EPT
[ASL10] Ro24 Group E
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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Xiberia
Sweden634 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4197 Posts
hope this will be a good one | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Yeah, gonna just say Best to advance. No idea how to predict the others. | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On September 13 2020 16:47 AttackZerg wrote: Hard group to predict, BeSt is the only former finalist. Yeah, gonna just say Best to advance. No idea how to predict the others. Wut? Shuttle won asl 1. Barring online tournaments, Best has been absent from Ro 4 for almost five years. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK5eBtuoj_HkdXKHNmBLAXg @blind-rawr could you also fix the Bets for today? E and F are missing. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On September 13 2020 16:59 whaski wrote: Wut? Shuttle won asl 1. Barring online tournaments, Best has been absent from Ro 4 for almost five years. I missed ASL 1 and 2. Thanks for the info. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
Please Best do your macro thing and qualify ! Maybe Shuttle will be second, I dont know... Also , no LB on this one  | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
On September 13 2020 18:28 Alejandrisha wrote: are we doing this? are we staying awake? i hope i don't pass out because the second the cast starts my ears gonn be like ^^ WE ARE IN THIS !!!! LET'S DO IT Alejandrisha !!!!! | ||
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BulgarianToss
Bulgaria485 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 18:31 prosatan wrote: WE ARE IN THIS !!!! LET'S DO IT Alejandrisha !!!!! LETS GO!!!! LETS GO !!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
GET UP GET UP THIS IS OUT OF CONTROOOOOOOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LETS GOOOOOOOO | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 18:49 prosatan wrote: HA ! Nice CS video rts and fps were staunch competitors for my love in the early 2000's xD AND THE MUSIC!!! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:02 prosatan wrote: Next group is tuesday.... might as well just keep watching cs videos  | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:03 Alejandrisha wrote: might as well just keep watching cs videos  | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
started watching the eol video at the beginning of the interview, ngl | ||
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Jubinell
333 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:17 Jubinell wrote: Hi guys sorry to bother. Which group is Flash in? Flash is already qualified, since he took third place in ASL9 | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
Maybe he will go bio! | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:20 Alejandrisha wrote: we made it!  | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:21 prosatan wrote: Barracks is known for his ability to fast make marines from 5+ barracks Maybe he will go bio! staaahhhhp | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
cheers my dood! | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:27 AttackZerg wrote: This map seems really hard for both T and P. Seems like it will be very hard to hold 4th and 5th bases. Is this an arbiter map P players? definitely an arbiter map. no room or time for carriers here | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:28 Alejandrisha wrote: definitely an arbiter map. no room or time for carriers here Thanks. Barracks doesn't seem to want to find out =) | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:29 AttackZerg wrote: Thanks. Barracks doesn't seem to want to find out =) he also has a scout | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
Scout is stil useless | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
edit: he's trying , but he has like... 8 tanks??? edit2: that was dumb lul | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:36 prosatan wrote: Barracks had this... he played poorly that push idk why he moved out with 130 supply. wtf told him that was a good idea.. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:38 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Scout finds undefended mining base. Still can't kill anything. lol yeah. he saw a turret and peaced out. prob could have sat by the mins but not even worth | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
Agree with the comment "good plan, terrible execution" | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:45 BLinD-RawR wrote: how could you not have time then our whole night is 5 bo1's O_O | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:42 Alejandrisha wrote: still better than english twitch ads tellin us to drink beer and play video games xD As opposed to what? | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:48 Miragee wrote: Caught the rest of the first match and Barracks really messed up his pre-Carrier push.... As opposed to what? crappy mobile games i guess | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:48 Alejandrisha wrote: how could you not have time then our whole night is 5 bo1's O_O you'd be surprised how much people don't like watching boring bw matches compared to good/bad bw matches. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:50 BLinD-RawR wrote: you'd be surprised how much people don't like watching boring bw matches compared to good/bad bw matches. this is odd to me. i devour every asl game like it was the last bit of the sweetest of nectars | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4197 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
I'm sure there are quite a few people who prefer a good beer over a crappy mobile scam. On September 13 2020 19:50 BLinD-RawR wrote: you'd be surprised how much people don't like watching boring bw matches compared to good/bad bw matches. Imagine having the audacity to have something better to do than watching a subpar BW match... | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:53 Miragee wrote: I'm sure there are quite a few people who prefer a good beer over a crappy mobile scam. Imagine having the audacity to have something better to do than watching a subpar BW match... I'll watch subpar BW live, but a vod? not a fucking chance, its why I don't do recaps. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
A milion ovies sniped and constant zealot pressure ! | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
A PvP coming up , as expected ! | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Didn't he hit 90% right before the season of the six dragons? | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On September 13 2020 19:56 BLinD-RawR wrote: I'll watch subpar BW live, but a vod? not a fucking chance, its why I don't do recaps. Yes, same. Live is different because you can't know beforehand whether a match will be good or not. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
edit: intro only. this song sucks | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:01 AttackZerg wrote: Anyone remember what Best's PvP winrate was during his BestvP era? Didn't he hit 90% right before the season of the six dragons? YES! I remember ! He was amazing at PvP! Also , a very strong PvP player was Horang2 | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:01 Alejandrisha wrote: ok i actually voted 'if you have time' this time xD I mean these polls were never meant for the people who watch it live anyway. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:03 BLinD-RawR wrote: I mean these polls were never meant for the people who watch it live anyway. startin to feel ya | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:01 Alejandrisha wrote: this song tho edit: intro only. this song sucks This song is a remake of the smash viral hit "Friday". | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:01 AttackZerg wrote: Anyone remember what Best's PvP winrate was during his BestvP era? Didn't he hit 90% right before the season of the six dragons? "His winning rate in 2008 was 70%, with a stunning 76.67% against Protoss." (Source: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Six_Dragons#Best) Maybe he did in a shorter time frame before that season? On September 13 2020 20:01 Alejandrisha wrote: ok i actually voted 'if you have time' this time xD lol^^ | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:04 AttackZerg wrote: This song is a remake of the smash viral hit "Friday". Q_O | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:04 AttackZerg wrote: This song is a remake of the smash viral hit "Friday". The Best Starcraft song for me was this: | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:05 prosatan wrote: The Best Starcraft song for me was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEYTX2EmA5Q as we often say.. but why.. when my drummer is hitting a 2/4 this is the moment i reconsider the direction the band is going | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:05 Miragee wrote: "His winning rate in 2008 was 70%, with a stunning 76.67% against Protoss." (Source: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Six_Dragons#Best) Maybe he did in a shorter time frame before that season? lol^^ Thanks for narrowing in down. I think I remember the graphic for proleague maybe 2 seasons before he faced July. Also 76% in a mirror. Just wow. He only played dope Ps back then too. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:10 prosatan wrote: I don't really get this opening from Shuttle.... a bit late core and 2 zealots... this is like a 1800 ladder build xD | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
I root for Shuttle in this game, because Best can win against Sascri and Barracks with ease | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
WP Tasteless | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4197 Posts
very glad to see Shuttle getting out ggs | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:14 sneakyfox wrote: "The other side of the scumbag coin" WP Tasteless there's a reason he gets paid the big bucks xD | ||
GTR
51459 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:24 GTR wrote: how the hell does siri get the arena bowl from "When is the ASL on"? relevance and background noise | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:32 prosatan wrote: Guardians incoming ? i wish edit: omg u sumbeeatch | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
But why? | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:33 prosatan wrote: THAT HOLD !!!! literally on a needle's point. lurker eggs placed so well. never even thought that could be a mechanic lol | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
i don't.. i don't know | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:37 prosatan wrote: gg..... my feelings exactly -.- | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
GOGO Best! | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:38 NoS-Craig wrote: A lot of small mistakes there by Barracks. Now we get to see Best smack Sacsri again. Unless Sacsri can pull something special. just goes to show you how hard this game is.. so many players chasing 1 purse and we still have weird games with strange decisions. hey, it keeps it fresh | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
I don't understand anyone without a Sci vessel against 2 hat muta build, the first sci vessel usually makes me feel insta impotent. I am suck thou. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:45 AttackZerg wrote: I veto this map ZvP, lategame speed shuttles ruined my life. i'd understand that. huge map and no dead air | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:43 Alejandrisha wrote: besides g1 these games have been very underwhelming +1 | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Dude had such a high peak. He used to dominate with 5 gate speedzlot/sair - > storm drops double expo to 4 base. Just brutal on colleseum and such. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:50 AttackZerg wrote: I miss when Best was soo good at macro, I worried when he was paired with Jaedong .. for Jaedong. Dude had such a high peak. He used to dominate with 5 gate speedzlot/sair - > storm drops double expo to 4 base. Just brutal on colleseum and such. no hero for protoss | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:52 AttackZerg wrote: Dude is nutts, this build is horrible. lol yeah, it's like an all-in build without going all-in. | ||
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Sadist
United States7237 Posts
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:55 Sadist wrote: This game is awful. I do not understand bests build at all. im scratching my head as well.. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:55 Sadist wrote: This game is awful. I do not understand bests build at all. Dude! You used to wreck me! | ||
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:55 asel wrote: Cast is fun. Tasteless has no clue what's happening but sounds like he invented the build. Artosis is all Like "ehm.. ok". So true. I feel like those two actually have no clue what is going on but it's entertaining. | ||
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8057 Posts
GG !!!! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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Sorusaba
276 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:59 Miragee wrote: That last match was a perfect summary of today's matches. agreed dood.. wtf was that | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
On September 13 2020 20:52 AttackZerg wrote: Dude is nutts, this build is horrible. ....really? Looked like it worked pretty well to me. Best should contact you for coaching so you can help him improve. | ||
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CptnNemo
3 Posts
Regardless of what build he was going, as soon as he fended off the attack, Best won. According to Bisu's commentary, he was so far ahead that he could do whatever he wanted (since the zerg had so few drones and was all-in), but he (Bisu) did admit that going a normal build probably would've been more effective. He also mentioned that had Best not made 5 photon cannons instead of three, then he would've lost. TLDR: The build is a response to 973. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On September 13 2020 21:22 J. Corsair wrote: ....really? Looked like it worked pretty well to me. Best should contact you for coaching so you can help him improve. Don't be a dick. The build worked because someone else threw the game. 3 gate goon range is not a good build. Best is awesome. Don't be a dick. (I also added "This is why I am in B league... because clearly, I don't understand this game) | ||
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CptnNemo
3 Posts
On September 13 2020 21:47 AttackZerg wrote: Don't be a dick. The build worked because someone else threw the game. 3 gate goon range is not a good build. Best is awesome. Don't be a dick. (I also added "This is why I am in B league... because clearly, I don't understand this game) The build was specifically used to counter the hydra all-in. According to Bisu, Best knew for sure what his opponent was doing once he saw the zerg's drone count, lings, and hydras with his initial zealot poke. It held off the all-in, so yes, it was a good build for the situation. Whether it was the best build or not is another question entirely. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On September 13 2020 21:53 CptnNemo wrote: The build was specifically used to counter the hydra all-in. Best knew for sure what his opponent was doing once he saw the zerg's drone count, lings, and hydras (according to Bisu). It held off the all-in, so yes, it was a good build for the situation. Whether it was the best build or not is another question entirely. Yes, while I was watching the game, and even after. I still did not understand Best's play. I made a live comment, I did not profess to be all knowing or correct. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
Now, this is pretty much all speculation on my part, but I think sacsri knew about this thing and decided to stay on hydra, since Best could become complacent and neglect cannons. Very interesting game strategy/mindgame-wise. Someone more up to snuff with current PvZ meta correct me if I got it totally wrong. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On September 13 2020 21:14 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't get why everyone was shitting on Best either. It's a game of imperfect information afterall. My guess is that the english cast was shitting on Best. Reading the last two pages was downright awkward. Even some random noname on ASL, nevermind Best is bound to have massively better understanding of the game than any of us random guys on TL. The opposite was the case. They were just confused but they were trying to make a positive case for Best. Tbh, please enlighten us as to what this build was trying to achieve. Imho it looked like an extremely risky response build. Risky as in you are supposed to only barely hold but if you do you can just explode right after. Of course Best's knowledge and my knowledge are not even comparable. That doesn't mean he makes a good choice every single time in a match. This match was on the edge and if Sacsri didn't mess up he could have busted Best and that's despite the fact Best knew exactly what was going on. | ||
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
On September 13 2020 21:53 CptnNemo wrote: The build was specifically used to counter the hydra all-in. According to Bisu, Best knew for sure what his opponent was doing once he saw the zerg's drone count, lings, and hydras with his initial zealot poke. It held off the all-in, so yes, it was a good build for the situation. Whether it was the best build or not is another question entirely. I'd argue you're the dick in this case, implying a build is 'horrible' while (even admittedly) not having a clue what you're talking about. I chose to highlight your intellectually lazy and inaccurate contribution to the thread. Take care, no offense meant. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On September 14 2020 00:20 J. Corsair wrote: I'd argue you're the dick in this case, implying a build is 'horrible' while (even admittedly) not having a clue what you're talking about. I chose to highlight your intellectually lazy and inaccurate contribution to the thread. Take care, no offense meant. Yeah your just being a dick. People who have qualified for national tournaments posted the same shit I did, at the same time I did. It is a live thread, go read back for the past 18 years, I didn't do anything wrong other then being wrong. And I wasn't the only one. So enjoy your high horse. Go figure I don't see you winning any tournaments either. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 14 2020 00:06 Miragee wrote: The opposite was the case. They were just confused but they were trying to make a positive case for Best. Tbh, please enlighten us as to what this build was trying to achieve. Imho it looked like an extremely risky response build. Risky as in you are supposed to only barely hold but if you do you can just explode right after. Of course Best's knowledge and my knowledge are not even comparable. That doesn't mean he makes a good choice every single time in a match. This match was on the edge and if Sacsri didn't mess up he could have busted Best and that's despite the fact Best knew exactly what was going on. Thing is, he did not. Remember he sent a goon and then a zealot to spot ahead of the natural choke? He doesn't know if sacsri is droning behind or is committed to a big hydra push. My guess is this build is designed to provide a power spike in the former scenario by saving the forge and +1 and then having a sizable army with goon range and +1 speedlots for a push. I have no idea about the timings, this is theorizing based on a game of Best I saw some time ago. My next guess, as I said, is that sacsri knew what Best was doing and opted for a big hydra all-in. Now, he's no Zero or Soma, but I'd still assume he has a reasonable chance of figuring out if he's at a disadvantage if he stays on the 9734(ish) build (I didn't get a drone count and don't know the precise timing for the fourth hatchery) and that's why he went for a dive. Does not mean he was right, sure. But it looked scary for Best. Back to your point, the build does look risky, because it's plagued by the same weakness Protoss has had versus Zerg since forever: lack of reliable intel. You basically invite the Z to contain you at your front door and you have no corsairs. So sacsri decided to take advantage and barely failed; meanwhile, Best tried to get a read by scouting the army in front of the choke. Still, I'd say the build has merit, it's not designed to stop all-in pushes like this but rather build up to a midgame advantage. | ||
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angry_maia
314 Posts
Best's build was designed to instantly punish this. Having an army of ranged goons can tear up a sunken wall, especially if there isn't many hydras to support this. During the game, Sacsiri seemed to just mass hydras and dive on best regardless of having been scouted. And it got somewhat close to working considering what Best went for, however it wasn't enough. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
This is essentially predicted on using as few cannons as possible to hold the rush, which gives a much bigger push out right once the bust attempt is done. There is no such thing as going back and droning here because he didn't waste on 7-9 cannons to be safe: he had an army and enough to defend, so he can't be faked out. This is highly predicated on getting a good enough opening that he could actually hold with it but damn, IMO Sacsiri really had no chance even if at times it looked close (by design, like ZvT holds) | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
The way I read the game, Sacsri went for a early Hydra push, but he lost some drones to zealots and his Hydra push was scouted and Sacsri saw Best react and make cannons etc. Best assumed that Sacsri wouldn't commit to a big Hydra all in after it had been spotted so he went for the goons to be able to break out and do damage, and made a lot of cannons to be safe. But Sacsri went completely all in, he had no tech and no drones. Like go back and look at his lair timing, he was 100% all in on that hydra bust. Best barely held it, but when he did, he wrecked with ease. Best saying he was a bit lucky that he built those 2 extra cannons in the post-match interview seems to indicate that he didn't expect Sacsri to go all in after having his build spotted like that. But, I suck at this game. Maybe I am totally wrong and my analysis is completely whack, but there is way to little regard in watching this game from Sacsris perspective. Did he commit to the all in before or after he saw the goons? To me it seemed like he comited before, he wanted to break Best before storms was out. When he saw the goons, he just kept pushing as he knew storms would be late. But yet, I think Best had storms out before Sacsri started his lair. Tastosis said something about mutas sniping templars but the lair was like half way done at that time... | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
Second of all, I would not assume sacsri went for an all-in bust from the start - the 973 is quite flexible, you can bust, just snipe the forge and expand to a fourth after 6-8 or 12 hydras (Zero liked to have a full 12 before 4th, I think), macro off three bases while keeping hydra production or go for an all-in after the fourth hatch. P needs to keep tabs on Z larva to know what is going on and adjust. Best has no way of doing that - as soon as his early pressure zealots died, he's virtually blind and sacsri knows it, since he sees no corsair as late as 6:20, when he's at the P doorstep anyway. That's the reason I think he decided to go for an all-in at around this point - he still has the flexibility to kill the forge and return to droning in a regular game with that build. He identifies goons with range, so he'll be both at a disadvantage if he tries to macro behind without delaying +1 and has an opportunity to blindside P, who has no way of determining if that's really the case. | ||
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CptnNemo
3 Posts
TLDR: Almost every protoss/zerg player (Bisu, Zero, Action, etc.) thinks going standard would've been better. Stork just thought it was risky because it lacks the vision corsairs offer, but was ok with it as long as the zerg is going all-in. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 14 2020 22:36 CptnNemo wrote: Just Stork just thought it was risky because it lacks the vision corsairs offer, but was ok with it as long as the zerg is going all-in. Then I got it completely wrong indeed. I felt it would provide a good push against a more macro-based 973 variant and be somewhat shaky against an all-in. Oh, well. | ||
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
Anyway - it's an amazing game, this ASL is awesome, Tastosis are on point. I am grateful I get the chance to witness this all. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19240 Posts
On September 14 2020 23:53 JoinTheRain wrote: The ambiguity in the last game is exactly what is making the game exciting for me. I never cheer for players, I always want the winner to win because a win in BW is equal to a better play in the game/series and the player on top deserves it regardless of the desires of the viewers. Anyway - it's an amazing game, this ASL is awesome, Tastosis are on point. I am grateful I get the chance to witness this all. Definitely agree with this ^. The discussion points missing revolve around the tech that BeSt sacrificed. By not getting corsairs, a protoss play goes blind and cannot scout. BeSt lost 3 zealots trying to do hail mary runbys around the hydra clump in the middle. Each runby confirmed larger amounts of hydras so at least BeSt could feel a little better. But 3 hatch fake is a signature move by by.hero. He is a player that will put enough hydras outside your door to scare you and then macro heavily behind it. Other zergs more recently do a similar tactic, but instead switch heavily into mutas. Muta tech is hard to defend with dragoons, but not impossible. If BeSt used his stargate and corsair tech resources to tech templars he would not have had enough DTs or Storms to defend against the hydra all in or the muta switch. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Best's build is designed to counter the play pattern of 3HH -> don't all-in but do snipe forge -> macro, by saving the forge with range goons and then punishing the macro with +1 range goons, +1 speed zealots, and templar. But instead Sacsri went 3HH -> hydra all-in Best thought to himself, "By Aiur, that's a lot of hydras. I regret my decision and should have played standard." But then Best won anyway because (a) he's very skilled, (b) he got some early drone kills with zealots, and (c) the goon build isn't *that* bad against the committed hydra all-in. ... Yes/no? Edit: And I keep hearing about two extra cannons or something. So perhaps I should also add in the fact that, although Best occasionally sacrificed a unit to hydras in an effort to scout, he was rewarded with the knowledge that he needed *more* cannons than would have been required if Sacsri had been building drones. | ||
Magic Powers
Austria4114 Posts
With all that being said, I don't think Best made a strategic mistake. At that level of play, even the better player needs to take some chances. I believe the fact that Best is capable of pulling this move creates a different meta where he can create doubt in the zerg player's mind. After a failed or faked rush, zerg would always have to ask himself: is Best accelerating his dragoon production and thus able to push out faster? Or is he going the standard route? This element of doubt is a key factor in winning more games and matches. As Sun Tzu teaches: all war is about deception. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 15 2020 06:39 Djabanete wrote: Let me see if I understand. I am not claiming the following is true, rather, I am asking for correction if it's wrong. Best's build is designed to counter the play pattern of 3HH -> don't all-in but do snipe forge -> macro, by saving the forge with range goons and then punishing the macro with +1 range goons, +1 speed zealots, and templar. But instead Sacsri went 3HH -> hydra all-in Best thought to himself, "By Aiur, that's a lot of hydras. I regret my decision and should have played standard." But then Best won anyway because (a) he's very skilled, (b) he got some early drone kills with zealots, and (c) the goon build isn't *that* bad against the committed hydra all-in. ... Yes/no? Edit: And I keep hearing about two extra cannons or something. So perhaps I should also add in the fact that, although Best occasionally sacrificed a unit to hydras in an effort to scout, he was rewarded with the knowledge that he needed *more* cannons than would have been required if Sacsri had been building drones. That was my impression, but apparently not exactly. | ||
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