EPT[ASL19] Semifinal B - Page 19
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19213 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
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TMNT
2536 Posts
On May 14 2025 06:03 Rainalcar wrote: When was the last P won a pvz bo7? Or bo5? Did you just forget Best beating Quen 4-3 just a week ago haha. Aside from that it's not as rare as you may think: Rain 3-2 Soulkey and Rain 4-2 Soma in ASL13. Best 3-1 Action ASL15. Mini 4-0 Effort ASL16. But honestly Effort and Action are not tier 1 so understandable. Rain's run during that ASL was outstanding though, but back then Soulkey wasn't as good as he is now. ASL 17 18 19 are all Soulkey so no one's beating him. | ||
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Miragee
8474 Posts
Well, at least we saw games 2-5, those were fantastic. Lets hope Best will not die to all those early game shenanigans but I do have a bad feeling about this. Imho Snow is much better at defending these than Best so we might be in for a quick 4-0 or 4-1. : / On May 13 2025 22:47 RowdierBob wrote: It was impressive how well SK reacted to that cannon rush. He must’ve seen it before because a Zerg would prob not send that many drones to defend unless they knew more probes were coming. If he sends only 5-6 drones then those cannons get up and snow gets way ahead in the game. Why not? He can immediately start mining there after defending... On May 14 2025 02:19 mOnion wrote: It’s not trying to get a cheap win by cannon rushing or 2 gate, it’s trying to get an early advantage in any capacity in a matchup where Zerg dictates the entire game from start to finish. Otherwise you’re forced like Snow was to mine out on two base, push out without obs to get on the map for the first time all game, and pray you win engages. Standard PvZ is letting Zergs do whatever they want while you sit on two base blind. It’s perfectly reasonable for pros to try and avoid that with early game wrinkles. It speaks more to the matchup than anything that Snow was so desperate he tried a horrific cannon rush game 7. He was desperate to coin flip the imbalance away This is not true. You forgot the game where Snow went center 9/9 gate, didn't kill a single drone and transitioned out of it. Also, in the game with the 5 pool, Soulkey killed enough probes to have an almost even worker count (Snow was 2 ahead or so maybe). Of course you can transition out of that if you do that much damage. Imho standard PvZ is a bad way to go about the matchup because you let zerg dictate the game. The best PvZers (Bisu and Mini) would always try to never let up with the pressure to keep dictating the game. I think this is the key to this match up for protoss. Not saying that doesn't make it unbalanced. ZvP is still favouring zerg, mostly because it's so hard for protoss to scout until midgame and the zerg early to mid units are incredibly potent in the match up. But I do think there is an option for protoss to enhance their chances at winning between one base all in and sitting on your ass until 9 gates are online. | ||
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TMNT
2536 Posts
On May 14 2025 02:46 G5 wrote: Every loss SnOw just had (except for game 1) was extremely deserved. He missed storms, took bad fights, made bad decisions, and lost as a result in every one of those. PvZ is imba, I do agree with it, but it's not by as much as you think it is and those builds to try and "avoid the early game wrinkles" are just generally bad. You gotta look at it like Terrans look at TvP. It's literally the same concepts but in an entirely different MU. Scout and stop the bullshit while keeping them in check, consolidate your army into a strong mid-game push, expand behind the push and pull back if you can't kill (this is extremely simplified obviously). Are you kidding me? How can the loss on Death Valley be deserved, let alone extremely deserved? First of all he managed the impossible of glitching the probe through TWO drones to save himself from the immediate loss. But while in a normal map he would have won, here he still lost probes, got locked out of the right side of the map, took ages to start his natural again (and lost a forge and a pylon), while Zerg could freely build Hatch and drone up to compensate for the early economic sacrifce without any fear of ever being attacked on all those bases. In fact Soulkey got overcompensated so much that he got far ahead and can play from a leading position. Plus he had both economic advantage AND map advantage (never had to defend right sided bases, while Snow had to pour resources into defending on that side), Technically it's not a free win (a free win would be the hydra bust on Arkanoid) as the Zerg still has to work hard for it, but if you offer any pro that kind of free lead, they would bite your hand off, because at this level and especially when the two players are around the same skill level, they never drop that kind of lead. There's a reason pros boycotted this map immediately after its release (they didn't even boycott Monty Hall - which is another dogshit map - that fast). | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7762 Posts
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Lazyer
United States341 Posts
Really rootin for the underdog as usual! Legend of the ... *checks notes*... spring??? | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12997 Posts
On May 14 2025 02:46 G5 wrote: IMO standard PvZ is to get your nexus up as soon as you safely can, scout with a sair, and respond to what Zerg is doing, all while pressuring with Zealots to force lings so they don't drone freely, get up enough sairs / goons to protect hts from getting snipped by mutas and hydras, come out with a mid-game push that either ends the game or you trade as efficiently as you can and retreat to the 3rd and 4rd you made while you pushed out and transition into late game. PvZ is hard, but the theory behind modern PvZ is similar to the theory of modern TvP, just more complicated imo. Terrans get their nat up as quick and safely as they can, scout and respond to whatever P is doing, get vultures on the map / pressure with early mini-pushes to keep Protoss in check to make sure they don't get away with too quick a third or tech, go up to 5-6 fact, and move out with a large mid-game army to either kill Protoss or they take their 3rd / 4th behind it if they don't think they can kill Protoss and transition into late game. Very similar to how PvZ is supposed to be played now a days. Every loss SnOw just had (except for game 1) was extremely deserved. He missed storms, took bad fights, made bad decisions, and lost as a result in every one of those. PvZ is imba, I do agree with it, but it's not by as much as you think it is and those builds to try and "avoid the early game wrinkles" are just generally bad. You gotta look at it like Terrans look at TvP. It's literally the same concepts but in an entirely different MU. Scout and stop the bullshit while keeping them in check, consolidate your army into a strong mid-game push, expand behind the push and pull back if you can't kill (this is extremely simplified obviously). Snow suffered a bit from his predictability with his stargate first builds. The scouting is important but it also let SK pull off flawless openers that allowed him a quick 4th and much drone whoring. Where Best did really well vs Queen I think was shifting to citadel first plays (esp in games 6 and 7 I think from memory). He got +1 zeals out a lot faster and disrupted Queen’s mindless macroing. I get it leaves you open to mutas and means you’re playing a bit more blind but I hope Best at least comes with some plans to disrupt SK’s flow. | ||
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Highways
Australia6102 Posts
Zerg can have disadvataged openers and still get the game to neutral. Whereas Protoss one mistake and the game is gone | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey718 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On May 14 2025 06:23 TMNT wrote: Did you just forget Best beating Quen 4-3 just a week ago haha. Aside from that it's not as rare as you may think: Rain 3-2 Soulkey and Rain 4-2 Soma in ASL13. Best 3-1 Action ASL15. Mini 4-0 Effort ASL16. But honestly Effort and Action are not tier 1 so understandable. Rain's run during that ASL was outstanding though, but back then Soulkey wasn't as good as he is now. ASL 17 18 19 are all Soulkey so no one's beating him. I know, I know, I was joking :D I still hate pvz though, the match up is pure pain for P | ||
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TMNT
2536 Posts
On May 14 2025 06:52 Miragee wrote: This is not true. You forgot the game where Snow went center 9/9 gate, didn't kill a single drone and transitioned out of it. Also, in the game with the 5 pool, Soulkey killed enough probes to have an almost even worker count (Snow was 2 ahead or so maybe). Of course you can transition out of that if you do that much damage You are totally wrong on this point. In fact the game state in both those games was the opposite of what you think. The 9 9 Gate game Snow didn't have to kill drones to be ahead. He just had to force lings. Soulkey had 7 drones at 9 minutes ffs. It was negated by the fact that Snow didn't have an expansion as well but Snow was surely ahead after that opening. That's why Soulkey had to turtle so hard later (he built tons of sunken at every base) and was even behind Snow in number of bases. His strategy was to turtle up on 4 bases and max out with Defiler to usurp the game from there, and it almost worked. It was actually Soulkey who had to transition out of a bad opening. And the 5 Pool game Soulkey didn't kill enough probes (he killed like 2 or something).In every standard map, holding a 4/5 Pool = Zerg taps out, because the economic losses is just too big for Zerg. What allowed him to transition out of it is the map. By killing the gas he had that side of the map for himself and was able to build Hatch and drones without building a single ling. Nothing is scarier than Zerg being able to do that. That's why in the map Monty Hall where Zerg is allowed to do that, the ZvP win rate is 80%. Soulkey was behind for like 1 minute because of the 5 Pool choice, then automatically got ahead just because of the map feature. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3731 Posts
I will also say Soulkey's victory was 100% on Snow to prevent. He had two games in a row to get the big W but he just completely forgot how winning works. Soulkey persisted while Snow ran out of steam. Fully deserved victory for Soulkey in spite of an imbalanced map. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
66 Posts
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namkraft
432 Posts
I'm thinking the only way to play on this map as protoss is to go 1 gate (in your main) & no gas, then blindly expand into the base behind the 3 minerals. If Zerg tries early zergling aggression, Protoss can try to block the 2 extractor door with 1/2 zealots and some probes. Then eventually seal himself in. With the gate shut, Protoss is not in a bad position if he can survive until the late game. The secret I think is to expand towards the left lane and use reavers. U see the left lane has more bases than the right lane. To win late game, Soulkey needs to take some of the left lane bases and that will put him in direct conflict with Snow's closely knitted armies and bases. For a defensive posture, Snow should add some reavers and not just HT. If Soulkey tries to take a hatchery on the left lane, Snow's job is just to shut it down then retreat to his bases, covered with reavers and HTs. In this specific set up, Zerg doesn't enjoy the mobility that he often enjoys in late-game on a normal map (like a 4-player map). Their late game advantage of defilers is better countered with reavers than HT. Snow's natural at 1 o clock can be taken by Zerg, but realistically speaking he can never mine it with dragoons and HTs on the high ground. With even number of bases between P & Z, Zerg will eventually tap out. | ||
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TMNT
2536 Posts
Imagine giving Snow a free 12 Nexus cross spawn opening against Terrans regular Factory expand, you wouldn't even bet on Flash to turn the game around. It's that kind of advantage for Soulkey on Death Valley. | ||
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TMNT
2536 Posts
On May 14 2025 17:48 namkraft wrote: With even number of bases between P & Z, Zerg will eventually tap out. This is not even true though. Soulkey already demonstrated in game 3 that Zerg even on LESS bases than Protoss, can still win. The power of Defiler + maxed out Zerg is enough to usurp any kind of economic advantage the Protoss holds. 200 vs 200, the Zerg has every chance to win the fight, and without a standing army it doesn't matter how many bases Protoss has because one orange cloud is all it takes to take down 1 base. That is the second problem of the matchup after the early scouting problem. Although the late game army mobility is similar to PvT, the dynamics in army power is nowhere near similar. Protoss can't take the fight head-on vs Terran in the late game, but the Zerg can vs Protoss. | ||
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femtehjulet
16 Posts
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Ideas
United States8077 Posts
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ggsimida
1142 Posts
On May 14 2025 20:51 Ideas wrote: I feel like I see so many fewer storm drops nowadays compared to a few years ago. Is it considered too risky/not worth it in late games nowadays? Or is the level of multitasking by pros not up for it any more? Snow never did any sort of drop harass all series (unless im forgetting something). pre-mastered/pre covid bisu is the only one who can really play that multitask style regardless of the efficacy (and i dare say it can be really efficient watching those older games storming tons of drones) it was much better to watch than the standard deathballing fest u see nowadays. and dont give map excuse bisu is doing it on bog boring FS of all maps yea i see virtually 0 drop harass in any lategame pvz these days its just ridiculous, but thats too much to expect from older gen of players besides sticking to standard play and deathballing. honestly i don't see much revolution in pvz gameplay besides playing more sparkle esque maps, revolution is not gonna come without competitive 16 year olds to push the mechanics of the game further than the boomers. | ||
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