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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 22 2020 18:21 WombaT wrote:
As a relative noob, how is Soma so good as an amateur? Seems the rest of people doing well range from legendary pro gamers like Flash and at the lowest were at least on pro teams.
Soma has been around the scene for quite a while. He used to be fake jd afaik during fish days and I remember reading quite a bit about how he was managing (he'd take games off some expros, but not consistently). Also, there have been several players that did pretty ok in previous tournaments. The one that comes to mind is Olympus who beat Sea 2-0 and made Ro16 in SSL11 I believe. ZeLoT is another amateur too. But yes, having dedicated practice with the pros and being able to dedicate yourself to study the game pays off tremendously.
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On October 23 2020 02:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:If you are a 50 or 100 apm player, your multitasking will be limited, in the same way that any action you do in the game is limited. Pros all have 250+ apm as their natural apm. Most will have 300+ apm. They have more than enough raw apm. If we take your poor analogy, we have these cars that can go 250 mph and another that does 300 mph, the same 50 mph difference, and they are to drive down the city with plenty of sharp turns and awareness needed for multiple traffic situations. Which car is better? Neither, they both long surpassed the raw speed needed, it's other skills that take precedence and the speed is not a limiting factor. Today I watched Zero play. He consistently have 370-400 apm. When situations occured for multitasking, his apm drops. He of course is multitasking during that time. If there is a correlation between apm and multitasking, it is a negative correlation. This tells you everything you should need to know about using apm for pros as a signifier for multitasking. EDIT: Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 01:53 gg_hertzz wrote:
Okay, this is why I sometimes hate debating on the internet because people take things extremely literally. Obviously you cannot do many things at once because that would be against the laws of the universe, but for all intents of purpose “at once” in our context should be understood to mean a block of time. I shouldn’t have to explain that obviously you cannot create a zealot, train a worker, control a shuttle, and micro dragon with in the same nano second.
My point still stands, apm is strongly correlated with multitasking and multitasking is being able to do many things “at once”. How well one does it depends on other factors.
That is not multitasking. That is just cycling through your macro activities whilst microing. Not the same kind of "multitasking skill" that we were talking about where you are taking the advantage from multitasking better, reacting to harrass and punishing poorer multitasking. Which is a separate skill altogether that can be disentangled from apm. On a basic level you don't need that much apm to insert macro cycle into your micro. You can do that even with 100 apm. Lets say 200 apm arbitrarily to do so in a speedy manner. Which all pros easily surpass. Paying attention to factors outside of that is a different sort of "multitasking" altogether separate from apm. The multitasking we are talking about is more of an awareness skill, rather than a basic macro cycle skill.
dude
bottom line:
Someone with (real!) 300+ apm is way more likely to multitask better than someone with (real!) 150 apm
This all started off with some1 kinda claiming that "somas multitasking isnt that good" or smth.. and I doubt that. One reason do doubt it is if I watch a game and he has 300+ apm consistently and seemingly is on top of every battle and every harrassment is multitasking cant be thaaat bad.
Discussing on tl.net can be really strange at times.
No matter how hard u insist: As a general guide line (effective/real) high apm is definitely an indicator of multitasking ability.
I mean again it is not that hard to understand.
Actions Per Minute = Amount of different things you can do in a minute.
Multitasking = amount of different things you can do "at the same time"
OFC there is nuance and it is a very difficult/wide field.. but the general assumption that apm somehow relates to multitasking is SIMPLY true.
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Northern Ireland26635 Posts
On October 23 2020 10:31 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 02:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:If you are a 50 or 100 apm player, your multitasking will be limited, in the same way that any action you do in the game is limited. Pros all have 250+ apm as their natural apm. Most will have 300+ apm. They have more than enough raw apm. If we take your poor analogy, we have these cars that can go 250 mph and another that does 300 mph, the same 50 mph difference, and they are to drive down the city with plenty of sharp turns and awareness needed for multiple traffic situations. Which car is better? Neither, they both long surpassed the raw speed needed, it's other skills that take precedence and the speed is not a limiting factor. Today I watched Zero play. He consistently have 370-400 apm. When situations occured for multitasking, his apm drops. He of course is multitasking during that time. If there is a correlation between apm and multitasking, it is a negative correlation. This tells you everything you should need to know about using apm for pros as a signifier for multitasking. EDIT: On October 23 2020 01:53 gg_hertzz wrote:
Okay, this is why I sometimes hate debating on the internet because people take things extremely literally. Obviously you cannot do many things at once because that would be against the laws of the universe, but for all intents of purpose “at once” in our context should be understood to mean a block of time. I shouldn’t have to explain that obviously you cannot create a zealot, train a worker, control a shuttle, and micro dragon with in the same nano second.
My point still stands, apm is strongly correlated with multitasking and multitasking is being able to do many things “at once”. How well one does it depends on other factors.
That is not multitasking. That is just cycling through your macro activities whilst microing. Not the same kind of "multitasking skill" that we were talking about where you are taking the advantage from multitasking better, reacting to harrass and punishing poorer multitasking. Which is a separate skill altogether that can be disentangled from apm. On a basic level you don't need that much apm to insert macro cycle into your micro. You can do that even with 100 apm. Lets say 200 apm arbitrarily to do so in a speedy manner. Which all pros easily surpass. Paying attention to factors outside of that is a different sort of "multitasking" altogether separate from apm. The multitasking we are talking about is more of an awareness skill, rather than a basic macro cycle skill. dude bottom line: Someone with (real!) 300+ apm is way more likely to multitask better than someone with (real!) 150 apm This all started off with some1 kinda claiming that "somas multitasking isnt that good" or smth.. and I doubt that. One reason do doubt it is if I watch a game and he has 300+ apm consistently and seemingly is on top of every battle and every harrassment is multitasking cant be thaaat bad. Discussing on tl.net can be really strange at times. No matter how hard u insist: As a general guide line (effective/real) high apm is definitely an indicator of multitasking ability. I mean again it is not that hard to understand. Actions Per Minute = Amount of different things you can do in a minute. Multitasking = amount of different things you can do "at the same time" OFC there is nuance and it is a very difficult/wide field.. but the general assumption that apm somehow relates to multitasking is SIMPLY true.
No it isn’t, MouseDogDangerCat is correct here.
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you are thinking the statement
"APM somehow relates to multitasking" is not true?
Well let me tell you then that you are completely delusional and have no clue what your talking about.
APM does not EQUAL multitasking but is a (very) good indicator for it. I mean it is pretty simple on a basic level actually:
Lets make the most simple example that proves what I am saying is simply ture.
You have a player with 60 apm and a player with 240 actions per minute. Lets say the goal is to be at 4 different areas on the map during 1 minute as much as possible. If that is the goal OBVIOUSLY if the 240 apm guy devotes his actions to it he will be there 4 times more often during that minute than 60 apm guy.
It IS OBVIOUS that it DEPENDS on how u use your APM. But that is why I said B O T T O M L I N E & R E A L A P M
So the basic assumption that having higher APM increases your skill in terms of multitasking is ultimately just true. I dont know how you can not see/understand this. But the counter arguments are not convicing at all. As they basically are something like "but what if you dont use your APM on multitasking"
DUH!?..
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multitasking is a huge part of this game -especially on a pro level. So it goes without saying that after micro/macro multitasking is the 3rd thing you are most likely to achieve with increasing apm.
Once again you both are just missing the point. How you allocate your apm OBVIOUSLY is very important. If you do not allocate it at all to multitasking it obviously wont impact your multitasking.
But if you want to be good at this game u should allocate some amount of apm to it. Whilst also allocating sth to micro/macro.
Again of course theoretically a 150 apm guy could use 100 of his apm macro/micro and 50 apm on multitasking whilst a 350 apm could use 345 apm on his micro/macro and 5 apm on his multitasking.
But that is just a super aburd assupmtion.
So if you are saying "high apm does not automatically mean you are a the best/amazing at multitasking" I agree.
But if you are saying "high apm has no relation to multitasking and there is no connection whatsoever" I just massively disagree
because yo simly have to creat super unlikely and theoretical behaviour of players to achieve that this statement is true.
In reality it just is not true.
I do not understand how some1 can dispute that logic..
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I think you're missing the point, which is that at the pro level, differences in APM are not useful indicators of multi-tasking ability. This is because (as others have already stated) the pros all have at least the minimum APM needed for effective multi-tasking. Therefore, APM shouldn't factor into discussions about multitasking of pros.
The simple idea that APM has a relationship with multitasking is such a basic point that it's like saying you need hands to play Starcraft, as is the idea that the same APM can be used with different levels of efficiency. These are logically sound but moot points.
Anyway, as for Soma's multitasking, I'm guessing whoever thought Soma has comparatively poor multitasking was basing this idea off of the recent couple of games where he lost a lot of drones to single DTs. We can see every top zerg player making these kinds of mistakes from time to time though, so I don't think a couple of instances is enough evidence to support this argument.
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On October 23 2020 06:35 BigFan wrote:
BTW, am I the only one who thought Snow didn't play game 1 that badly? It's true that reavers might have been a better solution to break the contain, but even in the game I linked, Rain was unable to break Soulkey despite having reavers. Furthermore, there were several times where it really looked like Snow would finally be able to break Soma so maybe he thought he needed just another push to do it. Hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy sometimes to get caught up in the flow of things.
On October 21 2020 05:51 Djabanete wrote:
I didn't think Snow played that badly.
G1: Soma got a lot of mileage from the weird placement of his third. Snow built a lot of cannons thinking that Soma was going for low-economy muta pressure, but instead there were few mutas and a third base. By the time Snow scouted the third, Soma was already able to blockade Snow with lurkers. Snow is used to fighting lurker containment magnificently with goon+storm, but his economic deficit was pretty big since he only got his third and fourth bases going when Soma had his fourth and fifth bases going. I assume there's some reason he didn't get reavers; maybe the map is too big and open, I dunno. (By contrast, on Eclipse, reavers are great at contesting that last base in the upper left.) To me it looked like Snow playing a "big PvZ" style that generally serves him well, but Soma used a mind game early on to stay ahead on macro all the time.
No you are not the only one. At a certain point Snow's plan was simple --- break through, destroy one base, occupy it, and camp there until victory came. Snow had 5 bases, Soma had 7 --- Snow just had to make it 6 against 6 and he would win the late game. I agree that he probably felt he needed one good push, and he was focusing all his efforts on that.
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On October 23 2020 12:05 reincremate wrote:
I think you're missing the point, which is that at the pro level, differences in APM are not useful indicators of multi-tasking ability.
I never said they were.
On October 23 2020 12:05 reincremate wrote:
Anyway, as for Soma's multitasking, I'm guessing whoever thought Soma has comparatively poor multitasking was basing this idea off of the recent couple of games where he lost a lot of drones to single DTs. We can see every top zerg player making these kinds of mistakes from time to time though, so I don't think a couple of instances is enough evidence to support this argument.
Losing Drones to DTs is not the best metric to decide how good ones multitasking is, though..
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You two don't get it and are just repeating the same points without regard so I'll just leave the discussion with that you are completely delusional that you think you can judge a pro's multitasking ability by their APM.
You are confusing a measurement for the skill itself. Awareness, observing infomation, decision making, reaction time, attention that make up multitasking are largely separate from taking actions which is measured by apm. APM helps, same way that apm helps in taking actions, but it is only a measurement, and not a particularily meaningful measurement for anything in particular either.
Oh btw:
On October 23 2020 18:41 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 12:05 reincremate wrote:
I think you're missing the point, which is that at the pro level, differences in APM are not useful indicators of multi-tasking ability. I never said they were.
Why lie? The post that sparked this discussion.
On October 20 2020 21:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2020 20:54 ggsimida wrote:
game 1 just makes me yearn for old bisu. soma actually lost air control towards the mid-lategame (although soma dropped focus on it probably he knows hes up against snow who wouldn't be able to take advantage of it), his 6 and 12 expos was scantily defended. soma has shown that he reacts rather lately to harass and does not seem as great on the multitasking front. bisu on the hotseat would really have punished soma for those. oh and pretty willing to make reavers in lategame too like others have pointed out how they are vital. soma not great on the multitasking front? guy has 370apm as zerg ô_Ô
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Soma has superior mechanics compared to majority of the ex-pros. He also seems to take the time to plan his tournament games which makes him a gold caliber player. I'm not a fan becouse he is crushing everyone I am cheering for but the dude definitely earns the ASL champion title if he makes it.
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On October 24 2020 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:You two don't get it and are just repeating the same points without regard so I'll just leave the discussion with that you are completely delusional that you think you can judge a pro's multitasking ability by their APM. You are confusing a measurement for the skill itself. Awareness, observing infomation, decision making, reaction time, attention that make up multitasking are largely separate from taking actions which is measured by apm. APM helps, same way that apm helps in taking actions, but it is only a measurement, and not a particularily meaningful measurement for anything in particular either. Oh btw: Show nested quote +On October 23 2020 18:41 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 23 2020 12:05 reincremate wrote:
I think you're missing the point, which is that at the pro level, differences in APM are not useful indicators of multi-tasking ability. I never said they were. Why lie? The post that sparked this discussion. Show nested quote +On October 20 2020 21:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 20 2020 20:54 ggsimida wrote:
game 1 just makes me yearn for old bisu. soma actually lost air control towards the mid-lategame (although soma dropped focus on it probably he knows hes up against snow who wouldn't be able to take advantage of it), his 6 and 12 expos was scantily defended. soma has shown that he reacts rather lately to harass and does not seem as great on the multitasking front. bisu on the hotseat would really have punished soma for those. oh and pretty willing to make reavers in lategame too like others have pointed out how they are vital. soma not great on the multitasking front? guy has 370apm as zerg ô_Ô
Okay. So my assumption is:
A Zerg with 350+ apm; seemingly playing very very good has probably also pretty damn good multitasking.
Backing up the claim he probably has good multitasking by stating his high apm is NOT the same as saying higher apm EQUALS better multitasking because of high apm.
But it is still just true that a 150 apm amateur is very likely to have worse multitasking than a 350 apm pro.
Im getting a bit tired of this. So I will one last time say what my view is and just leave it at that because I do not really know what we are even talking about anymore/what the point of this stillis.
1) High APM does not EQUAL good multitasking
2) Having high APM means it is likely you are better at multitasking than a player with low(er) apm. The bigger the apm gap the more likely it is that you are better at multitasking
If you dont agree with it fine - then we just have to agree to disagree
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On October 24 2020 02:02 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
2) Having high APM means it is likely you are better at multitasking than a player with low(er) apm. The bigger the apm gap the more likely it is that you are better at multitasking
This is true between you and me. Not between top tier players, they all hover in the same apm range (or should I say above a certain apm treshold) in general and they all can multitask better than 99.9% of the player base anyway, so the difference is based on other factors. Several people elaborated on that.
For the record, I'd like some examples of Soma multitasking poorly or very well, this would be much better for the discussion than an argument about apm.
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Can't believe people are still arguing about APM in 2020...
I also really like how Snow was concerned about Soma's 2 hatch lair build that he felt the need to gas steal Soma...
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EPT
