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[ASL19] Semifinal B
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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sysen
27 Posts
On May 13 2025 11:45 BLinD-RawR wrote: open the results section and tell me the map selection doesn't look aesthetically pleasing It is indeed  Prediction so far: Head : SK (4) - Snow (1) Heart : Snow (4) - SK(3) in an epic game 7 Snow deserve another title shot, but im afraid SK gonna stomp him hard... | ||
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prototype.
Canada4200 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
I know historically snow is not that great in PvZ but that's like years ago, idk now though. I wanna cheer for snow but man soulkey is gonna be tough. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey727 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
On May 13 2025 15:10 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: How's snow vs soulkey in online tournaments? (i.e. daily proleagues, showmatches, etc) I know historically snow is not that great in PvZ but that's like years ago, idk now though. I wanna cheer for snow but man soulkey is gonna be tough. Snow's PvZ is currently almost unmatched and has been for a while. I'd say the only variable to consider is nerves, otherwise people are strongly underestimating him. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1556 Posts
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Simplistik
2006 Posts
That said, we've not seen SK roll over in ages. Everyone who beat him in series had to really work for it. | ||
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rotta
5586 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands843 Posts
In online Snow won most of their last best of series. But so did Light vs Best, and we all.know how that ended. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 13 2025 19:14 BLinD-RawR wrote: are the finals at a different venue? Maybe at July's place? | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
Let's go  SnOw! | ||
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prosatan
Romania8024 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8024 Posts
but sk manages to stabilize | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8024 Posts
congrats sk 1-0 | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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Magic Powers
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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Peeano
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Peeano
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Peeano
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Peeano
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Peeano
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21675 Posts
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Peeano
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Peeano
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Peeano
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands843 Posts
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Simplistik
2006 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
I knew Snow has it in him, even Soulkey has to fear him. | ||
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tankgirl
Canada407 Posts
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4353 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:01 BLinD-RawR wrote: ads weren't this bad in the Ro8, this is ass, theres like 5-7 mins of downtime between each game. True that. This is bad for Snow's momentum. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
ads weren't this bad in the Ro8, this is ass, theres like 5-7 mins of downtime between each game. gotta bring out that content early in case this goes like 4-0, thankfully it aint going 4-0 at this rate | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21675 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:01 BLinD-RawR wrote: only one series a day, no idea if its 4 or 7 games. gotta get those bought for ads in there.ads weren't this bad in the Ro8, this is ass, theres like 5-7 mins of downtime between each game. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:01 BLinD-RawR wrote: ads weren't this bad in the Ro8, this is ass, theres like 5-7 mins of downtime between each game. It’s sucks but it’s also the reason we keep getting new ASL seasons. Gotta pay the bills. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:03 Gorsameth wrote: only one series a day, no idea if its 4 or 7 games. gotta get those bought for ads in there. I specifically mentioned Ro8 because its the same conditions, one match a day all Bo7s. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 13 2025 19:58 DropBear wrote: Who is the Korean commentator on the right? He absolutely hates that energy drink  Lee Seung-won | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21675 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:05 BLinD-RawR wrote: for some reason I thought they were still 2 games ><I specifically mentioned Ro8 because its the same conditions, one match a day all Bo7s. could be that they sold more ad time for the semi's cause more people tune in for them (presumably) | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4353 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
nvm he can't go back there at this point | ||
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:16 DropBear wrote: Who even needs drones, right? Zerg is a ridiculous race. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21675 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:17 RowdierBob wrote: Any chance this doesn’t end in a hydra all in? Yeah. Muta all in, much like game 1. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Peeano
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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gravity
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BLinD-RawR
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Peeano
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DropBear
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RowdierBob
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Magic Powers
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RowdierBob
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BLinD-RawR
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DropBear
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Peeano
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Magic Powers
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BLinD-RawR
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Peeano
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
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Peeano
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BLinD-RawR
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DropBear
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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gravity
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BLinD-RawR
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gravity
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Magic Powers
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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Magic Powers
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Peeano
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:34 Magic Powers wrote: Soulkey is gonna run out of resources unless he destroys Snow now. Don't be crazy, Sk is Zerg they don't need supply or resources. Only Defilers. Dude had 7 drones at 9 mins and we are at a 30 min game. Edit before anyone takes this seriously, It's a joke. I really don't want Snow to win. No one wants PvP finals lmao. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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Peeano
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Peeano
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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Peeano
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
SK is ltrying so hard now to deny 6 being rebuilt | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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DropBear
Australia4353 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
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Peeano
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BLinD-RawR
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TornadoSteve
1023 Posts
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Magic Powers
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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Grouhh
56 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1709 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands843 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21675 Posts
Best ASL yet? | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
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SwordM13X24
United States190 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1556 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:46 Gorsameth wrote: god this tournament, we have had such good games. Best ASL yet? this holds up to ASL6 and ASL9 | ||
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Giovanni8
57 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1709 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:46 SkelA wrote: I'm more impressed that SK made it that close. Snow barely won but he played amazing as well. SK threw. after he pinned snow down to just the 6 o clock base he should have expanded. he had complete map control. instead he just attacked 3 or 4 times in a row trying to break that base and didnt break it before mining out. it was like he was scared to go late game vs snow. really weird. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1556 Posts
Nothing matches yet EffOrt run during ASL6! | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:47 Peeano wrote: Soulkey gg timing was when he saw his long distance mining drones choose the main as closer by than his last made hatch... lol You can force your drones to return to a different hatchery. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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Zergxhx
China146 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21675 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1556 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:49 Magic Powers wrote: You can force your drones to return to a different hatchery. I was thinking right then and there: *Just press C, bro!* but tbh you can't be doing that shit every return cargo round when you have all the other things to worry about. That game flaw is just huge frustration at times like that. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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RowdierBob
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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SkelA
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Giovanni8
57 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
On May 13 2025 20:53 Peeano wrote: I was thinking right then and there: *Just press C, bro!* but tbh you can't be doing that shit every return cargo round when you have all the other things to worry about. That game flaw is just huge frustration at times like that. Yeah I think you're right that it defeated Soulkey mentally. The 6 o' clock was objectively enough to win and he would have to pull a miracle to destroy it. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
Wait: he did not | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 13 2025 21:02 RowdierBob wrote: Snow forget legs? just kicked in | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
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Peeano
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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RowdierBob
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
walked through all those lurkers to get that one drone. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1709 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1556 Posts
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RowdierBob
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RowdierBob
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BLinD-RawR
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
On May 13 2025 21:12 RowdierBob wrote: Some feedback would be good. Just saying DA's too expensive | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
though by that logic they shouldn't hit SCVs or vultures but I'm ok with that lol | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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RowdierBob
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BLinD-RawR
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
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prosatan
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Peeano
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 4? Yes (31) No (1) 32 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 4? I fat fingered it, no 3rd option and don't want to remake. | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey727 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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TornadoSteve
1023 Posts
On May 13 2025 21:16 gravity wrote: Think some storm or reaver drops on the Zerg bases on the top/right side might have been a good idea Pretty sure it was mined out shortly after he got reavers. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
Snow was playing catchup the whole game. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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Magic Powers
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BLinD-RawR
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Peeano
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Peeano
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RowdierBob
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Zergxhx
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RowdierBob
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BLinD-RawR
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gravity
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RowdierBob
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gravity
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Magic Powers
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BLinD-RawR
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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Zergxhx
China146 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4353 Posts
On May 13 2025 21:40 BLinD-RawR wrote: snow does not care about his probes, all series. Is it better or worse to 1. kill them yourself or 2. see they are dying and not care haha | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1709 Posts
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 13 2025 21:43 DropBear wrote: Is it better or worse to 1. kill them yourself or 2. see they are dying and not care haha 2. first one was a calculated risk that paid off lol | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
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prion_
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
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BLinD-RawR
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SkelA
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Toshinou-Kyouko
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BLinD-RawR
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iFU.pauline
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Necro)Phagist(
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DropBear
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 13 2025 21:49 DropBear wrote: They both must be exhausted at this point snow is a dad, he has the stamina. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1556 Posts
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SwordM13X24
United States190 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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Magic Powers
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Peeano
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Simplistik
2006 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1709 Posts
soulkey definitely either looks exhausted or like he lost confidence, but i thought that a few games ago even. | ||
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DropBear
Australia4353 Posts
On May 13 2025 21:50 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: time for the elon map hahahahahaha hahahahahaha | ||
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gravity
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Zergxhx
China146 Posts
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iFU.pauline
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RowdierBob
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gravity
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Magic Powers
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karbonara234
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BLinD-RawR
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Gorsameth
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DropBear
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 13 2025 22:06 Magic Powers wrote: I don't like how Snow played this. Very passive and then double-expanding? Not a winning formula. Probably thought he can turn 1 expo into a good trade or get away with both somehow. | ||
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RowdierBob
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Giovanni8
57 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
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Peeano
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
On May 13 2025 22:11 Peeano wrote: I really really really want Best to beat Soulkey and write the most amazing BW history yet, but at the cost of Snow not getting his 1st ASL gold will make feel salty for weeks. This season cannot end with a PvP. I'm sorry Snow, but for the love of the game, he has to lose this last map. | ||
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prion_
69 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
Reminds me of Bisu Vs Stork final. 1 of the best | ||
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Scarlett`
Canada2385 Posts
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Peeano
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Necro)Phagist(
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prosatan
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gravity
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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durachok
9 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21675 Posts
god not like this | ||
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prosatan
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gravity
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Zergxhx
China146 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
On May 13 2025 22:17 weiliem wrote: I actually like watching PvP. Why do people hate it? Reminds me of Bisu Vs Stork final. 1 of the best Mirror match in general get realllyyy low viewer ratings and hype. PvP these days feels like the simplest rock, paper, scissors possible in SC. I don't hattee it personally but I just know how bad it is for viewership. also Arty whining about Toss being OP for the next 10 years off one PvP finals would be unbearable. | ||
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RowdierBob
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
On May 13 2025 22:24 RowdierBob wrote: Don’t like this for snow Not ideal but not as bad of a spot as I thought he was gonna be in given the open. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Giovanni8
57 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
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Scarlett`
Canada2385 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
But Snow felt bad about taking the mutas and decided to donate his Corsairs | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4353 Posts
 so many HT tooI think Snow is in trouble | ||
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prosatan
Romania8024 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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SCRVN
67 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines147 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
Best is gonna get obliterated. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8024 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7888 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
((((((( Best is gonna get wrecked in finals | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey727 Posts
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
And thanks god we don’t need to suffer though a PvP final | ||
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Giovanni8
57 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Giovanni8
57 Posts
On May 13 2025 22:33 HOLYBATS wrote: This is the best Snow can do. Congrats SK! Totally agree, this Is the best a P can do vs Z like this. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
Best doesn't have that level of PvZ in him. Interesting to see how he approaches trying to take down SK. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4353 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
I doubt Best has much chance in the final when he barely beat the significantly weaker Queen, but maybe he will pull off something epic. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1556 Posts
GG SK, I don't see how Best can get through this final though. | ||
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Giovanni8
57 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1709 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 13 2025 22:41 CicadaSC wrote: The nice thing is BeSt has a lot of material to look at of how to beat Soulkey and his tendencies in a high stakes match after those 7 games and on all maps. That will certainly help. Surely his big SKT1 bro Bisu, and also Mini and Snow will be very happy to give tips as well! | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
I think SK wins pretty easily but we will get some decent games along the way. I hope Best can reign in his emotions (I doubt it) and execute his gameplan. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
GGs | ||
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TornadoSteve
1023 Posts
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Gippy
10 Posts
Oh well, Best in 7 | ||
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Last.Midnight
Australia903 Posts
Really not expecting much from the finals. | ||
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prion_
69 Posts
On May 13 2025 23:18 TornadoSteve wrote: I wouldn't sleep on Best. He's got nothing to lose. As opposed to Snow? | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On May 13 2025 23:18 TornadoSteve wrote: I wouldn't sleep on Best. He's got nothing to lose. Good point. However, he also has to believe that this is the case. For some reason, that's hard to imagine. | ||
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
Snow did so well, and it feels he was exhausted at the end. It was so close.... SK showed he is beatable (and somehow at the same time showed he was unbeatable). I think Best can come with the attitude of nothing to lose, everything to gain, as almost no one expects him to win. GGs! | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
Like I said before, Snow is on the same skill level with Soulkey but he can't win because he plays standard 90% of the time and when both players don't make major mistakes and are on the same skill level, the favored race of the matchup wins. Best is not on the same skill level. He can only overcome it by doing "gotcha" builds against the Zergs but it works best with Queen (hence he lost to Mini multiple times in ASL) and rarely works with Soulkey. It's gonna be a brutal 4 0 or 4 1. By the way, Stork was right, Protosses should all give up on this matchup. | ||
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
What a matchup. PvZ makes me bored in these recent ASLs, I personally think it’s a hopeless matchup and there’s nothing that can be done. Maybe Best will cannon rush every game to make it interesting, might as well coin flip an obviously broken matchup | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
On May 14 2025 01:13 TMNT wrote: Best has no chance. Like I said before, Snow is on the same skill level with Soulkey but he can't win because he plays standard 90% of the time and when both players don't make major mistakes and are on the same skill level, the favored race of the matchup wins. Best is not on the same skill level. He can only overcome it by doing "gotcha" builds against the Zergs but it works best with Queen (hence he lost to Mini multiple times in ASL) and rarely works with Soulkey. It's gonna be a brutal 4 0 or 4 1. By the way, Stork was right, Protosses should all give up on this matchup. I am not saying that you are not right, but also one of the things that helped Soulkey to win today was the Death Valley free ZvP map. Both Zs and Ts often get maps that are pretty favored, while this is rarely the case for Ps. What will happen if tournaments have 1 island/semi island map out of 7? We never see this, but what I am trying to say is that maps are pretty biased in a way against Protoss by never giving them a free win maps. Protoss is always at the semis, at the finals, but rarely winning and a good map for them like T and Z usually have may actually make the difference, who knows. | ||
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G5
United States2898 Posts
Everyone saying BeSt doesn't have a chance is wild. Map makers have done everything they can to even out this match up, a lot of stuff is super standardized now, and he's got a better chance here and now than at any point. The problem is that Protoss knows how hard PvZ is and they have those throw-away games of trying to cannon rush, 2 stargate, double proxy gate, etc. Protoss' always do this in series, trying to get a cheap win, and honestly the best way to play is just straight up. That may not be the case for people like myself and everyone else in this forum, but if you are a professional that can perfectly macro, micro, hit storms, make good fighting decisions and base-timing decisions, PvZ is best played exactly how SnOw approached most of these games. Best shouldn't stray from that. He should trust his game is good enough to beat SK and play each game correctly. That's the only way I see him having a shot here. SK ain't dying to gimmick BS in ZvP. It's a low EV play and if he does that shit, he's going to get embarrassed. | ||
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
Standard PvZ is letting Zergs do whatever they want while you sit on two base blind. It’s perfectly reasonable for pros to try and avoid that with early game wrinkles. It speaks more to the matchup than anything that Snow was so desperate he tried a horrific cannon rush game 7. He was desperate to coin flip the imbalance away | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
Don't get me wrong, Soulkey fought like a lion to get the match W. Snow made his head spin in several of these games and SK 100% deserves to advance, because Snow did not go easy on him. Snow only failed in a few places. Unfortunately those few places were enough to lose the match. You can't give SK an inch, he'll brutalize you if you let him. | ||
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G5
United States2898 Posts
On May 14 2025 02:19 mOnion wrote: It’s not trying to get a cheap win by cannon rushing or 2 gate, it’s trying to get an early advantage in any capacity in a matchup where Zerg dictates the entire game from start to finish. Otherwise you’re forced like Snow was to mine out on two base, push out without obs to get on the map for the first time all game, and pray you win engages. Standard PvZ is letting Zergs do whatever they want while you sit on two base blind. It’s perfectly reasonable for pros to try and avoid that with early game wrinkles. It speaks more to the matchup than anything that Snow was so desperate he tried a horrific cannon rush game 7. He was desperate to coin flip the imbalance away IMO standard PvZ is to get your nexus up as soon as you safely can, scout with a sair, and respond to what Zerg is doing, all while pressuring with Zealots to force lings so they don't drone freely, get up enough sairs / goons to protect hts from getting snipped by mutas and hydras, come out with a mid-game push that either ends the game or you trade as efficiently as you can and retreat to the 3rd and 4rd you made while you pushed out and transition into late game. PvZ is hard, but the theory behind modern PvZ is similar to the theory of modern TvP, just more complicated imo. Terrans get their nat up as quick and safely as they can, scout and respond to whatever P is doing, get vultures on the map / pressure with early mini-pushes to keep Protoss in check to make sure they don't get away with too quick a third or tech, go up to 5-6 fact, and move out with a large mid-game army to either kill Protoss or they take their 3rd / 4th behind it if they don't think they can kill Protoss and transition into late game. Very similar to how PvZ is supposed to be played now a days. Every loss SnOw just had (except for game 1) was extremely deserved. He missed storms, took bad fights, made bad decisions, and lost as a result in every one of those. PvZ is imba, I do agree with it, but it's not by as much as you think it is and those builds to try and "avoid the early game wrinkles" are just generally bad. You gotta look at it like Terrans look at TvP. It's literally the same concepts but in an entirely different MU. Scout and stop the bullshit while keeping them in check, consolidate your army into a strong mid-game push, expand behind the push and pull back if you can't kill (this is extremely simplified obviously). | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1556 Posts
SnOw's style is a good demonstration of a standard p v z indeed, the problem with that safe and square gameplay is that you will most likely never win vs a better opponent than you. At some point you gotta be more creative to create surprise, I don't think SK at any point got caught off guard aside of that late dt on dominator but who wouldn't considering the context? I would be way more scared of playing Mini who has a better mind game and is way more sneaky coze I would be constantly thinking that danger can come from anywhere at anytime. That's a better example of a good pvz imo, but you need to be a bit gifted to play like that I believe. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19235 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
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TMNT
2706 Posts
On May 14 2025 06:03 Rainalcar wrote: When was the last P won a pvz bo7? Or bo5? Did you just forget Best beating Quen 4-3 just a week ago haha. Aside from that it's not as rare as you may think: Rain 3-2 Soulkey and Rain 4-2 Soma in ASL13. Best 3-1 Action ASL15. Mini 4-0 Effort ASL16. But honestly Effort and Action are not tier 1 so understandable. Rain's run during that ASL was outstanding though, but back then Soulkey wasn't as good as he is now. ASL 17 18 19 are all Soulkey so no one's beating him. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
Well, at least we saw games 2-5, those were fantastic. Lets hope Best will not die to all those early game shenanigans but I do have a bad feeling about this. Imho Snow is much better at defending these than Best so we might be in for a quick 4-0 or 4-1. : / On May 13 2025 22:47 RowdierBob wrote: It was impressive how well SK reacted to that cannon rush. He must’ve seen it before because a Zerg would prob not send that many drones to defend unless they knew more probes were coming. If he sends only 5-6 drones then those cannons get up and snow gets way ahead in the game. Why not? He can immediately start mining there after defending... On May 14 2025 02:19 mOnion wrote: It’s not trying to get a cheap win by cannon rushing or 2 gate, it’s trying to get an early advantage in any capacity in a matchup where Zerg dictates the entire game from start to finish. Otherwise you’re forced like Snow was to mine out on two base, push out without obs to get on the map for the first time all game, and pray you win engages. Standard PvZ is letting Zergs do whatever they want while you sit on two base blind. It’s perfectly reasonable for pros to try and avoid that with early game wrinkles. It speaks more to the matchup than anything that Snow was so desperate he tried a horrific cannon rush game 7. He was desperate to coin flip the imbalance away This is not true. You forgot the game where Snow went center 9/9 gate, didn't kill a single drone and transitioned out of it. Also, in the game with the 5 pool, Soulkey killed enough probes to have an almost even worker count (Snow was 2 ahead or so maybe). Of course you can transition out of that if you do that much damage. Imho standard PvZ is a bad way to go about the matchup because you let zerg dictate the game. The best PvZers (Bisu and Mini) would always try to never let up with the pressure to keep dictating the game. I think this is the key to this match up for protoss. Not saying that doesn't make it unbalanced. ZvP is still favouring zerg, mostly because it's so hard for protoss to scout until midgame and the zerg early to mid units are incredibly potent in the match up. But I do think there is an option for protoss to enhance their chances at winning between one base all in and sitting on your ass until 9 gates are online. | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
On May 14 2025 02:46 G5 wrote: Every loss SnOw just had (except for game 1) was extremely deserved. He missed storms, took bad fights, made bad decisions, and lost as a result in every one of those. PvZ is imba, I do agree with it, but it's not by as much as you think it is and those builds to try and "avoid the early game wrinkles" are just generally bad. You gotta look at it like Terrans look at TvP. It's literally the same concepts but in an entirely different MU. Scout and stop the bullshit while keeping them in check, consolidate your army into a strong mid-game push, expand behind the push and pull back if you can't kill (this is extremely simplified obviously). Are you kidding me? How can the loss on Death Valley be deserved, let alone extremely deserved? First of all he managed the impossible of glitching the probe through TWO drones to save himself from the immediate loss. But while in a normal map he would have won, here he still lost probes, got locked out of the right side of the map, took ages to start his natural again (and lost a forge and a pylon), while Zerg could freely build Hatch and drone up to compensate for the early economic sacrifce without any fear of ever being attacked on all those bases. In fact Soulkey got overcompensated so much that he got far ahead and can play from a leading position. Plus he had both economic advantage AND map advantage (never had to defend right sided bases, while Snow had to pour resources into defending on that side), Technically it's not a free win (a free win would be the hydra bust on Arkanoid) as the Zerg still has to work hard for it, but if you offer any pro that kind of free lead, they would bite your hand off, because at this level and especially when the two players are around the same skill level, they never drop that kind of lead. There's a reason pros boycotted this map immediately after its release (they didn't even boycott Monty Hall - which is another dogshit map - that fast). | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7801 Posts
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Lazyer
United States342 Posts
Really rootin for the underdog as usual! Legend of the ... *checks notes*... spring??? | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
On May 14 2025 02:46 G5 wrote: IMO standard PvZ is to get your nexus up as soon as you safely can, scout with a sair, and respond to what Zerg is doing, all while pressuring with Zealots to force lings so they don't drone freely, get up enough sairs / goons to protect hts from getting snipped by mutas and hydras, come out with a mid-game push that either ends the game or you trade as efficiently as you can and retreat to the 3rd and 4rd you made while you pushed out and transition into late game. PvZ is hard, but the theory behind modern PvZ is similar to the theory of modern TvP, just more complicated imo. Terrans get their nat up as quick and safely as they can, scout and respond to whatever P is doing, get vultures on the map / pressure with early mini-pushes to keep Protoss in check to make sure they don't get away with too quick a third or tech, go up to 5-6 fact, and move out with a large mid-game army to either kill Protoss or they take their 3rd / 4th behind it if they don't think they can kill Protoss and transition into late game. Very similar to how PvZ is supposed to be played now a days. Every loss SnOw just had (except for game 1) was extremely deserved. He missed storms, took bad fights, made bad decisions, and lost as a result in every one of those. PvZ is imba, I do agree with it, but it's not by as much as you think it is and those builds to try and "avoid the early game wrinkles" are just generally bad. You gotta look at it like Terrans look at TvP. It's literally the same concepts but in an entirely different MU. Scout and stop the bullshit while keeping them in check, consolidate your army into a strong mid-game push, expand behind the push and pull back if you can't kill (this is extremely simplified obviously). Snow suffered a bit from his predictability with his stargate first builds. The scouting is important but it also let SK pull off flawless openers that allowed him a quick 4th and much drone whoring. Where Best did really well vs Queen I think was shifting to citadel first plays (esp in games 6 and 7 I think from memory). He got +1 zeals out a lot faster and disrupted Queen’s mindless macroing. I get it leaves you open to mutas and means you’re playing a bit more blind but I hope Best at least comes with some plans to disrupt SK’s flow. | ||
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Highways
Australia6103 Posts
Zerg can have disadvataged openers and still get the game to neutral. Whereas Protoss one mistake and the game is gone | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey727 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On May 14 2025 06:23 TMNT wrote: Did you just forget Best beating Quen 4-3 just a week ago haha. Aside from that it's not as rare as you may think: Rain 3-2 Soulkey and Rain 4-2 Soma in ASL13. Best 3-1 Action ASL15. Mini 4-0 Effort ASL16. But honestly Effort and Action are not tier 1 so understandable. Rain's run during that ASL was outstanding though, but back then Soulkey wasn't as good as he is now. ASL 17 18 19 are all Soulkey so no one's beating him. I know, I know, I was joking :D I still hate pvz though, the match up is pure pain for P | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
On May 14 2025 06:52 Miragee wrote: This is not true. You forgot the game where Snow went center 9/9 gate, didn't kill a single drone and transitioned out of it. Also, in the game with the 5 pool, Soulkey killed enough probes to have an almost even worker count (Snow was 2 ahead or so maybe). Of course you can transition out of that if you do that much damage You are totally wrong on this point. In fact the game state in both those games was the opposite of what you think. The 9 9 Gate game Snow didn't have to kill drones to be ahead. He just had to force lings. Soulkey had 7 drones at 9 minutes ffs. It was negated by the fact that Snow didn't have an expansion as well but Snow was surely ahead after that opening. That's why Soulkey had to turtle so hard later (he built tons of sunken at every base) and was even behind Snow in number of bases. His strategy was to turtle up on 4 bases and max out with Defiler to usurp the game from there, and it almost worked. It was actually Soulkey who had to transition out of a bad opening. And the 5 Pool game Soulkey didn't kill enough probes (he killed like 2 or something).In every standard map, holding a 4/5 Pool = Zerg taps out, because the economic losses is just too big for Zerg. What allowed him to transition out of it is the map. By killing the gas he had that side of the map for himself and was able to build Hatch and drones without building a single ling. Nothing is scarier than Zerg being able to do that. That's why in the map Monty Hall where Zerg is allowed to do that, the ZvP win rate is 80%. Soulkey was behind for like 1 minute because of the 5 Pool choice, then automatically got ahead just because of the map feature. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
I will also say Soulkey's victory was 100% on Snow to prevent. He had two games in a row to get the big W but he just completely forgot how winning works. Soulkey persisted while Snow ran out of steam. Fully deserved victory for Soulkey in spite of an imbalanced map. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
72 Posts
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namkraft
449 Posts
I'm thinking the only way to play on this map as protoss is to go 1 gate (in your main) & no gas, then blindly expand into the base behind the 3 minerals. If Zerg tries early zergling aggression, Protoss can try to block the 2 extractor door with 1/2 zealots and some probes. Then eventually seal himself in. With the gate shut, Protoss is not in a bad position if he can survive until the late game. The secret I think is to expand towards the left lane and use reavers. U see the left lane has more bases than the right lane. To win late game, Soulkey needs to take some of the left lane bases and that will put him in direct conflict with Snow's closely knitted armies and bases. For a defensive posture, Snow should add some reavers and not just HT. If Soulkey tries to take a hatchery on the left lane, Snow's job is just to shut it down then retreat to his bases, covered with reavers and HTs. In this specific set up, Zerg doesn't enjoy the mobility that he often enjoys in late-game on a normal map (like a 4-player map). Their late game advantage of defilers is better countered with reavers than HT. Snow's natural at 1 o clock can be taken by Zerg, but realistically speaking he can never mine it with dragoons and HTs on the high ground. With even number of bases between P & Z, Zerg will eventually tap out. | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
Imagine giving Snow a free 12 Nexus cross spawn opening against Terrans regular Factory expand, you wouldn't even bet on Flash to turn the game around. It's that kind of advantage for Soulkey on Death Valley. | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
On May 14 2025 17:48 namkraft wrote: With even number of bases between P & Z, Zerg will eventually tap out. This is not even true though. Soulkey already demonstrated in game 3 that Zerg even on LESS bases than Protoss, can still win. The power of Defiler + maxed out Zerg is enough to usurp any kind of economic advantage the Protoss holds. 200 vs 200, the Zerg has every chance to win the fight, and without a standing army it doesn't matter how many bases Protoss has because one orange cloud is all it takes to take down 1 base. That is the second problem of the matchup after the early scouting problem. Although the late game army mobility is similar to PvT, the dynamics in army power is nowhere near similar. Protoss can't take the fight head-on vs Terran in the late game, but the Zerg can vs Protoss. | ||
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femtehjulet
17 Posts
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Ideas
United States8098 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On May 14 2025 20:51 Ideas wrote: I feel like I see so many fewer storm drops nowadays compared to a few years ago. Is it considered too risky/not worth it in late games nowadays? Or is the level of multitasking by pros not up for it any more? Snow never did any sort of drop harass all series (unless im forgetting something). pre-mastered/pre covid bisu is the only one who can really play that multitask style regardless of the efficacy (and i dare say it can be really efficient watching those older games storming tons of drones) it was much better to watch than the standard deathballing fest u see nowadays. and dont give map excuse bisu is doing it on bog boring FS of all maps yea i see virtually 0 drop harass in any lategame pvz these days its just ridiculous, but thats too much to expect from older gen of players besides sticking to standard play and deathballing. honestly i don't see much revolution in pvz gameplay besides playing more sparkle esque maps, revolution is not gonna come without competitive 16 year olds to push the mechanics of the game further than the boomers. | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
Probably more to do with optimisation these days. Like in every PvZ now I hear people screaming about making a Dark Archon as if it never occurs to the players who are 100x better than them. It's just not optimised. If anything players these days are doing more, not less. Ten years ago PvT was all about making Arbiters and running around with the 1a2a3a army. Now you have to do Shuttle Reaver micro and handle multiple Shuttles with HTs in the late game. The latter style is obviously more mechanically demanding. Ironically it is only Bisu who can't play that style effectively out of all the current Protosses. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On May 14 2025 22:21 Magic Powers wrote: Until about five years ago I would've agreed that players aren't as fast anymore, but nowadays they're all over the place. It's hard to keep up with them in first person vods. i disagree bisu fpv is more ridiculous in the past. just his decision making is sus sometimes. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands843 Posts
On May 14 2025 22:25 ggsimida wrote: i disagree bisu fpv is more ridiculous in the past. just his decision making is sus sometimes. Ive tracked player speed and everyone is faster with apm and eapm. but you can argue more apm and eapm can eat mental bandwidth and cause players have worse multitasking. soulkey specifically plays a bit slower with apm in order to have more oversight! | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On May 14 2025 22:28 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Ive tracked player speed and everyone is faster with apm and eapm. but you can argue more apm and eapm can eat mental bandwidth and cause players have worse multitasking. soulkey specifically plays a bit slower with apm in order to have more oversight! im only talking about bisu not others..yes multitasking isnt just apm is that not obvious already. or do you think we like to watch a 500 apm B rank player? | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2922 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On May 14 2025 22:36 Smorrie wrote: I think modern use and implementation of mutas in ZvP gives less opportunities for storm drops to make sense as part of the go-to toolkit. of course mutas are OP when u have dohsairs on the other side. every protoss is dohsair-ing them nowadays why is old school bisu is so revered to begin with hmmm do u protect your corsairs? | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
On May 14 2025 17:48 namkraft wrote: Just imagine you don't have Death Valley in the map pool. It's a free win for zerg. I'm thinking the only way to play on this map as protoss is to go 1 gate (in your main) & no gas, then blindly expand into the base behind the 3 minerals. If Zerg tries early zergling aggression, Protoss can try to block the 2 extractor door with 1/2 zealots and some probes. Then eventually seal himself in. With the gate shut, Protoss is not in a bad position if he can survive until the late game. The secret I think is to expand towards the left lane and use reavers. U see the left lane has more bases than the right lane. To win late game, Soulkey needs to take some of the left lane bases and that will put him in direct conflict with Snow's closely knitted armies and bases. For a defensive posture, Snow should add some reavers and not just HT. If Soulkey tries to take a hatchery on the left lane, Snow's job is just to shut it down then retreat to his bases, covered with reavers and HTs. In this specific set up, Zerg doesn't enjoy the mobility that he often enjoys in late-game on a normal map (like a 4-player map). Their late game advantage of defilers is better countered with reavers than HT. Snow's natural at 1 o clock can be taken by Zerg, but realistically speaking he can never mine it with dragoons and HTs on the high ground. With even number of bases between P & Z, Zerg will eventually tap out. I also support this. Ts and Zs often get maps that are really favoring them, while I can't remember when was the last time it happened for Protoss. Usually island/semi islands are like that for Protoss, but the race doesn't deserve such luxury I guess. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On May 14 2025 14:56 TMNT wrote: You are totally wrong on this point. In fact the game state in both those games was the opposite of what you think. The 9 9 Gate game Snow didn't have to kill drones to be ahead. He just had to force lings. Soulkey had 7 drones at 9 minutes ffs. It was negated by the fact that Snow didn't have an expansion as well but Snow was surely ahead after that opening. That's why Soulkey had to turtle so hard later (he built tons of sunken at every base) and was even behind Snow in number of bases. His strategy was to turtle up on 4 bases and max out with Defiler to usurp the game from there, and it almost worked. It was actually Soulkey who had to transition out of a bad opening. And the 5 Pool game Soulkey didn't kill enough probes (he killed like 2 or something).In every standard map, holding a 4/5 Pool = Zerg taps out, because the economic losses is just too big for Zerg. What allowed him to transition out of it is the map. By killing the gas he had that side of the map for himself and was able to build Hatch and drones without building a single ling. Nothing is scarier than Zerg being able to do that. That's why in the map Monty Hall where Zerg is allowed to do that, the ZvP win rate is 80%. Soulkey was behind for like 1 minute because of the 5 Pool choice, then automatically got ahead just because of the map feature. I just respond to the 5 pool game because I don't think I stated my view of the game state of the 9/9 gate anywhere. My remark was just a polemic rebuttal to the previous point. Regarding the the 5 pool game you are correct and I need to revise my statement a bit. Soulkey killed 3 probes. However, he only build 8 lings and went immediately into droning. So when the cannon finished up, Snow was mining with 13 probes and Soulkey with 8 drones. This is not you standard 5 pool game because in a standard 5 pool game, the zerg would sit at home with 5 drones at that point. Soulkey was also able to get another pylon and the forge with his initial lings (this would have happened on any map). At this point I think Snow had a pretty good lead but it was not the kind of lead you usually have in a 5 pool game. The rest I fully agree with you on. The map basically gifted Soulkey 2 free bases and at least 5 minutes of drone up time without pressure opportunity, which is just stupid. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10702 Posts
I mean, even the few lurkers Snow made seemed to at least recoup their cost and would have relieved some pressure (offense is a different story)? Anyway awesome series . | ||
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Artas1984
Lithuania119 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On May 14 2025 06:52 Miragee wrote: The 9 9 Gate game Snow didn't have to kill drones to be ahead. He just had to force lings. Soulkey had 7 drones at 9 minutes ffs. It was negated by the fact that Snow didn't have an expansion as well but Snow was surely ahead after that opening. Soulkey also wasn't forced to keep massing lings once he got the sunken up ~4:50. At that point he's stable and can start adding drones (not pure drones but some drones), and his economy would quickly pass Snow's since he's got more patches to mine. Instead he tried to kill Snow, failed, and belatedly transitioned after he was firmly behind. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1023 Posts
On May 15 2025 08:49 Severedevil wrote: Soulkey also wasn't forced to keep massing lings once he got the sunken up ~4:50. At that point he's stable and can start adding drones (not pure drones but some drones), and his economy would quickly pass Snow's since he's got more patches to mine. Instead he tried to kill Snow, failed, and belatedly transitioned after he was firmly behind. then, no 3rd and map control though. | ||
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QRCode
United States36 Posts
On May 14 2025 02:46 G5 wrote: PvZ is hard, but the theory behind modern PvZ is similar to the theory of modern TvP, just more complicated imo. Terrans get their nat up as quick and safely as they can, scout and respond to whatever P is doing, get vultures on the map / pressure with early mini-pushes to keep Protoss in check to make sure they don't get away with too quick a third or tech, go up to 5-6 fact, and move out with a large mid-game army to either kill Protoss or they take their 3rd / 4th behind it if they don't think they can kill Protoss and transition into late game. Very similar to how PvZ is supposed to be played now a days. I agree. Zealots are being used like vultures. Dragoons are being used like tanks. It's a change in the Korean playstyle I noticed some time ago, when Flash returned. I wonder if he had played more Protoss during his absence and developed an idea for it, inspiring the Protoss players in some way. Right now, wacky builds with all-in senses are the trend. Sort of like 2 fact base pushes with Terran. With good micro, the timings come with just a little extra oomph to do damage to get ahead. Scouting with corsair has always been a problem in that it costs too much. It's the cost of getting legs, basically, AND 2 psi. It's just better to get legs (and you'll get it earlier) and maintain zealot pressure around the map, and dictate the pace of the game and get some control over Zerg's tech that way. But playing like this requires so much skill, tactical skill. And no one is storm dropping regularly and I think this is an essential tool that is missing out. Imagine vultures that could not raid! Much less annoying units, and a real advantage for someone. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3440 Posts
On May 15 2025 15:00 Magic Powers wrote: There are very good reasons why we don't see storm drops in PvZ very much. Trust me when I say that, when the best pros do or don't do something over the course of many games, they're generally right. Did they mention why thus far? I’m noticing less/none late game econ storm drop in v Z too, but haven’t put much thought into it. | ||
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G5
United States2898 Posts
On May 14 2025 07:07 TMNT wrote: Are you kidding me? How can the loss on Death Valley be deserved, let alone extremely deserved? First of all he managed the impossible of glitching the probe through TWO drones to save himself from the immediate loss. But while in a normal map he would have won, here he still lost probes, got locked out of the right side of the map, took ages to start his natural again (and lost a forge and a pylon), while Zerg could freely build Hatch and drone up to compensate for the early economic sacrifce without any fear of ever being attacked on all those bases. In fact Soulkey got overcompensated so much that he got far ahead and can play from a leading position. Plus he had both economic advantage AND map advantage (never had to defend right sided bases, while Snow had to pour resources into defending on that side), Technically it's not a free win (a free win would be the hydra bust on Arkanoid) as the Zerg still has to work hard for it, but if you offer any pro that kind of free lead, they would bite your hand off, because at this level and especially when the two players are around the same skill level, they never drop that kind of lead. There's a reason pros boycotted this map immediately after its release (they didn't even boycott Monty Hall - which is another dogshit map - that fast). SoulKey sacrificed eco early, SnOw held, SoulKey then turned it into legitimately a semi-island map (Protoss is the best race in these scenarios by the way) and SoulKey outplayed SnOw from there. SoulKey also did have to defend the right side of the map a bit and did so well. As I said, SnOw deserved the loss. He was in a fine position and misplayed it. You can have your opinion and I respect it but that is mine. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland560 Posts
On May 14 2025 02:46 G5 wrote: SoulKey sacrificed eco early, SnOw held, SoulKey then turned it into legitimately a semi-island map (Protoss is the best race in these scenarios by the way) and SoulKey outplayed SnOw from there. SoulKey turned it into 1-sided semi-island map: Snow was playing it, Soulkey had a normal map. Snow is to be blamed for his build choice. Probably all he practised for his games was forge opener, and that just wasn't a good choice for Death Valley. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2270 Posts
he was gonna lose anyway due to the nature of the match up ... 4-3 or 5-1 doest matter, bo5+++ vs zerg at equal skill, , protoss is never winning... bo1 mb bo3 mb bo5 nope bo7 rofl gtfo | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary292 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3440 Posts
On May 15 2025 17:14 XenOsky wrote: is there really a protoss player that actually thought that snow had a chance to win the series? he was gonna lose anyway due to the nature of the match up ... 4-3 or 5-1 doest matter, bo5+++ vs zerg at equal skill, , protoss is never winning... bo1 mb bo3 mb bo5 nope bo7 rofl gtfo But Snow went up 3-2 so if it was bo5 with the same set of 5 maps, he would’ve won? | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2270 Posts
On May 15 2025 17:25 vndestiny wrote: But Snow went up 3-2 so if it was bo5 with the same set of 5 maps, he would’ve won? results oriented... z is in a favorable position in bo5 or bo7, if this series was bo5 maps order wouldave changed and soulkey prolly wins in some other fashion... the timeline changes completly from start to finish if bo5 instead of bo7, i belive that in any case SK wins, if not, that result is a fluke, like bisu was...+ Show Spoiler + like winning KK vs AA or like fliping a coin and having 10 tails in a row... or like fucking winning a bo7 vs zerg as protoss in a major bw tournament... also if bo5 less room for mistakes for z, so less likely to choose super aggro gambly shit, style that btw gives toss a fighting chance if defence is on point... SK is prolly bonjwa right now, so he deserves to win everything, but that doest change the fact that z>p so hard that makes the match up not even fun to watch or play... + Show Spoiler + season after season i just know that THE BEST PROTOSS is going to lose vs zerg deep in the tournament... i just dont know HOW is going to happen... ..fuck, im sick of that narrative, boring as fuck, is like knowing that the home team in futbol will always win deep in a CUP, you just dont know the score... patch the fucking match up already and let us move on to a really competitive state of pvz where the BEST PROTOSS OF THE WORLD has a chance to win vs zerg in long series... u dont even have to touch the other matchs , just give some + armer vs hidra, or gasless detection, idk man, just do something cause i remember toss lossing to zerg like this since like JulyZerg prime... lil too long imo | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
On May 15 2025 15:45 G5 wrote: SoulKey sacrificed eco early, SnOw held, SoulKey then turned it into legitimately a semi-island map (Protoss is the best race in these scenarios by the way) and SoulKey outplayed SnOw from there. SoulKey also did have to defend the right side of the map a bit and did so well. As I said, SnOw deserved the loss. He was in a fine position and misplayed it. You can have your opinion and I respect it but that is mine. I feel like you being stuck in the mindset of "Protoss tends to do well on island maps" makes you misread the game state at that point. Firstly (like Bonyth said), only Snow had to play the semi island map. Soulkey just had a normal map with two entrances and two lanes, sort of like Monty Hall. Secondly, the concept of Protoss doing well on island map, be it true or not, can't be simply over-generalized to any map with island features. It's only true when both players have to start on an island with only 1 base. Other than that you have to look at it case by case, matchup by matchup. For example : - Neo Arkanoid: it's a semi island map which later can be turned into a (sort of) normal map, but you start with 3 bases in your quadrant, so it's no issue for Z. In fact this map is a free win for Z if they go Hydra bust because Protoss can't defend 3 entrances at the same time. - 76: it's no issue for Zerg because small units can fit through the ramp - Monty Hall: this map is a massive graveyard for P in PvZ because the semi island feature on this map denies the potential pressure for Protoss in early game, allowing Zerg to freely drone up. All those 3 maps are massively Zerg favored. Now back to Death Valley, Soulkey essentially turned it into Monty Hall with 2 lanes for him BUT Snow could only play on 1 lane. It's true that Soulkey had to defend the right side "a bit" but it is the easiest defence for Z since P can only slip 1 zealot through at a time with a terrible success rate, and in some cases the probe slips through as well, effectively donating it to Z. Snow attempt to glitch zealots out probably did him more harm than good actually. So, droning up nonstop and free 3 bases which will never be threatened. What more could Zerg as for in ZvP lol? | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
Interesting that Best also picked Death Valley for the finals, so he must have some plan maybe. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
On May 15 2025 15:31 vndestiny wrote: Did they mention why thus far? I’m noticing less/none late game econ storm drop in v Z too, but haven’t put much thought into it. I don't know. If I had to guess it's because shuttles are too slow, and the speed upgrade requires additional resources and time. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2270 Posts
On May 15 2025 18:28 Magic Powers wrote: I don't know. If I had to guess it's because shuttles are too slow, and the speed upgrade requires additional resources and time. have you ever played a pvz so intense that in your mind you are thinking "i need to kill some drones, i need to drop" but you just cant find the time/resources to do it? i guess that situation comes up a lot in a semi finals of ASL... | ||
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Sabu113
United States11047 Posts
Bleh. He just played some insanity though SK’s macro is wild. Map makers need to do some work for pvz though. Feels so rough in big box Edit Snow probably put up the best straight play pvz we’ll see. Handled going late better than I have ever seen toss tbh. Mostly when it goes super late they get ground down. Mini is still the god of the matchup for toss. Frustrating because snow was just beautiful today. | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
On May 15 2025 17:14 XenOsky wrote: is there really a protoss player that actually thought that snow had a chance to win the series? he was gonna lose anyway due to the nature of the match up ... 4-3 or 5-1 doest matter, bo5+++ vs zerg at equal skill, , protoss is never winning... bo1 mb bo3 mb bo5 nope bo7 rofl gtfo See I'm also a "PvZ whiner" but P can beat Z and Snow can beat Soulkey in a Bo5/7/9, as he actually did a few times in online series vs Soulkey this year. In fact, the last game had he not gone full Mini and just played it out normally, or tried something like a blind 12 Nexus (would have worked, since Soulkey wasn't doing 9 pool and it was cross spawn), he would have a good chance to win. And although I'm a "PvZ whiner", my complaints have never been result-based, but always gameplay-based. Actually the game that I have the most issue with (regarding balance) in this series is the game that Snow won on Dominator. It's just absurd that Zerg with 7 drones at 9th minutes, and 1 base less than Protoss in the late game, can almost beat the shit out of the P. If not for Zeratul single-handedly killing whole mineral line, Snow would have lost. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands843 Posts
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TMNT
2706 Posts
So Soulkey did gamble here and now that I think of it, there's no way Snow and JD during their practice wouldn't think about that, but they probably thought Soulkey wouldn't make that gamble. So mind game vs mind game here. | ||
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QRCode
United States36 Posts
On May 15 2025 18:28 Magic Powers wrote: I don't know. If I had to guess it's because shuttles are too slow, and the speed upgrade requires additional resources and time. It's hard to get two lines of tech running on 2 bases when you have to commit basically everything you have in keeping up a constant offense. Then having to manage multiple attacks, it's too much for some pros I think. In some situations it supplements an attack greatly and I think those are the best moments. Raw storm drops are too risky, and you win by being consistent. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
Letting lings into main is not a guarantee. It is entirely possible to start a cannon earlier, and pull probes from main and block at natural. What made it tricky was the drone block...even if the probe got in, it was late, so by that time even cannon in main resulted in some losses. Now, Snow could also get a cannon when seeing blocked passage and be completely safe...but SK had a game in ASL previously(if I am not misremembering players) where he blocked a ramp with a drone on a map with a backdoor expansion, and went for 3 hatch before pool, while the opponent blindly got cannons. So there was a mindgame component to it. But maybe there is a world where Snow starts a blind cannon when blocked on ramp, with intention to maybe cancel it after glitching the probe in, or smth like that. That being said, yeah, these maps are ass. | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada119 Posts
Dude has the second highest PvZ winrate in ASL iirc | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3575 Posts
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TMNT
2706 Posts
On May 16 2025 05:03 Soulforged wrote: Regarding 4/5 pool, it isn't _that_ much of an auto win on that map vs forge. Letting lings into main is not a guarantee. It is entirely possible to start a cannon earlier, and pull probes from main and block at natural. What made it tricky was the drone block...even if the probe got in, it was late, so by that time even cannon in main resulted in some losses. Now, Snow could also get a cannon when seeing blocked passage and be completely safe...but SK had a game in ASL previously(if I am not misremembering players) where he blocked a ramp with a drone on a map with a backdoor expansion, and went for 3 hatch before pool, while the opponent blindly got cannons. So there was a mindgame component to it. But maybe there is a world where Snow starts a blind cannon when blocked on ramp, with intention to maybe cancel it after glitching the probe in, or smth like that. That being said, yeah, these maps are ass. Bro, you might want to recheck the timings related to 4/5 Pool. By the time the probe got in Soulkey's base, which it wasn't supposed to anyway, the Forge hadn't even started. Can't get a blind cannon if you don't have a forge. Cannon in main is like the Bible response to 5 Pool vs FFE. The response you described just doesn't exist in BW, at least at their level. I guess the reason is (a) you can't block 6 lings with just probes and no area to drill, (b) the lings can just run to the main and you'll have a cannon at natural while tying gg. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2270 Posts
history is with me in this one... mb snow can beat sk in some online not so huge event. but hes most likely lossing in the biggest stage where preparation and mindgames play a much bigger role. | ||
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Comedy
456 Posts
On May 15 2025 18:48 Sabu113 wrote: Snow did his fans so proud Bleh. He just played some insanity though SK’s macro is wild. Map makers need to do some work for pvz though. Feels so rough in big box Edit Snow probably put up the best straight play pvz we’ll see. Handled going late better than I have ever seen toss tbh. Mostly when it goes super late they get ground down. Mini is still the god of the matchup for toss. Frustrating because snow was just beautiful today. snow completely fumbled game 1 and would have won the series if he didn't fuck up his wall. he also played vs 9 hatch 9 pool which is a direct counter to 2 gate. and still won the game. the only reason snow loses is that he is so much weaker at performing under pressure than soulkey. not cause of maps. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria370 Posts
Also, Hydra good unit. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
Bro, you might want to recheck the timings related to 4/5 Pool. By the time the probe got in Soulkey's base, which it wasn't supposed to anyway, the Forge hadn't even started. Can't get a blind cannon if you don't have a forge. An actual 150 mineral available non probe cut forge, is going to roll 4/5 pool with cannon being done before the lings even reach there. Now, nobody does that unless they face someone they know 5 pool a lot, but it is in realm of possibility. There's many reasons why P's delay the forge start, this has more to do with checking 1st scouting location main first before committing to send a 2nd probe to the natural, or double probe scout timing alignment(with 2nd probe scout starting forge and then reaching last location's natural at 1:55 to block overpool hatch placement). Not all of those reasons apply to 2 player maps, and mostly delay is for greed purposes / as late as you can make it and still live vs 9pool. Precisely because on a standard map a main cannon can still deal with 5pool. And 5 pool is very rare, so P's default on the as greedy as they can get away vs 9pool forge timing. TLDR, if there is a probe ready to start forge the second that a scout sees a blocked ramp(nevermind having 150), the option to never let the lings into main is very much exists. Snow starts forge with 250 minerals at 12/17(likely with a probe queued on top of that). That's the "defend 9 pool" forge timing. Forge is possible with no probe cuts at 10/17(that'd be the timing of "cannon is done when 5pool lings get there). There's good 20 seconds between these two extremes. A middle ground exists, where a probe pull to block natural with probe losses can still secure the nat. Snow starts to send probe to natural, with his 10th probe once it finished(so 11/17 it starts to move to nat); he sees the blocked ramp about same time...that is the standard timing. If he recognized that you cannot let 5 pool in your main on this map with a forge opener, and sent a probe there one probe round earlier, he'd: - lose out on something like 16-24 minerals vs overpool/hatch first if there is no ramp block. With ramp block, may have to start forge blindly. - have no difference vs 9 pool(start forge/go back to mining, sooner or later doesn't matter), - ez win vs 5 pool. Hope I got my point across this time. I'm mostly responding to statements that a forge opener on this map is an auto loss. This type of map design can force P to make extra early game concessions which are ass, but auto loss they are not. It is, however, on Snow that he didn't consider risks of standard delayed forge timings vs 5 pool on that map. | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
On May 16 2025 23:42 Soulforged wrote: Hope I got my point across this time. I'm mostly responding to statements that a forge opener on this map is an auto loss. This type of map design can force P to make extra early game concessions which are ass, but auto loss they are not. It is, however, on Snow that he didn't consider risks of standard delayed forge timings vs 5 pool on that map. No I am aware you can start the forge sooner too but the question is why would you? It's not like you go into the game with the mindset that I have to blind counter a 5 pool. And even if you do so you would look like a mug if later you find out the Zerg goes for a 3 Hatch before pool lol. So the correct mindset is you just carry on with your standard openings. It's basically just like 3 Hatch Hydra too. Protoss can always build extra cannons blindly so that they wouldn't auto loss to the bust, but why would they? Overall it goes back to the point that Zerg is just allowed to dictate the game too much in this matchup. Protoss is always at a state of "if I preemptively block A, I however may get screwed by B" | ||
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Tanzklaue
Germany1413 Posts
The most common Soulkey series are close fought 3-2 and 4-3/4-2 series. He is incredible, but certainly not invincible. And to suggest that beating him is a matter of luck is insulting to him and all of starcraft as a whole. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
But you aren't wrong, e.g. TvP definitely has more options in that regard. Better recovery from an economic deficit, bunkers and turrets build very fast, can do stuff like build an e-bay and leave it at 90% and maybe cancel based on scouting, reactive wall-ins vs non-drop DT shimmers, mine positioning, repair and similar. P meanwhile has "I start extra cannon when sair finishes and cancel it when not needed" / "cancel cannons when drones hatch vs 3hh", battery holds vs mass lings, and a proactive opener of gate FE that still has difficulty dealing with 9pool or pressuring 11(and earlier) hatch. Maybe one day we'll see maps designed around easier cannon rushes(side hatchery or not), and ways to mineral walk probes into Z main from a completely different angle, or something along those lines. Maybe not. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
72 Posts
look at top 4 asl this season: 2 protoss look at elo board top 10: 4 protoss last week sponsor match snow mini vs speed rush: terran lost 1:8 wasn't even funny about death valley pvz: best and snow chose it in asl quarter/semifinals, it was their map pick. and best apparently chose it again for the finals, go tell him he is wrong | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6579 Posts
On May 16 2025 12:13 XenOsky wrote: ofc snow can beat soulkey in a BoX series, but not in the finals rounds of a premier tournament BoX series... history is with me in this one... mb snow can beat sk in some online not so huge event. but hes most likely lossing in the biggest stage where preparation and mindgames play a much bigger role. What you describe is a player having no ice to clutch in under pressure situations. Like Jordan . Or A player kicking a Penalty. Or Soulkey being down 0-3 vs Innovation in the GSL final and coming back. I mean they are those moments that require you to really put all emotions aside and just bring the best of you to get the win. Snow is the perfect example of this kind of player that just fail miserable under pressure. And is unlucky to face proly the most coldest progamer in a offline setup. I would argue that SK is way more strong offline than FlaSh that is considered god of Starcraft. I mean the guy doesnt know defeat in a Final. Gonna be time to show some apreciation to the guy and respect what he is doing cuz is not easy by any means. But hey if that just make you feel better good for you lol. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2270 Posts
On May 17 2025 06:51 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What you describe is a player having no ice to clutch in under pressure situations. Like Jordan . Or A player kicking a Penalty. Or Soulkey being down 0-3 vs Innovation in the GSL final and coming back. I mean they are those moments that require you to really put all emotions aside and just bring the best of you to get the win. Snow is the perfect example of this kind of player that just fail miserable under pressure. And is unlucky to face proly the most coldest progamer in a offline setup. I would argue that SK is way more strong offline than FlaSh that is considered god of Starcraft. I mean the guy doesnt know defeat in a Final. Gonna be time to show some apreciation to the guy and respect what he is doing cuz is not easy by any means. But hey if that just make you feel better good for you lol. 3 posts before that i said that SK is prolly bonjwa and he deserves to win everything... rofl besides that, at the very top level of anything, 3% edge is HUGE... that 3% is going to show in the final results if you extrapolate everything to an infinite number of games... so SK is most likely winning due to a 3%-5% edge over ANY protoss of EQUAL SKILL... different discussion is : is snow actually at the same skill level than SK??? we can't know for sure... but i think that he is... but he is most likely going to lose anyway due to the nature of the match up... thats all im saying... Snow doesnt have a 50-50 chance to win, he is an underdog... that is an historical fact... nothing to do with my appreciation of SK or his skillls... SK is the greatest zerg alive, and probably the best starcraft player in the world atm, that doesnt change the fact that when he faces protoss players, he has an edge that he didnt work for, he just happened to pick the right race to play vs protoss. to me this is not about SK vs Snow, is about Z vs P in a sample of over 20 years... i knew that snow was going to lose this series, and i know that best is going to lose the finals, and any protoss is going to lose in that situation (BoX vs #1 zerg), unless said protoss player drastically changes the meta, like bisu did. and that shit is not happening again. | ||
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goody153
44122 Posts
That's the kind of series I expected from two really hyped players and potentially the literal best players atm. Although wth was that 3rd base crossspawn canon rush snow lmao. That murdered him lol On May 17 2025 02:49 Tanzklaue wrote: I already feel sad for the guy who inevitably will beat Soulkey in an ASL one day, because everyone will just yell about how it was a fluke, since apparently vs Soulkey, skill doesn't matter, it's all just luck and chance. The most common Soulkey series are close fought 3-2 and 4-3/4-2 series. He is incredible, but certainly not invincible. And to suggest that beating him is a matter of luck is insulting to him and all of starcraft as a whole. It works the same for other esports. Anybody who beats the dominating player/team will always be told it is a fluke. Is soulkey the closest thing we have to a next flash assuming he wins vs best ? Although this series he is a little shaky but it could just be snow is also just stupid good at playing On May 17 2025 07:17 XenOsky wrote: 3 posts before that i said that SK is prolly bonjwa and he deserves to win everything... rofl besides that, at the very top level of anything, 3% edge is HUGE... that 3% is going to show in the final results if you extrapolate everything to an infinite number of games... so SK is most likely winning due to a 3%-5% edge over ANY protoss of EQUAL SKILL... different discussion is : is snow actually at the same skill level than SK??? we can't know for sure... but i think that he is... but he is most likely going to lose anyway due to the nature of the match up... thats all im saying... Snow doesnt have a 50-50 chance to win, he is an underdog... that is an historical fact... nothing to do with my appreciation of SK or his skillls... SK is the greatest zerg alive, and probably the best starcraft player in the world atm, that doesnt change the fact that when he faces protoss players, he has an edge that he didnt work for, he just happened to pick the right race to play vs protoss. to me this is not about SK vs Snow, is about Z vs P in a sample of over 20 years... i knew that snow was going to lose this series, and i know that best is going to lose the finals, and any protoss is going to lose in that situation (BoX vs #1 zerg), unless said protoss player drastically changes the meta, like bisu did. and that shit is not happening again. Another balance whine ? This place is turning into sc2 discussion boards. If you want a game with zero imbalance then dont play any multiplayer game like literally any cause there will be no completely equal multiplayer game ever. Just play single player forever there it doesnt matter if it is imbalanced or not. Also your argument is that if Soulkey won it is cause zerg imba and if Snow win cause he deserved it ? Complete nonsense especially considering Snow fucked up the last game Like do we start taking away wins from any protoss player away as a disguised balance whine ? LOL | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
On May 17 2025 03:13 Soft_General_5023 wrote: geez, what a bunch of protoss whiners, stork is proud of you guys look at top 4 asl this season: 2 protoss look at elo board top 10: 4 protoss last week sponsor match snow mini vs speed rush: terran lost 1:8 wasn't even funny about death valley pvz: best and snow chose it in asl quarter/semifinals, it was their map pick. and best apparently chose it again for the finals, go tell him he is wrong Result-based balance talk is only valid if we use large enough sample size. Over small series, you just need to look at the gameplay. Snow Mini vs Speed Rush always ought to be 6 3 or 7 2 due to the skill gap. Eloboard is very activity and opponent dependent and is not a good measure of balance. For example, if you filter for 2025, Sacscri is at no 14 and Hero at no 16. Doesn't make sense. I'll give you the map pick argument. Probably they have something up their sleeve but so far the Zergs have too and it hasn't worked out for P. | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
I'm thinking, maybe the reason Best and Snow both picked it is because the possibility of Hydra bust is limited on this map (Zerg won't place their 3rd Hatch on top right due to proximity to P, so they have to use the backdoor base, which means no Hydra bust) | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands843 Posts
On May 17 2025 14:30 TMNT wrote: Result-based balance talk is only valid if we use large enough sample size. Over small series, you just need to look at the gameplay. Snow Mini vs Speed Rush always ought to be 6 3 or 7 2 due to the skill gap. Eloboard is very activity and opponent dependent and is not a good measure of balance. For example, if you filter for 2025, Sacscri is at no 14 and Hero at no 16. Doesn't make sense. I'll give you the map pick argument. Probably they have something up their sleeve but so far the Zergs have too and it hasn't worked out for P. that snow mini vs speed rush is also largely snow beating them up. speed and rush genetally do well vs mini. speed was in fact at 70% winrate vs mini before it. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland560 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1556 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On May 17 2025 15:06 TMNT wrote: I wish we had more games on Death Valley to see how this map plays out on different scenarios. I think this is one of my biggest gripes with the more experimental maps. Maps are made and finished very close to the ASL season they are being used in. There is not a lot of time to amass games in practice to figure the map out. Of course this ignores the fact that players quickly veto the maps on ladder and never practice them anyways, which is also a huge issue. There is very little pressure on players to not do that since the maps are only kept for a single season and the map pool is large enough that players can skip them completely in the earlier rounds. But even if players had more of incentive to play those maps and figure them out, I feel like there is not enough time to establish a somewhat stable meta. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
72 Posts
On May 17 2025 14:30 TMNT wrote: Result-based balance talk is only valid if we use large enough sample size. Over small series, you just need to look at the gameplay. Snow Mini vs Speed Rush always ought to be 6 3 or 7 2 due to the skill gap. Eloboard is very activity and opponent dependent and is not a good measure of balance. For example, if you filter for 2025, Sacscri is at no 14 and Hero at no 16. Doesn't make sense. I'll give you the map pick argument. Probably they have something up their sleeve but so far the Zergs have too and it hasn't worked out for P. What i was trying to say TvP struggles more nowadays than PvZ in my opinion, with current meta and map pool. Might be because of Snow's outlier 90+ % pct winrate Hell even YSC and Shuttle are doing quite well vs terrans atm. New map pool comes around ASL end right? Let's see who is going to favor. Will we see some anti Snow maps? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands843 Posts
On May 17 2025 20:47 Miragee wrote: I think this is one of my biggest gripes with the more experimental maps. Maps are made and finished very close to the ASL season they are being used in. There is not a lot of time to amass games in practice to figure the map out. Of course this ignores the fact that players quickly veto the maps on ladder and never practice them anyways, which is also a huge issue. There is very little pressure on players to not do that since the maps are only kept for a single season and the map pool is large enough that players can skip them completely in the earlier rounds. But even if players had more of incentive to play those maps and figure them out, I feel like there is not enough time to establish a somewhat stable meta. issue with death valley specifically was that the first two versions were just so atrocious to the balance of the match-ups that players just didn't want to play it until those issues were fixed. They were soft fixed. Players did play it occasionally but not much. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On May 17 2025 23:54 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: issue with death valley specifically was that the first two versions were just so atrocious to the balance of the match-ups that players just didn't want to play it until those issues were fixed. They were soft fixed. Players did play it occasionally but not much. That's ok but then it would have been better to save it for next season and keep testing it until then? They could have kept one of the older non-standard maps for this season that have already seen a bit of play like Monty Hall, Blitz Y or something like that. | ||
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bochs
110 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1688 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands843 Posts
On May 21 2025 22:30 ImbaTosS wrote: It feels like the narrative among some people that Snow can't keep it together on a big stage is really not quite fair. He delivered an incredible set of games here against the undisputed best current player. Yes, if he'd have been a bit more on top of his mental game for that last match, he could have taken it rather than do something ill-advised. But it was damned close all the way, and credit is due for that. It just something people make up to try and explain why someone loses. people seem to forget that with in competitions someone wins and someone loses. both players can be in great mental states and in peak performance mode, and one still will lose. Specifically with Starcraft the person who loses can look like they are fumbling. Pros can snowball advantages really hard and really quick. This can make it look like the losing player is falling apart mentally. They are not. They are just playing with the game state being in favor of their opponent. Everything they do has a bigger chance to fail than to succeed when playing from a deficit. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria370 Posts
On May 21 2025 23:07 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: It just something people make up to try and explain why someone loses. people seem to forget that with in competitions someone wins and someone loses. both players can be in great mental states and in peak performance mode, and one still will lose. Specifically with Starcraft the person who loses can look like they are fumbling. Pros can snowball advantages really hard and really quick. This can make it look like the losing player is falling apart mentally. They are not. They are just playing with the game state being in favor of their opponent. Everything they do has a bigger chance to fail than to succeed when playing from a deficit. How much benefit of the doubt for Snow though? Although arguably and historically Best is the king of choke, bar none. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On May 21 2025 22:30 ImbaTosS wrote: It feels like the narrative among some people that Snow can't keep it together on a big stage is really not quite fair. He delivered an incredible set of games here against the undisputed best current player. Yes, if he'd have been a bit more on top of his mental game for that last match, he could have taken it rather than do something ill-advised. But it was damned close all the way, and credit is due for that. Speaking as someone who has quite a bit of experience in competition, both online and IRL, and struggles a lot with the mental part, I personally struggle a lot more towards the end of whatever competition (end of a series, final minutes of a match). Even if there is a strong lead, fear creeps in that I cannot keep it up and of course, even though somewhat ironically, this throws of my concentration, flow etc. and lets me perform worse. Of course everyone feels different but I believe this is a common occurrence and a big reason why comebacks in series happen. So while I agree with you that Snow delivered a fantastic series as a whole, I would also say in retrospect you could see Snow becoming more and more mentally unstable in the latter half of the series. Game 5 had me screaming at the monitor a few times because of his army movement (super indecisive and often prefered to stay on low ground instead of high ground, despite the placement of his third). Game 6 he played like a single player game for a long time, no "presence" at all until it was too late. And the last game his brain shortcircuited in the beginning (that happened to me quite a few time in important sports matches and is super painful), which subsequently lost him the game. | ||
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prion_
69 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6579 Posts
On May 22 2025 04:08 prion_ wrote: I really feel like that last game must have been a planned build. It seems like an insane thing to do on the fly. I been thinking about that aswell. Looks to me like something both of them prepared to counter cuz SK was also really quick to send all the extra drones. And Snow didnt think twice about doing that move either. | ||
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1688 Posts
On May 22 2025 00:27 Miragee wrote: Speaking as someone who has quite a bit of experience in competition, both online and IRL, and struggles a lot with the mental part, I personally struggle a lot more towards the end of whatever competition (end of a series, final minutes of a match). Even if there is a strong lead, fear creeps in that I cannot keep it up and of course, even though somewhat ironically, this throws of my concentration, flow etc. and lets me perform worse. Of course everyone feels different but I believe this is a common occurrence and a big reason why comebacks in series happen. So while I agree with you that Snow delivered a fantastic series as a whole, I would also say in retrospect you could see Snow becoming more and more mentally unstable in the latter half of the series. Game 5 had me screaming at the monitor a few times because of his army movement (super indecisive and often prefered to stay on low ground instead of high ground, despite the placement of his third). Game 6 he played like a single player game for a long time, no "presence" at all until it was too late. And the last game his brain shortcircuited in the beginning (that happened to me quite a few time in important sports matches and is super painful), which subsequently lost him the game. But did his brain shortcircuit? Again, I'm not sure - it didn't look so impromptu to me, just like something he'd planned if it went to the last set to try and catch SK off guard, it totally failed because... SK, and that was it. I'll have to watch back over games 5 and 6 to see what I think - I was mainly just swept along in watching and don't remember the analytical side of things :D I do take your point that the mental part of overcoming fear is a huge one. Hell, I experience this a lot with live performance as a musician - something I've practiced 100 times, but I know is tricky, is coming up, and my hands start to shake and it all becomes 10x harder to get right. The mental side is very, very real, I don't doubt it. | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
I agree that game 6 he played like a single player and was not "present" at all, but so did Soulkey. So it actually goes back to the question about the core of the matchup: if both players play single mode why does Zerg get to be ahead automatically? | ||
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1688 Posts
On May 22 2025 17:38 TMNT wrote: Snow probably explained game 7 on his postmatch streams but we need some korean speaker to catch that part. I agree that game 6 he played like a single player and was not "present" at all, but so did Soulkey. So it actually goes back to the question about the core of the matchup: if both players play single mode why does Zerg get to be ahead automatically? Is it a relevant question though? Rephrasing it as "if both players play without doing a lot of the most important moves, why does one race win?". It feels to me that if a problem goes away when each person plays well, it's not such a problem. | ||
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Simplistik
2006 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
Also I think performing music is a lot scarier than playing a game on stage. There is quite a bit room for error in BW and corrections can be made. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
Also I think performing music is a lot scarier than playing a game on stage. Simply because there is quite a bit room for error in BW and corrections can be made. | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
On May 22 2025 21:20 Simplistik wrote: The most disappointing thing for me was that Snow took no risk when he was on match point, with a game to spare. Game 6 would've been perfect for a 12 nexus or something. Feels like I made a similar comment like this already in this thread. Game 6 he would have gotten away with 12 Nexus because of the cross spawn no 9 Pool. But then again it's only hindsight talking. Snow might have thought about it, but then decided that "Soulkey must think the same so he's going to 9 Pool me and there's a 66% it's close spawn". In the end it's mostly luck really. | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece722 Posts
On May 22 2025 17:38 TMNT wrote: Snow probably explained game 7 on his postmatch streams but we need some korean speaker to catch that part. I agree that game 6 he played like a single player and was not "present" at all, but so did Soulkey. So it actually goes back to the question about the core of the matchup: if both players play single mode why does Zerg get to be ahead automatically? If zerg is allowed to drone up 3 bases, naturally he will be ahead of 2 base toss. Toss has around +10 workers all the time, so he can produce various strong timings for trades. This probe heavy 9 gateways powering into 3rd isnt necessarily bad, but you cant be doing it at every game that stabilizes, your predictability will be exploited. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6579 Posts
Snow for some reason wasnt satisfied with the scout information he was getting. And played a very defensive build to counter 973 from SK. He Purposely delayed his citadel to build more canons faster than usual. But then he cancel the extra canons and endep up with a late citadel. That mess up his timings and now have a late DT opening. Not zealot speed on time to do any kind of pressure either. Snow basically played the game 6 on full panic. Cuz even with Sairs out he was still making extra canons at his wall while SK was just droning and making 4 or 5 mutalisk . My issue here is that it was Cross spawns. He was 1 game ahead. I feel like he could have been more greedy but well.It is what it is. Would be nice to hear what he think about the series tho. It honestly feelt like Snow missed a golden opportunity to make the finals this time. Funny enough few days ago he shit so hard on SK in one of those Sponsored bo7 lol. Wasnt even close. | ||
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Ideas
United States8098 Posts
On May 23 2025 03:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: There is a reason Why that game 6 was so slow from Snow tho. Snow for some reason wasnt satisfied with the scout information he was getting. And played a very defensive build to counter 973 from SK. He Purposely delayed his citadel to build more canons faster than usual. But then he cancel the extra canons and endep up with a late citadel. That mess up his timings and now have a late DT opening. Not zealot speed on time to do any kind of pressure either. Snow basically played the game 6 on full panic. Cuz even with Sairs out he was still making extra canons at his wall while SK was just droning and making 4 or 5 mutalisk . My issue here is that it was Cross spawns. He was 1 game ahead. I feel like he could have been more greedy but well.It is what it is. Would be nice to hear what he think about the series tho. It honestly feelt like Snow missed a golden opportunity to make the finals this time. Funny enough few days ago he shit so hard on SK in one of those Sponsored bo7 lol. Wasnt even close. Seems like Snow definitely has some nerve issues offline that don’t appear when he’s playing online. | ||
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bochs
110 Posts
Funny enough few days ago he shit so hard on SK in one of those Sponsored bo7 lol. Wasnt even close. Snow slaughtered SK 4:0 in that spon match. Some people think SK likes to sandbag in low-stake games. I'd be curious to know if Korean fans think the same. | ||
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prion_
69 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands843 Posts
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KameZerg
Sweden1762 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
Sunday, May 25 5:00am GMT (GMT+00:00) | ||
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TMNT
2706 Posts
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Simplistik
2006 Posts
On May 23 2025 17:42 KameZerg wrote: Does anyone have the date and time for the finals? I can't seem to find it anywhere on TL. Thanks. The Liquipedia entry has a local time adjusted countdown! | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 23 2025 23:28 TMNT wrote: 7 am CEST? A lot of people will wake up that day and wonder where is their final lol No reason to though, it's been on the calendar for over a week. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 23 2025 23:49 Simplistik wrote: The Liquipedia entry has a local time adjusted countdown! Calendar also shows the right time for people. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey727 Posts
On May 23 2025 23:28 TMNT wrote: 7 am CEST? A lot of people will wake up that day and wonder where is their final lol | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey350 Posts
On May 17 2025 03:13 Soft_General_5023 wrote: geez, what a bunch of protoss whiners, stork is proud of you guys look at top 4 asl this season: 2 protoss look at elo board top 10: 4 protoss last week sponsor match snow mini vs speed rush: terran lost 1:8 wasn't even funny about death valley pvz: best and snow chose it in asl quarter/semifinals, it was their map pick. and best apparently chose it again for the finals, go tell him he is wrong I got flak for saying Snow is best in PvT. I still stay vindicated. PvZ is not throwing everything including the kitchen sink at the zerg. Snow flukes in early game by %50 and that really lowers his odds. I really got scared at the 2 hour mark, I really believe Snow could 4:0 Soulkey if he had it in him. Just look at the games... | ||
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