EPT[ASL10] Ro24 Group E - Page 9
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:52 AttackZerg wrote: Dude is nutts, this build is horrible. ....really? Looked like it worked pretty well to me. Best should contact you for coaching so you can help him improve. | ||
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CptnNemo
3 Posts
Regardless of what build he was going, as soon as he fended off the attack, Best won. According to Bisu's commentary, he was so far ahead that he could do whatever he wanted (since the zerg had so few drones and was all-in), but he (Bisu) did admit that going a normal build probably would've been more effective. He also mentioned that had Best not made 5 photon cannons instead of three, then he would've lost. TLDR: The build is a response to 973. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
On September 13 2020 21:22 J. Corsair wrote: ....really? Looked like it worked pretty well to me. Best should contact you for coaching so you can help him improve. Don't be a dick. The build worked because someone else threw the game. 3 gate goon range is not a good build. Best is awesome. Don't be a dick. (I also added "This is why I am in B league... because clearly, I don't understand this game) | ||
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CptnNemo
3 Posts
On September 13 2020 21:47 AttackZerg wrote: Don't be a dick. The build worked because someone else threw the game. 3 gate goon range is not a good build. Best is awesome. Don't be a dick. (I also added "This is why I am in B league... because clearly, I don't understand this game) The build was specifically used to counter the hydra all-in. According to Bisu, Best knew for sure what his opponent was doing once he saw the zerg's drone count, lings, and hydras with his initial zealot poke. It held off the all-in, so yes, it was a good build for the situation. Whether it was the best build or not is another question entirely. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
On September 13 2020 21:53 CptnNemo wrote: The build was specifically used to counter the hydra all-in. Best knew for sure what his opponent was doing once he saw the zerg's drone count, lings, and hydras (according to Bisu). It held off the all-in, so yes, it was a good build for the situation. Whether it was the best build or not is another question entirely. Yes, while I was watching the game, and even after. I still did not understand Best's play. I made a live comment, I did not profess to be all knowing or correct. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
Now, this is pretty much all speculation on my part, but I think sacsri knew about this thing and decided to stay on hydra, since Best could become complacent and neglect cannons. Very interesting game strategy/mindgame-wise. Someone more up to snuff with current PvZ meta correct me if I got it totally wrong. | ||
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Miragee
8597 Posts
On September 13 2020 21:14 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't get why everyone was shitting on Best either. It's a game of imperfect information afterall. My guess is that the english cast was shitting on Best. Reading the last two pages was downright awkward. Even some random noname on ASL, nevermind Best is bound to have massively better understanding of the game than any of us random guys on TL. The opposite was the case. They were just confused but they were trying to make a positive case for Best. Tbh, please enlighten us as to what this build was trying to achieve. Imho it looked like an extremely risky response build. Risky as in you are supposed to only barely hold but if you do you can just explode right after. Of course Best's knowledge and my knowledge are not even comparable. That doesn't mean he makes a good choice every single time in a match. This match was on the edge and if Sacsri didn't mess up he could have busted Best and that's despite the fact Best knew exactly what was going on. | ||
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
On September 13 2020 21:53 CptnNemo wrote: The build was specifically used to counter the hydra all-in. According to Bisu, Best knew for sure what his opponent was doing once he saw the zerg's drone count, lings, and hydras with his initial zealot poke. It held off the all-in, so yes, it was a good build for the situation. Whether it was the best build or not is another question entirely. I'd argue you're the dick in this case, implying a build is 'horrible' while (even admittedly) not having a clue what you're talking about. I chose to highlight your intellectually lazy and inaccurate contribution to the thread. Take care, no offense meant. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
On September 14 2020 00:20 J. Corsair wrote: I'd argue you're the dick in this case, implying a build is 'horrible' while (even admittedly) not having a clue what you're talking about. I chose to highlight your intellectually lazy and inaccurate contribution to the thread. Take care, no offense meant. Yeah your just being a dick. People who have qualified for national tournaments posted the same shit I did, at the same time I did. It is a live thread, go read back for the past 18 years, I didn't do anything wrong other then being wrong. And I wasn't the only one. So enjoy your high horse. Go figure I don't see you winning any tournaments either. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 14 2020 00:06 Miragee wrote: The opposite was the case. They were just confused but they were trying to make a positive case for Best. Tbh, please enlighten us as to what this build was trying to achieve. Imho it looked like an extremely risky response build. Risky as in you are supposed to only barely hold but if you do you can just explode right after. Of course Best's knowledge and my knowledge are not even comparable. That doesn't mean he makes a good choice every single time in a match. This match was on the edge and if Sacsri didn't mess up he could have busted Best and that's despite the fact Best knew exactly what was going on. Thing is, he did not. Remember he sent a goon and then a zealot to spot ahead of the natural choke? He doesn't know if sacsri is droning behind or is committed to a big hydra push. My guess is this build is designed to provide a power spike in the former scenario by saving the forge and +1 and then having a sizable army with goon range and +1 speedlots for a push. I have no idea about the timings, this is theorizing based on a game of Best I saw some time ago. My next guess, as I said, is that sacsri knew what Best was doing and opted for a big hydra all-in. Now, he's no Zero or Soma, but I'd still assume he has a reasonable chance of figuring out if he's at a disadvantage if he stays on the 9734(ish) build (I didn't get a drone count and don't know the precise timing for the fourth hatchery) and that's why he went for a dive. Does not mean he was right, sure. But it looked scary for Best. Back to your point, the build does look risky, because it's plagued by the same weakness Protoss has had versus Zerg since forever: lack of reliable intel. You basically invite the Z to contain you at your front door and you have no corsairs. So sacsri decided to take advantage and barely failed; meanwhile, Best tried to get a read by scouting the army in front of the choke. Still, I'd say the build has merit, it's not designed to stop all-in pushes like this but rather build up to a midgame advantage. | ||
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angry_maia
327 Posts
Best's build was designed to instantly punish this. Having an army of ranged goons can tear up a sunken wall, especially if there isn't many hydras to support this. During the game, Sacsiri seemed to just mass hydras and dive on best regardless of having been scouted. And it got somewhat close to working considering what Best went for, however it wasn't enough. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
This is essentially predicted on using as few cannons as possible to hold the rush, which gives a much bigger push out right once the bust attempt is done. There is no such thing as going back and droning here because he didn't waste on 7-9 cannons to be safe: he had an army and enough to defend, so he can't be faked out. This is highly predicated on getting a good enough opening that he could actually hold with it but damn, IMO Sacsiri really had no chance even if at times it looked close (by design, like ZvT holds) | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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