EPTRain got utterly clapped. He still looked good from a control perspective, but his decision making was off. Cheez'd
[ASL17] Ro24 Group F - Page 4
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3132 Posts
Rain got utterly clapped. He still looked good from a control perspective, but his decision making was off. Cheez'd | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1328 Posts
Rain had a chain of good choices vs Royal, but then overstepped with bad engagements. the third was the best option because terran has to either push up from low onto highground or push through narrow pathway. RoyaL had amazing templar snipes with tanks and that allowed him to leverage map with tanks. Also it is not as if RoyaL isnt trying to outplay him. A lot happens and player skill levels are very close. Specifically Rain and Royal who are both Ro8 material. | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada137 Posts
On March 07 2024 13:49 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Rain does not have a bad pvt at all. If you think that then you have not been following any online pro v pro play at all. 99.9% of all pro matches are online. Rain does generally well in online. Rain had a chain of good choices vs Royal, but then overstepped with bad engagements. the third was the best option because terran has to either push up from low onto highground or push through narrow pathway. RoyaL had amazing templar snipes with tanks and that allowed him to leverage map with tanks. Also it is not as if RoyaL isnt trying to outplay him. A lot happens and player skill levels are very close. Specifically Rain and Royal who are both Ro8 material. In a tournament setting, his PvT record is now 39% (significantly worse than Bisu's, who is already known as having weaker PvT). In past seasons, aside from getting dominated by Flash, Last, and Light, he's also been knocked out by Sharp (KSL 2), Sea (ASL 2), Ssak (ASL 3), and has dropped games to Mong (ASL 4) as well. Rain has never won a PvT best of 3 or 5 series ever since ASL 1. In fact, his tournament PvT winrate is worse than Snow, Best, Mini, Bisu and Shuttle. He's not bad at it from an objective point of view, just worse than those Protosses. It can't even be chalked up to the sample size being too small as well; he gets praised as a PvP god with 19 PvP games played in the ASL, but his subpar PvT is shown in a total of 33 games. He doesn't do any specific thing well in that matchup; he doesn't have the reaver control of Snow, he doesn't have the timing busts of Best, his army control is worse than Bisu's, he doesn't multitask as well as Mini, and can't split the map as well as Shuttle. | ||
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TMNT
3385 Posts
On March 08 2024 08:01 ruhtraeel wrote: In a tournament setting, his PvT record is now 39% (significantly worse than Bisu's, who is already known as having weaker PvT). In past seasons, aside from getting dominated by Flash, Last, and Light, he's also been knocked out by Sharp (KSL 2), Sea (ASL 2), Ssak (ASL 3), and has dropped games to Mong (ASL 4) as well. Rain has never won a PvT best of 3 or 5 series ever since ASL 1. In fact, his tournament PvT winrate is worse than Snow, Best, Mini, Bisu and Shuttle. He's not bad at it from an objective point of view, just worse than those Protosses. It can't even be chalked up to the sample size being too small as well; he gets praised as a PvP god with 19 PvP games played in the ASL, but his subpar PvT is shown in a total of 33 games. He doesn't do any specific thing well in that matchup; he doesn't have the reaver control of Snow, he doesn't have the timing busts of Best, his army control is worse than Bisu's, he doesn't multitask as well as Mini, and can't split the map as well as Shuttle. What kind of sources do you use for these stats? Because almost every single piece of information in your post is wrong. Here are list of Rain's games:  Rain/MatchesAnd here the stats of top 10 players each race for each matchup (ASL+KSL), before this season: https://jackyvso.github.io/Starcraft/ (go to section 3) In a tournament setting, his PvT record is now 39% (significantly worse than Bisu's, who is already known as having weaker PvT). It can't even be chalked up to the sample size being too small as well; he gets praised as a PvP god with 19 PvP games played in the ASL, but his subpar PvT is shown in a total of 33 games. His PvT win rate is 52% from 54 games. And his PvP is 84% from 50 games. And while his PvT win rate is lower than Mini (58%) and Bisu (53%), it gets skewed by him playing Light in two finals with a total score of 2-8. If we remove that then his win rate immediately jumps up to 59%. That's sample size being too small for you: just one or two extra series and the win rate of a player gets swinged. In general, the matchup win rates in ASL are not reliable at all because of (a) sample size, (b) different opponents and (c) players level change over time. In past seasons, aside from getting dominated by Flash, Last, and Light Flash and Light yeah, but who doesn't get dominated by them ? Last you're wrong. Rain beat Last 3-1 in KSL3 and lost 2-3 in ASL7. You called that dominated? he's also been knocked out by Sharp (KSL 2), Sea (ASL 2), Ssak (ASL 3), and has dropped games to Mong (ASL 4) as well. So he lost some PvT games, just like... everyone else? And don't forget that Sea and Sharp in the early seasons are the equivalent of Light and Rush now. But let's see which Terrans the other Protosses have lost to: - Mini: Rush, sSak, Mong, Barracks, Last, Sharp - Bisu: Ample (lol), Mind, Sharp, JYJ (back when JYJ was bang average), Leta, Sea So in terms of losing to players they are "not supposed to", Bisu and Mini are even worse. Rain has never won a PvT best of 3 or 5 series ever since ASL 1. Come on man, it's not hard to google. He beat Light 3-1 and Leta 3-0 in KSL2, beat Sharp 3-1 and Last 3-1 in KSL3, and beat Light 2-1 in ASL13. What an insult to Rain to say he's worse than Shuttle at PvT lol. At worst he's tied with Bisu and Mini at PvT. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1328 Posts
On March 08 2024 10:03 TMNT wrote: What kind of sources do you use for these stats? Because almost every single piece of information in your post is wrong. Here are list of Rain's games: Rain/MatchesAnd here the stats of top 10 players each race for each matchup (ASL+KSL), before this season: https://jackyvso.github.io/Starcraft/ (go to section 3) His PvT win rate is 52% from 54 games. And his PvP is 84% from 50 games. And while his PvT win rate is lower than Mini (58%) and Bisu (53%), it gets skewed by him playing Light in two finals with a total score of 2-8. If we remove that then his win rate immediately jumps up to 59%. That's sample size being too small for you: just one or two extra series and the win rate of a player gets swinged. In general, the matchup win rates in ASL are not reliable at all because of (a) sample size, (b) different opponents and (c) players level change over time. Flash and Light yeah, but who doesn't get dominated by them ? Last you're wrong. Rain beat Last 3-1 in KSL3 and lost 2-3 in ASL7. You called that dominated? So he lost some PvT games, just like... everyone else? And don't forget that Sea and Sharp in the early seasons are the equivalent of Light and Rush now. But let's see which Terrans the other Protosses have lost to: - Mini: Rush, sSak, Mong, Barracks, Last, Sharp - Bisu: Ample (lol), Mind, Sharp, JYJ (back when JYJ was bang average), Leta, Sea So in terms of losing to players they are "not supposed to", Bisu and Mini are even worse. Come on man, it's not hard to google. He beat Light 3-1 and Leta 3-0 in KSL2, beat Sharp 3-1 and Last 3-1 in KSL3, and beat Light 2-1 in ASL13. What an insult to Rain to say he's worse than Shuttle at PvT lol. At worst he's tied with Bisu and Mini at PvT. Thank you for presenting the facts. Another thing that is also important to keep in mind in todays state of the game. The levels between players has become much much closer over the past few years. Early ASL people were just coming out of BW retirement and the game wasnt that well optimized compared to now. Players have found new ways of squeezing everything they can out of every seconds, every minerals and every movement. And unlike before asl or early asl, everyone is now maximally optimized. Sharp was known until like ASL 10 for having really poor optimization unlike all other terrans at that time. Things like manual mining boosting, horizontal mining and most optimal timings etc. Back then players could get away with that. Now you cant. any slight mistake no matter how small backfires. This can make realllly good players look bad compared to their opponent because the minimum requirement for losing has gone down. smaller and smaller things can now snowball games and make a player look helpless. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey850 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1328 Posts
On March 08 2024 14:17 HOLYBATS wrote: Old stats does not reflect current Rains performance as he did not trained enough.He choked two times this ASL first eliminated to Ssak on qualifiers day 1 and lost 2 BO1. Losing vs ssak does not equate to choking at all. Ssak is currently a very well performing terran in online, specidically vs protoss. Losing does not mean someone by default played bad or that they choked. Rain lost to Ssak, which is ok. He lost to RoyaL, who has won an ASL and generally does really well in tvp vs anyone not named sNow. | ||
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TMNT
3385 Posts
I think it's time we break that myth. There's no way that everyone who plays Protoss tends to be a "choker" more than anyone who plays other races. The thing is, Protoss is the race that has the worst ability to play out from a disadvantaged position (I don't think anyone can debate this). It's literally the same principle in SC2 too. So as RJBTV said with how optimizations are nowadays, a small mistake can snowball hard and it costs Protoss the most at this level, because Protoss can't come back when behind. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1328 Posts
On March 08 2024 21:01 TMNT wrote: Protoss players tend to be branded as "chokers" the most. Best is the most prominent one. Bisu had that tag sometimes too and still has I think. Snow gets it more recently and now is known as an online performer, an old title of Best. Mini escapes that tag despite losing to "supposedly weaker" players to him all the time, just because he's more known as a "wild" player. Now it's Rain's turn? I think it's time we break that myth. There's no way that everyone who plays Protoss tends to be a "choker" more than anyone who plays other races. The thing is, Protoss is the race that has the worst ability to play out from a disadvantaged position (I don't think anyone can debate this). It's literally the same principle in SC2 too. So as RJBTV said with how optimizations are nowadays, a small mistake can snowball hard and it costs Protoss the most at this level, because Protoss can't come back when behind. The fact Rain actually managed to fight himself out of an extremely bad situation against Royal was already a miracle. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia983 Posts
Coming back from things like losing HTs or reavers without dealing damage, however, can be a tall order. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland620 Posts
the message was that protoss will most likely lose if he is in a disadvantageous position because of an error. Protoss relies on early / mid game the most vs other races (needs to force trades vs terran, needs to attack before hive tech vs zerg etc). To put it in other words, if protoss camps and does nothing with 200 / 200, zerg will be happy, terran will be happy. As for Rain, I think he is great with mechanics and decision making, which make him a great PvP player | ||
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
On March 08 2024 21:48 Bonyth wrote: disadvantage =/= early game BO disadvantage the message was that protoss will most likely lose if he is in a disadvantageous position because of an error. Protoss relies on early / mid game the most vs other races (needs to force trades vs terran, needs to attack before hive tech vs zerg etc). To put it in other words, if protoss camps and does nothing with 200 / 200, zerg will be happy, terran will be happy. As for Rain, I think he is great with mechanics and decision making, which make him a great PvP player What is more to SC than mechanics and decision making? Poker face and mental fortitude? | ||
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Bonyth
Poland620 Posts
let's fix the statement. He's got a very good skillset against Protoss! | ||
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Ideas
United States8181 Posts
I thought this map pool was anti-terran but really only troy is hard for TvP, looks like BlitzY and Citadel are actually pretty good for TvP. And seems like Citedel is actually not great for ZvT or ZvP either? Just no real room for flanks/controlling big armies etc, and no good high ground chokes for lurkers to guard bases from MnM. Haven't really played on it at all, just from spectating. BlitzY seems pretty terrible for ZvT also, with no easy to defend 3rd and so many pathways for terran to take around the map to different bases and natural. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7195 Posts
I feel so strange to judge Rain . when everyone knows he is not taking ASL serious at all. Rain never been a guy known for mass playing. But he put a lot of time studying the game. He always been the kind of player that is able to map out his oponent and come with a perfect counter. He already won a lot in SC2 and BW and it is so clear he is not trying hard last seasons. It is true he failed hard vs FlaSh in that ASL final but honestly i will not call that choked or that protoss is weak and all that bs that protoss fan always crying. It is more like FlaSh is the kind of player that let you know what he is doing and is perfectly comfortable with it and smashing you. It is more like a hard counter to Rain tbh. Rain is an extremely talented and acomplished player but he is not trying hard anymore. | ||
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TMNT
3385 Posts
On March 09 2024 00:08 Ideas wrote: I thought this map pool was anti-terran but really only troy is hard for TvP, looks like BlitzY and Citadel are actually pretty good for TvP. And seems like Citedel is actually not great for ZvT or ZvP either? Just no real room for flanks/controlling big armies etc, and no good high ground chokes for lurkers to guard bases from MnM. Haven't really played on it at all, just from spectating. BlitzY seems pretty terrible for ZvT also, with no easy to defend 3rd and so many pathways for terran to take around the map to different bases and natural. Nah BlitzY is hard for TvP, just like any 2p maps. You have the early game shenanigans from Protoss as usual. But it's even harder than the average 2p maps because there is no good place for a 3rd base for Terran. PvT win rate in BlitzY currently sits at 59.1% (all games) and 66.7% (Proleague only). That's why in the 2 TvP games in ASL this season you saw Terrans going for weird strategies (JYJ with stim rush and Royal with 2 Fac). T will lose more TvPs in standard games in BlitzY, but I think over time they will figure it out and improve the win rate, just like theys always do. For Citadel, the PvT win rate is currently 47% (all games) and 50% (Proleague only) so I guess PvT is somewhat balanced. But for TvZ it's like what you said. It's 58% (all games) and 62% (Proleague only) for Terrans as of now. | ||
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Ideas
United States8181 Posts
On March 09 2024 04:55 TMNT wrote: Nah BlitzY is hard for TvP, just like any 2p maps. You have the early game shenanigans from Protoss as usual. But it's even harder than the average 2p maps because there is no good place for a 3rd base for Terran. PvT win rate in BlitzY currently sits at 59.1% (all games) and 66.7% (Proleague only). That's why in the 2 TvP games in ASL this season you saw Terrans going for weird strategies (JYJ with stim rush and Royal with 2 Fac). T will lose more TvPs in standard games in BlitzY, but I think over time they will figure it out and improve the win rate, just like theys always do. For Citadel, the PvT win rate is currently 47% (all games) and 50% (Proleague only) so I guess PvT is somewhat balanced. But for TvZ it's like what you said. It's 58% (all games) and 62% (Proleague only) for Terrans as of now. Interesting, thanks for the info! | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1718 Posts
WHY BEST OF ONE In 2024 Rain deserves so much better fucksakes | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4298 Posts
On March 10 2024 11:23 ShowTheLights wrote: FUCK BEST OF ONE WHY BEST OF ONE In 2024 Rain deserves so much better fucksakes hear, hear | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5980 Posts
Rain's 2nd day's qualifier group was arguably easy (he failed to win the 1st day's in the final vs sSak) and in Rain's Ro24 group RoyaL was his only real threat imo and Rain still drops out 0-2. If we get hand picked groups again next season, I hope Rain will be put into the same qualifier group as Calm, Sea, Horang2, Guemchi, etc. so we only get to see the most serious (or talented) variety streamer in the Ro24. I also would like to see the final match in Ro24 be a Bo3 just to combat luck a little bit. That should make for a higher quality Ro16. | ||
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