[ASL10] Ro8 Day 2

On October 20 2020 12:48 ShloobeR wrote:
Dis gon be good

I'd like to see Soma win to see some FvZ in the semis, but I am sort of feeling Snow, this could have easily been a grand finals match though.

On October 20 2020 12:56 Shady Sands wrote:


Agreed, Soma and Snow are both potential finalists imo.

And FvZ would be sick. I really want to see how Flash plays PvZ

On October 20 2020 13:13 AttackZerg wrote:

I don't know how to find it, but he played a PvZ match with queen online this week.
G1, Flash does a giant two base attack, loses horribly. Looks terrible. Just looked bad.

G2, Flash completely crushes Queen in a standard PvZ with no gimmicks.
It was the most perfect PvZ I have seen in 2020.
He crushed him so bad, queen stopped playing with him, and bw for the day.
Queen when viewing the replay, noticed that flash killed him with exactly perfect probe saturation on three bases.

They both streamed, so it was a fantastic two monitor experience. Sorry I can't locate the games, but the korean language youtube channels are hard to wade threw.

On October 20 2020 13:50 RowdierBob wrote:


Any vods?

On October 20 2020 19:40 RKC wrote:
Christmas truce, please?

On October 20 2020 19:40 razorsuKe wrote:
This is a really great way for Z to play this map, although in the earlier part of the game when soma concentrated units at the bridge ramp, it felt like snow could have just walked north instead.

On October 20 2020 19:40 Dante08 wrote:
Soma's reluctant to build reavers is killing him

On October 20 2020 19:46 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
what are you guys talking about? Like.. really? it's Snow that played an AWFUL game, not SoMa that played an amazing one, imo.

Looked like he was a CPU that stopped working, constantly doing the same thing and expecting different results instead of going for some reavers..

I hope he is brain is not going to be blocked like this throughout this series..

On October 20 2020 19:51 jjmmtt wrote:


You don't get how difficult it is to macro, micro all the zerg units correctly, send the right units, the right number of units at the right time, making all the correct decisions to hold someone like Snow then. You think that was easy? Please.

On October 20 2020 19:59 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
what the actual fuck. . .

he didn't micro the cannon shots..

this is so painful to watch :C

On October 20 2020 20:01 jjmmtt wrote:


Maybe you should try qualifying for ASL.

On October 20 2020 20:02 BLinD-RawR wrote:

ok bye

On October 20 2020 20:01 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
i'm done, lol

just disgusting.

On October 20 2020 20:02 M3t4PhYzX wrote:

now why would you say something so incredibly idiotic now?

what? a progamer can never play terrible because he's a progamer?

that was really stupid and you should feel ashamed.

On October 20 2020 20:14 royalroadweed wrote:
Doesn't look good for flash. Soma's ZvP looks like the best in the world. His ZvZ is better than Flash's. There a chance he'd be favored in both ZvZ and ZvP vs Flash.

On October 20 2020 20:14 royalroadweed wrote:
Doesn't look good for flash. Soma's ZvP looks like the best in the world. His ZvZ is better than Flash's. There a chance he'd be favored in both ZvZ and ZvP vs Flash.

On October 20 2020 20:16 yoshi245 wrote:
That was a depressing series. Soma played immaculately, but Snow could've played better.

Well, I just hope Flash gets Terran in all of his games as Random against Soma. I don't think Flash's PvZ will handle it, and his ZvZ is up in the air.

On October 20 2020 20:17 oxKnu wrote:


Snow played at a level that is so low that it's not even worth bringing this into discussion.

I know Tastosis have a way to create hyperbole out of everything but this series did not indicate anything other than Snow playing incredibly poor (in all aspects of the game).

SoMa coming up with a cool gameplan is just a distant secondary point in all of this.

On October 20 2020 20:17 oxKnu wrote:


Snow played at a level that is so low that it's not even worth bringing this into discussion.

I know Tastosis have a way to create hyperbole out of everything but this series did not indicate anything other than Snow playing incredibly poor (in all aspects of the game).

SoMa coming up with a cool gameplan is just a distant secondary point in all of this.

On October 20 2020 20:19 BLinD-RawR wrote:


at least we're getting the results we wanted...by we I mean us staff who did predictions.

On October 20 2020 20:28 Highgamer wrote:
Well anywho, we got ourself one serious infestation in this iteration of ASL. I remember Zergs were pretty much written off a few months (or years?) ago as serious contenders, what happened?

On October 20 2020 20:28 Highgamer wrote:
Well anywho, we got ourself one serious infestation in this iteration of ASL. I remember Zergs were pretty much written off a few months (or years?) ago as serious contenders, what happened?

On October 20 2020 20:28 Highgamer wrote:
Well anywho, we got ourself one serious infestation in this iteration of ASL. I remember Zergs were pretty much written off a few months (or years?) ago as serious contenders, what happened?

On October 20 2020 20:35 Dante08 wrote:
Guys I don't think Snow played poorly in game 1 at all, Soma knew Snow tends to play safe by getting 3 base up and going into late game. Soma chose a brilliant spilt map strategy by parking his lurkers at the high ground above the bridges. Once he was set it is extremely hard for Protoss to break out. That strat wouldn't have worked if they played again.

Game 2 Snow should have added more cannons and game 3 well it speaks for itself.

On October 20 2020 20:54 ggsimida wrote:
game 1 just makes me yearn for old bisu. soma actually lost air control towards the mid-lategame (although soma dropped focus on it probably he knows hes up against snow who wouldn't be able to take advantage of it), his 6 and 12 expos was scantily defended. soma has shown that he reacts rather lately to harass and does not seem as great on the multitasking front. bisu on the hotseat would really have punished soma for those. oh and pretty willing to make reavers in lategame too like others have pointed out how they are vital.

On October 20 2020 21:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote:


soma not great on the multitasking front?
guy has 370apm as zerg ô_Ô

On October 20 2020 21:58 ggsimida wrote:


oh look another person who equates apm with ability to multitask or just trolling. bye.

On October 20 2020 21:58 ggsimida wrote:


oh look another person who equates apm with ability to multitask or just trolling. bye.

On October 20 2020 22:14 MaGic~PhiL wrote:


unless it is fake apm it is almost literally the definition of multitasking

instead of being a defensive douche you could bring arguments precisely why u think that somas multitasking is weak; I just completely disagree with ur sentiment

On October 21 2020 05:51 Djabanete wrote:
I didn't think Snow played that badly.

G1: Soma got a lot of mileage from the weird placement of his third. Snow built a lot of cannons thinking that Soma was going for low-economy muta pressure, but instead there were few mutas and a third base. By the time Snow scouted the third, Soma was already able to blockade Snow with lurkers. Snow is used to fighting lurker containment magnificently with goon+storm, but his economic deficit was pretty big since he only got his third and fourth bases going when Soma had his fourth and fifth bases going. I assume there's some reason he didn't get reavers; maybe the map is too big and open, I dunno. (By contrast, on Eclipse, reavers are great at contesting that last base in the upper left.) To me it looked like Snow playing a "big PvZ" style that generally serves him well, but Soma used a mind game early on to stay ahead on macro all the time.

G2: Hard to analyze. Snow used his units well and showed especially good micro against the first lurker bust. I thought he'd won when two lurkers died going in and the third lurker died with only 4 kills. Maybe Snow thought he'd won too. I dunno what he did wrong --- something about cannon placement and timing, rather than unit control? --- but few players react 100% optimally in weird situations.

G3: One tiny screw-up in micro and it's over. The moment I noticed was when the zealot in charge of the left side of the gateway was too far down to hit the lings that were hitting the gateway.

I wouldn't give Snow too terrible a grade over this. Remember that Soma 3-0'd Bisu last season and made him look bad, too. Soma plays mind games and he's good at them.

Korean fans have given nicknames to players like the Emperor or the Tyrant. In my mind, Soma is the Sorcerer. Confusion descends on his opponents; they don't know if the five mutas they're seeing are the heralds of 15 more mutas to come, or if instead Soma is building a third and a fourth in some weird location and building drones. Whichever it is, the five mutas somehow do twice as much damage as they're supposed to.

On October 21 2020 07:06 whaski wrote:



? It was 3-2 against Bisu. At least koreans seem to think Snow was playing badly, just look this for example http://bj.afreecatv.com/tmsh401/post/63257516

On October 21 2020 09:08 Ideas wrote:
Someone PLEASE explain to me why it wouldn't be a good idea for a protoss in Snow's position in game 1 (large econ, zerg using lots of lurkers for defense, snow still has 6-8 corsairs) to get dweb to help bust lurkers? I understand fleet beacon and dweb costs a bit of cash, but how many zeal/goon/templar did he waste trying to attack into those lurkers?

On October 20 2020 22:14 MaGic~PhiL wrote:


unless it is fake apm it is almost literally the definition of multitasking

instead of being a defensive douche you could bring arguments precisely why u think that somas multitasking is weak; I just completely disagree with ur sentiment

On October 21 2020 12:52 Magic Powers wrote:
Snow played well, people who bash him don't have the slightest clue how much went into Soma's preparation and it's also very disrespectful towards Soma to claim Snow played poorly. Of course he made mistakes, every pro makes mistakes. Sometimes you lose because you get caught off-guard or because of an understandable error in judgement, not neccessarily because you royally messed up as some people are saying.

In game 1 Snow got outclassed, it's as simple as that. He wasn't able to figure out a strong response to Soma's strategy and lost as a result. A lot of professional games look like that. Ask Flash, he's the master of outclassing his competition.

In game 2 Snow looked like he was quite well prepared but something went wrong with his preparation, or maybe the specific movement from Soma's units flowing in didn't go the way Snow expected. It looked like he could've prepared a little better for this, but anyone who thinks this is easy has no idea how complex the map is strategically. If you misjudge your opponent you can easily fall for a secret preparation.

In game 3 I can't really explain Snow's thought process, maybe he truly misjudged the situation. Maybe zerg really only had the option of massing zerglings.

This probably makes for one poor decision, all his other plays are quite understandable. People need to calm their tits, in a bo5 anything can happen. Since when can a very good pro not simply get outplayed these days? Sheesh. People didn't say that stuff about Savior either when he got steamrolled by Bisu who made him look like a chobo on that famous day (and he even openly announced long before the match that he'd be using his DT strategy, yet Savior still lost to it).

The backseat gamers in here every time a pro loses a bo5 lmao...

On October 21 2020 08:10 Djabanete wrote:

I totally misremembered the Bisu match, thanks for the correction.

As for what "koreans" think, there is a gulf between pros and fans. Fans are not necessarily fair-minded. I'm not able to follow your link atm.

BW is a game where you can easily look bad when you lose, that's all.

On October 21 2020 15:48 jjmmtt wrote:


People trashing Snow are very disrespectful to Soma's preparation and performance and to Snow's ability. Soma proved he has become a very strong Zerg in his own right and shouldn't be scoffed at, he has clearly improved immensely.

On October 20 2020 22:14 MaGic~PhiL wrote:


unless it is fake apm it is almost literally the definition of multitasking

instead of being a defensive douche you could bring arguments precisely why u think that somas multitasking is weak; I just completely disagree with ur sentiment

On October 21 2020 17:35 JieXian wrote:
Daaamn I'm so impressed with Soma right now. I'm extra happy to know that a relative newcomer has managed to attain this level of skill.



I've seen this happen so many times on TL. Every time someone played well, the (Big) fans + Show Spoiler +of the losing player focus on how their player played poorly instead of giving proper credit to the winning player.

On October 21 2020 09:39 Nukid wrote:
FlaSh will have a tough time against Soma. He need to get terran at least 2 time in order to win. In Z vs Z he mights take a game off Soma if buld order is in his favor. P vs Z I don't see him taking a game off Soma.

On October 21 2020 16:02 Vinh1 wrote:


I agree. You will look horribly bad when you loose a game. Saying Snow played bad equals to saying "Soma just got lucky".

In general, I think Snow is overrated in this forum. Soma 3-0 Snow in ASL 10, Flash 4-0 Snow in ASL 8, Rain 4-0 and 3-1 Snow in KSL 3 and 4, respectively. A great programmer cannot continuously loose like this.

On October 22 2020 08:17 QOGQOG wrote:

He's made it to the finals of ASL twice. Which is more than anyone but Flash.

Right now PvZ is tough. And it's Snow's worst matchup. And Soma was the worst opponent he could have gotten. So I don't think his "loose"ing means he's secretly terrible. Just a bit uneven and certainly unlucky.

Curious to see how Flash does. I thought he'd die as soon as he hit a top tier Zerg, but his performance improved a lot after TEN. Still, Soma will be a real challenge.

On October 22 2020 09:00 Vinh1 wrote:


Snow was eliminated at Round 16 three times as well ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Another toss player such as Rain does not have such an unstable record. Rain participated ASL only 3 times, he won 1, and made to quarter final and semi final in the other two seasons. .

I did not say Snow is bad, he is just not that hyped.

On October 22 2020 14:41 winson wrote:
Rain is better than Snow

On October 22 2020 14:41 winson wrote:
Rain is better than Snow

On October 22 2020 18:21 WombaT wrote:
As a relative noob, how is Soma so good as an amateur? Seems the rest of people doing well range from legendary pro gamers like Flash and at the lowest were at least on pro teams.

On October 22 2020 19:08 TornadoSteve wrote:
This is bs, if your results speak for itself youll make connection and relation yourself

On October 22 2020 19:19 evilfatsh1t wrote:
keep in mind almost every major pro came through the "courage tournament" so its safe to say soma was at least on par to any b-teamer in a pro team.

On October 22 2020 00:43 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
the definition of multitasking is literally how many different things you can do in a certain time frame

apm is how many things you can do in a certain time frame

so unless it is fake apm .. on a obviously very basica level it most certainly describes some form of capacity to multitask

On October 22 2020 19:08 TornadoSteve wrote:
This is bs, if your results speak for itself youll make connection and relation yourself

On October 22 2020 23:09 Dangermousecatdog wrote:

That's not what multitasking is, and that's not the defintion of APM either. They are two different concepts. A player with lower APM can and frequently does out-multitask a player with higher APM. Which according to you shouldn't be possible with your defintions. Multitasking is more of the deciding how to and allocating attention effectively. To split the focus of your attention. APM is part of that skillset, but you have confused the measurement for the skill and ability itself.

Example, all pros can micro a battle and macro at the same time. However a better multitasker with the same apm can do all that and scout and fight battles in two places at the same time, or pay attention to harrass and move his units around the map in response to another movement round the map, that leads to an advantge over the lesser multitasking player. Or to a lesser degree micro better by choosing when to macro at the appropriate times.

All pros have more than enough raw apm to multitask. It's 2020 not 2010. We can see them stream and play today, and we can see that they pretty much maintain the same APM when they are multitasking complex situations or just sitting in their base. If what you wrote was correct, we would see massive spikes in APM everytime a multitasking situation occurs, but that is not the case. Sometimes it even lowers.

On October 22 2020 23:42 gg_hertzz wrote:


Ops definition are right on. Multitasking is doing many things at once, and apm is the time you have to do those things. Someone that has high apm in theory has more time to do things because they are working at a faster pace. But there are other factors in how well one multitasks, such as judgement, timing, intuition, etc. The player playing at 400 apm should be able to do more than if he was playing at 200 apm, assuming all other factors are the same.

On October 23 2020 00:47 WombaT wrote:

You’re not doing many things at once, you’re doing singular things and then jumping to something else. And sometimes having to react to new information and make a decision (say in defending a drop)

Below a certain threshold yeah you can’t cycle through each task quickly enough, but parsing information and reacting quickly is also a bottleneck, and probably what separates the great BW multitaskers from the rest.

By want of a crude analogy, I can type at 144 wpm (well, when I wasn’t old and decrepit). Which is pretty high even amongst TLers, never mind the general populace.

I’m still probably getting out multitasked by some experienced admin people if we were to construct some kind of challenge there, even though I’m much faster at them at executing each task individually, they’d have a lot they could do on autopilot that I’d have to think about.

On October 23 2020 00:47 WombaT wrote:

You’re not doing many things at once, you’re doing singular things and then jumping to something else. And sometimes having to react to new information and make a decision (say in defending a drop)

Below a certain threshold yeah you can’t cycle through each task quickly enough, but parsing information and reacting quickly is also a bottleneck, and probably what separates the great BW multitaskers from the rest.

By want of a crude analogy, I can type at 144 wpm (well, when I wasn’t old and decrepit). Which is pretty high even amongst TLers, never mind the general populace.

I’m still probably getting out multitasked by some experienced admin people if we were to construct some kind of challenge there, even though I’m much faster at them at executing each task individually, they’d have a lot they could do on autopilot that I’d have to think about.

On October 23 2020 01:53 gg_hertzz wrote:
Okay, this is why I sometimes hate debating on the internet because people take things extremely literally. Obviously you cannot do many things at once because that would be against the laws of the universe, but for all intents of purpose “at once” in our context should be understood to mean a block of time. I shouldn’t have to explain that obviously you cannot create a zealot, train a worker, control a shuttle, and micro dragon with in the same nano second.

My point still stands, apm is strongly correlated with multitasking and multitasking is being able to do many things “at once”. How well one does it depends on other factors.

On October 23 2020 01:53 gg_hertzz wrote:


Okay, this is why I sometimes hate debating on the internet because people take things extremely literally. Obviously you cannot do many things at once because that would be against the laws of the universe, but for all intents of purpose “at once” in our context should be understood to mean a block of time. I shouldn’t have to explain that obviously you cannot create a zealot, train a worker, control a shuttle, and micro dragon with in the same nano second.

My point still stands, apm is strongly correlated with multitasking and multitasking is being able to do many things “at once”. How well one does it depends on other factors.

On October 23 2020 02:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
If you are a 50 or 100 apm player, your multitasking will be limited, in the same way that any action you do in the game is limited. Pros all have 250+ apm as their natural apm. Most will have 300+ apm. They have more than enough raw apm. If we take your poor analogy, we have these cars that can go 250 mph and another that does 300 mph, the same 50 mph difference, and they are to drive down the city with plenty of sharp turns and awareness needed for multiple traffic situations. Which car is better? Neither, they both long surpassed the raw speed needed, it's other skills that take precedence and the speed is not a limiting factor.

Today I watched Zero play. He consistently have 370-400 apm. When situations occured for multitasking, his apm drops. He of course is multitasking during that time. If there is a correlation between apm and multitasking, it is a negative correlation. This tells you everything you should need to know about using apm for pros as a signifier for multitasking.


EDIT:That is not multitasking. That is just cycling through your macro activities whilst microing. Not the same kind of "multitasking skill" that we were talking about where you are taking the advantage from multitasking better, reacting to harrass and punishing poorer multitasking. Which is a separate skill altogether that can be disentangled from apm.

On a basic level you don't need that much apm to insert macro cycle into your micro. You can do that even with 100 apm. Lets say 200 apm arbitrarily to do so in a speedy manner. Which all pros easily surpass. Paying attention to factors outside of that is a different sort of "multitasking" altogether separate from apm. The multitasking we are talking about is more of an awareness skill, rather than a basic macro cycle skill.

On October 22 2020 18:21 WombaT wrote:
As a relative noob, how is Soma so good as an amateur? Seems the rest of people doing well range from legendary pro gamers like Flash and at the lowest were at least on pro teams.

On October 23 2020 02:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
If you are a 50 or 100 apm player, your multitasking will be limited, in the same way that any action you do in the game is limited. Pros all have 250+ apm as their natural apm. Most will have 300+ apm. They have more than enough raw apm. If we take your poor analogy, we have these cars that can go 250 mph and another that does 300 mph, the same 50 mph difference, and they are to drive down the city with plenty of sharp turns and awareness needed for multiple traffic situations. Which car is better? Neither, they both long surpassed the raw speed needed, it's other skills that take precedence and the speed is not a limiting factor.

Today I watched Zero play. He consistently have 370-400 apm. When situations occured for multitasking, his apm drops. He of course is multitasking during that time. If there is a correlation between apm and multitasking, it is a negative correlation. This tells you everything you should need to know about using apm for pros as a signifier for multitasking.


EDIT:That is not multitasking. That is just cycling through your macro activities whilst microing. Not the same kind of "multitasking skill" that we were talking about where you are taking the advantage from multitasking better, reacting to harrass and punishing poorer multitasking. Which is a separate skill altogether that can be disentangled from apm.

On a basic level you don't need that much apm to insert macro cycle into your micro. You can do that even with 100 apm. Lets say 200 apm arbitrarily to do so in a speedy manner. Which all pros easily surpass. Paying attention to factors outside of that is a different sort of "multitasking" altogether separate from apm. The multitasking we are talking about is more of an awareness skill, rather than a basic macro cycle skill.

On October 23 2020 10:31 MaGic~PhiL wrote:



dude

bottom line:

Someone with (real!) 300+ apm is way more likely to multitask better than someone with (real!) 150 apm

This all started off with some1 kinda claiming that "somas multitasking isnt that good" or smth.. and I doubt that. One reason do doubt it is if I watch a game and he has 300+ apm consistently and seemingly is on top of every battle and every harrassment is multitasking cant be thaaat bad.


Discussing on tl.net can be really strange at times.

No matter how hard u insist: As a general guide line (effective/real) high apm is definitely an indicator of multitasking ability.

I mean again it is not that hard to understand.

Actions Per Minute = Amount of different things you can do in a minute.

Multitasking = amount of different things you can do "at the same time"


OFC there is nuance and it is a very difficult/wide field.. but the general assumption that apm somehow relates to multitasking is SIMPLY true.

On October 23 2020 06:35 BigFan wrote:
BTW, am I the only one who thought Snow didn't play game 1 that badly? It's true that reavers might have been a better solution to break the contain, but even in the game I linked, Rain was unable to break Soulkey despite having reavers. Furthermore, there were several times where it really looked like Snow would finally be able to break Soma so maybe he thought he needed just another push to do it. Hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy sometimes to get caught up in the flow of things.

On October 21 2020 05:51 Djabanete wrote:
I didn't think Snow played that badly.

G1: Soma got a lot of mileage from the weird placement of his third. Snow built a lot of cannons thinking that Soma was going for low-economy muta pressure, but instead there were few mutas and a third base. By the time Snow scouted the third, Soma was already able to blockade Snow with lurkers. Snow is used to fighting lurker containment magnificently with goon+storm, but his economic deficit was pretty big since he only got his third and fourth bases going when Soma had his fourth and fifth bases going. I assume there's some reason he didn't get reavers; maybe the map is too big and open, I dunno. (By contrast, on Eclipse, reavers are great at contesting that last base in the upper left.) To me it looked like Snow playing a "big PvZ" style that generally serves him well, but Soma used a mind game early on to stay ahead on macro all the time.

On October 23 2020 12:05 reincremate wrote:
I think you're missing the point, which is that at the pro level, differences in APM are not useful indicators of multi-tasking ability.

On October 23 2020 12:05 reincremate wrote:
Anyway, as for Soma's multitasking, I'm guessing whoever thought Soma has comparatively poor multitasking was basing this idea off of the recent couple of games where he lost a lot of drones to single DTs. We can see every top zerg player making these kinds of mistakes from time to time though, so I don't think a couple of instances is enough evidence to support this argument.

On October 23 2020 18:41 MaGic~PhiL wrote:


I never said they were.

On October 20 2020 21:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote:


soma not great on the multitasking front?
guy has 370apm as zerg ô_Ô

On October 24 2020 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
You two don't get it and are just repeating the same points without regard so I'll just leave the discussion with that you are completely delusional that you think you can judge a pro's multitasking ability by their APM.

You are confusing a measurement for the skill itself. Awareness, observing infomation, decision making, reaction time, attention that make up multitasking are largely separate from taking actions which is measured by apm. APM helps, same way that apm helps in taking actions, but it is only a measurement, and not a particularily meaningful measurement for anything in particular either.



Oh btw:

Why lie? The post that sparked this discussion.

On October 24 2020 02:02 MaGic~PhiL wrote:


2) Having high APM means it is likely you are better at multitasking than a player with low(er) apm. The bigger the apm gap the more likely it is that you are better at multitasking