead. He just had to force lings. Soulkey had 7 drones at 9 minutes ffs. It was negated by the fact that Snow didn't have an expansion as well but Snow was surely ahead after that opening. Soulkey also wasn't forced to keep massing lings once he got the sunken up ~4:50. At that point he's stable and can start adding drones (not pure drones but some drones), and his economy would quickly pass Snow's since he's got more patches to mine. Instead he tried to kill Snow, failed, and belatedly transitioned after he was firmly behind.
then, no 3rd and map control though.
|
On May 14 2025 02:46 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2025 02:19 mOnion wrote:
It’s not trying to get a cheap win by cannon rushing or 2 gate, it’s trying to get an early advantage in any capacity in a matchup where Zerg dictates the entire game from start to finish. Otherwise you’re forced like Snow was to mine out on two base, push out without obs to get on the map for the first time all game, and pray you win engages.
Standard PvZ is letting Zergs do whatever they want while you sit on two base blind. It’s perfectly reasonable for pros to try and avoid that with early game wrinkles.
It speaks more to the matchup than anything that Snow was so desperate he tried a horrific cannon rush game 7. He was desperate to coin flip the imbalance away PvZ is hard, but the theory behind modern PvZ is similar to the theory of modern TvP, just more complicated imo. Terrans get their nat up as quick and safely as they can, scout and respond to whatever P is doing, get vultures on the map / pressure with early mini-pushes to keep Protoss in check to make sure they don't get away with too quick a third or tech, go up to 5-6 fact, and move out with a large mid-game army to either kill Protoss or they take their 3rd / 4th behind it if they don't think they can kill Protoss and transition into late game. Very similar to how PvZ is supposed to be played now a days.
I agree. Zealots are being used like vultures. Dragoons are being used like tanks. It's a change in the Korean playstyle I noticed some time ago, when Flash returned. I wonder if he had played more Protoss during his absence and developed an idea for it, inspiring the Protoss players in some way. Right now, wacky builds with all-in senses are the trend. Sort of like 2 fact base pushes with Terran. With good micro, the timings come with just a little extra oomph to do damage to get ahead. Scouting with corsair has always been a problem in that it costs too much. It's the cost of getting legs, basically, AND 2 psi. It's just better to get legs (and you'll get it earlier) and maintain zealot pressure around the map, and dictate the pace of the game and get some control over Zerg's tech that way. But playing like this requires so much skill, tactical skill. And no one is storm dropping regularly and I think this is an essential tool that is missing out. Imagine vultures that could not raid! Much less annoying units, and a real advantage for someone.
|
There are very good reasons why we don't see storm drops in PvZ very much. Trust me when I say that, when the best pros do or don't do something over the course of many games, they're generally right.
|
On May 15 2025 15:00 Magic Powers wrote:
There are very good reasons why we don't see storm drops in PvZ very much. Trust me when I say that, when the best pros do or don't do something over the course of many games, they're generally right.
Did they mention why thus far? I’m noticing less/none late game econ storm drop in v Z too, but haven’t put much thought into it.
|
On May 14 2025 07:07 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2025 02:46 G5 wrote:
Every loss SnOw just had (except for game 1) was extremely deserved. He missed storms, took bad fights, made bad decisions, and lost as a result in every one of those. PvZ is imba, I do agree with it, but it's not by as much as you think it is and those builds to try and "avoid the early game wrinkles" are just generally bad. You gotta look at it like Terrans look at TvP. It's literally the same concepts but in an entirely different MU. Scout and stop the bullshit while keeping them in check, consolidate your army into a strong mid-game push, expand behind the push and pull back if you can't kill (this is extremely simplified obviously). Are you kidding me? How can the loss on Death Valley be deserved, let alone extremely deserved? First of all he managed the impossible of glitching the probe through TWO drones to save himself from the immediate loss. But while in a normal map he would have won, here he still lost probes, got locked out of the right side of the map, took ages to start his natural again (and lost a forge and a pylon), while Zerg could freely build Hatch and drone up to compensate for the early economic sacrifce without any fear of ever being attacked on all those bases. In fact Soulkey got overcompensated so much that he got far ahead and can play from a leading position. Plus he had both economic advantage AND map advantage (never had to defend right sided bases, while Snow had to pour resources into defending on that side), Technically it's not a free win (a free win would be the hydra bust on Arkanoid) as the Zerg still has to work hard for it, but if you offer any pro that kind of free lead, they would bite your hand off, because at this level and especially when the two players are around the same skill level, they never drop that kind of lead. There's a reason pros boycotted this map immediately after its release (they didn't even boycott Monty Hall - which is another dogshit map - that fast).
SoulKey sacrificed eco early, SnOw held, SoulKey then turned it into legitimately a semi-island map (Protoss is the best race in these scenarios by the way) and SoulKey outplayed SnOw from there. SoulKey also did have to defend the right side of the map a bit and did so well. As I said, SnOw deserved the loss. He was in a fine position and misplayed it. You can have your opinion and I respect it but that is mine.
|
On May 14 2025 02:46 G5 wrote:
SoulKey sacrificed eco early, SnOw held, SoulKey then turned it into legitimately a semi-island map (Protoss is the best race in these scenarios by the way) and SoulKey outplayed SnOw from there.
SoulKey turned it into 1-sided semi-island map: Snow was playing it, Soulkey had a normal map.
Snow is to be blamed for his build choice. Probably all he practised for his games was forge opener, and that just wasn't a good choice for Death Valley.
|
is there really a protoss player that actually thought that snow had a chance to win the series?
he was gonna lose anyway due to the nature of the match up ... 4-3 or 5-1 doest matter, bo5+++ vs zerg at equal skill, , protoss is never winning...
bo1 mb
bo3 mb
bo5 nope
bo7 rofl gtfo
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
