EPT
[ASL9] Ro8 Day 1
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
| ||
|
TornadoSteve
936 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia12843 Posts
I hope Action uses some funky builds. If he plays standard might as well not turn up. | ||
|
Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
 | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
| ||
|
Marine50
Australia1764 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On March 29 2020 15:59 thedeadhaji wrote: how does map selection work? Both players have 1 ban each, the rest are dropped into the pool randomly. If you go to the bracket in the results spoiler you can see the maps are already selected, click on the "i" icon on the flash vs action bracket. | ||
|
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On March 29 2020 16:04 BLinD-RawR wrote: Both players have 1 ban each, the rest are dropped into the pool randomly. If you go to the bracket in the results spoiler you can see the maps are already selected, click on the "i" icon on the flash vs action bracket. Thanks! Hope Action gets some good spawn locations in the first 2 matches. | ||
|
Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
But on the other hand, I would also really like to see the semifinal Flash vs Larva. Well, the cherry on the cake would be the Flash final against Stork or Bisu. It will be so good, and i think Stork have more chances than Bisu in finals vs Flash. Good luck to all. Action i`m waiting you show us some cheeeesseee  ) Whithout cheese knock out Flash very hardefulp.s. sorry for my bad english in some places | ||
|
whaski
Finland576 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
outscar
2832 Posts
| ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On March 24 2020 22:00 mishimaBeef wrote: pretty good show today, and after the last match we get to see someone else get eliminated | ||
|
Puosu
6984 Posts
On March 29 2020 16:35 Sonic_md wrote: Action i`m waiting you show us some cheeeesseee ) Whithout cheese knock out Flash very hardefulyes, Action's gotta show his dirtiest tricks  | ||
|
Wonk
546 Posts
| ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
| ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
flash recently 4-0ed the grand finals of KCM race war so... this guy aint gonna drop a map lol | ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
On March 29 2020 18:52 Akio wrote: I'm just hoping Action can take a game Me too! 3-1 would be a perfect score | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
atrox_
United Kingdom1708 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4144 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:14 nojok wrote: Glad to see inner coven banned, it quickly grew old, lame map. nah, disagree. Still some pretty interesting games on it. Some fresh strats and high iq manouvers possible. Much better than Sparkle imo | ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4144 Posts
my prediction Hope this is not going to be another roflstomp.. | ||
|
GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
Disappointing. | ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:17 nojok wrote: Are they seriously trying to pretend we currently are in the highest skilled era ever? Disappointing. Agree! Zero said he and the rest of the players were better during the Kespa era. Training was insane compare to today | ||
|
GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:17 nojok wrote: Are they seriously trying to pretend we currently are in the highest skilled era ever? Disappointing. they've been taking every opportunity recently to say that fans know nothing about the game, and that they are so much smarter...which coming from tasteless is pretty damn rich. And this has been in SC2 and BW | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:20 konadora wrote: i never watch the english cast but it seems like its a dumpster fire from the comments here lol damn tastosis gatekeeping again | ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:17 nojok wrote: Are they seriously trying to pretend we currently are in the highest skilled era ever? Disappointing. They even flamed us! We are famous now. Freaking TL elitists who have no idea how the game works. :D I all honesty though, I think it's a missunderstanding. Knowledge obviously has moved forward a lot and Artosis made the point that, if you import the knowledge of today to the 2009 and onwards Kespa era, it would be even better. And that's a fair point imho. When I, and I assume a lot of other people here, are talking about level of play they think of mechanics and those were obviously better back then. | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
are you guys saying flash is wrong? | ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:26 mishimaBeef wrote: they claim flash said he's the best he's ever been are you guys saying flash is wrong? Probably because he has an insane winrate against jaedong nowadays. | ||
|
sparklyresidue
United States5522 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:26 mishimaBeef wrote: they claim flash said he's the best he's ever been are you guys saying flash is wrong? journo here with the reeeeal questions | ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:26 mishimaBeef wrote: they claim flash said he's the best he's ever been are you guys saying flash is wrong? But I believe what Flash said wasn't just simply "This era is higher skilled than the Kespa era" I think a lot of the guys now talk about how the strategical understanding has increased but the mechanics have deteriorated because not as much pure practice etc. | ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:29 Akio wrote: But I believe what Flash said wasn't just simply "This era is higher skilled than the Kespa era" I think a lot of the guys now talk about how the strategical understanding has increased but the mechanics have deteriorated because not as much pure practice etc. Being able to think about strategies while being heavily pressured by mechanical requirements is a skill in itself. They could play even slower and become more strategical. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
| ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:31 nojok wrote: Being able to think about strategies while being heavily pressured by mechanical requirements is a skill in itself. They could play even slower and become more strategical. Yep exactly | ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:32 EsportsJohn wrote: Action is already dead. He built all those lings, and Flash defended with 2 marines NotLikeThis. I take it back, I did not expect mass mutas to take such a good straightforward fight against goliaths/marines. His drone count is still hella low though. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
| ||
|
whylessness
United States376 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
 | ||
|
ShloobeR
Korea (South)3804 Posts
like that one straggling marine who glitched because of pathfinding and juuuust saw those 5 lurkers go up on his cliff | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
whaski
Finland576 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:40 whaski wrote: Lol god is dead Not yet. Flash has come back from worse. | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
on the back of a few bases he literally has 1 running base now vs action's 4 | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
BUT HE GOT THE 4TH GAS BASE | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
floating CC to 3rd | ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:43 konadora wrote: on the back of a few bases he literally has 1 running base now vs action's 4 I know it's unlikely. But only because I don't see him taking a 3rd... Ok I eat my words, terran can float buildings. | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
focus fire on the CC, almost got it | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
sending his army to flash's main and flash literally has no units defending GGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!! | ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
But weired BO from Flash ! Haven't seen him do this Goliaths into marines and medics | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
| ||
|
Motivate
2860 Posts
although that was a rubbish build by flash | ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
Action 1-0 ! | ||
|
atrox_
United Kingdom1708 Posts
| ||
|
weiliem
2056 Posts
| ||
|
bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/AL15nO5.png) | ||
|
Wonk
546 Posts
Flash should have just stuck with the gol build | ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
Still a bit frustrating to not see the game move past the 80/90 supplies, I wanted to see bigger scale engagements. | ||
|
Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
| ||
|
Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
| ||
|
ShloobeR
Korea (South)3804 Posts
very cool games, AngryFlash will be activated now | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
it's a very timing attack based build but the mass lings threw flash's timing off, and the second time he was supposed to go for a push, the +1 armor mutalisks forced flash into his base. action played well and also won with build order | ||
GTR
51374 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:47 Motivate wrote: beautiful play by action :') although that was a rubbish build by flash he was pretty much dead once action was able to take out his mnm and lings started to come into the base, but only flash would have been able to hold out for 20+ minutes in that situation. | ||
|
jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
| ||
|
Cush
United States646 Posts
| ||
|
ERSJ
Sweden57 Posts
| ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
Whoa. Scourge on CC was such a fun idea from Tasteless. Horizon got to show itself some there, alright. Flash bring it back! | ||
|
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
| ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia12843 Posts
| ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
I guess it was his lucky day 3-1 Flash incoming | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:49 TaardadAiel wrote: Losing that vult did so much work... that was really uncharacteristic of flash, even if the speed upgrade on the lings did take him by surprise | ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:48 GTR wrote: he was pretty much dead once action was able to take out his mnm and lings started to come into the base, but only flash would have been able to hold out for 20+ minutes in that situation. Yeah, Flash grinded so hard, trading favorably in so many small skirmishes, I actually thought he might comeback at some point. The vessel genocide in front of action's natural eventually sealed the game in an unFlash way, probably was focused on action's 4th when the scourges came in. | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
Highgamer
1383 Posts
LMAO | ||
|
whaski
Finland576 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:49 RowdierBob wrote: Not sure about that build from Flash. Being the better player it makes sense he should play more standard. Action’s response was spot on though. Sloppiness defending the initial mutas cost flash. Maybe he tried to go just regular 2 fact goliaths, but fast 3 from Action with +1 mutas just caused timings being too late | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16053 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:55 Vindicare605 wrote: It's bugging me how close that song sounds to another song I know. it sounds like a lot of other power ballad songs, hell even past ASL music. | ||
|
whaski
Finland576 Posts
| ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
 | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:55 Vindicare605 wrote: It's bugging me how close that song sounds to another song I know. maybe this song? it was used in old MSL i think? | ||
|
Motivate
2860 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
| ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
| ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
| ||
|
Motivate
2860 Posts
anyone remember seeing clam play this in like 2/3 of his zvts? | ||
|
Wonk
546 Posts
| ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:05 Miragee wrote: Has a 2 hatch lurker ever worked against Flash? : / 2 hatch muta, yes, but 2 hatch lurker? Gotta try something, before Effort owned Flash with burrow I'm sure they said the same about burrow. | ||
|
TornadoSteve
936 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:06 Motivate wrote: man 2 hatch lurker is a great build. maybe not against flash but i certainly used to regularly use it to avoid playing zvt anyone remember seeing clam play this in like 2/3 of his zvts? I remember Kwanro losing with this every second game. | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:03 Motivate wrote: dunno how i feel about the lurker run by there... i guess either way action was behind after the failed attack I think other terrans might have felt a need to turn back to defend in which case those 7 lurkers would have been great. The problem vs. Flash is he is so decisive when moving to the front line that if there isn't a front line for zerg he pushes right through. Morphing every one of his hydras at once felt like a catch-up dice roll by Action to slow the terran pushout after the first contain was removed. | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:08 Miragee wrote: I remember Kwanro losing with this every second game. I mean unless he was on a kwanroll steak the dude was losing very game no matter what the strategy was, so that doesn't rly account for too much. | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:09 Snorkels wrote: I think other terrans might have felt a need to turn back to defend in which case those 7 lurkers would have been great. The problem vs. Flash is he is so decisive when moving to the front line that if there isn't a front line for zerg he pushes right through. Morphing every one of his hydras at once felt like a catch-up dice roll by Action to slow the terran pushout after the first contain was removed. No way, no terran would turn back there, at worst it's a base trade scenario and terran would win that too. It was just a failed all in from Action, mostly because he lost his first lurkers there. As Artosis was saying, yea, problem for terran if they go +1 first. It should be I guess, but he owned those first lurkers with virtually 0 losses. That was it. | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:09 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I wish I knew what the voiceovers for the carbot animations are saying. talking about the biological aspect of the Queen and its role in the Zerg swarm, etc etc. think Sir David Attenborough narrating a wild animal | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16053 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:03 konadora wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LERjAuczSms maybe this song? it was used in old MSL i think? That's not what I had in mind. I wasn't gonna link it in the LR thread. What I thought of was Push it to the Limit by Paul Engemann off the Scarface soundtrack. The riff sounds almost identical until the last bit of it. | ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:11 Kaolla wrote: No way, no terran would turn back there, at worst it's a base trade scenario and terran would win that too. It was just a failed all in from Action, mostly because he lost his first lurkers there. As Artosis was saying, yea, problem for terran if they go +1 first. It should be I guess, but he owned those first lurkers with virtually 0 losses. That was it. You right On March 29 2020 20:11 konadora wrote: talking about the biological aspect of the Queen and its role in the Zerg swarm, etc etc. think Sir David Attenborough narrating a wild animal Awesome! | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16053 Posts
| ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:09 Snorkels wrote: I think other terrans might have felt a need to turn back to defend in which case those 7 lurkers would have been great. The problem vs. Flash is he is so decisive when moving to the front line that if there isn't a front line for zerg he pushes right through. Morphing every one of his hydras at once felt like a catch-up dice roll by Action to slow the terran pushout after the first contain was removed. Anyways, about the lurkers runby, Action didn't have a choice since the lurkers were morphing outside on the map. I suppose they could had gone back to the nat, but Flash consistently demonstrates being able to fight lurkers out in the open. | ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
| ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Ahahaha, is that just 1 lurker defending the third, scaring Flash's army away? Probably no scan ready? //and the first vessel goes down, double dropship as well in a matter of seconds | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
| ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
| ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21434 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
action is ahead in everything - supply, upgrade, base | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
| ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
holy god damn shit Action! | ||
|
goody153
44033 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
action made use of game 2 to mindfuck flash, thinking he's going all-in again and forcing flash to play extra safe mafia zerg!! | ||
|
Cush
United States646 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
| ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
Oh boy. WP Action | ||
|
goody153
44033 Posts
| ||
|
Wonk
546 Posts
| ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:28 goody153 wrote: How did game 3 end up at this point with Action having a massive lead against flash lategame ? Losing the first vessel instantly. Flash went double dropship after that and lost them as well without doing any damage. That was a game breaker. | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21434 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:28 goody153 wrote: He went for dropships after his first vessel and then he lost his only vessel and the drop didn't do enough.How did game 3 end up at this point with Action having a massive lead against flash lategame ? | ||
|
Uldridge
Belgium4646 Posts
| ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
| ||
|
BlackJack
United States10259 Posts
| ||
|
jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
| ||
|
whaski
Finland576 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:30 whaski wrote: Take that Flash! Wrist/shoulderproblems? He seems to be sloppy with unitcontrol doubt it. | ||
|
weiliem
2056 Posts
| ||
|
Wonk
546 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:29 konadora wrote: if flash is eliminated here by action playing this well, i wont even be mad because this is some crazy good stuff by action super crazy good stuff from action yeah. | ||
|
Highgamer
1383 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:28 goody153 wrote: How did game 3 end up at this point with Action having a massive lead against flash lategame ? Flash is not his usual self imo. On good/normal days he finds the 3rd much earlier, he doesn't miss so many irradiates, he attacks on multiple fronts (sends another dropship to the third). He must have a bad day or didn't prepare for such an event as diligently as usual. Action plays fine, but it's mostly Flash playing sloppy today. | ||
|
Lambertus
South Africa965 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:32 Highgamer wrote: Flash is not his usual self imo. On good/normal days he finds the 3rd much earlier, he doesn't miss so many irradiates, he attacks on multiple fronts (sends another dropship to the third). He must have a bad day or didn't prepare for such an event as diligently as usual. Action plays fine, but it's mostly Flash playing sloppy today. korean casters stating that it could be the by-product of game 2. thinking action is going all-in, and after scanning all the usual 3rd expo spots, just played safe. too safe. | ||
|
whaski
Finland576 Posts
Yeah not to take it from Action, the way he positions defliers and targets spells is work of art. | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
| ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:30 jjmmtt wrote: Anyone know that song that just played after Game 3? All Time Low - Sleeping In was outro. Digging this lowkey vibe pre-g4 now but no eng to google | ||
|
goody153
44033 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:33 konadora wrote: korean casters stating that it could be the by-product of game 2. thinking action is going all-in, and after scanning all the usual 3rd expo spots, just played safe. too safe. Ohh that's cool. Getting into the enemy head is a thing too. Actually it isnt even out of the box considering how Flash just looked seems like he is "playing not to lose" and not "playing to win" for the first 3 games. | ||
|
jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:35 Snorkels wrote: All Time Low - Sleeping In was outro. Digging this lowkey vibe pre-g4 now but no eng to google Not the outro song for Tasteless/Artosis, the song they played right as Flash GG'd. Edit: It's the power metal/stoner rock song (and I can't understand the lyrics ). | ||
|
Lambertus
South Africa965 Posts
| ||
|
whaski
Finland576 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
 | ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
| ||
|
Sorusaba
270 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
//Ok Action is dead. That was kwanro-esque... | ||
|
ShloobeR
Korea (South)3804 Posts
my god | ||
|
goody153
44033 Posts
| ||
|
Motivate
2860 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:44 ShloobeR wrote: That vulture just randomly turning back and seeing all those lings. my god That was pure luck! | ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:44 Motivate wrote: action is playing like jaedong, holy shit What, how? Or do you mean 2019/2020 Jaedong? | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
Highgamer
1383 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/enMxXYQ.jpg) | ||
|
Motivate
2860 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:45 Miragee wrote: What, how? Or do you mean 2019/2020 Jaedong? i mean the crazy, arguably over aggressive jaedong of recent times, yes | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:46 konadora wrote: yeah flash looks pissed LOL you think Flash thinks he didn't win this game, just that action lost for him? | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia12843 Posts
| ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
| ||
|
Cush
United States646 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
accidental starsense | ||
|
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
It was a dead end though? | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
If the vulture didn't turned around, Flash wouldn't spot the zerglings and maybe wouldn't defend so well or make another bunker | ||
|
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:47 Motivate wrote: i mean the crazy, arguably over aggressive jaedong of recent times, yes Jaedong always played like that. It just used to work better because his mechanics were so beyond anyone else. | ||
|
ShloobeR
Korea (South)3804 Posts
but that second ling attack probably should have done way more than it did | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
| ||
|
Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:47 prosatan wrote: It was! If the vulture didn't turned around, Flash wouldn't spot the zerglings and maybe wouldn't defend so well or make another bunker The vulture was in a dead-end. If anything flash scouted the dead end for hidden lings. It wasn't luck that the vulture turned around. | ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
action what are you doing ?! | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
BUT A FLOATING FACTORY... | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
AND THAT LING STOPS THE VULTURE OMG ACTION | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
| ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
| ||
|
Sorusaba
270 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
Edit: Every game I've seen on this map has been awful. | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
But Acion, come on! 12 hatch on a 2 player map ?!?! In game 5 ?!?!??!?!!? | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
NOOOOOOOO T_T | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On March 29 2020 20:28 goody153 wrote: How did game 3 end up at this point with Action having a massive lead against flash lategame ? Action's build gave him a fast third and allowed him to skip mutas and put all his gas into hive tech + upgrades. By the time Flash figured that out it was too late. | ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
he could have just contained and went for defiler tech... | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania7569 Posts
| ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
This was a strong showing for Action, wp. Flash just knows how to perform | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia12843 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
| ||
|
whaski
Finland576 Posts
| ||
|
Rainalcar
Croatia354 Posts
| ||
|
Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
you was very strong Z today | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Wtf Action, you still have 2 base vs 1 base Flash, You didn't need to rush up the ramp. Nah he was really far behind after losing that many drones, he had to try doing some damage. If he sits back irradiate kills his army and he loses anyway. | ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
| ||
|
Wonk
546 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:07 Rainalcar wrote: And this is a zerg map? Lol Yeah, no idea how this is a zerg map. Looks like the perfect terran map tbh. Turtle at home and then just to a deathball push down the middle. | ||
|
yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
| ||
|
VioleTAK
Israel4279 Posts
| ||
|
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
| ||
|
TornadoSteve
936 Posts
Flash looked shaky, not sure what else to say | ||
|
Rainalcar
Croatia354 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:06 konadora wrote: action just gave up towards the end lol he could have just contained and went for defiler tech... No way he got to defiler tech with that drone count and Flash already on 3 vessels. | ||
|
Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
Any one combinations would be an awesome finals. | ||
|
Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
GGs! | ||
|
whaski
Finland576 Posts
| ||
|
darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:11 Rainalcar wrote: Action defended the natural. He killed the first vulture with no losses. And yet it wasn't even close on this map. He let a gajillion Vultures in afterward, and lost a gajillion Drones. Normally “killed first Vulture with no losses” implies you stopped Vulture harass. Here the opposite happened. Silly to use first Vulture as reasoning for map balance here. You have more units to block by the time the second one comes. Action just didn’t, unfortunately. | ||
|
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
| ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:09 yoshi245 wrote: Action was playing flawlessly when it gets to late game. But Flash forcing Action to ditch a macro game and into his tempo for pre-mid game all-in style aggression. WP to both. Not quite true imo, Action went for early game all-ins most of the games (or at least get an advantage by doing a weird build). Action played it alright, but he knew straight up he'd be at a disadvantage. Flash didn't really do too much special except for the last map, but Action seemed to handle with that pretty well until the extended vult harass. | ||
|
darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:17 whaski wrote: Two-player maps favor terran? And hitchiker is very good for 8 rax into 1-1-1. It is so hard for zerg to defend everything. And suddently terran gets million vessels. Talking about map balance in a game where Zerg lets a bunch of Vultures into their main, and citing Vessels being made off one base to counter a Zerg that had no economy due to aforementioned Vultures, is showing you don’t understand what an unrepresentative outlier is. The map may or may not be T favored, but the reasons people are citing in this thread are terrible. You may as well talk about map balance for a game where one player started with three workers. | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On March 29 2020 19:57 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Sounds like ABBA to be honest. Dunno if this was answered but this is a lame power metal song https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/amberiandawn/goforaride.html but the riff is indeed exactly like mamma mia or something | ||
|
sixfour
England11061 Posts
| ||
|
darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:19 EsportsJohn wrote: Pretty disappointing series tbh. Action played some pretty great macro games in the first 3 sets, but Flash was making a lot of mistakes too. Last two games were just...straight throws. That’s too simple a way to look at those games. Game 4 maybe wasn’t a great game aesthetically, but it was not a throw. Action still would’ve won if Flash missed his lings for ~3 more seconds (even after the wasted early lings). This game is what Effort vs. Flash game 5 in 2010 OSL would’ve looked like if Flash caught Effort’s lings in that game. And that’s one of the most memorable games of all time. Sometimes games go down that way - if it works it’s legendary, and if it fails, it looks terrible. In game 5 Action held the Bunker rush perfectly and Flash even said he thought he was going to lose after he didn’t get the natural Hatch. He didn’t expect Flash to just force feed a second Vulture in, and that single misread cost him the game (since it led to Vulture snowball). If Action keeps two more lings at home to keep Vultures from being able to run through, he is in fantastic shape. I wonder if people complaining about game 5 have actually played TvZ. 8 rax (which already hurts your economy) that does minimal damage (I think he got zero Drones?) into one base play is a very unforgiving place to be economically. | ||
|
Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
i think Larva have more chances vs Flash than ZerO in 1/2 | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:24 darktreb wrote: That’s too simple a way to look at those games. Game 4 maybe wasn’t a great game aesthetically, but it was not a throw. Action still would’ve won if Flash missed his lings for ~3 more seconds (even after the wasted early lings). This game is what Effort vs. Flash game 5 in 2010 OSL would’ve looked like if Flash caught Effort’s lings in that game. And that’s one of the most memorable games of all time. Sometimes games go down that way - if it works it’s legendary, and if it fails, it looks terrible. Might have won, I don't think he would've died to the lings, no matter if he scouted it or not. He already had quite a few goliaths and marines, yea the lings would've dealt damage but I doubt it would have been game-ending. | ||
|
jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
| ||
|
Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:17 whaski wrote: Two-player maps favor terran? And hitchiker is very good for 8 rax into 1-1-1. It is so hard for zerg to defend everything. And suddently terran gets million vessels. Action had that 100% defended then he ran away with his lings and let the second vulture in. It was at that moment he pretty much lost the game. | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:32 jjmmtt wrote: Great series ruined by an awful map game 5. I literally don't see how any player in the world is supposed to kill Flash on that map. You can't hide anything and you can't surround anything. Poor excuse, he could've banned it if he didnt like it. | ||
|
darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:25 Sonic_md wrote: what do you think about semifinal in left part? i think Larva have more chances vs Flash than ZerO in 1/2 I don’t think Larva can beat Flash under any circumstances. Weirdly, I think Action is better suited to play Flash than Zero is, even though Zero is the better player. Zero hasn’t shown that he has the chutzpah needed to beat Flash in ZvT. Pure skill alone has never been enough to beat Flash in ZvT. Zerg has to win mind games and have a flare for the moment. Effort is the master of this, obviously. Jaedong has showed it as well (ASL2 Jaedong was the last great Jaedong series). Action showed he has it today. Zero has never showed this, but hopefully Action’s play inspires him to go out of his playstyle he’s comfortable with. Zero once said he didn’t even practice for his MSL final against Flash because he felt there was no way he could win. That mindset can never beat Flash. Again, hopefully Action inspires him (and hopefully Zero beats Larva). Larva does have some chutzpah but he’s probably a bit too lacking in overall skill for that to be enough. | ||
|
darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:29 Kaolla wrote: Might have won, I don't think he would've died to the lings, no matter if he scouted it or not. He already had quite a few goliaths and marines, yea the lings would've dealt damage but I doubt it would have been game-ending. You’re right, not a sure thing Action wins. However, if those two Goliaths are sitting in the main waiting for Mutas and those lings wipe out the Bunker in the blink of an eye, at minimum Flash loses a bunch of Marines and other stuff in the natural, and at minimum Flash loses control of his natural for a bit. Suddenly it doesn’t look like a “throw” but rather a game where Action is at least ahead (Mutas were on the way, after all, just one to two waves of production later than Flash expected thanks to the ling flood). | ||
|
jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:33 Kaolla wrote: Poor excuse, he could've banned it if he didnt like it. It isn't an excuse, what am I excusing? It's my opinion on the series. Yeah I guess he could have banned it? Then you're not banning something else. And that map could also not have been the 5th map or even in the map pool to begin with. I've only seen terrible games on that map tbh. | ||
|
Rainalcar
Croatia354 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:33 Qikz wrote: Action had that 100% defended then he ran away with his lings and let the second vulture in. It was at that moment he pretty much lost the game. A map where the zerg is expected to make 3! perfect moves in a row to stay afloat is not a good map imo. Even if Action managed to do all this, I still give Flash almost 50% chance to win with a push. | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1706 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:09 yoshi245 wrote: Action was playing flawlessly when it gets to late game. But Flash forcing Action to ditch a macro game and into his tempo for pre-mid game all-in style aggression. WP to both. I feel that it is almost the other way around. The two games action won, it was early ling aggression that put him in a position to get into a strong late game. GGs well played | ||
|
whaski
Finland576 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:21 darktreb wrote: Talking about map balance in a game where Zerg lets a bunch of Vultures into their main, and citing Vessels being made off one base to counter a Zerg that had no economy due to aforementioned Vultures, is showing you don’t understand what an unrepresentative outlier is. The map may or may not be T favored, but the reasons people are citing in this thread are terrible. You may as well talk about map balance for a game where one player started with three workers. Well I disagree the notion that Action let it happen, its more about Flash being Flash alongside the fact that Hitchiker is hard map to zvt. I was more citing balance towards very lategame aka Kespa-era. | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:38 jjmmtt wrote: It isn't an excuse, what am I excusing? It's my opinion on the series. Yeah I guess he could have banned it? Then you're not banning something else. And that map could also not have been the 5th map or even in the map pool to begin with. I've only seen terrible games on that map tbh. I think its hard to form an opinion on just a few games (I've seen on that map). Fact is that Artosis already said 8rax was quite popular, yet Action still went for a somewhat greedy opening, in the end it kinda evened out cause Flash lost 2 bunkers and marines, but yea, had he just gone overpool or pool first, he would've probably been in a better spot and also would've dealt with the harass afterwards better. I mean he obviously knew the factory was there because he stopped the first vult without any problems, then messed up with the ones after that. He knew they were probably still coming, since he left his hydra (and second hydra) there. It was just a player error. He was up 2 bases to 1, he knew as long as he wouldnt take too much dmg he'd probably be at least ok, but he still moved his lings for no real reason? I don't think you can really blame this on the map. | ||
|
whaski
Finland576 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:45 whaski wrote: Well I disagree the notion that Action let it happen, its more about Flash being Flash alongside the fact that Hitchiker is hard map to zvt. I was more citing balance towards very lategame aka Kespa-era. Actually found a pretty good example of lategame tvz why this is good map for terran. Still, the way how Flash picked Action apart with vultures and frontal attack was something else. | ||
|
JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
| ||
|
Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
It's somewhat lucky, in that if he see the lings any later hes toast but it's definitely not random...he knows action is behind due to drone count and is verifying one of the tactics that could hurt him...more lings | ||
|
RKC
2847 Posts
On March 29 2020 23:00 Brainojack wrote: Flash's vulture scout in game 4 reminds me of his scan of soulkey's gaurdians in ASL3 ro4. It's somewhat lucky, in that if he see the lings any later hes toast but it's definitely not random...he knows action is behind due to drone count and is verifying one of the tactics that could hurt him...more lings The vulture was placed in an odd nook with a dead-end. I presume its only purpose is to scout incoming attacks? Yeah, I remember that match against Soulkey. Seems incredibly lucky, but Flash must've smelt something fishy and acted on his suspicions. Ultimately, one lucky scout is luck, twice (or more) is star-sense  | ||
|
mierin
United States4943 Posts
On March 29 2020 22:41 JoinTheRain wrote: Pretty entertaining set of games today, imo. All in all - the better prepared for the series advances which seems fair. I am excited for the other matches as well. I love this ASL, feels like the best one since the one effort took. When does effort leave the army btw? That's my question as well! I could watch a bo99 with him vs. Flash and not leave my seat. | ||
|
kogeT
Poland2030 Posts
| ||
|
VioleTAK
Israel4279 Posts
On March 29 2020 23:17 RKC wrote: The vulture was placed in an odd nook with a dead-end. I presume its only purpose is to scout incoming attacks? Yeah, I remember that match against Soulkey. Seems incredibly lucky, but Flash must've smelt something fishy and acted on his suspicions. Ultimately, one lucky scout is luck, twice (or more) is star-sense Exactly His sense is leagues beyond anyone else, like a whole other evolution.Remember Game3 vs Snow in the finals? There was a moment where he pulled out 2 tanks 1 second before a counterattack arrived, without any scan, just pure 'knowing'. Here it is, chills moment at 2:03:20, you have to see the couple minutes leading to it to appreciate it though, he was seriously behind. He later reviewed the games in his channel, and jinjin translated it, so you can see what Flash says about people going crazy of him knowing to pickup the tanks here at 4:50. He is just something else. | ||
|
RKC
2847 Posts
| ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19176 Posts
| ||
|
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19176 Posts
On March 30 2020 00:05 RKC wrote: What was the idea behind Flash's unorthodox build in G1? Map-specific? To throw Action off? Reactive to Action's build (or at least, what he assumed was Action's build)? Can anyone shed some light? The build was a great build, but he was way out of place for the first muta attack and lost 10-12 SCVs. You didn't get to see it kick as s because of that. It's a legit macro build kind of like SK terran, but with goliath first. | ||
|
RKC
2847 Posts
On March 30 2020 00:09 BisuDagger wrote: The build was a great build, but he was way out of place for the first must attack and lost 10-12 SCVs. You didn't get to see it kick as s because of that. It's a legit macro build kind of like SK terran, but with goliath first. Yeah, Tastosis were all excited about the build initially. So it's an anti-muta build - which meant he reacted well to Action's build? Just botched the timing/execution? Any vids of past games? | ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
On March 30 2020 00:07 BisuDagger wrote: Flash definitely showed some weaknesses in his game management. I hope that doesn't come from wrist pain. Honestly looked like mental issues. He looked much sharper in G4 and 5 after he had taken those short breaks - to focus I assume. | ||
|
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 30 2020 00:09 BisuDagger wrote: The build was a great build, but he was way out of place for the first muta attack and lost 10-12 SCVs. You didn't get to see it kick as s because of that. It's a legit macro build kind of like SK terran, but with goliath first. Sorry did it earlier in the tournament and pulled it off very well. It is kind of an interesting build because it forces 2-hatch muta with the factory opening and then takes advantage of the later lurker/hive tech because of the gas/larva expended in mutas. The goliaths with range can easily prevent the mutas from kiting the marines as they walk across the map and prevent the Zerg from delaying the 3rd base push like they normally do. | ||
|
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
Just in the interest of fairness, let's make the map pool Longinus Monty Hall Andromeda Matchpoint Fighting Spirit Neo Python, because those are totally fine maps for Z to play on. FlaSh is literally the only Bonjwa who had maps become easier for their race rather than harder. The reason Jaedong was never called a bonjwa despite having the stats to be called one was because the maps he played on made it super easy to play the only style of ZvT he knew how to play, and as soon as he had to cast dark swarms or burrow lurkers he "went into a slump". | ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
On March 30 2020 01:16 r33k wrote: Yeah guys let's have the finals on Hitchhiker, what a well balanced map to have Z play T. Just in the interest of fairness, let's make the map pool Longinus Monty Hall Andromeda Matchpoint Fighting Spirit Neo Python, because those are totally fine maps for Z to play on. FlaSh is literally the only Bonjwa who had maps become easier for their race rather than harder. The reason Jaedong was never called a bonjwa despite having the stats to be called one was because the maps he played on made it super easy to play the only style of ZvT he knew how to play, and as soon as he had to cast dark swarms or burrow lurkers he "went into a slump". I have no idea what point this post is trying to make. It's all over the place. | ||
|
LML
Germany1751 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On March 30 2020 02:08 LML wrote: Can the thread titles be set as spoiler? Or just be spoiler free? Not everyone has finished watching Ro16 yet Done, but also after 2 days or so you cannot hold us accountable for spoilers | ||
Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
| ||
|
ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
| ||
|
outscar
2832 Posts
| ||
|
Disregard
China10252 Posts
| ||
|
winson
China138 Posts
Game 4: that vulture scout was not luck at all. I think Flash was checking if there was a lurker all in, because he already knew action had more lings than usual. That was the lurker morphing timing. And zerg normally do it behind terran's third. Game 5: I felt Flash could take action's natural if he put 2 marines in each banker instead of put 4 in one banker. That way it would be much easier for him to send 2 rines into 2nd banker when 1st one down. He might not lose that 2 rines during transfer banker, then all lings would die, game would end right there. | ||
|
TornadoSteve
936 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:24 darktreb wrote: That’s too simple a way to look at those games. Game 4 maybe wasn’t a great game aesthetically, but it was not a throw. Action still would’ve won if Flash missed his lings for ~3 more seconds (even after the wasted early lings). This game is what Effort vs. Flash game 5 in 2010 OSL would’ve looked like if Flash caught Effort’s lings in that game. And that’s one of the most memorable games of all time. Sometimes games go down that way - if it works it’s legendary, and if it fails, it looks terrible. In game 5 Action held the Bunker rush perfectly and Flash even said he thought he was going to lose after he didn’t get the natural Hatch. He didn’t expect Flash to just force feed a second Vulture in, and that single misread cost him the game (since it led to Vulture snowball). If Action keeps two more lings at home to keep Vultures from being able to run through, he is in fantastic shape. I wonder if people complaining about game 5 have actually played TvZ. 8 rax (which already hurts your economy) that does minimal damage (I think he got zero Drones?) into one base play is a very unforgiving place to be economically. Unless you dont play brood war, or perhaps protoss and protoss only, you are not allowed to make a post like that. This is so wrong on so many level its painful to read | ||
|
RKC
2847 Posts
On March 30 2020 10:30 TornadoSteve wrote: Unless you dont play brood war, or perhaps protoss and protoss only, you are not allowed to make a post like that. This is so wrong on so many level its painful to read How is he wrong? Can you explain? Not that I'm challenging you, or siding with darktreb. I'm just a noob as well, but I thought he made some compelling points. Just curious to know your counter-points. | ||
|
TornadoSteve
936 Posts
Say what you want, i think the whole series (except game#4) is all about build orders. Even if Flash survived longer than any other terran would have in both his losses, Action came with a well prepared plan to secure a 3rd while forcing terran to defend his base in both g1 and 3.* What im trying to say is that the 8rax followed by pressure from 2 sides on a small 2 players map like Hitchiker resulted in Action not being able to drones up (while losing some more despite poor Flash micro, compared to what hes capable of), had to make units from 2 hatchery while his timing was already off due to the amount of lings he has to made to save his natural. From there, it was a build order win imo. What i dont understand is Action's choice to 12 hatch on Hitchiker. *I believe the first one who did a similar build on stage, at least in ASL, was Killer against Mong(!?) on FS, when baxter(11) took the 7 main super quickly while forcing terran(1) to turrets while zoning with zerglings, switching to lurkers before mutal. | ||
|
TornadoSteve
936 Posts
| ||
|
mcgormack
51 Posts
... it's got to happen to some players sometimes, right? More seriously, I really gained a lot of respect for Action in this tournament. He has improved quite a lot since the last year, it probably also helps that the Zerg competition is much narrower this year. | ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On March 29 2020 21:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Wtf Action, you still have 2 base vs 1 base Flash, You didn't need to rush up the ramp. Action gave up because had 12 drones or so and no way to cope with the constant Irradiates that would come from Flash’s vessels. Flash had two vessels and it was just going to snowball. You can’t beat irradiate when you’re still on lair tech with that weak an economy. It made sense to me that he’d risk an all-in attack before the vessel cloud got out of hand. | ||
|
RKC
2847 Posts
His risky 12-hatch build was to counter... some equally daring unorthodox build of Flash? I don't know myself, but does anyone have some theory? Even without the hatch expo kill, Action looked kinda dead (or massively at a disadvantage). Terran can easily keep up the harass and snowball to victory from 1 base. Am I correct in thinking so? | ||
|
HybridSpawn
12 Posts
| ||
|
darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On March 30 2020 12:08 RKC wrote: Let's give Action the benefit of doubt in G5. They're former KT members, and team kills throw out all kinds of mind games that we as viewers may not be aware of. His risky 12-hatch build was to counter... some equally daring unorthodox build of Flash? I don't know myself, but does anyone have some theory? Even without the hatch expo kill, Action looked kinda dead (or massively at a disadvantage). Terran can easily keep up the harass and snowball to victory from 1 base. Am I correct in thinking so? How does Terran just “keep up the snowball” in a game where T even lost the first Vulture? It’s not like Action had less units to defend after stopping the first Vulture. Entire TvZs can get decided by a Vulture getting in. Sure, it’s hard to block in some situations, but it’s still doable and just not supposed to happen, similar to how Sunken busts aren’t supposed to happen but if they do happen it’s GG. Letting a Vulture in is all that matters in certain game types (certainly in low econ games). Similar to how Flash losing the first Vulture in an earlier game affected things a lot. All this analysis of a game *after* Vultures that didn’t have to get in were let in is misguided. Yes, once the first Vulture gets in, it’s hard to stop it and stop the second. That’s why you just can’t let a Vulture in, plain and simple (and again, the first Vulture was blocked, so it’s not like it is impossible to keep one from getting in). | ||
|
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
I'm eagerly awaiting the day where Flash produces strategic innovations with Protoss or Zerg. | ||
Ideas
United States8068 Posts
Trying to think of who realistically stands a chance of taking down flash. Maybe zero since Ro4 is "only" a Bo5, whereas I just dont see anyone on the other side ever beating flash in a Bo7 haha. stork is a choker, bisu's pvt isn't as good as rain or snow (who both got destroyed last season), light is great but still totally outclassed by flash, soma sorta a wildcard? Not sure what his spon-match record is vs flash, I assume not great. But he's still relatively a rookie and maybe a finals match vs flash is just what he needs to kickstart a fire in him? | ||
|
[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
It seems to me like Flash lost G1 and G3 from leaving his vessels exposed. Like he was always focused on something else and left them open to scourge. Of course the games he won didn't get to vessel tech. Coincidence? | ||
|
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
2. Speaking of Neo Sylphid, Action got a 7:30 hive holy fuck. His initial ling attack did so much damage, you can see that he takes great care of his few lings left and lurkers knowing that they are his only defense against a bio attack. At the time that he's teching to hive, he literally has 3 drones in his natural, and they're mining gas. The delay of Flash's army is so unreal. 3. Game 4 is actually very interesting. While on the surface it looks like Action just went for a failed ling allin that was badly executed, it was actually just Flash massively outplaying him. So many questions plagued me while watching this. Why did Action dive the bunker with his first set of lings? Was Flash's scout of the followup an accident? What was the vulture doing throughout all of this? The series of events is as follows: Flash's SCV sees the drone going out to the 3rd then notices that Action makes a 3rd hatch in his base. The SCV is then killed in the main just out of vision of the spire starting, so he follows up with a vulture scout, which immediately runs to the 3rd base to confirm if Action is playing a crazy 4 hatch opening with a hidden base. The observer didn't catch it, but Flash actually sees the first set of lings in Action's natural with his vulture and sends it all the way the fuck back home. Action, thinking he's being clever with his movement, runs all the way around the map to avoid the vulture that should be in the middle of the map looking for lings, checking the 3rd, etc. Thinking he's outsmarted the vulture and seeing only a single goliath out front, Action makes the decision to all-in the bunker so that his followup lings can run it down...BUT surprise, there's a vulture there too. This moment is INCREDIBLY close (like less than 100 HP), but the extra DPS from the vulture prevents the bunker from going down. Following this failed attack, Flash assumes one of three things: either his opponent is making mutalisks or going for a followup attack with lings or lurkers (because he never scouts the tech, and his academy is hella late with the goliath build. There's no need to scout for a 3rd since Action can't afford it, so the vulture just does some light scouting around his natural to clear out stray lings and/or check for any followup attacks. THIS PART IS NOT LUCK. After that, the game was pretty much over. I wish Action had stayed in the game a little later, maybe taken a hidden 3rd or something, but I think when he saw the goliaths and marine counts already high, he knew he couldn't hold or delay a followup attack for long enough to get a 3rd up AND saturate his mineral lines AND get his tech up to defend. There just wasn't enough going for him at that point, and the double bunker up front meant that a bust wasn't an option. Well played by Flash, god tier read. 4. Game 5 was also very weird. Action's defense against the bunker rush was...odd. Had Flash made the first bunker in range of the ramp, it woulda been an insta-gg, and even the way it did go was really a knife's edge defense. Instead Action beat it with 0 drone losses, so it was really really good for him. Skill I guess? The followup defense was super sick from Action catching the first vulture while scouting down mid with a ling. After the initial defense, he decides to pull all of his lings to pressure Flash's ramp (which only had a few marines) while defending any vulture shenanigans with the hydras. And honestly, it was really close again, but there was a gap in the hydras, and Flash took advantage of it. From there, Flash just honestly outplayed the hell out of Action and gained such a huge worker advantage that it didn't even matter how many advantages Action got out of the first 4 minutes. I still think that Flash played subpar in the first set of games, especially in the late game, but the overall series was very high level. Action played some really immense games, and the ones he lost were honestly just a hair's breadth from going the other way. Sorry I called it trash. | ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Game 1 Flash had to worry about a speedling bust after losing his vulture, and he built multiple bunkers to be safe, but the bust never came. Then he was preparing against mutas, but instead of building a big pack of mutas, Action just built 3 mutas and then droned up on 3 bases. When Flash was ready to fight, Action’s army was bigger and more upgraded than Flash was ready to deal with. Basically Flash was tricked into taking an overly defensive/slow approach in the hopes of an unbeatable midgame, but by macroing at the right time, Action beat the unbeatable midgame. (The biomech push is all about having an unbeatable midgame.) Game 3, Flash seemed to still be thinking about Game 2, where he crushed a Lurker all-in. Game 3 he scanned the hydra den and then turtled up. But again, the aggression didn’t come and instead Action was expanding and teching rapidly. It took Flash forever to find that third base. Action won those “macro” games because, through trickery, he entering the “macro” phase of the games with a huge advantage. (Edit: and his execution was good. Flash beats you from a disadvantage if your execution is faulty.) Again, nobody ever tricks Flash, but Action managed. It was a really impressive series. | ||
|
KobraKay
Portugal4216 Posts
| ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On March 31 2020 04:29 Djabanete wrote: Flash lost games 1 and 3 (“lost the macro games”) because at key moments he thought Action would hit him with aggression or an all-in, and Action macroed instead. Action faked him out. The reason it looked like Flash “played badly” is that nobody ever fakes Flash out. Well, this is what it looks like. Game 1 Flash had to worry about a speedling bust after losing his vulture, and he built multiple bunkers to be safe, but the bust never came. Then he was preparing against mutas, but instead of building a big pack of mutas, Action just built 3 mutas and then droned up on 3 bases. When Flash was ready to fight, Action’s army was bigger and more upgraded than Flash was ready to deal with. Basically Flash was tricked into taking an overly defensive/slow approach in the hopes of an unbeatable midgame, but by macroing at the right time, Action beat the unbeatable midgame. (The biomech push is all about having an unbeatable midgame.) Game 3, Flash seemed to still be thinking about Game 2, where he crushed a Lurker all-in. Game 3 he scanned the hydra den and then turtled up. But again, the aggression didn’t come and instead Action was expanding and teching rapidly. It took Flash forever to find that third base. Action won those “macro” games because, through trickery, he entering the “macro” phase of the games with a huge advantage. (Edit: and his execution was good. Flash beats you from a disadvantage if your execution is faulty.) Again, nobody ever tricks Flash, but Action managed. It was a really impressive series. Pretty much. This was a great series precisely because of just how well Action mind gamed Flash in those macro games he won. Like, no one can deny that flash losing some vessels in those games seemed a bit sloppy, but I think it's precisely because Action was doing a lot of stuff at once. I too like john noticed how he constantly moved his lurkers back and forth, did surrounds etc... He played really really well and his plans in game 1 and 3 worked as he planned. Game 5 left a sour taste though. Not to say it was undeserved, but it felt like Action should've been better with his vulture defense after he killed the first one yet he allowed like 4 to get in and his drone count got hammered. I feel like he should've just gotten a third hydra and made a wall. Vultures won't get in at all and you'll get regen too. That would've given him enough time to drone up etc... 2 base zerg vs 1 base terran could've went into his advantage with solid muta micro or w/e he decided >< | ||
|
darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On March 31 2020 04:29 Djabanete wrote: Flash lost games 1 and 3 (“lost the macro games”) because at key moments he thought Action would hit him with aggression or an all-in, and Action macroed instead. Action faked him out. The reason it looked like Flash “played badly” is that nobody ever fakes Flash out. Well, this is what it looks like. Game 1 Flash had to worry about a speedling bust after losing his vulture, and he built multiple bunkers to be safe, but the bust never came. Then he was preparing against mutas, but instead of building a big pack of mutas, Action just built 3 mutas and then droned up on 3 bases. When Flash was ready to fight, Action’s army was bigger and more upgraded than Flash was ready to deal with. Basically Flash was tricked into taking an overly defensive/slow approach in the hopes of an unbeatable midgame, but by macroing at the right time, Action beat the unbeatable midgame. (The biomech push is all about having an unbeatable midgame.) Game 3, Flash seemed to still be thinking about Game 2, where he crushed a Lurker all-in. Game 3 he scanned the hydra den and then turtled up. But again, the aggression didn’t come and instead Action was expanding and teching rapidly. It took Flash forever to find that third base. Action won those “macro” games because, through trickery, he entering the “macro” phase of the games with a huge advantage. (Edit: and his execution was good. Flash beats you from a disadvantage if your execution is faulty.) Again, nobody ever tricks Flash, but Action managed. It was a really impressive series. Action did something only Effort has consistently managed to do in the past. He used Flash's strength against him. Flash is so reliably good at reading situations that this is *almost* a weakness if used perfectly against him. This is obviously much easier said than done. In some ways, I think Effort's most impressive game was his Proleague win over Flash *after* Effort had recently beat Flash 3-2 in OSL. That was the game on Fighting Spirit where Effort tricks Flash into expecting a Lurker all-in, since everyone still considered Flash the better "standard" or "macro" player in spite of the OSL win (Effort's wins were short games). Effort made an early Hydra Den (which Flash saw, possibly set up deliberately), and positioned things like he was prepping an all-in bust. Flash made extra Bunkers and hunkered down. Instead, Effort went Hive and got up three bases without making a Lurker (of course he made Lurkers later, but he got to this insanely advantageous position through mindgames, just like Action did in this series). I think Action had an additional advantage which is he was such an underdog that it caused Flash to be even more cautious. Multiple players have literally given up *before* the series against Flash starts, either by playing stupidly standard (which will never beat Flash) or throwing ridiculous gambler type all-ins. It wasn't clear until midway through game 1 that Action was definitely not in this category, and by game 3 it was clear that Action was feeling a puncher's chance. When a Zerg feels a puncher's chance, they are more dangerous than any other race feeling the same way. When people ask "why don't pros just make an extra Bunker every time" or "why not just make one more Cannon", show them games 1 and 3 of this series (I think even the effective Muta counter in game 1 was partly enabled by Flash being a tad behind on timings). Fellow pros are so good that even the best player of all time can't consistently get away with being too conservative. | ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
I’m inclined to agree, it looked a bit like Flash thought that Action would feel forced to be highly aggressive by his position as an underdog, and that if he (Flash) could just weather the storm, he’d win. Action found the counter to that approach. But to keep the fear alive, he had to actually be aggressive in some games, which cost him... As for Flash losing vessels, maybe (?) he could have been more careful, but Flash has always prioritized irradiating defilers in the middle of the map before they reach his expansions. If he’s at a disadvantage in ground forces it’s hard for the vessels to do that job without sometimes getting sniped. The key is to keep the Dark Swarm as far away from the expansion as possible, and if a vessel kills a defiler and then trades for two scourges, I guess that’s not too awful (?). | ||
Sigrun
United States1654 Posts
On March 31 2020 07:35 darktreb wrote: In some ways, I think Effort's most impressive game was his Proleague win over Flash *after* Effort had recently beat Flash 3-2 in OSL. That was the game on Fighting Spirit where Effort tricks Flash into expecting a Lurker all-in, since everyone still considered Flash the better "standard" or "macro" player in spite of the OSL win (Effort's wins were short games). Effort made an early Hydra Den (which Flash saw, possibly set up deliberately), and positioned things like he was prepping an all-in bust. Flash made extra Bunkers and hunkered down. Do you happen to have a link to the VOD of this game? | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1706 Posts
On March 31 2020 09:29 Sigrun wrote: Do you happen to have a link to the VOD of this game? I remember that game. It went far and the end game was similar to the recent flash vs calm game 3 in ever osl (which flash won). But effort got such a nice advantage from the trick that flash couldnt pull off a win. | ||
|
RKC
2847 Posts
On March 31 2020 09:21 Djabanete wrote: >> darktreb wrote: Action was such an underdog that Flash was too cautious I’m inclined to agree, it looked a bit like Flash thought that Action would feel forced to be highly aggressive by his position as an underdog, and that if he (Flash) could just weather the storm, he’d win. Action found the counter to that approach. But to keep the fear alive, he had to actually be aggressive in some games, which cost him... As for Flash losing vessels, maybe (?) he could have been more careful, but Flash has always prioritized irradiating defilers in the middle of the map before they reach his expansions. If he’s at a disadvantage in ground forces it’s hard for the vessels to do that job without sometimes getting sniped. The key is to keep the Dark Swarm as far away from the expansion as possible, and if a vessel kills a defiler and then trades for two scourges, I guess that’s not too awful (?). I watched the Flash v Action game in the preview: tl.net And that's exactly what Flash did. Just kept up the defiler-sniping to the point his vessels kept being killed and plagued. Honestly, it looked to me like Action was having the upper hand throughout the game. Action kept pounding Flash's bases, and macro up rather safely. Flash could barely destroy any of the Zerg expo bases. Flash's composition and engagements look rather sub-optimal, at least to my untrained eye (saving energy for d-matrix seems better?). And yet, Flash manages to hold on, and wins. I guess that's one of them Flash things... | ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
| ||
|
outscar
2832 Posts
| ||
|
konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
On March 31 2020 09:29 Sigrun wrote: Do you happen to have a link to the VOD of this game? | ||
|
Miragee
8456 Posts
On March 30 2020 11:59 mcgormack wrote: My (fun and not very serious) personal theory on why Flash lost two games today and didn't play at his best capacity : He had sudden needs to go to the bathroom, and that's why he instantly and oddly got up and left after some/every game. ... it's got to happen to some players sometimes, right? More seriously, I really gained a lot of respect for Action in this tournament. He has improved quite a lot since the last year, it probably also helps that the Zerg competition is much narrower this year. If you look at what Flash usually drinks during matches...no. This guy has a massive bladder. | ||
|
Rucho
United States124 Posts
Flash seemed shaken, but that doesn't mean that his skill level isn't what it was. Action successfully threw Flash off his rhythm. If it wasn't for Flash's superhuman ability to reset and adapt, he probably would have lost the series. I was pretty disappointed by flash's game on neo sylphid. I feel like it would have been pretty easy for him to scout that there was hardly any defense at the third. I assumed the dropship play was to hit the third. But perhaps flash thought that was too obvious, and so instead went for the elevator play to the main. I think the game would have been his if he had busted the lurker at the front or double dropped from the ledge. | ||
|
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On March 31 2020 04:20 EsportsJohn wrote: I take it back, it was a good series. Further analysis revealed some pretty awesome stuff.
2. Speaking of Neo Sylphid, Action got a 7:30 hive holy fuck. His initial ling attack did so much damage, you can see that he takes great care of his few lings left and lurkers knowing that they are his only defense against a bio attack. At the time that he's teching to hive, he literally has 3 drones in his natural, and they're mining gas. The delay of Flash's army is so unreal. 3. Game 4 is actually very interesting. While on the surface it looks like Action just went for a failed ling allin that was badly executed, it was actually just Flash massively outplaying him. So many questions plagued me while watching this. Why did Action dive the bunker with his first set of lings? Was Flash's scout of the followup an accident? What was the vulture doing throughout all of this? The series of events is as follows: Flash's SCV sees the drone going out to the 3rd then notices that Action makes a 3rd hatch in his base. The SCV is then killed in the main just out of vision of the spire starting, so he follows up with a vulture scout, which immediately runs to the 3rd base to confirm if Action is playing a crazy 4 hatch opening with a hidden base. The observer didn't catch it, but Flash actually sees the first set of lings in Action's natural with his vulture and sends it all the way the fuck back home. Action, thinking he's being clever with his movement, runs all the way around the map to avoid the vulture that should be in the middle of the map looking for lings, checking the 3rd, etc. Thinking he's outsmarted the vulture and seeing only a single goliath out front, Action makes the decision to all-in the bunker so that his followup lings can run it down...BUT surprise, there's a vulture there too. This moment is INCREDIBLY close (like less than 100 HP), but the extra DPS from the vulture prevents the bunker from going down. Following this failed attack, Flash assumes one of three things: either his opponent is making mutalisks or going for a followup attack with lings or lurkers (because he never scouts the tech, and his academy is hella late with the goliath build. There's no need to scout for a 3rd since Action can't afford it, so the vulture just does some light scouting around his natural to clear out stray lings and/or check for any followup attacks. THIS PART IS NOT LUCK. After that, the game was pretty much over. I wish Action had stayed in the game a little later, maybe taken a hidden 3rd or something, but I think when he saw the goliaths and marine counts already high, he knew he couldn't hold or delay a followup attack for long enough to get a 3rd up AND saturate his mineral lines AND get his tech up to defend. There just wasn't enough going for him at that point, and the double bunker up front meant that a bust wasn't an option. Well played by Flash, god tier read. 4. Game 5 was also very weird. Action's defense against the bunker rush was...odd. Had Flash made the first bunker in range of the ramp, it woulda been an insta-gg, and even the way it did go was really a knife's edge defense. Instead Action beat it with 0 drone losses, so it was really really good for him. Skill I guess? The followup defense was super sick from Action catching the first vulture while scouting down mid with a ling. After the initial defense, he decides to pull all of his lings to pressure Flash's ramp (which only had a few marines) while defending any vulture shenanigans with the hydras. And honestly, it was really close again, but there was a gap in the hydras, and Flash took advantage of it. From there, Flash just honestly outplayed the hell out of Action and gained such a huge worker advantage that it didn't even matter how many advantages Action got out of the first 4 minutes. I still think that Flash played subpar in the first set of games, especially in the late game, but the overall series was very high level. Action played some really immense games, and the ones he lost were honestly just a hair's breadth from going the other way. Sorry I called it trash. Damn that was a good analysis. I'd be very interested in reading more of your post-game analyses. IMO I'm more interested in post-game analyses than a preview, not that previews are bad, but post-game analyses are a lot more educational and allows me to further appreciate the games I had just watched. | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On April 03 2020 00:14 JieXian wrote: Damn that was a good analysis. I'd be very interested in reading more of your post-game analyses. IMO I'm more interested in post-game analyses than a preview, not that previews are bad, but post-game analyses are a lot more educational and allows me to further appreciate the games I had just watched. Indeed it was great read. There are usually recaps at the beginning of the previews you mention. The previous to last one featured an amazing article of the Stork v Larva Ro16 series, I'd recommend you that as well if you've liked this: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/557939-asl9-ro16-preview-pt-2-apocalypse-now | ||
|
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On April 04 2020 05:25 PVJ wrote: Indeed it was great read. There are usually recaps at the beginning of the previews you mention. The previous to last one featured an amazing article of the Stork v Larva Ro16 series, I'd recommend you that as well if you've liked this: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/557939-asl9-ro16-preview-pt-2-apocalypse-now Thanks ^^ | ||
| ||
Afreeca Starleague Season 9![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/424.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/626.jpg)
