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On August 17 2023 17:42 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 15:23 TMNT wrote:On August 17 2023 13:28 Terrorbladder wrote:
After this group I think it's safe to say it's not a map balance/racial balance problem. Protoss players just have a skill issue. I'm sorry but this is a dumb statement which probably stems from the narrative created by Flash (when talking about the no Protoss bonjwa thing) and... Artosis. Although both races are thrashed by Terran, Protoss in fact has more appearances in ASL finals than Zerg, of which Snow himself had been there twice. Funny that the two big Protosses who never made ASL finals (Best and Bisu) are decorated players during Kespa which was actually the bigger and harder stage. So, put together the facts that tier 1 Protosses tend to crash out more in Ro24 but still appear in finals more than Zerg, a more logical theory is the Protoss race is more vulnerable to the BO1 format, which also fits with the fact that they tend to do better online where the number of games is close to infinite. I'm sure if you look deep into meta and build order you can find clues why Protoss is more vulnerable to BO1, like RJBTV just said above. Also the map balance is literally written down in its win rate, not deduced from 1 single game lol. I wouldn't even take these trolls seriously. They know exactly that they don't know what they're talking about, they just want to have opinions. "Snow has gotten worse" lmao The bo1 format during the group stage is just extremely unforgiving. Several games get decided by coin flip scenarios and people actually argue there's any skill involved in that. Even Flash loses many, many games by coin flip.
We both had heated debates in the past and probably will have in the future as well but still can find many mutual grounds. Cheers.
As for complaining about BO1, people seem to forget ASL was still BO1 even in the Ro16 until season 7 and if not for the community voice we would still be looking at that travesty now.
Every time "lesser players" flukes their way out of Ro24 thanks to BO1, they immediately become the most hunted preys in the group nomination and get massacred next round so what's the point? But most of the times they just go home after 2 games anyway. So I'd argue that BO3 in Ro24 at least gives newcomers more chances to showcase their talent/style, instead of just being there.
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On August 17 2023 17:53 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 17:42 Magic Powers wrote:On August 17 2023 15:23 TMNT wrote:On August 17 2023 13:28 Terrorbladder wrote:
After this group I think it's safe to say it's not a map balance/racial balance problem. Protoss players just have a skill issue. I'm sorry but this is a dumb statement which probably stems from the narrative created by Flash (when talking about the no Protoss bonjwa thing) and... Artosis. Although both races are thrashed by Terran, Protoss in fact has more appearances in ASL finals than Zerg, of which Snow himself had been there twice. Funny that the two big Protosses who never made ASL finals (Best and Bisu) are decorated players during Kespa which was actually the bigger and harder stage. So, put together the facts that tier 1 Protosses tend to crash out more in Ro24 but still appear in finals more than Zerg, a more logical theory is the Protoss race is more vulnerable to the BO1 format, which also fits with the fact that they tend to do better online where the number of games is close to infinite. I'm sure if you look deep into meta and build order you can find clues why Protoss is more vulnerable to BO1, like RJBTV just said above. Also the map balance is literally written down in its win rate, not deduced from 1 single game lol. I wouldn't even take these trolls seriously. They know exactly that they don't know what they're talking about, they just want to have opinions. "Snow has gotten worse" lmao The bo1 format during the group stage is just extremely unforgiving. Several games get decided by coin flip scenarios and people actually argue there's any skill involved in that. Even Flash loses many, many games by coin flip. We both had heated debates in the past and probably will have in the future as well but still can find many mutual grounds. Cheers. As for complaining about BO1, people seem to forget ASL was still BO1 even in the Ro16 until season 7 and if not for the community voice we would still be looking at that travesty now. Every time "lesser players" flukes their way out of Ro24 thanks to BO1, they immediately become the most hunted preys in the group nomination and get massacred next round so what's the point? But most of the times they just go home after 2 games anyway. So I'd argue that BO3 in Ro24 at least gives newcomers more chances to showcase their talent/style, instead of just being there.
That's right. There's another format for the group stage where the first match is bo1, and then the winners, losers and finals are all bo3. I think with that the ASL ratings would increase because more of the favorites would likely advance. Comes at little cost because only around half of every bo3 are expected to go the whole length, so it's an additional ~4.5 games per group.
If the issue is that studios are expensive, then why not make the group stage more forgiving and reduce the later match duration to bo5 as it used to be done during the Kespa era?
Also regarding people asking "when will Snow's fanboys stop?" I could ask in return "when will Snow's haters stop?" You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to other people changing their opinion. The data supports Snow, and if you want to ignore the data and instead make claims about "nerves", that's your personal speculation.
Royal and Killer are no slouches. Royal can beat Snow in a bo1 any time of the day. And Killer isn't some low grade pro who relies on luck. I'd give a lot more credit to a B tier player like Killer being able to find a win in a bo1 against one of the best players. Instead of shitting on Snow, maybe give props to Killer when it's deserved? You know, just to spread more positivity for a change.
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On August 17 2023 17:53 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 17:42 Magic Powers wrote:On August 17 2023 15:23 TMNT wrote:On August 17 2023 13:28 Terrorbladder wrote:
After this group I think it's safe to say it's not a map balance/racial balance problem. Protoss players just have a skill issue. I'm sorry but this is a dumb statement which probably stems from the narrative created by Flash (when talking about the no Protoss bonjwa thing) and... Artosis. Although both races are thrashed by Terran, Protoss in fact has more appearances in ASL finals than Zerg, of which Snow himself had been there twice. Funny that the two big Protosses who never made ASL finals (Best and Bisu) are decorated players during Kespa which was actually the bigger and harder stage. So, put together the facts that tier 1 Protosses tend to crash out more in Ro24 but still appear in finals more than Zerg, a more logical theory is the Protoss race is more vulnerable to the BO1 format, which also fits with the fact that they tend to do better online where the number of games is close to infinite. I'm sure if you look deep into meta and build order you can find clues why Protoss is more vulnerable to BO1, like RJBTV just said above. Also the map balance is literally written down in its win rate, not deduced from 1 single game lol. I wouldn't even take these trolls seriously. They know exactly that they don't know what they're talking about, they just want to have opinions. "Snow has gotten worse" lmao The bo1 format during the group stage is just extremely unforgiving. Several games get decided by coin flip scenarios and people actually argue there's any skill involved in that. Even Flash loses many, many games by coin flip. We both had heated debates in the past and probably will have in the future as well but still can find many mutual grounds. Cheers. As for complaining about BO1, people seem to forget ASL was still BO1 even in the Ro16 until season 7 and if not for the community voice we would still be looking at that travesty now. Every time "lesser players" flukes their way out of Ro24 thanks to BO1, they immediately become the most hunted preys in the group nomination and get massacred next round so what's the point? But most of the times they just go home after 2 games anyway. So I'd argue that BO3 in Ro24 at least gives newcomers more chances to showcase their talent/style, instead of just being there.
im sure players like zelot appreciate a random TL poster hot take that he should just "showcase their talent/style" and have a much higher chance of losing bo3 over his past achievement of topping his ro24 group with bo1.
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Snow haters also forget that there's more to BW than ASL. ASL RO24 might in fact be the poorest metric to track and determine player skill. If anything it is more a test of playing under pressure and keeping oneself collected. Sample size of games is way too small. Ro24 has a lot of coinflips where either player can win. "Lesser" Players deliberately force coinflip situations because they are fully aware their chances of winning decrease playing standard.
Look beyond ASL. Go to Eloboard and click on Snow's name and look at his achievements. Look at Snow winning Multiple Sanpao Spring cups where he more or less played against ASL Ro8 contenders to win those. Look at Ultimate Battle performance, KCM, Proleague, Spon matches. Anyone who claims Snow or protoss overall is doing bad is simply not looking at the truth shown in the data.
Its these uneducated takes that do nothing but show you know not what you're talking about.
Am I a SnOw fan? No. But I got to give credit and criticism where it is due. Snow is great online. He has lately been failing to translate that to offline. Would he fare better in best of sets in offline? More likely yes than not.
There is a reason there's so few amateurs or mid/low tier pros making it into ASL. Qualifiers are all best of three tournaments. Upsets happen in Qualifiers, but not as often as in the Bo1 ro24 format.
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On August 17 2023 19:13 ggsimida wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 17:53 TMNT wrote:On August 17 2023 17:42 Magic Powers wrote:On August 17 2023 15:23 TMNT wrote:On August 17 2023 13:28 Terrorbladder wrote:
After this group I think it's safe to say it's not a map balance/racial balance problem. Protoss players just have a skill issue. I'm sorry but this is a dumb statement which probably stems from the narrative created by Flash (when talking about the no Protoss bonjwa thing) and... Artosis. Although both races are thrashed by Terran, Protoss in fact has more appearances in ASL finals than Zerg, of which Snow himself had been there twice. Funny that the two big Protosses who never made ASL finals (Best and Bisu) are decorated players during Kespa which was actually the bigger and harder stage. So, put together the facts that tier 1 Protosses tend to crash out more in Ro24 but still appear in finals more than Zerg, a more logical theory is the Protoss race is more vulnerable to the BO1 format, which also fits with the fact that they tend to do better online where the number of games is close to infinite. I'm sure if you look deep into meta and build order you can find clues why Protoss is more vulnerable to BO1, like RJBTV just said above. Also the map balance is literally written down in its win rate, not deduced from 1 single game lol. I wouldn't even take these trolls seriously. They know exactly that they don't know what they're talking about, they just want to have opinions. "Snow has gotten worse" lmao The bo1 format during the group stage is just extremely unforgiving. Several games get decided by coin flip scenarios and people actually argue there's any skill involved in that. Even Flash loses many, many games by coin flip. We both had heated debates in the past and probably will have in the future as well but still can find many mutual grounds. Cheers. As for complaining about BO1, people seem to forget ASL was still BO1 even in the Ro16 until season 7 and if not for the community voice we would still be looking at that travesty now. Every time "lesser players" flukes their way out of Ro24 thanks to BO1, they immediately become the most hunted preys in the group nomination and get massacred next round so what's the point? But most of the times they just go home after 2 games anyway. So I'd argue that BO3 in Ro24 at least gives newcomers more chances to showcase their talent/style, instead of just being there. im sure players like zelot appreciate a random TL poster hot take that he should just "showcase their talent/style" and have a much higher chance of losing bo3 over his past achievement of topping his ro24 group with bo1.
Yeah, underdogs don't like the format that gives them less chance to advance (despite it being the better one). What else is new?
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On August 17 2023 19:59 RJBTV wrote:
Snow haters also forget that there's more to BW than ASL. ASL RO24 might in fact be the poorest metric to track and determine player skill. If anything it is more a test of playing under pressure and keeping oneself collected. Sample size of games is way too small. Ro24 has a lot of coinflips where either player can win. "Lesser" Players deliberately force coinflip situations because they are fully aware their chances of winning decrease playing standard.
Look beyond ASL. Go to Eloboard and click on Snow's name and look at his achievements. Look at Snow winning Multiple Sanpao Spring cups where he more or less played against ASL Ro8 contenders to win those. Look at Ultimate Battle performance, KCM, Proleague, Spon matches. Anyone who claims Snow or protoss overall is doing bad is simply not looking at the truth shown in the data.
Its these uneducated takes that do nothing but show you know not what you're talking about.
Am I a SnOw fan? No. But I got to give credit and criticism where it is due. Snow is great online. He has lately been failing to translate that to offline. Would he fare better in best of sets in offline? More likely yes than not.
There is a reason there's so few amateurs or mid/low tier pros making it into ASL. Qualifiers are all best of three tournaments. Upsets happen in Qualifiers, but not as often as in the Bo1 ro24 format.
It doesn't matter, just like OSL and MSL (a bit less) were titles that defined players in the past, ASL is now. Snow being eliminated again means he's just not good enough, doesn't matter what his stats are in other leagues. He can be the best everywhere, as long as he doesn't win ASL, he's nothing.
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Look at Sea being a great player in Proleague, who remembers him? No one, he didnt accomplish anything. No leagues won is just a crappy player, that's the way ppl look at it and imo it's also right. Sea wasn't that great, he was ok by his teams standards, did win a lot, but yea... Snow.. I mean he might be the worst underperformer ever, if he wants any recognition he has to win ASL.
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On August 17 2023 21:19 Kaolla wrote:
Look at Sea being a great player in Proleague, who remembers him? No one, he didnt accomplish anything. No leagues won is just a crappy player, that's the way ppl look at it and imo it's also right. Sea wasn't that great, he was ok by his teams standards, did win a lot, but yea... Snow.. I mean he might be the worst underperformer ever, if he wants any recognition he has to win ASL.
He's recognized by no other than his colleagues, fellow progamers, casters etc. Ask them who is one of the best Protosses in the modern era, who has the best Reaver control in history, who is always one of the last picks in ASL Ro16 group nomination.
For once, if Artosis continues repeating he has the best PvT in history, lots of people will buy into it, whether it's true or not. Who are the "people" that look at it the way you described, or you're just voicing your personal opinion? I'm sure there are other people who think like you. But it's a pity that our people > your people.
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On August 17 2023 21:44 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 21:19 Kaolla wrote:
Look at Sea being a great player in Proleague, who remembers him? No one, he didnt accomplish anything. No leagues won is just a crappy player, that's the way ppl look at it and imo it's also right. Sea wasn't that great, he was ok by his teams standards, did win a lot, but yea... Snow.. I mean he might be the worst underperformer ever, if he wants any recognition he has to win ASL. He's recognized by no other than his colleagues, fellow progamers, casters etc. Ask them who is one of the best Protosses in the modern era, who has the best Reaver control in history, who is always one of the last picks in ASL Ro16 group nomination. For once, if Artosis continues repeating he has the best PvT in history, lots of people will buy into it, whether it's true or not. Who are the "people" that look at it the way you described, or you're just voicing your personal opinion? I'm sure there are other people who think like you. But it's a pity that our people > your people.
It doesn't matter what Artosis says and if he can beat Artosis with scouts, he's definitely good, that's not the point. It's just when asked about good players, he will never be in people's minds. Just like Sea wouldn't make any terran top 10 list despite all his best efforts back in the days. Titiles are important in this and Snow doesn't have one and in general is just a shitty player in (televised) tournaments. He won't be remembered, Stork and Bisu will go down as much better players, despite Snow actually being better now. And I mean you can even add Mini to the list. I think Snow is a much better player but it doesn't matter, Snow always fails.
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Bisutopia19230 Posts
I'm getting to old to watch ZvP.
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It can be argued that every ASL title holder does deserve their title, but the reverse claim is absurd. An ASL title is a freak occurrence that only few have a realistic shot at. Snow reached two ASL finals and placed second both times (against Rain and Flash). Sharp reached one ASL final and also placed second (against Shuttle). Soma reached one ASL final and likewise placed second (against Queen).
JyJ was in one ASL final and won (against Mind). So allegedly JyJ has proven himself worthy, but not Snow, Sharp or Soma. Ok, makes complete sense. /s
Furthermore, if an ASL title is how we measure a player's true accomplishment, why are there still people saying that Royal is a bad player? He has a title and he even gives Soma a run for his money. He's now on his way to another run.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either the ASL title means everything, or it's only one of many puzzle pieces that determine a truly accomplished player. You can't argue it's both at the same time.
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On August 17 2023 22:12 Magic Powers wrote:
It can be argued that every ASL title holder does deserve their title, but the reverse claim is absurd. An ASL title is a freak occurrence that only few have a realistic shot at. Snow reached two ASL finals and placed second both times (against Rain and Flash). Sharp reached one ASL final and also placed second (against Shuttle). Soma reached one ASL final and likewise placed second (against Queen).
JyJ was in one ASL final and won (against Mind). So allegedly JyJ has proven himself worthy, but not Snow, Sharp or Soma. Ok, makes complete sense. /s
Furthermore, if an ASL title is how we measure a player's true accomplishment, why are there still people saying that Royal is a bad player? He has a title and he even gives Soma a run for his money. He's now on his way to another run.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either the ASL title means everything, or it's only one of many puzzle pieces that determine a truly accomplished player. You can't argue it's both at the same time.
Not sure what you're trying to argue here, ASL titles mean everything. Just like OSL and MSL (lesser) titles meant everything in the past. Jyj and Shuttle, and even Royal, will go down in history bigger than Snow and Sea for that matter. That's just the way it is.
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it is really just some foreigners who put this much weight into an ASL title and ignore other tournaments with efffevtively the exact same players in it. Look at starcast new worlds. who made it to the top 8? look at past castermuse starleague seasons. those had the same players as ASL at the time did. are we going to ignore that too? ASL does have the most production quality invested into it, but winning ASL does not make one better than winning another tournament with the same players. Its just being narrow and closed minded with your eyes wide shut to ignore those. Light was the best player in 2020 but won no ASL in 2020. He dominated everything else in fashion even better than flash did. Right now Snow is doing the same thing. He is dominating everything except ASL.
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On August 17 2023 22:21 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 22:12 Magic Powers wrote:
It can be argued that every ASL title holder does deserve their title, but the reverse claim is absurd. An ASL title is a freak occurrence that only few have a realistic shot at. Snow reached two ASL finals and placed second both times (against Rain and Flash). Sharp reached one ASL final and also placed second (against Shuttle). Soma reached one ASL final and likewise placed second (against Queen).
JyJ was in one ASL final and won (against Mind). So allegedly JyJ has proven himself worthy, but not Snow, Sharp or Soma. Ok, makes complete sense. /s
Furthermore, if an ASL title is how we measure a player's true accomplishment, why are there still people saying that Royal is a bad player? He has a title and he even gives Soma a run for his money. He's now on his way to another run.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either the ASL title means everything, or it's only one of many puzzle pieces that determine a truly accomplished player. You can't argue it's both at the same time. Not sure what you're trying to argue here, ASL titles mean everything. Just like OSL and MSL (lesser) titles meant everything in the past. Jyj and Shuttle, and even Royal, will go down in history bigger than Snow and Sea for that matter. That's just the way it is.
I'm arguing that, while an ASL title means a player IS in fact accomplished, the lack of an ASL title does not mean that they're NOT accomplished.
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PvZ is a lame matchup. Players are too good to have only side scouting
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On August 17 2023 22:43 Postaljester_ wrote:
PvZ is a lame matchup. Players are too good to have only side scouting
Don't lose scouting probe to slow lings.
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On August 17 2023 21:58 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 21:44 TMNT wrote:On August 17 2023 21:19 Kaolla wrote:
Look at Sea being a great player in Proleague, who remembers him? No one, he didnt accomplish anything. No leagues won is just a crappy player, that's the way ppl look at it and imo it's also right. Sea wasn't that great, he was ok by his teams standards, did win a lot, but yea... Snow.. I mean he might be the worst underperformer ever, if he wants any recognition he has to win ASL. He's recognized by no other than his colleagues, fellow progamers, casters etc. Ask them who is one of the best Protosses in the modern era, who has the best Reaver control in history, who is always one of the last picks in ASL Ro16 group nomination. For once, if Artosis continues repeating he has the best PvT in history, lots of people will buy into it, whether it's true or not. Who are the "people" that look at it the way you described, or you're just voicing your personal opinion? I'm sure there are other people who think like you. But it's a pity that our people > your people. It doesn't matter what Artosis says and if he can beat Artosis with scouts, he's definitely good, that's not the point. It's just when asked about good players, he will never be in people's minds. Just like Sea wouldn't make any terran top 10 list despite all his best efforts back in the days. Titiles are important in this and Snow doesn't have one and in general is just a shitty player in (televised) tournaments. He won't be remembered, Stork and Bisu will go down as much better players, despite Snow actually being better now. And I mean you can even add Mini to the list. I think Snow is a much better player but it doesn't matter, Snow always fails.
I have to ask you again, who are the people you're referring to? Because if you're into the Korean scene, you'll know that no one cares about JYJ even now let alone in the future. Royal will probaby be treated the same, unless they win a couple more. But many will remember Snow and his reaver.
Snow must be the equivalent of a tennis player who spends many weeks at the top of the ATP ranking, has the best drop shot in the history of the game, but never won a Grand Slam. I'm sure if such player existed he'll be remembered fondly by fans and colleagues.
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On August 17 2023 23:01 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 21:58 Kaolla wrote:On August 17 2023 21:44 TMNT wrote:On August 17 2023 21:19 Kaolla wrote:
Look at Sea being a great player in Proleague, who remembers him? No one, he didnt accomplish anything. No leagues won is just a crappy player, that's the way ppl look at it and imo it's also right. Sea wasn't that great, he was ok by his teams standards, did win a lot, but yea... Snow.. I mean he might be the worst underperformer ever, if he wants any recognition he has to win ASL. He's recognized by no other than his colleagues, fellow progamers, casters etc. Ask them who is one of the best Protosses in the modern era, who has the best Reaver control in history, who is always one of the last picks in ASL Ro16 group nomination. For once, if Artosis continues repeating he has the best PvT in history, lots of people will buy into it, whether it's true or not. Who are the "people" that look at it the way you described, or you're just voicing your personal opinion? I'm sure there are other people who think like you. But it's a pity that our people > your people. It doesn't matter what Artosis says and if he can beat Artosis with scouts, he's definitely good, that's not the point. It's just when asked about good players, he will never be in people's minds. Just like Sea wouldn't make any terran top 10 list despite all his best efforts back in the days. Titiles are important in this and Snow doesn't have one and in general is just a shitty player in (televised) tournaments. He won't be remembered, Stork and Bisu will go down as much better players, despite Snow actually being better now. And I mean you can even add Mini to the list. I think Snow is a much better player but it doesn't matter, Snow always fails. I have to ask you again, who are the people you're referring to? Because if you're into the Korean scene, you'll know that no one cares about JYJ even now let alone in the future. Royal will probaby be treated the same, unless they win a couple more. But many will remember Snow and his reaver. Snow must be the equivalent of a tennis player who spends many weeks at the top of the ATP ranking, has the best drop shot in the history of the game, but never won a Grand Slam. I'm sure if such player existed he'll be remembered fondly by fans and colleagues.
And like that tennis player he won't be remembered. Maybe for a bit, but in the grand scheme of things not at all. You have to win stuff to be remembered. Snow has just not done that. He might be remembered by other gamers, but that's about it.
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On August 17 2023 23:06 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 23:01 TMNT wrote:On August 17 2023 21:58 Kaolla wrote:On August 17 2023 21:44 TMNT wrote:On August 17 2023 21:19 Kaolla wrote:
Look at Sea being a great player in Proleague, who remembers him? No one, he didnt accomplish anything. No leagues won is just a crappy player, that's the way ppl look at it and imo it's also right. Sea wasn't that great, he was ok by his teams standards, did win a lot, but yea... Snow.. I mean he might be the worst underperformer ever, if he wants any recognition he has to win ASL. He's recognized by no other than his colleagues, fellow progamers, casters etc. Ask them who is one of the best Protosses in the modern era, who has the best Reaver control in history, who is always one of the last picks in ASL Ro16 group nomination. For once, if Artosis continues repeating he has the best PvT in history, lots of people will buy into it, whether it's true or not. Who are the "people" that look at it the way you described, or you're just voicing your personal opinion? I'm sure there are other people who think like you. But it's a pity that our people > your people. It doesn't matter what Artosis says and if he can beat Artosis with scouts, he's definitely good, that's not the point. It's just when asked about good players, he will never be in people's minds. Just like Sea wouldn't make any terran top 10 list despite all his best efforts back in the days. Titiles are important in this and Snow doesn't have one and in general is just a shitty player in (televised) tournaments. He won't be remembered, Stork and Bisu will go down as much better players, despite Snow actually being better now. And I mean you can even add Mini to the list. I think Snow is a much better player but it doesn't matter, Snow always fails. I have to ask you again, who are the people you're referring to? Because if you're into the Korean scene, you'll know that no one cares about JYJ even now let alone in the future. Royal will probaby be treated the same, unless they win a couple more. But many will remember Snow and his reaver. Snow must be the equivalent of a tennis player who spends many weeks at the top of the ATP ranking, has the best drop shot in the history of the game, but never won a Grand Slam. I'm sure if such player existed he'll be remembered fondly by fans and colleagues. And like that tennis player he won't be remembered. Maybe for a bit, but in the grand scheme of things not at all. You have to win stuff to be remembered. Snow has just not done that. He might be remembered by other gamers, but that's about it.
No one was arguing about Snow being remembered. We're talking about his skill.
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On August 17 2023 23:14 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 23:06 Kaolla wrote:On August 17 2023 23:01 TMNT wrote:On August 17 2023 21:58 Kaolla wrote:On August 17 2023 21:44 TMNT wrote:On August 17 2023 21:19 Kaolla wrote:
Look at Sea being a great player in Proleague, who remembers him? No one, he didnt accomplish anything. No leagues won is just a crappy player, that's the way ppl look at it and imo it's also right. Sea wasn't that great, he was ok by his teams standards, did win a lot, but yea... Snow.. I mean he might be the worst underperformer ever, if he wants any recognition he has to win ASL. He's recognized by no other than his colleagues, fellow progamers, casters etc. Ask them who is one of the best Protosses in the modern era, who has the best Reaver control in history, who is always one of the last picks in ASL Ro16 group nomination. For once, if Artosis continues repeating he has the best PvT in history, lots of people will buy into it, whether it's true or not. Who are the "people" that look at it the way you described, or you're just voicing your personal opinion? I'm sure there are other people who think like you. But it's a pity that our people > your people. It doesn't matter what Artosis says and if he can beat Artosis with scouts, he's definitely good, that's not the point. It's just when asked about good players, he will never be in people's minds. Just like Sea wouldn't make any terran top 10 list despite all his best efforts back in the days. Titiles are important in this and Snow doesn't have one and in general is just a shitty player in (televised) tournaments. He won't be remembered, Stork and Bisu will go down as much better players, despite Snow actually being better now. And I mean you can even add Mini to the list. I think Snow is a much better player but it doesn't matter, Snow always fails. I have to ask you again, who are the people you're referring to? Because if you're into the Korean scene, you'll know that no one cares about JYJ even now let alone in the future. Royal will probaby be treated the same, unless they win a couple more. But many will remember Snow and his reaver. Snow must be the equivalent of a tennis player who spends many weeks at the top of the ATP ranking, has the best drop shot in the history of the game, but never won a Grand Slam. I'm sure if such player existed he'll be remembered fondly by fans and colleagues. And like that tennis player he won't be remembered. Maybe for a bit, but in the grand scheme of things not at all. You have to win stuff to be remembered. Snow has just not done that. He might be remembered by other gamers, but that's about it. No one was arguing about Snow being remembered. We're talking about his skill.
I was, it's no doubt he's a great player that is not the point at all, read previous posts. This feels like you've skipped out on all of the conversation.
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EPT
