I was, it's no doubt he's a great player that is not the point at all, read previous posts. This feels like you've skipped out on all of the conversation.
Your previous posts contain some shocking assessments about Snow, including "not good enough", "he's nothing", "a crappy player", "just a shitty player in (televised) tournaments".
If no ASL (even if you're 2 times runner-up lol) = shitty player, then ASL contains of mostly shitty players, including Bisu Jaedong and Stork. Don't try to argue that they won OSL/MSL. They were a god 15 years ago. What I'm saying is now they are just shit.
On the other hand you also did write that Snow is a great player and better than Bisu and Stork now. So I find your posts very confusing to say the least.
On August 17 2023 22:43 Postaljester_ wrote: PvZ is a lame matchup. Players are too good to have only side scouting
Don't lose scouting probe to slow lings.
That is up the Zerg player messing up. Not blocking ramp or just being lazy and having the lings following the probe. If the Zerg wants that probe is either dead or never getting up the ramp in the first place.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if daily proleague had Light and, instead of all the "new blood" Terrans (Rush, Royal, JyJ), Flash, Last and Fantasy (whom I consider a natural talent and not just some grinder like many of his colleagues). Would be very interested to see the results then.
On August 17 2023 22:23 RJBTV wrote: it is really just some foreigners who put this much weight into an ASL title and ignore other tournaments with efffevtively the exact same players in it. Look at starcast new worlds. who made it to the top 8? look at past castermuse starleague seasons. those had the same players as ASL at the time did. are we going to ignore that too? ASL does have the most production quality invested into it, but winning ASL does not make one better than winning another tournament with the same players. Its just being narrow and closed minded with your eyes wide shut to ignore those. Light was the best player in 2020 but won no ASL in 2020. He dominated everything else in fashion even better than flash did. Right now Snow is doing the same thing. He is dominating everything except ASL.
One of the reasons I'm maintaining the mega proleague thread here is because in the past I was frustrated many times when I saw some foreigners misjudging players because the only thing they watch is ASL, and they deduce everything based on a few isolated games there.
For example, one common misconception back then was how everyone thought Mini's PvZ was next level to Bisu after he 4-1 Queen twice in ASL, without knowing that he was kind of a bogeyman to Queen and his PvZ overall even at that time did not match the hype from the 4-1.
But oh well, for some people ASL will always be the only thing they can fathom. Even when you show it to their eyes they choose to close them. What else can you do?
On August 18 2023 00:00 Nirli wrote: It would be interesting to see what would happen if daily proleague had Light and, instead of all the "new blood" Terrans (Rush, Royal, JyJ), Flash, Last and Fantasy (whom I consider a natural talent and not just some grinder like many of his colleagues). Would be very interested to see the results then.
I assume you're implying that Snow will perform worse. And you're not wrong, his PvT won't look like this anymore. But the likes of Bisu Mini and Best will even have a harder time. But guess who will suffer the most? Zergs. JD will just move to K League full time lol.
On August 18 2023 00:00 Nirli wrote: It would be interesting to see what would happen if daily proleague had Light and, instead of all the "new blood" Terrans (Rush, Royal, JyJ), Flash, Last and Fantasy (whom I consider a natural talent and not just some grinder like many of his colleagues). Would be very interested to see the results then.
I assume you're implying that Snow will perform worse. And you're not wrong, his PvT won't look like this anymore. But the likes of Bisu Mini and Best will even have a harder time. But guess who will suffer the most? Zergs. JD will just move to K League full time lol.
I do believe that Z players get together at secret meetings to discuss strategy. And I'm not sure Protoss players do that. Again, the major issue with Protoss is lack of new talent. At least Z have Soma (whom I find overrated but very impressive considering he wasn't part of the KeSPA days). I would prefer if P stepped up their game and actually consider Rain the best prospect for P but he isn't really trying, I think.
On August 17 2023 22:43 Postaljester_ wrote: PvZ is a lame matchup. Players are too good to have only side scouting
Don't lose scouting probe to slow lings.
That is up the Zerg player messing up. Not blocking ramp or just being lazy and having the lings following the probe. If the Zerg wants that probe is either dead or never getting up the ramp in the first place.
No. Losing probe to slow lings is usually the protoss player messing up. Losing your probe to slow lings is also usually a multitasking issue as the probe should never stop moving. Keeping your probe alive and knowing when to click on minerals at home to get out of sticky situations vs slow lings is an art form. Some are better at it than others, just like some are better at catching probe with slow lings than others. Zergs usually don't go speed first when going 9-7-3. Zergs also usually don't go speed first when going lair. Keep your probe alive long enough to scout either of these so you aren't in the dark until corsair arrives.
On August 18 2023 00:00 Nirli wrote: It would be interesting to see what would happen if daily proleague had Light and, instead of all the "new blood" Terrans (Rush, Royal, JyJ), Flash, Last and Fantasy (whom I consider a natural talent and not just some grinder like many of his colleagues). Would be very interested to see the results then.
I assume you're implying that Snow will perform worse. And you're not wrong, his PvT won't look like this anymore. But the likes of Bisu Mini and Best will even have a harder time. But guess who will suffer the most? Zergs. JD will just move to K League full time lol.
I do believe that Z players get together at secret meetings to discuss strategy. And I'm not sure Protoss players do that. Again, the major issue with Protoss is lack of new talent. At least Z have Soma (whom I find overrated but very impressive considering he wasn't part of the KeSPA days). I would prefer if P stepped up their game and actually consider Rain the best prospect for P but he isn't really trying, I think.
It seems to me like Bisu, Mini, Snow and Best are all copying one another to some degree. Maybe even occasionally working together on strats and tactics. Major progress has been made in PvT by Snow, and having one matchup in which protoss can feel powerful seems like it could inspire a new wave of protoss players. They (B tier protoss) have a lot of catching up to do though, they're generally not skilled enough right now.
On August 17 2023 22:23 RJBTV wrote: it is really just some foreigners who put this much weight into an ASL title and ignore other tournaments with efffevtively the exact same players in it. Look at starcast new worlds. who made it to the top 8? look at past castermuse starleague seasons. those had the same players as ASL at the time did. are we going to ignore that too? ASL does have the most production quality invested into it, but winning ASL does not make one better than winning another tournament with the same players. Its just being narrow and closed minded with your eyes wide shut to ignore those. Light was the best player in 2020 but won no ASL in 2020. He dominated everything else in fashion even better than flash did. Right now Snow is doing the same thing. He is dominating everything except ASL.
One of the reasons I'm maintaining the mega proleague thread here is because in the past I was frustrated many times when I saw some foreigners misjudging players because the only thing they watch is ASL, and they deduce everything based on a few isolated games there.
For example, one common misconception back then was how everyone thought Mini's PvZ was next level to Bisu after he 4-1 Queen twice in ASL, without knowing that he was kind of a bogeyman to Queen and his PvZ overall even at that time did not match the hype from the 4-1.
But oh well, for some people ASL will always be the only thing they can fathom. Even when you show it to their eyes they choose to close them. What else can you do?
Amen to that. Im watching proleagues almost daily and it shows a lot about current skill / shape / confidence of players, also how matchups, builds and maps evolve etc.. Similar with KSL / ultimate battles. BO1 rounds in ASL are actually sad part of current SC:BW scene.
All top tier ASL participants generally are playing for recognition and legacy. It's the most prestigious tournament with relatively little (financial) incentive, while requiring a lot of preparation and effort.
Proleague doesn't come remotely close to ASL in terms of prestige and is centered around entertainment and financial incentives instead.
TMNT's proleague posts are a testament of that. It gets a lot less viewership (especially globally) and thus also coverage. People love to see their favorite players duke it out and keep track of form, but aside from a skill benchmark it doesn't do too much for legacy.
Obviously Snow is not a nobody, but his recent peak PvT reign has been way too short to have a meaningful impact on the long term perception of his legacy, especially when he keeps failing to perform when it matters most. Recency bias is very strong in some of these posts above. His current popularity is also heavily influenced by his streaming career.
Winning championships is what makes the greatest players. Even Messi's legacy got a huge boost after winning the world cup. Regardless of winning so many CL titles and Ballon d'Ors, for many this was the final hurdle he needed to overcome to consider him the true goat, even though he definitely was passed his peak form.
On August 18 2023 11:43 Smorrie wrote: All top tier ASL participants generally are playing for recognition and legacy. It's the most prestigious tournament with relatively little (financial) incentive, while requiring a lot of preparation and effort.
Proleague doesn't come remotely close to ASL in terms of prestige and is centered around entertainment and financial incentives instead.
TMNT's proleague posts are a testament of that. It gets a lot less viewership (especially globally) and thus also coverage. People love to see their favorite players duke it out and keep track of form, but aside from a skill benchmark it doesn't do too much for legacy.
Obviously Snow is not a nobody, but his recent peak PvT reign has been way too short to have a meaningful impact on the long term perception of his legacy, especially when he keeps failing to perform when it matters most. Recency bias is very strong in some of these posts above. His current popularity is also heavily influenced by his streaming career.
Winning championships is what makes the greatest players. Even Messi's legacy got a huge boost after winning the world cup. Regardless of winning so many CL titles and Ballon d'Ors, for many this was the final hurdle he needed to overcome to consider him the true goat, even though he definitely was passed his peak form.
Problem is no one is trying to say those online games from proleague, kcm, ultimate battle and other online tournaments are as important as ASL in terms of prestige. Look, Light even won 1 ASL and 1 KSL, and I'm sure if we talk about pure skill he's better than 3 of the early Terran bonjwas, but he won't go down in history placing above them in an all time greats ranking. We can say the same for Mini vs Stork.
What we're trying to say is it's very short-sighted for anyone, especially clueless foreigners who barely know anything inside the Korean scene apart from ASL, to base on ASL results and say this player or that player is "not good enough" (or other derivatives of the term). In fact, the real quality (both games and players) lies in the major proleague where it's essentially an all-star league consisting of only ASL Ro8 players. You can pick any proleague matchday to watch and the games are instantly better than the first 3 groups of this ASL, for example.
As for Snow's legacy, it has already been set with his playstyle and 2 times ASL runner-up in the past. His recent dominance in PvT just helps cement that. You can say not winning ASL puts a dent on his progamer CV, but saying the guy is nothing and won't be remembered because of that is utterly ignorant. If anything, the recency bias is strong everytime anyone knee-jerks to a single ASL game.
On August 17 2023 22:23 RJBTV wrote: it is really just some foreigners who put this much weight into an ASL title and ignore other tournaments with efffevtively the exact same players in it. Look at starcast new worlds. who made it to the top 8? look at past castermuse starleague seasons. those had the same players as ASL at the time did. are we going to ignore that too? ASL does have the most production quality invested into it, but winning ASL does not make one better than winning another tournament with the same players. Its just being narrow and closed minded with your eyes wide shut to ignore those. Light was the best player in 2020 but won no ASL in 2020. He dominated everything else in fashion even better than flash did. Right now Snow is doing the same thing. He is dominating everything except ASL.
One of the reasons I'm maintaining the mega proleague thread here is because in the past I was frustrated many times when I saw some foreigners misjudging players because the only thing they watch is ASL, and they deduce everything based on a few isolated games there.
For example, one common misconception back then was how everyone thought Mini's PvZ was next level to Bisu after he 4-1 Queen twice in ASL, without knowing that he was kind of a bogeyman to Queen and his PvZ overall even at that time did not match the hype from the 4-1.
But oh well, for some people ASL will always be the only thing they can fathom. Even when you show it to their eyes they choose to close them. What else can you do?
That's the prestige of ASL like RJBTV mentioned. The production quality and coverage is closest to OSL and MSL. Also, while I do follow daily PL, Players like hero + Show Spoiler [Daily PL spoiler] +
ironically he just performed a fat all-kill just yesterday - thanks again for keeping us up-to-date
, Action just perform well on stage while not being super active and/or amazing in PL.
Anyway. I wouldn't blame the average BW fan, with limited time, of choosing to just tune into ASL and living a lie about who the current best players are. There is always some bias on top of that too. They watch BW purely as entertainment and that's great.. As long as people don't think JyJ is a god level Terran for having an ASL gold, much like they shouldn't about Calm for his MSL gold, I'll be happy. If they choose to close their eyes... Well, they can be ignored ^^
On August 17 2023 22:23 RJBTV wrote: it is really just some foreigners who put this much weight into an ASL title and ignore other tournaments with efffevtively the exact same players in it. Look at starcast new worlds. who made it to the top 8? look at past castermuse starleague seasons. those had the same players as ASL at the time did. are we going to ignore that too? ASL does have the most production quality invested into it, but winning ASL does not make one better than winning another tournament with the same players. Its just being narrow and closed minded with your eyes wide shut to ignore those. Light was the best player in 2020 but won no ASL in 2020. He dominated everything else in fashion even better than flash did. Right now Snow is doing the same thing. He is dominating everything except ASL.
One of the reasons I'm maintaining the mega proleague thread here is because in the past I was frustrated many times when I saw some foreigners misjudging players because the only thing they watch is ASL, and they deduce everything based on a few isolated games there.
For example, one common misconception back then was how everyone thought Mini's PvZ was next level to Bisu after he 4-1 Queen twice in ASL, without knowing that he was kind of a bogeyman to Queen and his PvZ overall even at that time did not match the hype from the 4-1.
But oh well, for some people ASL will always be the only thing they can fathom. Even when you show it to their eyes they choose to close them. What else can you do?
That's the prestige of ASL like RJBTV mentioned. The production quality and coverage is closest to OSL and MSL. Also, while I do follow daily PL, Players like hero + Show Spoiler [Daily PL spoiler] +
ironically he just performed a fat all-kill just yesterday - thanks again for keeping us up-to-date
, Action just perform well on stage while not being super active and/or amazing in PL.
Anyway. I wouldn't blame the average BW fan, with limited time, of choosing to just tune into ASL and living a lie about who the current best players are. There is always some bias on top of that too. They watch BW purely as entertainment and that's great.. As long as people don't think JyJ is a god level Terran for having an ASL gold, much like they shouldn't about Calm for his MSL gold, I'll be happy. If they choose to close their eyes... Well, they can be ignored ^^
I think it's one thing to be ignorant and have opinions, it's entirely another thing to use inflammatory language and then to deny obvious facts when scrutinized by people who seem to know what they're talking about. Opinions and disagreements are fine, but the level of toxicity by haters is really out of proportion sometimes.
On August 18 2023 18:07 Peeano wrote: That's the prestige of ASL like RJBTV mentioned. The production quality and coverage is closest to OSL and MSL. Also, while I do follow daily PL, Players like hero + Show Spoiler [Daily PL spoiler] +
ironically he just performed a fat all-kill just yesterday - thanks again for keeping us up-to-date
, Action just perform well on stage while not being super active and/or amazing in PL.
Anyway. I wouldn't blame the average BW fan, with limited time, of choosing to just tune into ASL and living a lie about who the current best players are. There is always some bias on top of that too. They watch BW purely as entertainment and that's great.. As long as people don't think JyJ is a god level Terran for having an ASL gold, much like they shouldn't about Calm for his MSL gold, I'll be happy. If they choose to close their eyes... Well, they can be ignored ^^
I think it's one thing to be ignorant and have opinions, it's entirely another thing to use inflammatory language and then to deny obvious facts when scrutinized by people who seem to know what they're talking about. Opinions and disagreements are fine, but the level of toxicity by haters is really out of proportion sometimes.
I don't wanna go too far off topic with this, but there is always a report button in case some moderation is desired.
On August 18 2023 19:20 TMNT wrote: Snow is now calling 910 (ASL director) for the next ASL to be held online + Show Spoiler +
after he 3-0 Royal in the quarter and 4-0 Light in the semi of the NWSL
Lol. So being back on topic. Did you happen to hear anything (more) on Shuttle vs Royal and the crowd giving intel to Royal he shouldn't have. I'm really curious about this. While online play would really hurt the entertainment value of ASL it would ironically negate the crowd from giving away info to the players.
To add to the above, many foreign fans are living in the past and disregard present day talent in favor of praising Kespa era top talent. Many still hype up Bisu and Jaedong as if they are presently still the best in their respective races and often dont give credit where it is due. Queen, Last, Rain and Light for example deserve to be considered as ASL/KSL era greats. They have a wide variety of achievements. Yet people talk about Rain as some scrub for losing in ro24, as if he was never that good.
On August 18 2023 19:31 RJBTV wrote: To add to the above, many foreign fans are living in the past and disregard present day talent in favor of praising Kespa era top talent. Many still hype up Bisu and Jaedong as if they are presently still the best in their respective races and often dont give credit where it is due. Queen, Last, Rain and Light for example deserve to be considered as ASL/KSL era greats. They have a wide variety of achievements. Yet people talk about Rain as some scrub for losing in ro24, as if he was never that good.
My personal opinion is that Rain is quite overrated. I don't wish to deny his greatness here, but he is simply too make or break. I really don't like the narrative that he is an utter genius that can be back to top competition in a matter of 1-2 weeks of practice - or even without any practice at all - and thus be better than e.g. Bisu or JD are currently.
If people will overrate a player, naturally you'll get people who will underrate him and vice versa. The truth is neither of the extremes, which generally still leaves a lot of bandwidth lol
On August 18 2023 19:20 TMNT wrote: Snow is now calling 910 (ASL director) for the next ASL to be held online + Show Spoiler +
after he 3-0 Royal in the quarter and 4-0 Light in the semi of the NWSL
Lol. So being back on topic. Did you happen to hear anything (more) on Shuttle vs Royal and the crowd giving intel to Royal he shouldn't have. I'm really curious about this. While online play would really hurt the entertainment value of ASL it would ironically negate the crowd from giving away info to the players.
Nothing follows up apart from fans debating it really. Thankfully Shuttle quickly put water to any potential fire. Also it's not the first time something like this happened, even when they were playing in a booth:
(Flash can be seen annoyed af here lol, ironically he still won in the end)
EPT
hero 
