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In the last game, the commentary and people in this thread is to focused on talking about what Best did you seem to forget to talk about what Sacsri did.
The way I read the game, Sacsri went for a early Hydra push, but he lost some drones to zealots and his Hydra push was scouted and Sacsri saw Best react and make cannons etc.
Best assumed that Sacsri wouldn't commit to a big Hydra all in after it had been spotted so he went for the goons to be able to break out and do damage, and made a lot of cannons to be safe.
But Sacsri went completely all in, he had no tech and no drones. Like go back and look at his lair timing, he was 100% all in on that hydra bust.
Best barely held it, but when he did, he wrecked with ease.
Best saying he was a bit lucky that he built those 2 extra cannons in the post-match interview seems to indicate that he didn't expect Sacsri to go all in after having his build spotted like that.
But, I suck at this game. Maybe I am totally wrong and my analysis is completely whack, but there is way to little regard in watching this game from Sacsris perspective.
Did he commit to the all in before or after he saw the goons? To me it seemed like he comited before, he wanted to break Best before storms was out. When he saw the goons, he just kept pushing as he knew storms would be late.
But yet, I think Best had storms out before Sacsri started his lair.
Tastosis said something about mutas sniping templars but the lair was like half way done at that time...
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Bulgaria750 Posts
Now I'm watching this again and I find curious stuff. First of all, as far as I can determine, Best started his range upgrade before seeing any hydras - around 4:25 game time you can see, just after his core finishes, his minerals and gas drop by about 150 each. He either had this build planned for the game or sniffed the 3hh out because of drone counts or speed timing or w/e(there were actually 8 drones in the natural at one point, IDK if this is important or not).
Second of all, I would not assume sacsri went for an all-in bust from the start - the 973 is quite flexible, you can bust, just snipe the forge and expand to a fourth after 6-8 or 12 hydras (Zero liked to have a full 12 before 4th, I think), macro off three bases while keeping hydra production or go for an all-in after the fourth hatch. P needs to keep tabs on Z larva to know what is going on and adjust. Best has no way of doing that - as soon as his early pressure zealots died, he's virtually blind and sacsri knows it, since he sees no corsair as late as 6:20, when he's at the P doorstep anyway. That's the reason I think he decided to go for an all-in at around this point - he still has the flexibility to kill the forge and return to droning in a regular game with that build. He identifies goons with range, so he'll be both at a disadvantage if he tries to macro behind without delaying +1 and has an opportunity to blindside P, who has no way of determining if that's really the case.
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Just something to add. Best was discussing the build in passing with Action today. Said he regretted using it when he saw all the hydras. He felt like the standard build would've been better.
TLDR: Almost every protoss/zerg player (Bisu, Zero, Action, etc.) thinks going standard would've been better. Stork just thought it was risky because it lacks the vision corsairs offer, but was ok with it as long as the zerg is going all-in.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 14 2020 22:36 CptnNemo wrote:
Just Stork just thought it was risky because it lacks the vision corsairs offer, but was ok with it as long as the zerg is going all-in.
Then I got it completely wrong indeed. I felt it would provide a good push against a more macro-based 973 variant and be somewhat shaky against an all-in.
Oh, well.
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The ambiguity in the last game is exactly what is making the game exciting for me. I never cheer for players, I always want the winner to win because a win in BW is equal to a better play in the game/series and the player on top deserves it regardless of the desires of the viewers.
Anyway - it's an amazing game, this ASL is awesome, Tastosis are on point. I am grateful I get the chance to witness this all.
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Bisutopia19240 Posts
On September 14 2020 23:53 JoinTheRain wrote:
The ambiguity in the last game is exactly what is making the game exciting for me. I never cheer for players, I always want the winner to win because a win in BW is equal to a better play in the game/series and the player on top deserves it regardless of the desires of the viewers.
Anyway - it's an amazing game, this ASL is awesome, Tastosis are on point. I am grateful I get the chance to witness this all.
Definitely agree with this ^.
The discussion points missing revolve around the tech that BeSt sacrificed. By not getting corsairs, a protoss play goes blind and cannot scout. BeSt lost 3 zealots trying to do hail mary runbys around the hydra clump in the middle. Each runby confirmed larger amounts of hydras so at least BeSt could feel a little better. But 3 hatch fake is a signature move by by.hero. He is a player that will put enough hydras outside your door to scare you and then macro heavily behind it. Other zergs more recently do a similar tactic, but instead switch heavily into mutas. Muta tech is hard to defend with dragoons, but not impossible. If BeSt used his stargate and corsair tech resources to tech templars he would not have had enough DTs or Storms to defend against the hydra all in or the muta switch.
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Let me see if I understand. I am not claiming the following is true, rather, I am asking for correction if it's wrong.
Best's build is designed to counter the play pattern of
3HH -> don't all-in but do snipe forge -> macro,
by saving the forge with range goons and then punishing the macro with +1 range goons, +1 speed zealots, and templar.
But instead Sacsri went
3HH -> hydra all-in
Best thought to himself, "By Aiur, that's a lot of hydras. I regret my decision and should have played standard."
But then Best won anyway because (a) he's very skilled, (b) he got some early drone kills with zealots, and (c) the goon build isn't *that* bad against the committed hydra all-in.
... Yes/no?
Edit: And I keep hearing about two extra cannons or something. So perhaps I should also add in the fact that, although Best occasionally sacrificed a unit to hydras in an effort to scout, he was rewarded with the knowledge that he needed *more* cannons than would have been required if Sacsri had been building drones.
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Austria4114 Posts
Dragoons are worse than canons against a hydra all-in, because the cost-to-DPS doesn't work out in their favor - even when considering 1) added mobility (moving back damaged dragoons) and 2) taking up less space than canons. So Stork's statement wouldn't make sense, since if protoss somehow knew that zerg is going all-in he should add canons instead of dragoons. The odds of winning after stopping the all-in should be about the same (although dragoons cost gas, so that could actually be worse for protoss even after stopping the all-in).
With all that being said, I don't think Best made a strategic mistake. At that level of play, even the better player needs to take some chances. I believe the fact that Best is capable of pulling this move creates a different meta where he can create doubt in the zerg player's mind. After a failed or faked rush, zerg would always have to ask himself: is Best accelerating his dragoon production and thus able to push out faster? Or is he going the standard route? This element of doubt is a key factor in winning more games and matches. As Sun Tzu teaches: all war is about deception.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 15 2020 06:39 Djabanete wrote:
Let me see if I understand. I am not claiming the following is true, rather, I am asking for correction if it's wrong.
Best's build is designed to counter the play pattern of
3HH -> don't all-in but do snipe forge -> macro,
by saving the forge with range goons and then punishing the macro with +1 range goons, +1 speed zealots, and templar.
But instead Sacsri went
3HH -> hydra all-in
Best thought to himself, "By Aiur, that's a lot of hydras. I regret my decision and should have played standard."
But then Best won anyway because (a) he's very skilled, (b) he got some early drone kills with zealots, and (c) the goon build isn't *that* bad against the committed hydra all-in.
... Yes/no?
Edit: And I keep hearing about two extra cannons or something. So perhaps I should also add in the fact that, although Best occasionally sacrificed a unit to hydras in an effort to scout, he was rewarded with the knowledge that he needed *more* cannons than would have been required if Sacsri had been building drones.
That was my impression, but apparently not exactly.
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EPT
