EPT[ASL19] Semifinal B - Page 18
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Giovanni8
57 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States2022 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5981 Posts
On May 13 2025 22:41 CicadaSC wrote: The nice thing is BeSt has a lot of material to look at of how to beat Soulkey and his tendencies in a high stakes match after those 7 games and on all maps. That will certainly help. Surely his big SKT1 bro Bisu, and also Mini and Snow will be very happy to give tips as well! | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13536 Posts
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oxKnu
1268 Posts
I think SK wins pretty easily but we will get some decent games along the way. I hope Best can reign in his emotions (I doubt it) and execute his gameplan. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4300 Posts
GGs | ||
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TornadoSteve
1143 Posts
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Gippy
41 Posts
Oh well, Best in 7 | ||
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Last.Midnight
Australia906 Posts
Really not expecting much from the finals. | ||
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prion_
82 Posts
On May 13 2025 23:18 TornadoSteve wrote: I wouldn't sleep on Best. He's got nothing to lose. As opposed to Snow? | ||
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oxKnu
1268 Posts
On May 13 2025 23:18 TornadoSteve wrote: I wouldn't sleep on Best. He's got nothing to lose. Good point. However, he also has to believe that this is the case. For some reason, that's hard to imagine. | ||
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VioleTAK
4411 Posts
Snow did so well, and it feels he was exhausted at the end. It was so close.... SK showed he is beatable (and somehow at the same time showed he was unbeatable). I think Best can come with the attitude of nothing to lose, everything to gain, as almost no one expects him to win. GGs! | ||
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TMNT
3404 Posts
Like I said before, Snow is on the same skill level with Soulkey but he can't win because he plays standard 90% of the time and when both players don't make major mistakes and are on the same skill level, the favored race of the matchup wins. Best is not on the same skill level. He can only overcome it by doing "gotcha" builds against the Zergs but it works best with Queen (hence he lost to Mini multiple times in ASL) and rarely works with Soulkey. It's gonna be a brutal 4 0 or 4 1. By the way, Stork was right, Protosses should all give up on this matchup. | ||
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mOnion
United States5660 Posts
What a matchup. PvZ makes me bored in these recent ASLs, I personally think it’s a hopeless matchup and there’s nothing that can be done. Maybe Best will cannon rush every game to make it interesting, might as well coin flip an obviously broken matchup | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4186 Posts
On May 14 2025 01:13 TMNT wrote: Best has no chance. Like I said before, Snow is on the same skill level with Soulkey but he can't win because he plays standard 90% of the time and when both players don't make major mistakes and are on the same skill level, the favored race of the matchup wins. Best is not on the same skill level. He can only overcome it by doing "gotcha" builds against the Zergs but it works best with Queen (hence he lost to Mini multiple times in ASL) and rarely works with Soulkey. It's gonna be a brutal 4 0 or 4 1. By the way, Stork was right, Protosses should all give up on this matchup. I am not saying that you are not right, but also one of the things that helped Soulkey to win today was the Death Valley free ZvP map. Both Zs and Ts often get maps that are pretty favored, while this is rarely the case for Ps. What will happen if tournaments have 1 island/semi island map out of 7? We never see this, but what I am trying to say is that maps are pretty biased in a way against Protoss by never giving them a free win maps. Protoss is always at the semis, at the finals, but rarely winning and a good map for them like T and Z usually have may actually make the difference, who knows. | ||
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G5
United States2921 Posts
Everyone saying BeSt doesn't have a chance is wild. Map makers have done everything they can to even out this match up, a lot of stuff is super standardized now, and he's got a better chance here and now than at any point. The problem is that Protoss knows how hard PvZ is and they have those throw-away games of trying to cannon rush, 2 stargate, double proxy gate, etc. Protoss' always do this in series, trying to get a cheap win, and honestly the best way to play is just straight up. That may not be the case for people like myself and everyone else in this forum, but if you are a professional that can perfectly macro, micro, hit storms, make good fighting decisions and base-timing decisions, PvZ is best played exactly how SnOw approached most of these games. Best shouldn't stray from that. He should trust his game is good enough to beat SK and play each game correctly. That's the only way I see him having a shot here. SK ain't dying to gimmick BS in ZvP. It's a low EV play and if he does that shit, he's going to get embarrassed. | ||
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mOnion
United States5660 Posts
Standard PvZ is letting Zergs do whatever they want while you sit on two base blind. It’s perfectly reasonable for pros to try and avoid that with early game wrinkles. It speaks more to the matchup than anything that Snow was so desperate he tried a horrific cannon rush game 7. He was desperate to coin flip the imbalance away | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
Don't get me wrong, Soulkey fought like a lion to get the match W. Snow made his head spin in several of these games and SK 100% deserves to advance, because Snow did not go easy on him. Snow only failed in a few places. Unfortunately those few places were enough to lose the match. You can't give SK an inch, he'll brutalize you if you let him. | ||
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G5
United States2921 Posts
On May 14 2025 02:19 mOnion wrote: It’s not trying to get a cheap win by cannon rushing or 2 gate, it’s trying to get an early advantage in any capacity in a matchup where Zerg dictates the entire game from start to finish. Otherwise you’re forced like Snow was to mine out on two base, push out without obs to get on the map for the first time all game, and pray you win engages. Standard PvZ is letting Zergs do whatever they want while you sit on two base blind. It’s perfectly reasonable for pros to try and avoid that with early game wrinkles. It speaks more to the matchup than anything that Snow was so desperate he tried a horrific cannon rush game 7. He was desperate to coin flip the imbalance away IMO standard PvZ is to get your nexus up as soon as you safely can, scout with a sair, and respond to what Zerg is doing, all while pressuring with Zealots to force lings so they don't drone freely, get up enough sairs / goons to protect hts from getting snipped by mutas and hydras, come out with a mid-game push that either ends the game or you trade as efficiently as you can and retreat to the 3rd and 4rd you made while you pushed out and transition into late game. PvZ is hard, but the theory behind modern PvZ is similar to the theory of modern TvP, just more complicated imo. Terrans get their nat up as quick and safely as they can, scout and respond to whatever P is doing, get vultures on the map / pressure with early mini-pushes to keep Protoss in check to make sure they don't get away with too quick a third or tech, go up to 5-6 fact, and move out with a large mid-game army to either kill Protoss or they take their 3rd / 4th behind it if they don't think they can kill Protoss and transition into late game. Very similar to how PvZ is supposed to be played now a days. Every loss SnOw just had (except for game 1) was extremely deserved. He missed storms, took bad fights, made bad decisions, and lost as a result in every one of those. PvZ is imba, I do agree with it, but it's not by as much as you think it is and those builds to try and "avoid the early game wrinkles" are just generally bad. You gotta look at it like Terrans look at TvP. It's literally the same concepts but in an entirely different MU. Scout and stop the bullshit while keeping them in check, consolidate your army into a strong mid-game push, expand behind the push and pull back if you can't kill (this is extremely simplified obviously). | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1780 Posts
SnOw's style is a good demonstration of a standard p v z indeed, the problem with that safe and square gameplay is that you will most likely never win vs a better opponent than you. At some point you gotta be more creative to create surprise, I don't think SK at any point got caught off guard aside of that late dt on dominator but who wouldn't considering the context? I would be way more scared of playing Mini who has a better mind game and is way more sneaky coze I would be constantly thinking that danger can come from anywhere at anytime. That's a better example of a good pvz imo, but you need to be a bit gifted to play like that I believe. | ||
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