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[ASL16] Ro24 Group C - Page 10

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4987 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-18 11:22:09
August 18 2023 11:11 GMT
#181
Tbf Bisu did go carriers that game and thus still giving Flash a win

With Shuttle vs Royal, while it wouldn't have been auto-win for Shuttle if the crowd didn't interfere, I feel like it would be silly to say the interference didn't (significantly) decrease Shuttle's chance. Unlike Flash, Shuttle didn't win. It's commendable Shuttle put out any potential fires.

I mentioned booth in an earlier post, because I imagine it's better than nothing at all. I believe it's something ASL could invest in given we're on the 16th edition already.
FBH #1!
Smorrie
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands2922 Posts
August 18 2023 16:47 GMT
#182
Honestly, I don't really see the problem. Fans can like whoever they like. Ironically, I'd say trying to enforce who people should hold in higher regard is the actual issue ^_^;

Skill level benchmarks just aren't very impactful for one's legacy - that's the discussion I tuned into. Even though it appears it's difficult to separate these from each other and the discussion easily gets clouded.

Winning an OSL/ASL isn't the be all and end all, but it generally does a lot more for one's legacy. It's what people remember most and what goes down in the history books.

Do you honestly remember who were top contenders near the end of the KESPA era? I wouldn't know. I know Flash & JD duked it out. JD had a killer final in MSL with a controversial power outage. Fantasy finally won an OSL when Flash & JD got eliminated. JangBi won an OSL and added himself to the elite protoss ranks. What about other players in that era? I honestly can not recall any proleague records, except for some generic narratives. That's the power of winning the most prestigious tournaments.
It has a strong technique, but it lacks oo.
RJBTV
Profile Joined December 2022
194 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-18 17:15:42
August 18 2023 17:11 GMT
#183
On August 19 2023 01:47 Smorrie wrote:
Honestly, I don't really see the problem. Fans can like whoever they like. Ironically, I'd say trying to enforce who people should hold in higher regard is the actual issue ^_^;

Skill level benchmarks just aren't very impactful for one's legacy - that's the discussion I tuned into. Even though it appears it's difficult to separate these from each other and the discussion easily gets clouded.

Winning an OSL/ASL isn't the be all and end all, but it generally does a lot more for one's legacy. It's what people remember most and what goes down in the history books.

Do you honestly remember who were top contenders near the end of the KESPA era? I wouldn't know. I know Flash & JD duked it out. JD had a killer final in MSL with a controversial power outage. Fantasy finally won an OSL when Flash & JD got eliminated. JangBi won an OSL and added himself to the elite protoss ranks. What about other players in that era? I honestly can not recall any proleague records, except for some generic narratives. That's the power of winning the most prestigious tournaments.


or it is a sign of a bad memory .
We weren't talking about being allowed to like someone or not, we're talking about saying someone is bad when they clearly are not, simply because they refuse to acknowledge more than one benchmark. you missed the point there xd. Likewise are the Kespa era achievements still relevant in ranking today's players? I think they aren't. They are relevant when talking about Kespa era achievements.
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3357 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-18 17:29:42
August 18 2023 17:28 GMT
#184
btw I m sorry if this whole side discussion started due to my little banter at my fellow active TL-er regarding snow s skill and prediction coming into this ASL. I intended it mostly in jest.

Him losing wrecked my liquibet as well (again).
Snow has amazing reaver control and is a great Protoss now. I wouldnt consider him the best protoss ever or even top 5, but it s because I started watching pro BW a while ago and I ve seen a lot of things, possibly nostalgia tinted or also due to the fact the scene was a bit more intense back then in the KeSPA era. I would absolutely consider him in the top 3 post kespa P for sure (with Rain and Bisu).

Kespa achievements are relevant if you start bringing up discussions about "best of all time" because all time includes Kespa and also the "dark years" before ASL. SSL was not quite the same skillwise though.
The game has changed a lot since then, so it would be fairer to split achievements between Kespa era, and ASL/KSL era.
Horang2 fan
Smorrie
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands2922 Posts
August 18 2023 18:12 GMT
#185
You guys are pivoting around the point a lot. Nobody said Snow is a bad player, not even the bait posts that sparked the discussion.

I tried to support a valid claim made earlier in this thread which got collectively disregarded, partially due to the tone of voice and misinterpretation.

I'm missing your point because you are having side discussions of your own. Just like your (straw man) argument regarding JD and Queen. You'll have a very difficult time finding people on TL who think JD is still the top dog, as well as people who do not regard Queen as an elite player. I'd say even say that outside of TL these people are a very small minority.

Let me reverse the argument;
If Snow wins ASL, do you think it will have any significant impact on his current perceived greatness and his future legacy?
It has a strong technique, but it lacks oo.
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8091 Posts
August 18 2023 18:21 GMT
#186
On August 18 2023 20:11 Peeano wrote:
Tbf Bisu did go carriers that game and thus still giving Flash a win

With Shuttle vs Royal, while it wouldn't have been auto-win for Shuttle if the crowd didn't interfere, I feel like it would be silly to say the interference didn't (significantly) decrease Shuttle's chance. Unlike Flash, Shuttle didn't win. It's commendable Shuttle put out any potential fires.

I mentioned booth in an earlier post, because I imagine it's better than nothing at all. I believe it's something ASL could invest in given we're on the 16th edition already.


Yea I always thought it was strange that ASL never had the same soundproofing equipment that KESPA used but now we have a pretty clear-cut case of the lack of said equipment directly affecting the outcome of a game. It's really about time ASL installs some soundproof booths on their set to avoid this going forward.
Free Palestine
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19230 Posts
August 18 2023 19:12 GMT
#187
On August 19 2023 03:12 Smorrie wrote:
You guys are pivoting around the point a lot. Nobody said Snow is a bad player, not even the bait posts that sparked the discussion.

I tried to support a valid claim made earlier in this thread which got collectively disregarded, partially due to the tone of voice and misinterpretation.

I'm missing your point because you are having side discussions of your own. Just like your (straw man) argument regarding JD and Queen. You'll have a very difficult time finding people on TL who think JD is still the top dog, as well as people who do not regard Queen as an elite player. I'd say even say that outside of TL these people are a very small minority.

Let me reverse the argument;
If Snow wins ASL, do you think it will have any significant impact on his current perceived greatness and his future legacy?

Absolutely. Breaking the barriers that have kept him from winning it all would be huge. Same for BeSt.

For some of us, we don’t have time to watch every minute of BW, so the ASL is the definitive tournament to define legacy and greatness in this era. I love this tournament regardless of its potential cons or prizepool.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2682 Posts
August 18 2023 19:38 GMT
#188
On August 19 2023 02:28 WGT-Baal wrote:
btw I m sorry if this whole side discussion started due to my little banter at my fellow active TL-er regarding snow s skill and prediction coming into this ASL. I intended it mostly in jest.

It's not you. It's the guy I'm about to "condemn" below.

On August 19 2023 03:12 Smorrie wrote:
Nobody said Snow is a bad player, not even the bait posts that sparked the discussion.

Are you sure? Here's a collection of that guy's words in this thread:

On August 16 2023 19:56 Kaolla wrote:
I mean I do think Royal is a cheese terran anyway

Snow losing in the RO24... Seriously, how can anyone take this guy seriously.... Best PvT... yea, right, best choker in the game.

Royal got through somewhat lucky in the RO24, nothing special about that? The dude really is nothing special. He beat a B-tier player today, yay, definitely is not on the level of the elites, but yea, we'll see that in the rest of ASL. Not sure what other terran you mean, but Jyj sure seems more impressive to me.

He can be the best everywhere, as long as he doesn't win ASL, he's nothing.

No leagues won is just a crappy player

Titiles are important in this and Snow doesn't have one and in general is just a shitty player in (televised) tournaments

Actually I didn't notice he called Royal a cheese player (probably because Royal cheesed a few times in his run to his ASL title). Proved that this guy has no clue about the current scene. He just watches ASL and thinks he knows it all.
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2682 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-18 20:08:45
August 18 2023 20:08 GMT
#189
On August 19 2023 03:12 Smorrie wrote:
I tried to support a valid claim made earlier in this thread which got collectively disregarded, partially due to the tone of voice and misinterpretation.

I've read through what you said and nothing much to disagree. But the "valid claim" you support is non-existent.

Here's that claim by Kaolla:
He can be the best everywhere, as long as he doesn't win ASL, he's nothing.


How is that equal to your argument:
If Snow wins ASL, do you think it will have any significant impact on his current perceived greatness and his future legacy?

which is more or less in agreement with Magic Power:
I'm arguing that, while an ASL title means a player IS in fact accomplished, the lack of an ASL title does not mean that they're NOT accomplished.


Now come to think of it, I have to say Kaolla's argument is outright stupid, bordering on trollpost.
TornadoSteve
Profile Joined March 2018
1016 Posts
August 18 2023 20:44 GMT
#190
no more upsets tho
light action rush bisu zero jd to the next round plz.
Smorrie
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands2922 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-18 21:19:26
August 18 2023 21:12 GMT
#191
On August 19 2023 04:38 TMNT wrote:
Actually I didn't notice he called Royal a cheese player (probably because Royal cheesed a few times in his run to his ASL title). Proved that this guy has no clue about the current scene. He just watches ASL and thinks he knows it all.


I agree Royal is not defined by cheese play. He did have quite some cheese openings through his ASL run though. I'd argue that all those openers were part of a calculated tournament strategy to not become too predictable and survive all the way to the end, even though that's just pure speculation.

Aside from that, I also agree there are quite some baits posted lol... before those posts there are some gems to be found in the thread... your average ASL viewer ^_^;;;

ASL titles mean everything. Just like OSL and MSL (lesser) titles meant everything in the past. Jyj and Shuttle, and even Royal, will go down in history bigger than Snow and Sea for that matter. That's just the way it is.


^ that's what resonated with me originally


How is that equal to your argument:
Show nested quote +
If Snow wins ASL, do you think it will have any significant impact on his current perceived greatness and his future legacy?


which is more or less in agreement with Magic Power:
Show nested quote +
I'm arguing that, while an ASL title means a player IS in fact accomplished, the lack of an ASL title does not mean that they're NOT accomplished.



Fair point - I think it still has its own subtle difference, but I mainly wanted to offer a different perspective. Ultimately though, that quote is from a post from before I actively entered the discussion and it was not on my radar.

I think SoulKey, Soma & Hero are in a similar predicament. They are all waiting to catch momentum where they rise above and become able to force their will upon their opponents at any time & make a mark in the history books. Snow appears to be the guy closest to making that happen right now, but has been failing to do so. Until then they are all just amongst the 'greatest players', waiting to join the legendary ranks of players like ZerO, JD, Bisu, etc.

I have extensively exceeded my annual post capacity though - I need to go back into lurking, these useless discussions are a terrible way to use my limited time >_<
It has a strong technique, but it lacks oo.
TornadoSteve
Profile Joined March 2018
1016 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-18 21:44:54
August 18 2023 21:44 GMT
#192
On the other hand, choking onstage (unable to perform under pressure, "when it matter") should affect a player popularity and his overall skill, rightfully so.
Since Flash went to army, Snow was aiming at his throne and, unfortunately, with all those offline performance, hes not there yet. #1 contender obviously, at least in my opinion, but he needs to step up kind of like Light did from ASL 4,5 KSL 3,4 etc
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
August 19 2023 00:26 GMT
#193
On August 19 2023 03:21 Ideas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2023 20:11 Peeano wrote:
Tbf Bisu did go carriers that game and thus still giving Flash a win

With Shuttle vs Royal, while it wouldn't have been auto-win for Shuttle if the crowd didn't interfere, I feel like it would be silly to say the interference didn't (significantly) decrease Shuttle's chance. Unlike Flash, Shuttle didn't win. It's commendable Shuttle put out any potential fires.

I mentioned booth in an earlier post, because I imagine it's better than nothing at all. I believe it's something ASL could invest in given we're on the 16th edition already.


Yea I always thought it was strange that ASL never had the same soundproofing equipment that KESPA used but now we have a pretty clear-cut case of the lack of said equipment directly affecting the outcome of a game. It's really about time ASL installs some soundproof booths on their set to avoid this going forward.


How about a rule which says fans/casters need to STFU and stay silent during those type of moments? Problems ez solved.
sunbeams are never made like me...
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
2842 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-19 02:54:24
August 19 2023 02:52 GMT
#194
I just wish people would make more insightful posts about the games and bicker less about the players.

Yes, we get it, you think SnOw is great and you do not. Nothing is ever gained by waging a 10 page forum argument. People are just left exhausted and angry and those who came for neutral discussion are discouraged. Fandom is subjective. Valid arguments exist in both directions. Let's move on.
aka wilted_kale
RJBTV
Profile Joined December 2022
194 Posts
August 19 2023 11:14 GMT
#195
On August 19 2023 06:12 Smorrie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2023 04:38 TMNT wrote:
Actually I didn't notice he called Royal a cheese player (probably because Royal cheesed a few times in his run to his ASL title). Proved that this guy has no clue about the current scene. He just watches ASL and thinks he knows it all.


I agree Royal is not defined by cheese play. He did have quite some cheese openings through his ASL run though. I'd argue that all those openers were part of a calculated tournament strategy to not become too predictable and survive all the way to the end, even though that's just pure speculation.

Aside from that, I also agree there are quite some baits posted lol... before those posts there are some gems to be found in the thread... your average ASL viewer ^_^;;;

Show nested quote +
ASL titles mean everything. Just like OSL and MSL (lesser) titles meant everything in the past. Jyj and Shuttle, and even Royal, will go down in history bigger than Snow and Sea for that matter. That's just the way it is.


^ that's what resonated with me originally

Show nested quote +

How is that equal to your argument:
If Snow wins ASL, do you think it will have any significant impact on his current perceived greatness and his future legacy?


which is more or less in agreement with Magic Power:
I'm arguing that, while an ASL title means a player IS in fact accomplished, the lack of an ASL title does not mean that they're NOT accomplished.



Fair point - I think it still has its own subtle difference, but I mainly wanted to offer a different perspective. Ultimately though, that quote is from a post from before I actively entered the discussion and it was not on my radar.

I think SoulKey, Soma & Hero are in a similar predicament. They are all waiting to catch momentum where they rise above and become able to force their will upon their opponents at any time & make a mark in the history books. Snow appears to be the guy closest to making that happen right now, but has been failing to do so. Until then they are all just amongst the 'greatest players', waiting to join the legendary ranks of players like ZerO, JD, Bisu, etc.

I have extensively exceeded my annual post capacity though - I need to go back into lurking, these useless discussions are a terrible way to use my limited time >_<


I would argue Hero has been closest out of anyone going by the consistency in his somewhat recent results over all his tournaments.
ASL15 top 4.
ASL 14 top 4.
ASL 13 top 16
ASL 12 3rd.
ASL 11 3rd.
ASL 10 Top 16
(military break)
ASL 5 3rd.
ASL 4 2nd.
ASL 3 top 16.
ASL 2 top 8.
ASL 1 top 8.
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3357 Posts
August 19 2023 13:25 GMT
#196
On August 19 2023 09:26 outscar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2023 03:21 Ideas wrote:
On August 18 2023 20:11 Peeano wrote:
Tbf Bisu did go carriers that game and thus still giving Flash a win

With Shuttle vs Royal, while it wouldn't have been auto-win for Shuttle if the crowd didn't interfere, I feel like it would be silly to say the interference didn't (significantly) decrease Shuttle's chance. Unlike Flash, Shuttle didn't win. It's commendable Shuttle put out any potential fires.

I mentioned booth in an earlier post, because I imagine it's better than nothing at all. I believe it's something ASL could invest in given we're on the 16th edition already.


Yea I always thought it was strange that ASL never had the same soundproofing equipment that KESPA used but now we have a pretty clear-cut case of the lack of said equipment directly affecting the outcome of a game. It's really about time ASL installs some soundproof booths on their set to avoid this going forward.


How about a rule which says fans/casters need to STFU and stay silent during those type of moments? Problems ez solved.


As former staff/admin in big events with booths and public, let me tell you that this is always squarely the organizer s responsibility. ASL dropped the ball hard on that one, especially since better booth have been a thing almost literally anywhere else.
You cannot control fan's behaviour as a live audience (and shouldn't) and also the casters are here to entertain and be excited, or else what s the point?
The problem is indeed easily solved ... by better booths
Horang2 fan
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10007 Posts
August 19 2023 16:58 GMT
#197
picking snow + soulkey on fantasy teams = eternal pain
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
moktira *
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Ireland1543 Posts
August 22 2023 10:53 GMT
#198
As a Protoss fan I'm feeling pretty low so far, Mini barely deserved to qualify in group A, Rain is gone, Snow, what the hell? Didn't even win one game, so disappointing... I'm a huge Bisu fan but been let down so much by him I just don't have any faith anymore, so all that's left is BeSt who always seems to choke.

I guess there's Free but don't see him getting out of his group -- though I'm one of these people who pretty much only follows ASLs now so he could be on form.
If in doubt, differentiate and set equal to zero
M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4116 Posts
August 22 2023 12:19 GMT
#199
Its really weird to me that some of you guys even consider to compare Kespa with this era skill wise. Large player base with constant new talent incoming, playing in teams with coaches with schedules in special headquarters vs half time streamers, many of them being family guys with kids who prepare few days before the tournaments however they can. Like seriously?

p.s. of course since we can never have kespa vs nowadays tested everything is just an opinion, but prime Kespa will wipe the floor with nowadays players imo
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11047 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-24 19:57:03
August 24 2023 19:30 GMT
#200
I am unbelievably salty about game 1

….

I am the Dead Sea. Feels like 2013.

Man 2 asls a year for this is kinda killing me. Bleh I just want more snow not these b tier terrans and zergs. Not a good start to the ro24

Wish the tastosis stream did more than a 2x a year tournament.
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
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